Chavez Loves Jesus Christ!

[which doctor]

Christ and Castro help Chavez lift the Left

*
* January 12, 2007

CARACAS, Venezuela: Invoking Christ and Fidel Castro as his models, President Hugo Chavez began his third term yesterday by declaring that socialism is the only way forward for Venezuela and the world.
His first stop: Nicaragua, where he joined leftist ally Daniel Ortega, who returned to power just hours later.

Raising his right hand in Caracas to take the oath of office for another six-year term, Mr Chavez declared in words reminiscent of Dr Castro's famous call to arms: "Fatherland, socialism or death - I swear it."

He also alluded to Jesus: "I swear by Christ, the greatest socialist in history." He then flew to Nicaragua to watch Mr Ortega, the former US foe, restored to the presidency nearly 17 years after he lost power.

Appearing in Managua before thousands of supporters, Mr Ortega, Mr Chavez and Bolivian President Evo Morales called for the quick recovery of Cuba's ailing Dr Castro and pledged to form a coalition of leftist leaders who would fight to nationalise natural resources.

Dr Castro's health prevented him from attending, but Jose Ramon Machado Ventura, one of the Cuban revolution's oldest surviving leaders, said the communist leader sent his "utmost support." The three called for a united, leftist front.

"With unity there is strength," Mr Ortega said. "With unity comes victory."

Before taking office, Mr Ortega promised to respect private property and business and maintain ties with the US.

Thousands of Americans have retired to Nicaragua and the country is poised to benefit from the new Central American Free Trade Agreement.

Mr Ortega led Nicaragua throughout the 1980s after his Sandinista rebel movement pushed out dictator Anastasio Somoza. Following his 1990 loss, he ran for president three consecutive times, losing twice before victory in November.

The US Government so despised Mr Ortega during the 1980s that aides to then president Ronald Reagan secretly sold arms to Iran's radical Islamic government to finance aid for the Contra rebels trying to overthrow the Sandinistas.

Today, Mr Bush and Mr Chavez are fighting for influence there, both promising aid while pushing vastly different answers for the country's poverty.

Mr Chavez, at the apex of a resurgent Latin American Left, has been emboldened to make more radical changes after winning re-election with 63 per cent of the vote. His next moves include nationalising electrical and telecommunications companies, forming a commission to oversee constitutional reforms and asking the National Assembly, now entirely controlled by his supporters, to allow him to enact "revolutionary laws".

Mr Chavez has promised low-interest loans to Nicaragua's poor and more than 30 electricity plants for the energy-starved, Central American nation.

Critics say his policies look like old-fashioned totalitarianism. But Chavez said he was crafting "21st century socialism".

AP

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Nothing new here. This has been pointed out several times. Chavez makes no secret of his Christianity, and his liberation-theology like belief that "Jesus" was a socialist revolutionary.. even before capitalism came into existence.

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 11, 2007 05:06 pm
Nothing new here. This has been pointed out several times. Chavez makes no secret of his Christianity, and his liberation-theology like belief that "Jesus" was a socialist revolutionary.. even before capitalism came into existence.
thats partly why I like Chavez :)

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Looks like people are out to character assasinate chavez now....

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by Red Menace+January 11, 2007 05:46 pm--> (Red Menace @ January 11, 2007 05:46 pm)
Compañ[email protected] 11, 2007 05:06 pm
Nothing new here. This has been pointed out several times. Chavez makes no secret of his Christianity, and his liberation-theology like belief that "Jesus" was a socialist revolutionary.. even before capitalism came into existence.
thats partly why I like Chavez :) [/b]
Because he's a Christian? Wow, and your a communist as well? Sorry, you cant be both, either one or the other. Religion abandons the materialist conception of history for an idealist one, the idea that a savior from above or below will save humanity. We must liberate ourselves.

And Chavez can straight suck it for calling himself a socialist, once again, we begin with the confusion of the masses with the word socialism, as if it could be enacted through the bourgeois electoral system, instead of calling it a working people's republic, as it is.

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by hastalavictoria+January 11, 2007 10:56 pm--> (hastalavictoria @ January 11, 2007 10:56 pm)
Originally posted by Red [email protected] 11, 2007 05:46 pm

Compañ[email protected] 11, 2007 05:06 pm
Nothing new here. This has been pointed out several times. Chavez makes no secret of his Christianity, and his liberation-theology like belief that "Jesus" was a socialist revolutionary.. even before capitalism came into existence.
thats partly why I like Chavez :)
Because he's a Christian? Wow, and your a communist as well? Sorry, you cant be both, either one or the other. Religion abandons the materialist conception of history for an idealist one, the idea that a savior from above or below will save humanity. We must liberate ourselves.

