Democracy - is it that great?

[DaNatural]

might sound crazy but i know we are always chanting and shouting about democracy, but lets face it the majority of the public is how can i put this, uneducated. The majority of people always seem to be constantly electing our current politicians, now unless we can radically change the education system and get people to understand the issues, i think democracy is worthless. majority of people usually vote for the politician who will satisfy their own short term interests, most voters dont take into account whatt is best for society on the whole. to sum it up the majority of the people often dont know shit, now im not willing to stand behind a government that has been elected by a bunch of people who basically dont understand anything. people who want tax cuts to hoard all their money in order to buy a big screen tv, i think government should be controlled and decided on by a large governing body, individuals who are properly educated, in sociology, psychology and philosophy people who know what is best for the people and will make proper decisions based on what is right not on what makes money. peace.

[martinmc]

who decides on the construction of the large governing body?

[DaNatural]

good question, like i said, it will be made up of individuals educated in the right areas, i suppose the people who are highly educated in these fields would make the decision on who makes up the body. i dont want this idea to sound like a dictatorship but one that is in the benefit of the people. if you've ever read plato's republic it is based lightly on his idea. peace

[Freiheit]

Da Natural, you system is even worse than democracy.
democracy is not perfect, but it is still the most effective
system.
education: usually you must be 18 to vote, with 18 you
had a certain degrade of education, because you have
to go to school.
by the way, non educated people are not dumm, maybe
they dont know how certain things work, but they are still humans, you talk how if you were better than them.
maybe they only care about their own future and not about their children, but thats their right. it is bad and
makes me mad, but we dont have the right to make them to 'worse humans'.

[DaNatural]

at 18 most people have education? u give credit to the public school system? public education is a joke it does not educate us on proper issues, all we know about mathematics and other courses on how to make a profit. we are not taught to be altruistic individuals. clearly people who are not educated on proper matters should not be ruling countries nor should they be voting on them. one of ontarios premiers, the late mike harris, when asked of his favorite book said he liked the hardy boy novels. that is not the novel of choice for someone who has to make decisions about the welfare of lots of people. also i did not say, that these people are dumb, but they are not exactly knowledgable on what is of importance when making decisions on a country. also they are not worse human beings, however they shouldnt be allowed to be passing judgement on certain issues that only benefit them. peace

[Freiheit]

when are you educated?
in my school i learnt twice how the swiss political system works, i know it very good. now i am in canada (for 4 moth), i learnt in school the same thing, how the canadian political system works. it know it almost perfect.
who descides who is educated? you?

a little educated group rules over the uneducated, stupid people which cant protect themself of the other class.
thats oligarchy and you found a new class, a class of 'educated, intelligent, better' human beings.

after the french revolution only educated, rich, male persons were allowed to vote, the result was ultra-liberalism and hardcore-capitalism.

even people, who dont know how the political system works, have their opinions and dreams and if the dont have them, education wont change anything.
do i have to be educated to be a communist?
no, humans think hours every day, maybe they think:'i dont care'. thats shit, but do you think education will change anything?
what is actually education for you? definition?

[martinmc]

You said- unless we can radically change the edycation system and get people tou understand the issues....democracy is dead. I believe this to be nonsense. Surely it is only through democracythat the education system will change. Our present, blighted, democracy makes more sense than you're idea of an unelected Quango making decisions on our behalf. Yes governments make decisions on our behalf everyday but the have something approaching a mandate. Who is to say that the unelected don't have the same agenda as those elected. What about redress, accountability etc? I would like to believe that this community would want to put the power back into the hands of citizens not take it further away. Also, never mistake education for intelligence.

[DaNatural]

comrade people can go through university and still be uneducated on what really counts when dealing with governing. people go through school only taking economic, law and perhaps even history courses. when u are dealing with governing of people, the only way to insure betterment for all is to have people educated in the social sciences and arts to be ruling. im sure u understand the political system fine, but that doesnt mean u understand what it takes to run it for the betterment of all. people who do not study in sociology and philosophy cannot be expected to understand mankind. now im not talking about creating an elite "club" but those are not educated in these areas should not be running anything, period. u seem to be stuck on this democratic idea, but at the moment my friend the masses dont know shit, and we cant expect them to make things better. peace

[DaNatural]

also when the philosopher kings to take control, then of course the education system changes and people will be properly educated, then we can have real democracy. peace
and as for accountability, true philosopher kings are satisfied with the contemplative and are not greedy, that is the ideal philosopher king. peace.

