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Dimentio
11th January 2007, 01:15
With positive discrimination, I do not mean affirmative action, but I mean discrimination which rather than being intended to exclude people from the society, is trying to forcefully integrate them in society [like Roma people in the 19th century, or in the eastern bloc-nations].

Positive discrimination could also mean the attempts to make social groups to change opinions, ideology or life-style.

What is your opinion on that?

BTW - "Positive" does not mean that it is "good", but rather that it is intending to integrate the group or individual[s] in question into society, while negative discrimination is intending to "exclude" the group or individual[s] from society.

Fawkes
11th January 2007, 01:22
Do you mean things such as forcing students to go to different schools so as to create diversity? If that is the case, I am against forced integration and believe that the people should do it themselves.

Edit: 400 posts WOO HOO!!

Dimentio
11th January 2007, 01:33
Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 01:22 am
Do you mean things such as forcing students to go to different schools so as to create diversity? If that is the case, I am against forced integration and believe that the people should do it themselves.

Edit: 400 posts WOO HOO!!
That is an example of positive discrimination, even though I give a reluctant yes. I would rather say a specification by society directed against a particular group in order to adapt to mainstream society.

One example is teen aspies forced to take medication so they could "socialise better".

Another example is communists/anarchists/religious whackos/nazis [or any other political group which hold a political belief which society seems as undesirable] forced to sacrfice their beliefs if they want a job.

Yes, I know that it is provoking to even mention reactionary groups, but theoretically, discrimination does not only mean "the bad guys discriminating the good guys", but could also mean "the bad guys discriminating other bad guys" or "the good guys discriminating the bad guys".

Fawkes
11th January 2007, 02:51
^^ That I think is very bad for society. I once wrote an essay as an accuplacer to take college courses about whether uniforms should be mandatory in public schools. I basically, among other things, described how the idea of making everybody in society similar to one another is a very bad thing and very dangerous thing to society. I guess that would describe my opinions on the subject.

SPK
11th January 2007, 08:14
Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 08:15 pm
With positive discrimination, I do not mean affirmative action, but I mean discrimination which rather than being intended to exclude people from the society, is trying to forcefully integrate them in society (like Roma people in the 19th century, or in the eastern bloc-nations).
Groups which stand “outside” of society or have been marginalized are generally in that position because of a history of oppression by another group or institution – by the state, through capitalism’s structural effects, by dominant social forces, and so on. If you want to create the conditions whereby these excluded groups can be reintegrated, make sure that the underlying causes of these oppressions have been addressed – which, needless to say, I think can only truly be done after the overthrow of capitalism. Once that’s done, individuals can then make a freer and more unfettered choice (relatively speaking) to integrate if they wish – or not.

Posing this question of social cohesion in a very abstract, general way – i.e., without explicitly linking it to actually-existing oppressions and the necessity of revolution, which at this point applies to almost all countries around the globe – is problematic. We should not be interested in strengthening the hand of the capitalist state, or the prevailing social forces which buttress it, by eliminating – forcibly or otherwise – those social spaces or terrain which could be used for resistance against the system. Requiring the integration of different oppressed peoples, in the way that is suggested by your original question, would have this objective effect.

The left has a long and soiled history on this issue. It has been consistently proposed that differences or variations in how people live their lives must be eliminated or suppressed to build “unity”, a “unity” which will putatively help to build a revolutionary process or sustain a future communist society. The mostly-unspoken corollary to this position is that such differences or variations divide people and render them unable to come together in opposing the current system and constructing a new world. These lines are toxic and – clearly, given the weakness of the left today, in the usa at least – ineffective: visions of a new world in which cultural differences important to people today (currently organized around the axes of, say, race, gender, sexuality, or nationality) have been eviscerated -- whether by violence or state / social sanction, it doesn’t matter -- aren’t exactly appealing. Revolutionaries have to be able to organize across line of difference and not attempt to impose some artificial homogeneity: currently, the left isn’t very good at doing this.

Luís Henrique
11th January 2007, 18:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 01:33 am
Another example is communists/anarchists/religious whackos/nazis [or any other political group which hold a political belief which society seems as undesirable] forced to sacrfice their beliefs if they want a job.
This doesn't sound as "positive" discrimination at all... it's just old negative discrimination, "excluding" people who do not comform to a given set of social prejudices.

"Positive" discrimination would be somewhat like promoting a fasho to a better, more challenging job in the hopes that they would become less prejudiced because of that...

Luís Henrique

Dimentio
11th January 2007, 21:07
Originally posted by Luís Henrique+January 11, 2007 06:11 pm--> (Luís Henrique @ January 11, 2007 06:11 pm)
[email protected] 11, 2007 01:33 am
Another example is communists/anarchists/religious whackos/nazis [or any other political group which hold a political belief which society seems as undesirable] forced to sacrfice their beliefs if they want a job.
This doesn't sound as "positive" discrimination at all... it's just old negative discrimination, "excluding" people who do not comform to a given set of social prejudices.

"Positive" discrimination would be somewhat like promoting a fasho to a better, more challenging job in the hopes that they would become less prejudiced because of that...

Luís Henrique [/b]
Yes, you are right. Or taking them on a tour to Auschwitz.