And Chavez can straight suck it for calling himself a socialist, once again, we begin with the confusion of the masses with the word socialism, as if it could be enacted through the bourgeois electoral system, instead of calling it a working people's republic, as it is. [/b]
Yeah I don't think I've made my Christian beliefs really secret. I mean look at my avatar.

Yes, I can be both. I obviosly don't agree with the atheist view of Marxists.
Here, educate yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism
I'm not like a typical christian. I could give a rats ass if your one or not. Most will try to convert you or something. And I believe in the abolition of organized religion.
but I didn't really mean for this to start a debate. please continue on Chavez

[Hiero]

Wow you mean Chavez is not a Communst? I think we all know that Chavez is a social democrat. However he is doing alot of progressive things in Venezeula. The class war will eventually leave no choice but a move from social democracy into the proletariat dictatorship. Some people take a liberal analysis on Venezeula, and criticize individuals while not looking at the masses. Chavez is a social democrat, but what is happening in Venezuela is revolution, a individual character can not change material conditions.

In that case this thread should be moved from politics and to chit chat. It brings forward no discussion on the political situation of Venezuela.

[Dimentio]

Chavez does not need to believe it, but he needs to look as he is believing that as it disconnects the peasantry and the lumpen-proletariat from the former establishment. Radical, dogmatic atheism is crazy, as it alienates the masses.

[Tatarin]

A form of deja-vu here. Didn't a Soviet leader say something like that? Gorbatchev or Krutchov, didn't one of them say that Jesus was the first communist?

[Honggweilo]

I belive it was marx who founded the concept of primeval communism, thats is also pre-capitalist society, so that denounces the whole "G-sus was t3h first commie" statement. I think overall its more moralistic mysticism to appeal to progressive christains.

I dont belive neither Krustev or Gorbi where orthodox-chirstians, Stalin and Lenin however where. Though both not practicing, Stalin did retain some uncoincience christian morality, like having said "god be with you comrade" on more then one occasion

Chavez isnt the first socialist to make such a statement.

[bolshevik butcher]

I don't personally care that Chavez is religous. Most of the Venezuelan workers are also religous. Most of the Russian workers were probably religous as well. Does this mean that nothing significant is happening in Venezuela now?

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 02:43 pm
I belive it was marx who founded the concept of primeval communism, thats is also pre-capitalist society, so that denounces the whole "G-sus was t3h first commie" statement. I think overall its more moralistic mysticism to appeal to progressive christains.

I dont belive neither Krustev or Gorbi where orthodox-chirstians, Stalin and Lenin however where. Though both not practicing, Stalin did retain some uncoincience christian morality, like having said "god be with you comrade" on more then one occasion

Chavez isnt the first socialist to make such a statement.
Moralist mysticism as a populist tool is better than Dogmatic atheism.

[Reuben]

far more significant is the fact that chavez declared himself a trotskyist

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

who actually cares if he believes in a mythical being? as long as it doesn't impair his abilty to bring socialism to venezuela then let the guy believe in all the deiities he wants...

As long as he doesn't let his religion interfere with politics, I don't see it being that big of an issue... he's been very critical of the catholic church in Venezuela... seems like one of those guys who goes out and lives their normal lives and then goes and prays to jesus in his house...

Given that, abortions are only legal in venezuela if the womans life is in danger - that's still a whole lot better than the law Ortega recently passed banning abortions all together

[The Grey Blur]

Well Christ was probably a true historical figure, but I get what you mean - his belief that JC was a commie does not in anyway affect the revolutionary situation in Venezuala.

This has also been stated several times before, FoB must only be reading mainstream press articles on Venezuala to have picked up on this so late. Also FoB do you actually want to provide an opinion on this or was it pointless baiting?

[Tatarin]

Last I heard, Latin America is where most "religious-left" resides today. Maybe this will evolve a new kind of movement of the left?

