Gender roles and stereotypes of gay people

[RevMARKSman]

These questions are meant to address stereotypes in our society. No matter what you answer, please explain your response.

Are all gay men "feminine"? Most?
Are all gay men weak? Most?
Are all gay men "sex-crazed"? Most?
Is it "bad" for men to be "feminine"?
Is it "weak" for men to be "feminine"?
Is it "bad" for men to be "weak"?
Are "feminine" men somehow "less of men"?
Is being sex-crazed "bad"?
Are all lesbians "masculine"? Most?
Is it "bad" for women to be "masculine"?
Are "masculine" women somehow "less of women"?
Are "masculine" women somehow "stronger" than their "feminine" counterparts?
Are all "masculine" people "strong"?
Are all "feminine" people "weak"?
Are all men "masculine"?
Are all women "feminine"?
Does this have any effect on whether they are "strong" or "weak"?
Are all transgender people simply closet gay/lesbian people?

*"masculine" - the traits associated with the male gender role in our society; e.g. liking trucks, sports, sciences, wearing stereotypically male/androgynous clothes, being unemotional, etc, etc, etc...
"feminine - the traits associated with the female gender role in our current society; e.g. liking dolls, fantasy, the arts, wearing stereotypically female clothes, being emotional/clingy, etc, etc, etc...


Discuss, respond, what have you.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Homomasculinity is a section of the gay community that is at odds with the "real" gay community. At least from stuff ive read anyway.

Like the the whole motorcycles and being hairy and beer guts, and not liking effeminate men, gay or straight.

That whole bear and cubs thing is in that whole sub culture in the gay community.

But it gets attacked from the rest of the gay community, because their supposedly not accepting who they "really" are. haha.

i think that masculinity is not one overriding thing, i think its a group/fragments, sometimes these look feminine but are very much masculine. and vice versa for the feminine side.

im not answering the questions

[TC]

Its not very mature or useful to try to bait people into reporting politically incorrect opinions (lol especially when you start off by saying "you will be restricted" if they don't give the right answers to your silly questions) and it just comes off as acting superior and judgemental.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 07:22 pm
Its not very mature or useful to try to bait people into reporting politically incorrect opinions (lol especially when you start off by saying "you will be restricted" if they don't give the right answers to your silly questions) and it just comes off as acting superior and judgemental.
Well, thank you for noticing something I never thought about. :blink:

I guess wanting reasons for these answers, and warning people about what will happen if they do something really fucking stupid, is entirely too supercilious and judgmental :blink:

All I want to know is the explanations for these stereotypes and how they came to be, how they're wrong, etc.

But what was the most off-key was implying that I'm "politically correct." You were the one arguing in some transphobia threads that gender is entirely constructed, no neurological basis...

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by MonicaTTmed+January 10, 2007 06:42 pm--> (MonicaTTmed @ January 10, 2007 06:42 pm)
[email protected] 10, 2007 07:22 pm
Its not very mature or useful to try to bait people into reporting politically incorrect opinions (lol especially when you start off by saying "you will be restricted" if they don't give the right answers to your silly questions) and it just comes off as acting superior and judgemental.
Well, thank you for noticing something I never thought about. :blink:

I guess wanting reasons for these answers, and warning people about what will happen if they do something really fucking stupid, is entirely too supercilious and judgmental :blink:

All I want to know is the explanations for these stereotypes and how they came to be, how they're wrong, etc.

But what was the most off-key was implying that I'm "politically correct." You were the one arguing in some transphobia threads that gender is entirely constructed, no neurological basis... [/b]
No, I agree with TragicClown. Sounds like your baiting people into saying what you think is incorrect as an answer. If one did mention yes, this group would respond accordingly.

And I was a bit confused as to your intentions for this post, and even what you wanted us to say. then you later explained that you wanted people to explain what was wrong with these stereotypes. so i guess what im saying is, that there is nothing wrong with the topic, it's just how you worded it, and what you expected from people.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Men cannot have feminine traits and women cant have masculine traits.

