The Juche idea

[Pirate Utopian]

i have some questions concerning the Juche idea.

1. i know it means self-reliance, but what do they really mean by that?
2. has it ever been used outside of North Korea?
3. how do you pronounce it?

thanks for any anwsers

[Dimentio]

1. Look at the economic system of North Korea. Total "self-sufficiency" and isolationism as far as it is physically possible to take it.

2. No, not as an intentional movement.

3. Juch-e

Jucheism is centered around Man as the independent Creator of everything, and it is manifested through socialism and Korean nationalism.

[A.J.]

1. i know it means self-reliance, but what do they really mean by that?

I don't know if this explains it in a simple way;

http://www.korea-dpr.com/politics.htm


. has it ever been used outside of North Korea?


Do you mean has a party in any country adhering to Juche held state power outwith the DPRK?

No.


3. how do you pronounce it?


Joo - cha

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

In practice, Juche means being politically independant, not letting the USA boss you around for example.

But it also means inviting foreign capitalists into the country.

[Dimentio]

What foreign capitalists? North Korea is probably one of the most isolated places after Antarctica.

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

as far as being used outside of the "DPR"K, no not really...

During the time of the USSR and the soviet bloc in eastern europe, I think at one point the leader of Hungary expressed interest in it...

Once, it was DPRK policy to 'spread jusche' (that almost sounds wrong), but I think they've abandoned that.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 01:19 pm
What foreign capitalists? North Korea is probably one of the most isolated places after Antarctica.
Capitalist from both China, South Korea, and probably other countries have been allowed into North Korea for different projects.

I'm even pretty sure there is some mountain top golf/spa resort in North Korea, or at least plans for one.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

How is that possible? South Korea is still technically at war with the DPRK same with the US. It's only trading partner is China. Here is a link (http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=32377) about what Juche is from a Juche Socialist on another forum.


GUIDING IDEOLOGY

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is guided in its activities by the Juche idea authored by President Kim Il Sung.

The Juche idea means, in a nutshell, that the masters of the revolution and construction are the masses of the people and that they are also the motive force of the revolution and construction.

The Juche idea is based on the philosophical principle that man is the master of everything and decides every thing. It is the man-centred world outlook and also a political philosophy to materialize the independence of the popular masses, namely, a philosophy which elucidates the theoretical basis of politics that leads the development of society along the right path.

The Government of the DPRK steadfastly maintains Juche in all realms of the revolution and construction.

Establishing Juche means adopting the attitude of a master towards the revolution and construction of one's country. It means maintaining an independent and creative standpoint to give solutions to the problems which arise in the revolution and construction. It implies solving those problems mainly by one's own efforts and in conformity with the actual conditions of one's own country.

The realization of Juche in ideology, independence in politics, selfsufficiency in the economy and selfreliance in national defence is a principle the Government maintains consistently.

It is an invariable policy of the Government of the Republic, guided by the Juche idea, to treasure the Juche character and national character and maintain and realize them. The Government of the Republic always adheres to the principle of Juche, the principle of national independence, and thus is carrying out the socialist cause of Juche.

[The Grey Blur]

:lol: What a pile of twaddle. Very materialist indeed.

North Korea is a deformed workers state which has seen a growth in capitalist support within the bureaucracy, just like in China, and this has manifested itself in 'Free Trade Zones' where sweatshops and other brutal capitalist policies freely operate. It does not even adhere to "Marxist-Leninism" any more but rather this Juche crap.

The planned economy of the DPRK should be defended against Imperialism but for the sake of the workers, not the bureaucratic caste.

[RGacky3]

I actually think the workers of North Korea would be better off under Capitalism, than what they are under now.

Juche sounds to me like a lot of ideological mumbo-jumbo that is really more of a propeganda tool to encourage Nationalism than a real theory. Kind of like how the theory of Maoism and people calling themselves Maoist was kind of a way to stop themselves from being associated with the USSR. Juche is a tool of the NK government as far as I see it.