Maybe we should drop atheism alltogether? :D

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 06:53 pm
Maybe we should drop atheism alltogether? :D
maybe not :D

[Louis Pio]

Well In Latin America there seems to have been a quite progressive current in the catholic churc.
Just look at what happened recently in a big meeting at the Cipla plant in Brazil:

The next speaker was a surprise. Father Pucio, a young priest who is soon to become a bishop, introduced himself as a spokesman of the Episcopate. He appeared before the workers dressed, not in a cassock, but in the yellow t-shirt of the Occupied Factories Movement. He then proceeded to deliver one of the most militant speeches of the day.

“What a joy it is for me to be present at this historic meeting,” he said. “The reduction of the working day is the only way in which working men and women can live a full life and develop themselves, raising their cultural and educational level.”

Then, bible in hand, he proceeded to lambaste the bosses. Quoting with evident relish from a very ferocious passage from the Epistle of Saint James, he denounced the rich and practically sent all those who refused to accept the 30-hour week to the burning fires of hell.

“This is a big responsibility for all of us to achieve a complete change in the system of work. Our globalised system has changed everything. It is the cause of much misery when conditions exist for a life of plenty for all. May the spirit of God fill you all with the determination to achieve all the demands of the workers. AMEN!!”


From Historic meeting of workers of Latin America – Cipla workers vote for 30-hour week (http://www.marxist.com/workers-latin-america-cipla111206.htm)

Personally I will work with anyone nomatter their religious beliefs if they want to smash capitalism and start the socialist transformation of society.

[EwokUtopia]

He is not wrong to love Jesus, he is one of the more admirable characters in all of fiction. And, given that most people in his country are Christian, he is merely representing his people. I am no theist or Christian by any stretch of the imagination, but you have to take these religious beliefs with the good and the bad, and as far as it goes, you couldnt find many characters in the bible (or any other ancient mythological text) who are better than Jesus. He is a marvellous character and I love him in that respect. I also love Gandalf, Winston Smith, Leto Atreides, George Orr, Huey Freeman, Yuri Zhivago, and other great minded characters of fiction. If people choose to believe in these characters as real, they have every right to do so, so long as they dont force those beliefs down the throats of others.

If you want to make instant enemies with the masses, just try cutting their opium supply.

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 11:07 pm
He is not wrong to live Jesus, he is one of the more admirable characters in all of fiction. And, given that most people in his country are Christian, he is merely representing his people. I am no theist or Christian by any stretch of the imagination, but you have to take these religious beliefs with the good and the bad, and as far as it goes, you couldnt find many characters in the bible (or any other ancient mythological text) who are better than Jesus. He is a marvellous character and I love him in that respect. I also love Gandalf, Winston Smith, Leto Atreides, George Orr, Huey Freeman, Yuri Zhivago, and other great minded characters of fiction. If people choose to believe in these characters as real, they have every right to do so, so long as they dont force those beliefs down the throats of others.

If you want to make instant enemies with the masses, just try cutting their opium supply.
Brilliantly formulated :D

[McLeft]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 11:07 pm
He is not wrong to live Jesus, he is one of the more admirable characters in all of fiction. And, given that most people in his country are Christian, he is merely representing his people. I am no theist or Christian by any stretch of the imagination, but you have to take these religious beliefs with the good and the bad, and as far as it goes, you couldnt find many characters in the bible (or any other ancient mythological text) who are better than Jesus. He is a marvellous character and I love him in that respect. I also love Gandalf, Winston Smith, Leto Atreides, George Orr, Huey Freeman, Yuri Zhivago, and other great minded characters of fiction. If people choose to believe in these characters as real, they have every right to do so, so long as they dont force those beliefs down the throats of others.

If you want to make instant enemies with the masses, just try cutting their opium supply.
That actually made me laugh, lol I am not an atheist but great statement anyway. I also don't see anything wrong with believing in Jesus.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yeah, why would you need to be rational and a materialist and have a correct understanding of the way things work to lead a revolution? :lol:

Chavez is a dem. socialist, as one comrade said previously.. so as long as you understand what he is, and what the relation of communists to him should be, you'll be okay..


far more significant is the fact that chavez declared himself a trotskyist

... and a Maoist, and a "Quixoteist," and a "Fidelist," and...

[Andy Bowden]

Whats far more worrying than Chavez declaring his christianity is that abortion is still illegal in Venezuela. Though to be fair lawmakers who describe themselves as Bolivarians have been trying to ease restrictions on it.

