PKK

[cumbia]

Let me know. Also, if theres other threads about them let me know.

[Leo]

PKK is an anti-working class organization with a nationalist ideology. They have a pretty nasty of butchering young teachers. Of course they are very much involved to drugs, I know that their leaders made quite a fortune out of it. Also, their leader, who has a horrible cult around him, was asking the Turkish government officers how he could provide any service to them.

[cumbia]

I agree with you for the most part, its unfournate because considering how the kurdish people have been treated in this region of the world they should have a "better" and more "positive" way to be represented.

[Leo]

I agree with you for the most part, its unfournate because considering how the kurdish people have been treated in this region of the world they should have a "better" and more "positive" way to be represented.

I don't think what is unfortunate is how a "nationality" is "represented". What's unfortunate is a region getting sucked into nationalism and moving away from class struggle. What is unfortunate is that Kurdish, Turkish, Arab, Persian, Palestinian, Jewish etc. proletarians lining up behind the national flag and dying for their national bourgeoisie instead of fighting against their national bourgeoisie. The key here, as always, is to look at the situation with a class-based perspective rather than a nation-based perspective. Ultimately, that's what determines the position itself. No support for any nationalism can be supported...

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Since the collapse of the USSR it has dropped its M-L roots and become a Islamic fundamentalist group and since then it has turned to terror tactics.

[The Grey Blur]

What about the Kurdish prisoners on hunger-strike in Turskish jails?

[Brownfist]

The PKK has a very turbulent history, but it cannot be denied that they have heroically fought Turkish occupations of Kurdistan since their formations. They definitely had a better working class analysis in the 1980's, which was later replaced with a more overtly nationalist sentiment in the 1990's. This is partly due to the fact that majority of the Kurdish areas remain primarily agrarian. Following th arrest of their lead Ocalan, they experienced several splits in which some sections of the PKK disarmed, whereas others continued armed struggle with differing ideologies. I think that people need to be more careful about throwing the term terrorism around as that is the very logic that is used by the American-Turkish governments to repress their movement, and the Kurdish people. However, it must be noted that they have very frayed relations with other parties in Iraqi and Iranian Kurdistan.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Brownfist+January 09, 2007 12:42 am--> (Brownfist @ January 09, 2007 12:42 am)The PKK has a very turbulent history, but it cannot be denied that they have heroically fought Turkish occupations of Kurdistan since their formations. [/b]
What on Earth does this mean? What does it have to do with any political perspective? The Japanese army heroically fought the Americans in the Second World War. Does that mean that they should be supported by socialists?


Originally posted by [email protected]
They definitely had a better working class analysis in the 1980's,
I presume that by this you mean that they had a working class analysis inbetween shooting school teachers. How anybody can suggest that a group that runs a campaign of shooting school teachers, mostly young girls from a working class, or peasant background who were sent by the sate to the South East, has a 'working class analysis' amazes me.

The PKK is an anti-working class nationalist gang, and plays an active part in entrenching the divisions between Turkish, and Kurdish workers.

As the basic positions of the Intrenationalist Communist Left in Turkey state:


EKS
Nationalism is a basic slogan used by the bourgeoisie to organize the working class in capitalist interests. The claim that independent from their class position, every member of a nation is on the same boat only serves to destroy the revolutionary potential of the working class by joining two antagonistic classes on an ideological level. Starting form this premise, it comes to say that every person has to work for ‘his or her’ own nation, own capitalist class, and the struggle for their own class interests would result in the sinking of the boat. Unlike the whole lefts claim’s in the case of both Turkish and Kurdish nationalisms, they have no different characteristics.
The basic reality denied by people who talk about national liberation struggles against imperialism is that the characteristic of the struggle of the working class liberation is above nations. The liberation of the working class can only be achieved by raising the flag of class struggle against every kind of national liberation struggle, demagogy, and imperialist war. Today people who talk about a ‘national front’ against imperialists, and national independence are in a race with liberals, who they think that they oppose, to deny class contradictions. Kurdish nationalism, the so called opponent of Turkish nationalism, which it also feeds upon, realizes the complete separation of the working class by performing the same role as Turkish nationalism for the workers in its own region.

Devrim Valerian

Enternasyonalist Komünist Sol

[Hiero]

I see alot of vicious allegations, but no sources.

I made a link awhile ago about a Kurdish uprising after the Turkish state used gas weapons against PKK fighters. Check it out.

http://www.kurdishuprising.com/Download.htm

[Brownfist]

I have not argued at any point that they have an analysis that one should agree with in terms of marxism or anarchism. Rather, what I have pointed out is that the PKK was one of the first forces to fight the illegal Turkish occupation of Kurdistan. I am not disputing that they may have committed numerous acts which should be condemned, however, one cannot deny their struggle against the Turkish state. Also, to equate the competing imperialisms of the Japanese and Americans, and the struggle of an oppressed nationality against an illegitimate force is really skewed in my eyes.

This argument that you have posted from your party seems to negate any kind of national liberation in the name of unity within the working class, however, it does not seem to deal with the very real nationalist chauvinism in the Turkish working class against Kurds and the ways in which the Turkish state has repressed and slaughtered the Kurdish population. Having said that, could you please tell me more about your organization because I have never heard of it before, and have never seen it mentioned, and cannot find out any information about it that has not been posted by yourself or other comrades affiliated to this organization.