[Dimentio]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarism-So..._in_Showa_Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarism-Socialism_in_Showa_Japan)

[OneBrickOneVoice]

I actually think the workers of North Korea would be better off under Capitalism

Think before you speak please. Do you have any idea about what workers live like in South Korea. They are super-exploited sweatshop workers working the longest work weeks in the entire world. Union leaders are regularly beaten in the streets and wages are a very flexible thing. This means that often times migrant workers won't be paid at all until they work several months of work. PM Chimx and ask about the South Korean Union video he posted several weeks ago, it really explains the situation. North Korean workers all have healthcare, apartments, heating, and the basics garunteed. North Korea is in a very shitty economic situation and its only trading partner is China but it maintains, for the most part, a very anti-imperialist stance.


The planned economy of the DPRK should be defended against Imperialism but for the sake of the workers, not the bureaucratic caste.

No ones defending that. I don't know what the DPRK is, but it is gone further and further from socialism.

[working class revolutionary]

Juche is nationalism combined with Stalin's "socialism in one country," as I see it. Totally incompatable with socialism, because it is an international movement, nationalism has little, if anything, to do with socialist ideals.

To be fair, yes, the bourgeois have conspired to bring out the most repressive elements of any government claiming to be socialist, or socialist inspired, so we can't just look at North Korea and say, "Oh, that's exactly how Juche will always turn out." But even without the meddling of capitalists, the end result would be a far cry from the free association of workers.

[Zeruzo]

Capitalist from both China, South Korea, and probably other countries have been allowed into North Korea for different projects.

Yes, they should have just sticked to their guns and let their people starve and die and tremble in fear (For thats the only way to keep starving people in order)!


Juche is nationalism combined with Stalin's "socialism in one country," as I see it. Totally incompatable with socialism, because it is an international movement, nationalism has little, if anything, to do with socialist ideals.

Uhm, your making no sense here. Especially since socialism is an economic system...
Whether or not Juche is nationalistic does not really mater within that context.



To be fair, yes, the bourgeois have conspired to bring out the most repressive elements of any government claiming to be socialist, or socialist inspired, so we can't just look at North Korea and say, "Oh, that's exactly how Juche will always turn out." But even without the meddling of capitalists, the end result would be a far cry from the free association of workers.

Actually, Juche is a very democratic principle. I do not know much about it in practise since the country is so isolated but studying the North Korean constitution will help a lot:

http://www1.korea-np.co.jp/pk/061st_issue/98091708.htm

I so hate it when people dont study before they comment. I forgot how Mao put it, but he said something like 'If you have not studied a subject, dont talk about it. It is only a burden to the progress of the discussion'. And considering this is a learning section, it is an even bigger burden.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

The DPRK actually has capitalists from UK too.

This guy who owned a company in the DPRK with the state was interviewed by the BBC in Pyongyang,

He said he was in a really creepy place, but everyone was nice to him and treated him like royalty.

Thats a pretty odd form of socialism. If its true.

[Zeruzo]

'he' was a really creepy place?

Sorry i'm not following here...

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:39 pm
How is that possible? South Korea is still technically at war with the DPRK same with the US.
You would be surprised. Near the border there are certain areas where South Koreans can cross fairly easily (there are restriction points further north to stop them entering North Korea proper) and South Korean businessmen have been exploiting that fact.

Also North Korea does trade with the US. All through the nineties for example, nearly all Disney animation was done in North Korean animation studios for example.

[Cryotank Screams]

My question regarding juche is, how/where did it degrade, or turn out, as it were, where on man lives in opulent, and decadent luxury while the rest of the country is starving and barely gets by?

We can track degradation of the USSR, using Marxist-Leninist theory, and see where and when it went horribly wrong, so how can we apply this kind of analysis in regards to the DPRK and juche.

Also why does the DPRK, refer to Kim Il-sung, as the 'eternal president' and how is that a Socialist attitude to have? Where was the election that put Kim Jong-il into office, or did he get this by inheritance, and how does this decision reflect on juche theoretically?

[Pirate Utopian]

i think the enternal president title is more symbolic, i dont know the other awnsers although i dont think kim jong il got in fairly.
matter of fact i do remember that Kim il sung once said that kim jong il would follow him up and be the sun that the world rotates around.

[working class revolutionary]

Uhm, your making no sense here. Especially since socialism is an economic system...
Whether or not Juche is nationalistic does not really mater within that context.

Socialism is an economic system, yes. But in order for it to work, it has to be internationally implemented. Since it calls for the end of the State, a theoretical world without borders, how is nationalism even remotely related to anything socialist? Keeping the people divided along lines of race and nationality doesn't mesh well with international working class solidarity.