What is key for Socialists is not to either,

1 - Base our analysis on Venezuela on how great Chavez's speeches are, or
2- Base our analysis on Venezuela on how crap Chavez's speeches are.

Chavez has many, many faults, and believing in a dead Palestinian isn't the worst by any means. Whats important though is to back the process and the radicalising effect it's having on Venezuelan workers.

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 12, 2007 04:17 pm
Yeah, why would you need to be rational and a materialist and have a correct understanding of the way things work to lead a revolution? :lol:

Chavez is a dem. socialist, as one comrade said previously.. so as long as you understand what he is, and what the relation of communists to him should be, you'll be okay..


far more significant is the fact that chavez declared himself a trotskyist

... and a Maoist, and a "Quixoteist," and a "Fidelist," and...
He applied all of those labels to himself?

[Janus]

I remember watching Hugo Chavez's trip to China back in 1999 on Chinese news in which he called himself a Maoist. I believe he stated his Maoist influences again at the 2005 World Social Forum.


I have been a Maoist since I entered military school, I read Che Guevara, I read Bolivar and his speeches and letters, becoming a Bolivarian Maoist, a mixture of all that.

I've never heard Quixotist directly (though I think he encouraged everyone to read the book) but he's definitely called himself a Fidelista.

[which doctor]

Well In Latin America there seems to have been a quite progressive current in the catholic churc.
There is nothing progressive about the Catholic Church nowadays.


Chavez has many, many faults, and believing in a dead Palestinian isn't the worst by any means.
Or maybe he's believing in a Palestinian who never existed?


Also FoB do you actually want to provide an opinion on this or was it pointless baiting?
Well, what do you tnhink? Of course it's pointless baiting.


who actually cares if he believes in a mythical being? as long as it doesn't impair his abilty to bring socialism to venezuela then let the guy believe in all the deiities he wants...
Hugo Chavez won't bring socialism to Venezuela...

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 06:20 am
Or maybe he's believing in a Palestinian who never existed?
Isn't it generally accepted that Jesus existed? - just that the idea of him being the son of God isn't very tangable...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 02:50 am
He applied all of those labels to himself?
I think CDL's point is that Chavez is, how can I say it, perhaps a little bit confuse?

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 06:20 am
Hugo Chavez won't bring socialism to Venezuela...
No, he won't.

Luckily, he isn't the only player in the Venezolan game. There is a working class there, too.

Luís Henrique

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

He applied all of those labels to himself?

Yes..


remember watching Hugo Chavez's trip to China back in 1999 on Chinese news in which he called himself a Maoist. I believe he stated his Maoist influences again at the 2005 World Social Forum.

Correct.


I've never heard Quixotist directly (though I think he encouraged everyone to read the book) but he's definitely called himself a Fidelista.


The Quixoteist part came in the speech he gave in NYC in 2005, which the FPM covered here (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/fpm/page.php?65). An .mp3 of the speech (w/ English translation) is available here (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/chavez.mp3).

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Isn't it generally accepted that Jesus existed? - just that the idea of him being the son of God isn't very tangable...

No.. among alot of people there is an understanding that "Jesus Christ" never actually existed. The movie "The God Who Wasn't There" goes into it, and references a lot of sources.. check it out if you haven't already.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 14, 2007 01:27 am
No.. among alot of people there is an understanding that "Jesus Christ" never actually existed. The movie "The God Who Wasn't There" goes into it, and references a lot of sources.. check it out if you haven't already.
Meh, Yehoshua Ben Yosef probably did exist, but not as the character Jesus Christ that he is made up to be. For a relevant comparison, Lucius Artorius Castus really existed, but he was not the King of the Britons, nor did he weild a scimitar lobbed at him by some watery tart, as his legendary alter-ego King Arthur did. There probably once lived a man that Christians after his death twisted into Jesus Christ, this does not mean that the Messiah ever existed.

[Rawthentic]

Tough to understand a character like Chavez. He was elected through the bourgeois electoral system, and now proclaims a "revolution" in Venezuela, besides calling himself a Maoist. :huh:

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 08:07 am
Tough to understand a character like Chavez. He was elected through the bourgeois electoral system, and now proclaims a "revolution" in Venezuela, besides calling himself a Maoist. :huh:
IMO Self applied labels doesn't Matter. Actions speak louder than words. As Luis Henrique pointed out


Luckily, he isn't the only player in the Venezolan game. There is a working class there, too.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+January 13, 2007 11:50 am--> (Luís Henrique @ January 13, 2007 11:50 am)
[email protected] 13, 2007 02:50 am
He applied all of those labels to himself?
I think CDL's point is that Chavez is, how can I say it, perhaps a little bit confuse?

