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Comrade-Z
4th January 2007, 20:52
(For all of you highschoolers who don't have an idea about "what is to be done," here is a suggestion for a project that would make tons of difference...)

Does participating in the pledge of allegiance and the star spangled banner at school (or anywhere) bother you? If so, listen up: what I'm talking about is a broad (and ideally even international) movement against institutional nationalism in schools, starting with the very simple tactic of non-participation. I was thinking that a very easy and defensible, yet potentially very effective way to confront it would be to simply refuse to participate in the pledge of allegiance and the star spangled banner at school--staying sitting down when the teachers or administrators announce that "now we will stand for the pledge of allegiance...." I don't believe there is anything they can do about that. I did it for most of last year and suffered no repercussions. They can't force you to participate in the pledge of allegiance or the star spangled banner. (And if they try, then we give them hell! Are our schools Prussian military academies or places of free thinking?! This movement could even spur the growth of student unions in the U.S., a place, unlike France, where students wouldn't know a union from an onion...)

And if even only a few dozen kids in the school consistently refused to participate in the activities, then it would have a tremendous psychological impact against nationalism. It would break its subtle, yet hegemonic dominance over school ideology, and it would be a subtle act of mockery and defiance against this piece of arbitrary authority. It would also be a participatory lesson in basic solidarity, something that many kids have perhaps never experienced, to the detriment of their political will and imagination.

In any case, most kids, it seems to me, do not consciously partake in the activities. They participate in it out of a sort of automated, unthinking conformity. But meanwhile pressure and subtle coercion to engage in nationalism in school goes uncontested.

But it's not like we even need to "rule it unconstitutional" or something like that. In fact, it seems to me that that would be somewhat of a cop-out--an easy and passive way of challenging and driving it out of the school arena. Simple disobedience has the potential to be much more self-emancipating and effective. And I think it has the potential to catch on with many students.

We must ask people, if we don't allow religious indoctrination in our schools, why do we allow nationalistic indoctrination?! In this era of global citizenship, we will not assume a stance of superiority over our sisters and brothers around the world. That is the legacy of irrational fascism, and we will not tolerate it any longer! We refuse to participate in our schools' nationalism!

Comrade-Z
4th January 2007, 21:03
I would like to pass along part of a conversation I had with a friend in high school who is trying to refuse to participate in nationalistic rituals:


Originally posted by other person+--> (other person)So earlier today, when the rest of the student body was standing up for the pledge, I had two jocks threaten me. Though they didn't actually say anything except for "stand up!", their basic bodily language definantly got the point across.
I just thought that this was an interesting addition to your message about nationalism being taught in public schools, as even if the faculty cannot make you partake in anything of this nature, the student body may still attempt to do so (though they will most likely fail).[/b]


Originally posted by me+--> (me)That's very interesting. Man, I hate jocks. Even when I was a jock, I was never a jock. I was just a student who played sports. But with some people there's a whole "traditional man" attitude that goes along with it, and unfortunately the dominant traditions in our society are nationalism, conformity, homophobia, gender bias, etc.

Getting back to concrete matters though, I think this example perfectly demonstrates why it is extremely useful to have at least a few comrades doing likewise. Some people just seem to adopt the roles of their superiors without thought. That includes students and school authority, respectively. It reminds me of a line from an awesome hip-hop freestyle, "I'm like Santana, pulling strings of the game, while slaves emulate they masters, livin' the same." Anyways, I hope things work out for you with all of this. Is there any willingness to disobey the pledge of allegiance among the student body, as far as you can tell so far?[/b]


Originally posted by other person
Honestly, the only student I've seen who didn't stand up for the pledge was attempting to go to sleep. And I think that its not so much that they choose to obey, so much as they have never considered not obeying. As for the "traditional man" attitude, I dont't think that it goes along with being a jock, so much as being a jock goes along with it, as the parents who would push their kid in such a direction would most likely hold those values...All-in-all, the student body doesn't seem very open to change. Even the most politically inclined would rather talk about the issues than change them. If the school is going to show any progress, that progress cannot be made out in the open, for everyone to see, but behind closed doors(or firewalls, as the case case may be).