[metalero]

anti-marxist idealism to justify stalinist rule in NK.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 06, 2007 09:21 pm
North Korea is a deformed workers state
How was North Korea ever a "workers state"? As the Soviet Union drilled into Manchuria and Korea, they disabled worker councils and rural cooperatives that existed in areas that the Japanese forces were unable to occupy. The Korean insurgency, divided at best along different ideological and territorial lines, fell into various factions that were struggling to receive recognition from Moscow. The Korean Worker's Party rose to the top, with the Korean Communist Party completely wiped out due to the fact that they were more closely associated with the Peking rather than Moscow, with Kim Ill Sung as it's figurehead. The rest, as we know, is history.

[Zeruzo]

Originally posted by working class [email protected] 08, 2007 01:35 am

Uhm, your making no sense here. Especially since socialism is an economic system...
Whether or not Juche is nationalistic does not really mater within that context.

Socialism is an economic system, yes. But in order for it to work, it has to be internationally implemented. Since it calls for the end of the State, a theoretical world without borders, how is nationalism even remotely related to anything socialist? Keeping the people divided along lines of race and nationality doesn't mesh well with international working class solidarity.
Socialism does not all for the end of states. Communism does.

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by Big [email protected] 06, 2007 04:41 pm
i have some questions concerning the Juche idea.

1. i know it means self-reliance, but what do they really mean by that?
2. has it ever been used outside of North Korea?
3. how do you pronounce it?

thanks for any anwsers
Juche is both religious and fascist and therefore an inappropriate topic for this forum.

[Zeruzo]

Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 08, 2007 05:58 pm
Juche is both religious and fascist and therefore an inappropriate topic for this forum.
See, this is the kind of thing that only halts discussions. Please try to study what Fascism means, read Dimitrov or something...
Perhaps it is semi-religious beceause of the Korean cultural additions in the ideology, but that does not change its socialist principles.

[chimx]

Originally posted by RedDali+January 08, 2007 03:32 am--> (RedDali @ January 08, 2007 03:32 am)
Permanent [email protected] 06, 2007 09:21 pm
North Korea is a deformed workers state
How was North Korea ever a "workers state"? As the Soviet Union drilled into Manchuria and Korea, they disabled worker councils and rural cooperatives that existed in areas that the Japanese forces were unable to occupy. The Korean insurgency, divided at best along different ideological and territorial lines, fell into various factions that were struggling to receive recognition from Moscow. The Korean Worker's Party rose to the top, with the Korean Communist Party completely wiped out due to the fact that they were more closely associated with the Peking rather than Moscow, with Kim Ill Sung as it's figurehead. The rest, as we know, is history. [/b]
While I generally agree with what you are getting at, I think it certainly took some time for the USSR to undermine the Korean People's Republic that had formed following Korean liberation from Japan. Whereas Americans in the south would fervently work to undermine the KPR, the USSR took a more manipulative tactic and allowed it exist while they worked to undermine it as a political power, eventually placing its own hand selected political figures in charge. So for a time a quasi-socialist state existed in both the north and the south, but it was never explicitly a "workers state", as they allowed for bourgeois participation. Their main enemies were not capitalists but capitalists which collaborated with Japan.


1. i know it means self-reliance, but what do they really mean by that?

I think you have to bare in mind the cultural history of Korea. For centuries Korea as a whole was called the "hermit kingdom" due to its extreme isolationism. Juche, in this sense is a conservative ideology and it really is no surprise that the South calls the North the "hermit kingdom" in its newspapers to this day.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 06:24 pm
Perhaps it is semi-religious beceause of the Korean cultural additions in the ideology, but that does not change its socialist principles.
Perhaps not.

But Juche is an anti-Marxist ideology; it denies material constraints to human activity, which are central to Marxism:


Men make their own history, but not in the conditions of their choice; instead, under the conditions handed down to them by the historical development of society

Juche denies this, and thence falls into the cathegory of idealism.