[Devrim]

...however, one cannot deny their struggle against the Turkish state

I am not quite sure what this means. Of course, I don't deny that they are struggling against the Turkish state, but that doesn't mean that communists should support them.


Also, to equate the competing imperialisms of the Japanese and Americans, and the struggle of an oppressed nationality against an illegitimate force is really skewed in my eyes.

Today all national liberation struggles are anti-working class, and often just tools in the competition between rival imperialist powers, big or small, as the PKK was a tool for Syria against Turkey for so many years.


This argument that you have posted from your party seems to negate any kind of national liberation in the name of unity within the working class,...

Yes, it does. I don't see how you can argue that national liberation promotes unity within the working class. We would argue that it divides the working class, and encourages the 'oppressed nation's' workers to forget class differences, and to rally around support of the flag, which in fact means support for the national bourgeoisie.


illegal Turkish occupation of Kurdistan

an illegitimate force

I think that these are very strange phrases for someone who refers to themselves as a Marxist to use. With all their talk of legality, and legitimacy, it sounds like the arguments of bourgeois liberalism. Also even within that framework, in what way is there an 'illegal occupation of Kurdistan'? That is not to deny that the Turkish state has been particularly barbarous in the South East, but I think that under international law what you refer to as Kurdistan is actually legally part of the Turkish state.


however, it does not seem to deal with the very real nationalist chauvinism in the Turkish working class against Kurds and the ways in which the Turkish state has repressed and slaughtered the Kurdish population.

Turkey is an extremely nationalist country, it is true, and there certainly is an anti-PKK/anti-Kurdish feeling within the working class. I fail to see though how support for the PKK deals with that 'chauvinism'.

We believe that all nationalism is equally against the working class, and that national liberation movements are merely adding to the increasing spiral of ethnic/sectarian conflict across the entire Middle East. The only solution to this is for workers to fight for their own interests as workers.

Last Mayday, we wrote:


Originally posted by EKS
For too long May Day has been a ritual with no meaning for
the working class. May Day was originally meant to be a
day of international workers solidarity, but today on the
May Day demonstrations all we see is leftists of various colours
calling on the working class to back different nationalist groups.
Whether it be the Turkish nationalist left calling for an
‘independent Turkey’, and screaming against the imperialists
while at the same time ignoring the fact that Turkey is a
member of NATO, or those who disgusted by the state’s
barbarity in the South East side with the Kurdish nationalists,
and their hideous mirror image of Turkish nationalism, or even
the anti Americanism of the left loudly shouting “Yankee go
home”. What for? Then we can have our own ‘nice’ Turkish
capitalist bosses. All of this disgusts us. It saddens us that it is
left to a small group of internationalists to defend the principles
of international working class solidarity.


Having said that, could you please tell me more about your organization because I have never heard of it before, and have never seen it mentioned, and cannot find out any information about it that has not been posted by yourself or other comrades affiliated to this organization.

We are a small organisation formed only last year based in Ankara. We publish a monthly bulletin focusing on workers struggles, leaflets, and pamphlets. Currently, our website is in a mess, but if you e-mail us: [email protected] , I can send you PDF's of our publications in Turkish, and some of our work which is translated into English.

Devrim

[Leo]

The PKK has a very turbulent history, but it cannot be denied that they have heroically fought Turkish occupations of Kurdistan since their formations.

For a communist, there is nothing "heroic" about workers from different "nations" slaughtering each other. For the bourgeoisie, that's the definition of heroism.


They definitely had a better working class analysis in the 1980's

No, they had a Stalinist rhetoric, which they used to get the support of the several regimes. That doesn't have anything to do with a working class analysis - it wouldn't have even if they meant the rhetoric. You can't be pro working-class when you are killing proletarians and sending proletarians to death.


I think that people need to be more careful about throwing the term terrorism around

We haven't thrown the word "terrorism" around, because the Turkish state is as "terrorist" as the PKK. They are both nationalist, anti-working class factions, and both should be completely opposed.


repress their movement, and the Kurdish people.

The Kurdish "people" are divided into classes, and the national movement is a movement of the bourgeoisie accordingly which is completely against the Kurdish proletariat, which it sends to death, as well.


Rather, what I have pointed out is that the PKK was one of the first forces to fight the illegal Turkish occupation of Kurdistan.

There is nothing "legal" or "illegal" under capitalism, really.


Also, to equate the competing imperialisms of the Japanese and Americans, and the struggle of an oppressed nationality against an illegitimate force is really skewed in my eyes.

No, it's not skewed. National "liberation" is sending proletarians to death for the interests of the national bourgeoisie. It is done over the dominance over variable and constant capital.


Having said that, could you please tell me more about your organization because I have never heard of it before, and have never seen it mentioned, and cannot find out any information about it that has not been posted by yourself or other comrades affiliated to this organization.

I would like to add that I try to post the leaflets which are translated to English in the web, I posted some on RevLeft, as well as other sites. Also, in my blog, I put the headlines of our bulletin in English. The website should be done soon, but if you want to see the incomplete version, just follow the link in my signature.