Whatever the gender of the person is determines that traits feminity or masculinty.

[RevMARKSman]

No, I agree with TragicClown. Sounds like your baiting people into saying what you think is incorrect as an answer. If one did mention yes, this group would respond accordingly.


Then I'll take the warning off. If I had not put it on in the first place, I am 100% certain that someone would have attacked my motives anyway ("are you secretly sexist and wanting people to defend anti-sexist positions?" "Do you really think the answer to some of those questions is Yes?"). I guess the safe side isn't so safe after all :rolleyes:


Men cannot have feminine traits and women cant have masculine traits.

Whatever the gender of the person is determines that traits feminity or masculinty.

If you want to define feminine and masculine that way, I can rephrase the questions for you (replacing "feminine" and "masculine" from the first post with "Q" and "37", respectively):

Are all gay men "Q"? Most?
Are all gay men weak? Most?
Are all gay men "sex-crazed"? Most?
Is it "bad" for men to be "Q"?
Is it "weak" for men to be "Q"?
Is it "bad" for men to be "weak"?
Are stereotypically "Q" men somehow less masculine?
Is being sex-crazed "bad"?
Are all lesbians "37"? Most?
Is it "bad" for women to be "37"?
Are "37" women somehow less feminine?
Are "37" women somehow "stronger" than their "Q" counterparts?
Are all "37" people "strong"?
Are all "Q" people "weak"?
Are all men "37"?
Are all women "Q"?
Does this have any effect on whether they are "strong" or "weak"?
Are all transgender people simply closet gay/lesbian people?

[Red Menace]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 07:31 pm

No, I agree with TragicClown. Sounds like your baiting people into saying what you think is incorrect as an answer. If one did mention yes, this group would respond accordingly.


Then I'll take the warning off. If I had not put it on in the first place, I am 100% certain that someone would have attacked my motives anyway ("are you secretly sexist and wanting people to defend anti-sexist positions?" "Do you really think the answer to some of those questions is Yes?"). I guess the safe side isn't so safe after all :rolleyes:


Thank you comrade. I saw no problem with the topic, the warning just through me off track.

[SPK]

Well, Monica, that's a pretty broad set of questions. Since the basic idea that sexuality could be conceptually separated from gender arose in about the mid-eighties, and since there has been a lot of developments since that point, could you please focus and clarify your underlying question a bit? That might help in responding to it.

[Hiero]

Even without the warning comment, the thread is rather arrogant and an comes off as an attempt to please ourselfs on how revolutionary we are.

We all know how any reasonably progressive person is going to answer. Even if you are homophobic you would know how to answer perfectly to please the board. Maybe you should have make more complex question, or made the question more relevant.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 06:06 am
Even without the warning comment, the thread is rather arrogant and an comes off as an attempt to please ourselfs on how revolutionary we are.

We all know how any reasonably progressive person is going to answer. Even if you are homophobic you would know how to answer perfectly to please the board. Maybe you should have make more complex question, or made the question more relevant.
How many times do I have to say this?

I want to know why. I don't care what you think about these questions, I want to know why, I want to see sources, etc, etc.

Read the entire thread before you post.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 09:30 pm
Are all gay men "feminine"? Most?
Are all lesbians "masculine"? Most?
By no stretch of imagination.

There is even a subset of uebermasculine gay men (of the kind, "women are for sissies, real men like other men").


Are all gay men weak? Most?

I seem to notice that you forgot to ask whether all lesbians are strong...

What "weak" means, in the context you imagined it?

People's physical strenght is completey unrelated to their sexual orientation.

If you mean emotional strenght, then, yes, there is a stereotype that men should be emotionally strong. This usually reflects, in practice, in men being less able to deal with their own emotions than women are (which probably means that most women are emotionally stronger than men, not the opposite).


Are all gay men "sex-crazed"? Most?

Certainly not, though it would be arguable that those that are, are more noticeable than those that aren't.

Are all lesbians "sex-crazed"?


Is it "bad" for men to be "weak"?

No, most of us are.