Luís Henrique

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by RedDali+January 08, 2007 03:32 am--> (RedDali @ January 08, 2007 03:32 am)
Permanent [email protected] 06, 2007 09:21 pm
North Korea is a deformed workers state
How was North Korea ever a "workers state"? As the Soviet Union drilled into Manchuria and Korea, they disabled worker councils and rural cooperatives that existed in areas that the Japanese forces were unable to occupy. The Korean insurgency, divided at best along different ideological and territorial lines, fell into various factions that were struggling to receive recognition from Moscow. The Korean Worker's Party rose to the top, with the Korean Communist Party completely wiped out due to the fact that they were more closely associated with the Peking rather than Moscow, with Kim Ill Sung as it's figurehead. The rest, as we know, is history. [/b]
Bullshit. Land was completely run fuedally before the KWP came to power.


Juche is both religious and fascist and therefore an inappropriate topic for this forum.

:lol:


Also North Korea does trade with the US. All through the nineties for example, nearly all Disney animation was done in North Korean animation studios for example.

Really? That's interesting. Got a source? Besides, that's hardly trade.


My question regarding juche is, how/where did it degrade, or turn out, as it were, where on man lives in opulent, and decadent luxury while the rest of the country is starving and barely gets by?

Well I doubt that that is really true. That sounds like some shit straight out of the grocery store tabloids. I knew something was fishy when my friend said he read that Kim Jong Il has a theme park and aquarium in his house.

Anyhow, Kim Jong Il is nothing like Kim Il Sung.


Also why does the DPRK, refer to Kim Il-sung, as the 'eternal president' and how is that a Socialist attitude to have? Where was the election that put Kim Jong-il into office, or did he get this by inheritance, and how does this decision reflect on juche theoretically?

The constitution of the DPRK says it is because he was the founder of the Juche theory and the foremost leader in liberation from Japan and establishment of a worker's state where argriculture, industry, and institutions were collectivized and distributed among the masses. It than claims that because of this, they give him the symbolic position of "eternal president". It's sorta like the founding father thing here in the US if you had to compare it to something.

[Cryotank Screams]

Well I doubt that that is really true. That sounds like some shit straight out of the grocery store tabloids. I knew something was fishy when my friend said he read that Kim Jong Il has a theme park and aquarium in his house

Actually the reason I asked this is gathered from little information can be gathered from north korea, reports of him having fine and expensive cognac and wines imported, his obsession with film and the film industry, which lead to alleged reports of kidnappings of a director and actress, and reports of a massive movie library, the fact that it is highly doubtful he lives like a commoner, and other various reports, along with scenes of the average north koreans, and from aerial sky views were north korea is basically dark as hell, compared to busy cities like in china, and such, so from this I assumed that Kim Jong-Il lives in luxury while the people live in poverty, however this is just going by information available.


The constitution of the DPRK says it is because he was the founder of the Juche theory and the foremost leader in liberation from Japan and establishment of a worker's state where argriculture, industry, and institutions were collectivized and distributed among the masses. It than claims that because of this, they give him the symbolic position of "eternal president". It's sorta like the founding father thing here in the US if you had to compare it to something.

I can see this to be rational, if this context is the case however, why is Kim Il-Sung's wife referred to as the 'eternal mother' is that to the same of affect as a first lady or something?

[chimx]

Bullshit. Land was completely run fuedally before the KWP came to power.

No, land was run quasi-feudally with frequent Japanese land owners until the end of World War II (incidentally, Korean industry resided predominately in the north at this time, with the south being significantly more agrarian). At that time, Koreans seized the land for themselves and ran them democratically under worker/peasant committees. The Korean Workers Party, through the aid of Stalin, would later come in and undermine the autonomy of these organic revolutionary institutions.


The constitution of the DPRK says it is because he was the founder of the Juche theory and the foremost leader in liberation from Japan and establishment of a worker's state where argriculture, industry, and institutions were collectivized and distributed among the masses. It than claims that because of this, they give him the symbolic position of "eternal president". It's sorta like the founding father thing here in the US if you had to compare it to something.

According to recent statements by Kim Jong-il, Sung isn't the only one trying to rule eternally. From the Daily NK paper: "Kim Jong Il has banned talks of his successor at the governing table declaring that he will continue to exercise his power as the longest dictator, reported the Mainichi on the 4th.

According to a source in Beijing the newspaper reported 'Last year, Kim Jong Il told his elite officials ‘In future, I plan to be the highest leader working for the longest period in time. Possibly 80 years, even unto 90 years.'"