Originally posted by me
That's unfortunate to hear. In any case, I would encourage you to raise the issue of the pledge of allegiance with those kids. Instead of assuming that participating in the pledge is the default, make them defend the practice with positive arguments. If they fail to do that, then they have a clear reason in this instance to go beyond just talking and refuse to participate in the pledge. Good luck with everything.


other [email protected]
Yet another interesting event/question:
Evidently one kid was threatened with a refferal by [a teacher] during an assembly .
I have no idea whether or not they can actually do this, but plan on asking [the school principal] as soon as possible.
Have you heard of this happening before?


me
Yes, I have heard of it happening before. I had a friend last year who got chewed out for non standing for the pledge. In any case, it's complete bullshit. There's no way they can do that. If that kid gets any more heat from the administration about this, I'd get the ACLU on the case immediately.

If you go to [the school principal] about it, be prepared to listen to something like this:
"You know, this isn't about politics. I support students who want to challenge the status quo. It's just that the school environment is not the place to engage in that kind of disruptive behavior. School is a place for learning, and it's my job to make sure that learning can take place in a non-disruptive atmosphere. There's also the fact that our school's reputation is on the line."
You can challenge [the school principal] on several issues:
1. If pressuring kids to participate in the pledge of allegiance isn't about politics, then what is it about? Crikey! What could the motivation be, aside from political?! Don't give me crap about "school unity", because there are a million other ways students could display school unity without dragging nationalism into it.
2. How is refusing to participate in the pledge--literally doing nothing--how is that "disruptive"? How does that impede students' learning? If anything, it challenges students to critically examine the meaning and significance of the pledge in order to determine whether they want to participate in it. Don't we want critical thinking in a school? Don't we want to raise questions? Don't questions lead to answers and learning?
3. I'd very much like to challenge the status quo outside of school, and I intend to do so, but I have no choice to challenge the status quo inside school as well because the school administration forced the issue by bringing this political issue (nationalism) into school in the first place. Don't blame me, blame the school administration for forcing the issue.
4. Concerning school reputation, don't you want [this high school] to be known as the school where students are critical thinkers and active participants in the political process? Besides, is a good school reputation worth it if it has to come at the expense of stupid, dictatorial, and indoctrinating behavior toward students, as in the case of the pledge of allegiance being mandatory?

If [the school principal] says that the matter is out of his control and that this rule is a district-wide or national rule, don't just let it drop there. Find out if he's really telling the truth. Don't take anything at face value. Get more information, and even if it is a district or national thing, contact the ACLU anyways and see if there is anything you can do.

Finally, don't forget that if the "legal" challenge to the mandatory pledge is blocked for now, there is still the "direct action" challenge. That, however, would require quite a bit more student involvement and coordination. If you are up to it, then go for it! And remember: the "law" is nothing but a reflection of material reality. Change material reality (massive disobedience to the pledge), and the "law" can't help but change. After all, what good is a law if nobody deems it worth following? Just so many words in the wind.

This is all just my advice, of course. Do whatever you feel compelled to do. In any case, I'm really delighted that you've been following this for this length of time so far. Keep me informed.

An archist
4th January 2007, 21:53
Interesting, but where does this come from?


This movement could even spur the growth of student unions in the U.S., a place, unlike France, where students wouldn't know a union from an onion...

May '68, the recent student riots, ... mean anything?

manic expression
4th January 2007, 22:48
Originally posted by An [email protected] 04, 2007 09:53 pm
Interesting, but where does this come from?


This movement could even spur the growth of student unions in the U.S., a place, unlike France, where students wouldn't know a union from an onion...

May '68, the recent student riots, ... mean anything?
I think the person was trying to say: "this could make student unions grow in the US, where students wouldn't know a union from an onion, unlike France (where student unions are strong)."

YSR
4th January 2007, 22:50
A guy at my college got pulled off the football team for refusing to take off his helmet for the anthem.

While this is mostly centered in high schools, nationalism is a key part of the education experience. Z, I think this is a wonderful suggestion. I will pass it along to my younger comrades.

manic expression
4th January 2007, 23:55
Since 11th grade I've refused to stand for the pledge and the anthem. In HS, they tried to get me to stop, but the principle knew that there was nothing they could do to stop me from staying seated.

It's good because it might get a few people to question why they stand. Also, it's a good excercise because you'll get used to standing against the crowd, something that most leftists will have to face sooner or later.

If anyone does do this, don't let anyone intimidate you, be they a teacher, administrator or student. Just remember that they can't make you do anything and there is precedent already set (so the law/a judge will side with you).

bezdomni
5th January 2007, 00:51
I don't believe there is anything they can do about that. I did it for most of last year and suffered no repercussions. They can't force you to participate in the pledge of allegiance or the star spangled banner.