*"masculine" - the traits associated with the male gender role in our society; e.g. liking trucks, sports, sciences, wearing stereotypically male/androgynous clothes, being unemotional, etc, etc, etc...
"feminine - the traits associated with the female gender role in our current society; e.g. liking dolls, fantasy, the arts, wearing stereotypically female clothes, being emotional/clingy, etc, etc, etc...

These stereotypes are unacceptable... and, for their "feminine" part, aren't even close to reality. Working class women do not have the time or money to be "feminine".

What importance do you attribute to these stereotypes?

Are those stereotypes what is usually called "gender"?


Is being sex-crazed "bad"?

Well, being crazed is certainly bad; what comes to issue, though, is whether what people call "sex-crazed" is really crazed...


Are all transgender people simply closet gay/lesbian people?

Certainly not.

What, if any, are the differences between being transexual and being "transgendered"?

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+January 11, 2007 08:18 am--> (Luís Henrique @ January 11, 2007 08:18 am)
[email protected] 10, 2007 09:30 pm
Are all gay men "feminine"? Most?
Are all lesbians "masculine"? Most?
By no stretch of imagination.

There is even a subset of uebermasculine gay men (of the kind, "women are for sissies, real men like other men").


Are all gay men weak? Most?

I seem to notice that you forgot to ask whether all lesbians are strong...

What "weak" means, in the context you imagined it?

People's physical strenght is completey unrelated to their sexual orientation.

If you mean emotional strenght, then, yes, there is a stereotype that men should be emotionally strong. This usually reflects, in practice, in men being less able to deal with their own emotions than women are (which probably means that most women are emotionally stronger than men, not the opposite).


Are all gay men "sex-crazed"? Most?

Certainly not, though it would be arguable that those that are, are more noticeable than those that aren't.

Are all lesbians "sex-crazed"?


Is it "bad" for men to be "weak"?

No, most of us are.


*"masculine" - the traits associated with the male gender role in our society; e.g. liking trucks, sports, sciences, wearing stereotypically male/androgynous clothes, being unemotional, etc, etc, etc...
"feminine - the traits associated with the female gender role in our current society; e.g. liking dolls, fantasy, the arts, wearing stereotypically female clothes, being emotional/clingy, etc, etc, etc...

These stereotypes are unacceptable... and, for their "feminine" part, aren't even close to reality. Working class women do not have the time or money to be "feminine".

What importance do you attribute to these stereotypes?

Are those stereotypes what is usually called "gender"?


Is being sex-crazed "bad"?

Well, being crazed is certainly bad; what comes to issue, though, is whether what people call "sex-crazed" is really crazed...


Are all transgender people simply closet gay/lesbian people?

Certainly not.

What, if any, are the differences between being transexual and being "transgendered"? [/b]

I seem to notice that you forgot to ask whether all lesbians are strong...

I haven't encountered that stereotype, sorry.


If you mean emotional strenght, then, yes, there is a stereotype that men should be emotionally strong. This usually reflects, in practice, in men being less able to deal with their own emotions than women are (which probably means that most women are emotionally stronger than men, not the opposite).

That's what I meant by "strong." Able to make your own decisions, to stand alone, etc, etc.


Are all lesbians "sex-crazed"?


I haven't found anyone who believes that, yet.



These stereotypes are unacceptable... and, for their "feminine" part, aren't even close to reality. Working class women do not have the time or money to be "feminine".

What importance do you attribute to these stereotypes?

They are important because they are part of society right now.



Are those stereotypes what is usually called "gender"?

Gender roles, not gender itself.

Also, transgender people can be androgynous or ungendered, crossdressers etc.

Transsexual people simply switch physical sex to match their gender identity.

Transgender is a larger category that includes transsexual people.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 01:44 pm


Are those stereotypes what is usually called "gender"?

Gender roles, not gender itself.

Also, transgender people can be androgynous or ungendered, crossdressers etc.

Transsexual people simply switch physical sex to match their gender identity.

Transgender is a larger category that includes transsexual people.
What is "gender", as something different from "gender roles"?