[Freiheit]

to vote you must have studied philosophy and sociology. thats not very intelligent. how many people have studied this things, not even one percent of the population, at least in switzerland, i actually had to take ethic/philosophy or religion classes.

you think the education it too bad.
why do create a new class of ruling people instead to change the education. more political, philosophic classes.
marx wrote about class struggle and we shouldnt creat one more, we have enough already.
you must find a solution by the roots, and that the education (in your opinion) and not try with a unjust and complicated, and probably bad-working new class to make it a little bit better.

[Freiheit]

if the upper class (your educated, voting class) can vote, but the normal human cant, their must be reason why the have privileges and can rule.
you say this reason is better education, the upper class will descide if you have enough education to be upper class, very fair actually.

soon, they will say, we are BETTER than the people because we are educated.
then they will create a state for themself and rule however they want.
take every aristocracy as an example, was it fair - no.
were the aristocrats educated - yes.

[Guest]

yea i agree with Freiheit, what u are proposing is upsurd. who is to say that these people will always act in the good of society??! you say they are philisopher kings and will but after a few genereations these "kings" may have changed what it means to be a philsosher to suit their own needs! a classless society can not be created with a so obvious ruling class that puts down the lower classes beacuse of their inferior "edusction". so what if someone i booksmart, street eductaion is what really counts. people know enough to know what is best for themselves!

[Freiheit]

DaNatural, what do you think would change in your
political system?
please explain a little better.

[Moskitto]

In that game I play there is a post modern system of government called "Technocracy"

It is based on Technology and has a very strict hierarchy based on intellegence. Because only the extremely gifted are given an education (because It is otherwise a waste of resources) only a small number of people can vote, This leads to the army being used to maintain control.

Also because Technocrats don't want to get involved in social issues (because they waste resources) Businesses are given free reign and exploit everyone.

In all this government cause large amounts of social upheaval and oppression.

And what is being suggested sounds uncanningly like Technocracy, So I agree with Freiheit.

At least we should try and improve education. Citizenship lessons aren't going to be introduced into the UK until 2002.

[DaNatural]

forgive me freiheit idont know what exactlyu mean when u ask what will change in my political system do u mean how things will become better? very simple, with philosopher kings ruling the society they will do what is n the best interest of the people, not themselves, which is what modern day politicians do. the society wiil have order, i can only explain it so much, freiheit, i recommend reading The Republc, By plato, u will see what im talking about, ts very idealistic but i think it wuld be best. peace

[Freiheit]

now i know what you mean, it is an utopia.
it wont work, at least for the next 5000 years not.
maybe in 5000 years.

but why should some certain ppl (who have education)
be able to descide what the best is for ppl without
education.
every human should have the right to be involved in the
political system.

[Kez]

I agree with DaNatural very strongly that most people who vote the government are FUCKING JACKASSES.
phew- anyway, however a ruling elite should not be established, therefore we are left with the option of educating people , on what is really important in life, and how important life is.

On another note, whats wrong with a dictatorship of the proleritat (sp)? If put in place correctly surely that is the purest and more correct form opf democracy, as people haveto think about society.

comrade kamo

[DaNatural]

freiheit the reason people with education should be the ones who run the city is simple, for one, would u allow someone who doesnt know jack shit about cars try and fix something in yours? probably not, same with a sick patient would u let some bozo operate on your dad if he was sick? probably not, same thing applies to politics i dont want a majority of bozo's to have the right to make decisions on things they have no idea. majority of people vote in favor of whats best for them not whats best for the overall public. hey i have no problem with dictatorship of proletariat, as long as people are educated then he'll u dont need philosopher kings running things. but until then , in my idealistic society philosopher rule is the only way.

[Moskitto]

"We are all Philosophers"

Anon

[Freiheit]

DaNatural, you say to be able to vote, you should be educated, that is not a bad point, in fact it is a good idea.
but we shouldnt let only the educated ones vote,
WE HAVE TO EDUCATE EVERYONE, that is the best thing, that you have to take classes and pass them to get the permission to vote.