Luís Henrique [/b]
He isn't confused, he knows damn well what he labels himself. He is just an opportunist.

[Coggeh]

Jesus was the first revolutionary ..apparently :)

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 11:30 am
Jesus was the first revolutionary ..apparently :)
No, Satan was the first revolutionary.

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 06:53 pm
Last I heard, Latin America is where most "religious-left" resides today. Maybe this will evolve a new kind of movement of the left?

Maybe we should drop atheism alltogether? :D
What's going on is similar to the Petit Eglise phenomenon that took place in Haiti: While the Pope, his cronies, and the other higher-ups in the Church were in cahoots with Duvalier, many further down the hierarchy who are more directly involved with the their spiritual flock worked against Latin America's cruelest dictatorship and would ultimately go on to back Aristide, himself a priest.

[SmashCapitalism]

Living in Latin America, I can guarantee that if you try to say Communists can't be Christians, then Communism and leftism in general will go nowhere. Sure, many people only go to church once every couple of years, but try to take away the church, and they will be outraged.

Remember the Liberation Christian/Marxist theology in Latin America, making towns just a few steps away from being totally socialist religious communities. A lot of people really loved that. So I say maybe you don't like the religious-socialist mix, but it's better than living in capitalism, no?

[Louis Pio]

The insistence of some leftist to push away all people with any forms of religious beliefs have much in common with (quite funnily) religious puritanism. Like for example fob.

It's quite amazing to have the ability to overlook concrete examples as the quote I posted earlier. Actually it would be quite strange if the fight in the Latin American countries didn't also manifest itself inside the church of those countries in question.

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 04:56 am
Because he's a Christian? Wow, and your a communist as well? Sorry, you cant be both, either one or the other. Religion abandons the materialist conception of history for an idealist one, the idea that a savior from above or below will save humanity. We must liberate ourselves.
You can be a communist and christian, but you CAN'T be a marxist and a christian. (well, you probably could if you didn't understand one of them properly but Marxism would eventually cancel out Christianity as you learn more)

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by Matty_UK+January 15, 2007 04:23 pm--> (Matty_UK @ January 15, 2007 04:23 pm)
[email protected] 12, 2007 04:56 am
Because he's a Christian? Wow, and your a communist as well? Sorry, you cant be both, either one or the other. Religion abandons the materialist conception of history for an idealist one, the idea that a savior from above or below will save humanity. We must liberate ourselves.
You can be a communist and christian, but you CAN'T be a marxist and a christian. (well, you probably could if you didn't understand one of them properly but Marxism would eventually cancel out Christianity as you learn more) [/b]
agreed

[Vladimir]

This was only a speech and consider that the vast majority of Venezuelans declare themselves Roman Catholic...over 90% I would imagine. I found a small piece from a news article about Chavez and the RC Church in Venezuela that adds a little to this thread..Notice Chavez's comments at the end.


Chavez said the bishops were wrong and "out of touch with reality."

"There has been no other government in Venezuela, and I say this with all humility, that has been closer ... to the mandate of Christ," he said.

Leading bishops have frequently accused the Venezuelan leader of stirring up divisive political and social conflicts in the world's No. 5 oil exporter.

Some have even accused him of trying to introduce an atheistic communist ideology they say threatens traditional Catholic teaching.

Chavez, who often quotes from the scriptures and sometimes brandishes a miniature crucifix during his fiery speeches, has described his high-ranking Catholic critics as "a tumor" and "devils in cassocks."

The president, who vows to convert Venezuela from capitalism to "a new socialism," says his government's programs to provide free health, education and job training for the poor are in line with Christian teaching.

"Socialism is the theory of Christ ... Love one another," Chavez said.

"That's the reality, but these bishops refuse to accept it ... May God forgive them," he added.

Source: http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=17867&sec=59&cont=8

[cumbia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 06:53 pm
Last I heard, Latin America is where most "religious-left" resides today. Maybe this will evolve a new kind of movement of the left?

Maybe we should drop atheism alltogether? :D
It quite the growing movement, its been around for fifty years. It called Liberation Theology.