--

The Korea Economic Institute published a very recent article by Michael Mazarr regarding Kim Jong-il entitled Kim Jong-il: Strategy and Psychology. It is actually apart of a new publication series done by KEI called the Academic Paper Series. It is from December 2006. Volume 1, Number 1.

Oh sweet. I only had a hard copy of it, but after looking, it seems like they published the article on their website too, which KEI is usually pretty good at doing. Check it out:

http://www.keia.org/3-4-1-events-dc-061212...aperseries.html (http://www.keia.org/3-4-1-events-dc-061212-academicpaperseries.html)

[Dimentio]

KEI is maybe not that neutral, and even though Kim Jong-Il is obviously a nut, there is a lot of exaggerations going around. Remember that he may be playing more irrational that he is because he wants to keep his regime [his material posessions + his life].

[chimx]

I suppose it depends what you mean by neutral. It certainly isn't a leftist publication, but strives to be a scholarly publisher. That is why it has produced more conservative analysis, as well as published articles by so-called North Korean sympathizers like Cumings.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

No, land was run quasi-feudally with frequent Japanese land owners until the end of World War II (incidentally, Korean industry resided predominately in the north at this time, with the south being significantly more agrarian). At that time, Koreans seized the land for themselves and ran them democratically under worker/peasant committees. The Korean Workers Party, through the aid of Stalin, would later come in and undermine the autonomy of these organic revolutionary institutions.

LOL what are you talking about? The land is run collectively today. Plus it was split in 1945 with half going to the US and half to the USSR.


In the aftermath of the Japanese occupation of Korea, which ended with Japan's defeat in World War II in 1945, Korea was divided in two along the 38th parallel. The Soviet Union controlled the area to the north of this line and the United States controlled the area to the south. The Korean people were not consulted by either power prior to this division. While virtually all Koreans welcomed liberation from Japanese imperial rule, they objected to the re-imposition of foreign rule over the peninsula. The Soviets and Americans were unable to agree on the implementation of Joint Trusteeship over Korea. This led in 1948 to the establishment of separate governments in the north and south, each claiming to be the legitimate government of all of Korea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea#History

so that makes no sense at all. Also, North Korea had the better economy until the late 70s early 80s with the rise of globalization and mass sweatshops and industry were built in South Korea. Also, the infarstructure was mostly destroyed by the Korean War.

[chimx]

Farming in north korea is a far cry from the decentralized farming advocated by the KPR in the mid 1940s. If you deny that, than you really don't know what you are talking about.


so that makes no sense at all. Also, North Korea had the better economy until the late 70s early 80s with the rise of globalization and mass sweatshops and industry were built in South Korea. Also, the infarstructure was mostly destroyed by the Korean War.

The South Korean economy was kept afloat by economic aid from the United States throughout the Rhee regime. Foreign investors were hesitant to get involved in the shaky region following the Korean War. It wasn't until the Park regime that foreign investment came in. Although, I don't know why you are quoting the wiki article exactly. What are you refuting. What makes "no sense at all"?

[Labor Shall Rule]

Chimx is certainly correct on the fact that many worker and peasant committees were destroyed out of the chaotic situation that ensued on the Korean pennisula as the Soviet and American forces occupied the area. But, if I may stress this, Kim Il Sung was a member of the Korean insurgency, and actually organized and agitated amongst the peasants, forming many associations that served to construct socialism "from the bottom to the top". But he was largely involved in bureaucratic shuffling, ideological division with many other parties in order to receive recognition from Moscow, and a bitter power struggle that ensued following the Soviet invasion. He was a member of the opportunist faction of the Korean Worker's Party, and he later went on in his first few years as the leader of the DPRK, to assassinate and execute revolutionary elements within the Party that previously participated in the Anti-Japanese insurgency in Manchuria and Korea, and were involved in various labor struggles.

[chimx]

Oh certainly. Kim Il-sung was an steadfast opponent of Japanese imperialism in Korea and fought against Japanese domination of Manchuria and Korea. However, he was always more associate with the Moscow communists, which alienated him a great deal from the nationalist Korean communists. Thus the later assassinations of communists in the DPRK. However, the KPR, which saw the spontaneous creation of worker committees to run work spaces, local politics, etc., was most certainly not defined as being communist in nature. The ideologues behind the KPR very much so wanted a popular front government, which rallied around anti-imperialism/anti-japan rhetoric much more so than anti-capitalism.