What do you mean by "androginous"? If you mean people who display sexual biological characteristics of both sexes, in which sence are they "transgendered", unless, of course, through the "gender roles" they choose to play?

Is it possible to someone to be "ungendered"? What would an "ungendered" person be like?

Regarding transexual people, what do they seek? Being of the opposite sex, or of the opposite "gender"? Suppose all "gender roles" were reversed - would a MtF now comform to his biological sex, because now men are allowed, and expected, to be meek, emotional, and caring, or would she now try and become agressive, cold, and harsh, because these would be the traits expected of women?

Is the concept of "gender" really useful?

Luís Henrique

[RevMARKSman]

What is "gender", as something different from "gender roles"?

Gender or Gender identity is whether one has an internalized identity as male or female. This may have something to do with hormones acquired in utero.



What do you mean by "androginous"? If you mean people who display sexual biological characteristics of both sexes, in which sence are they "transgendered", unless, of course, through the "gender roles" they choose to play?

Yes, physically androgynous people are transgendered, as well as those who identify as androgynous. These people can play any gender roles, like all transgender people.


Is it possible to someone to be "ungendered"? What would an "ungendered" person be like?

Someone who rejects the concept of gender entirely and has no gender identity.


Regarding transexual people, what do they seek? Being of the opposite sex, or of the opposite "gender"? Suppose all "gender roles" were reversed - would a MtF now comform to his biological sex, because now men are allowed, and expected, to be meek, emotional, and caring, or would she now try and become agressive, cold, and harsh, because these would be the traits expected of women?

If gender roles were reversed, she would still identify as female and therefore transition from female to male. Eventually she might try to conform to a female gender role to avoid harassment from people who accept gender roles (assuming a class society and all its trappings).

The point I'm trying to make is that gender roles are societal. Gender identity is not. It may be hormonal or chromosomal, and scientists are not sure.

Excerpt from the transgender section of the "Gender roles" article in Wikipedia:


Another example to consider is transgender people, who mix gender roles to form a personally comfortable androgynous combination or transcend the scheme of gender roles completely, regardless of their physiological sex. Transgender people can also be physically androgynous or identify as androgynous. Transsexualism also exists, where a person who is born as one sex and is brought up in that sex, but has gender identity of the opposite sex and wishes to live as that sex (but does not necessarily wish to adopt that particular gender role, depending upon whether the person in question believes that gender roles are innate).

This is how I'm defining my words.


Is the concept of "gender" really useful?

Does it matter? It's here, it's not some passing societal thing.

Is the concept of "death" really useful?

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

I didn't think it was actually possible to change your sex, which is set in the womb. You're either anatomically male or female.

Gender, people can clearly change, but your sex, remains the same.

At least, thats how i always understood things.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by BCS
I didn't think it was actually possible to change your sex, which is set in the womb. You're either anatomically male or female.

Not without sex re-assignment surgery, no.

[KC]

Not without sex re-assignment surgery, no.

That doesn't really change your sex, though. MtF's can't have babies and FtM's can't ejaculate sperm.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by lazar
That doesn't really change your sex, though. MtF's can't have babies and FtM's can't ejaculate sperm.


Of course it does that's why it's called sex re-assignment surgery, it's when a persons sex is changed, i.e. from male to female, or female to male.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

I think this is an interesting topic.

And will likely end up with deep questions, like 'what exactly makes you male or female'.

Somthing, i dont think i could answer at the moment.

What about you guys?

How do we determine whether someone is male or female? in a scientific way??

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by BCS
How do we determine whether someone is male or female? in a scientific way??

I'm not sure of the value of placing emphasis on some kind of determination criteria; i mean it is definately not up to us or society generally to decide peoples gender. However, sex is most often determined by sexual organs. However, in some cases this can be inadequate; such as when people are born with ambiguous genitals (intersex), and in other cases when a persons genitals do not correlate with that persons conception of their own sex (trans).

What would be the goal of this sort of determination? I mean, the vast majority of people know what their sex is, they dont need a scientist to make the determination for them.