[Guest]

i think government should be controlled and decided on by a large governing body, individuals who are properly educated, in sociology, psychology and philosophy
danatural
what do you think is happening right now who do you think puts up this presidents that the uneducated people vote for,what would you call senators, and the house of representatives they are a group of educated people that studied everything you said what happened where they go wrong. and this country isnt even a democracy there is a electoral college which does not represent the vote of this so called uneducated people.

i believe that a true democratic socialist goverment should be created, where the people get to vote on people that are truly qualified that will rule for the people in a socialist fashion.
El Mazahua

[mazahua]

i think government should be controlled and decided on by a large governing body, individuals who are properly educated, in sociology, psychology and philosophy
danatural
what do you think is happening right now who do you think puts up this presidents that the uneducated people vote for,what would you call senators, and the house of representatives they are a group of educated people that studied everything you said what happened where they go wrong. and this country isnt even a democracy there is a electoral college which does not represent the vote of this so called uneducated people.

i believe that a true democratic socialist goverment should be created, where the people get to vote on people that are truly qualified that will rule for the people in a socialist fashion.
El Mazahua

[Kez]

I have very strong views that ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY should have the opportunity to vote, regardless of race, sex, sexuality, nationality, education.
It is therefore our duty to educate the masses

comrade kamo

[mazahua]

kamo
i dont know your beliefs, but i believe that to create a true revolution, the people have to be involved.
Because the revolution is for the people, and for a true revolution without violence like most of us hope for.
The're has to be true freedom to pick your people and to pick for they're reformations and changes.
But if that can't be aquired through political changes, then it's our duty as revolutionaries to change it.

[b]Prefiero morir de pie, que vivir de rodillas.[b]
-ZAPATA

[socialistEUROPEAN]

Democracy? Could you call yourself an inhabitant of a democratic nation? If you can tell me where you live. Most people will class democracy as any govn't that is more libertarian than the soviet regime. Our so called democracy is here to keep us quiet, give us a false sense of speech. The truth is democracy gives the vocal minority (them) the voice while the quiet majority (us) are silenced. There is no point shouting, they won't listen, GET UP THERE AND REMOVE THEM, WITH FORCE IF NECESSARY!

[koba]

whoah, ok things are getting a little out of hand ..... anyway i think what DaNatural meant is to have a sort of Vanguard party, which by the way was proposed by Lenin.

This party would regroup people who have the characteristics and qualities to govern the society. I think it is important to note that no class, or years of education come with anything to do with this, but more of what one knows about society and his idea's and competence, meaning you dont need a big degree saying you graduated in philosophy to know about philosophy, many are self educated.

Now my opinion is that having a Vanguard party could be useful indeed, but it would be too easy for it to become currupt where as only a specific group of people who think the same way might join, and others excluded. My solution to this would be, for a communist regime lets say, a person joins the communist party then runs to be elected in his area against other communist party members and the one who has the ideas which best please the population gets to join this Vanguard Party, which would be the elite of the communist party. Yet no special education, class, or statue would matter. By this we would have, an elite group of thinkers which would take the right choices in the intrest of society, WITH a democracy since the population chose(elected) its members. And in case anything gets out of hand a sort of Senate,which would be also selected by the population to insure that the populations intrests are met, would be able to bloc any unjust decisions which the majority of the pop disagrees with. In this way we can insure that the revolution goes on, but that no abuse is done by the Vanguard party. Notice that there would only be ONE official party, since no real socialist revolution would be completed if the communist party loses power after a few years, and their progress is reversed by the newly elected capitalist party, only to start over in five years if they win again, which would be totally useless.


P.S. just one thing am i the only one who finds it unnoying that people step off topic too often in this board? Eveytime unstead of giving ones opinion, or putting on an argument against or for the others point, the topic goes off by someone trying to contradict or deform what the other said, like in this case ...... why the hell are we defining education?

[Fires of History]

Whether democracy in theory is great or not, it is an illusion at this point in history.

The U$ being the best example of democracy as illusion.

Power to the people,
Trance