They can force you to participate, or at least punish you for not participating. The only legitimate reason to not stand for the pledge of allegiance is if you have a religious reason not to do so (ie, you are not allowed to pledge allegiance to anything aside from god).

However, if you have a letter from a parent/guardian saying that you have permission not to say the pledge, you don't have to say it, but you do still have to stand for it.

I was kicked out of my health class in ninth grade for refusing to say the pledge on a nearly daily basis.

NOTE: This is in Texas - other states might be less crazy.

manic expression
5th January 2007, 01:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 12:51 am

I don't believe there is anything they can do about that. I did it for most of last year and suffered no repercussions. They can't force you to participate in the pledge of allegiance or the star spangled banner.

They can force you to participate, or at least punish you for not participating. The only legitimate reason to not stand for the pledge of allegiance is if you have a religious reason not to do so (ie, you are not allowed to pledge allegiance to anything aside from god).

However, if you have a letter from a parent/guardian saying that you have permission not to say the pledge, you don't have to say it, but you do still have to stand for it.

I was kicked out of my health class in ninth grade for refusing to say the pledge on a nearly daily basis.

NOTE: This is in Texas - other states might be less crazy.
No, I'm 100% sure you have the right to stay seated during the pledge, there is judicial precedent for it. This is in all the US. I think your school just made up their rules and/or ignored the precedent (or didn't know about it). They aren't allowed to punish you for doing what you did.

Nemichka
5th January 2007, 02:09
I haven't stood for the pledge since just a little after the beginning of this year, and I haven't gotten much crap for it. I've had some football players throw stuff (little things like paper) at me, but it just makes me see that they notice...
The only hard part is figuring out what exactly to tell people when they ask why you don't stand. It's easy to sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist and people tend to immediately dismiss you if you say anything about anarchy.

manic expression
5th January 2007, 02:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 02:09 am
I haven't stood for the pledge since just a little after the beginning of this year, and I haven't gotten much crap for it. I've had some football players throw stuff (little things like paper) at me, but it just makes me see that they notice...
The only hard part is figuring out what exactly to tell people when they ask why you don't stand. It's easy to sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist and people tend to immediately dismiss you if you say anything about anarchy.
It depends on what you want to get across. If you want to make it simple, just give a general comment that people can understand. I just said something like, "I don't agree with what the US is doing in the world" (I'm not sure if you're from the US, but you get my point). A lot of people would know what you're talking about without you having to explain your beliefs in depth. Just a suggestion.

Red October
5th January 2007, 02:34
i didnt stand at the beginning of the year, but i stand for it occasionaly to humor my russian teacher since i like him alot and hes a good teacher. one time in home room i refused to stand for it and my teacher got pissed at me, but couldnt stop me.

Fawkes
5th January 2007, 03:56
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 07:51 pm

I don't believe there is anything they can do about that. I did it for most of last year and suffered no repercussions. They can't force you to participate in the pledge of allegiance or the star spangled banner.

They can force you to participate, or at least punish you for not participating. The only legitimate reason to not stand for the pledge of allegiance is if you have a religious reason not to do so (ie, you are not allowed to pledge allegiance to anything aside from god).

However, if you have a letter from a parent/guardian saying that you have permission not to say the pledge, you don't have to say it, but you do still have to stand for it.

I was kicked out of my health class in ninth grade for refusing to say the pledge on a nearly daily basis.

NOTE: This is in Texas - other states might be less crazy.
Contact the ACLU if you get any more shit for not standing for it because, like Manic Expression said, it's not state laws that decide this, it is federal law, and they have decided in your favor (for once).

Nemichka
5th January 2007, 07:16
It depends on what you want to get across. If you want to make it simple, just give a general comment that people can understand. I just said something like, "I don't agree with what the US is doing in the world" (I'm not sure if you're from the US, but you get my point). A lot of people would know what you're talking about without you having to explain your beliefs in depth. Just a suggestion.
yes, I'm from the US, and that's about what I told them... :)

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
5th January 2007, 10:20
There is no pledge ting in Wales

Underment
9th January 2007, 01:06
Back in my school days, the was a day were we had to do the pledge and I refused to do it so I got 3 day suspention for it. I should say that originally it was going to be a detention but I thought that was bullshit and I acted out on it. Cussing, knocking shit off the tables, and throwing the detention form back at that ***** of a principle. But after awhile my teachers stopped sending to the principle for my "disruptive" behavior and learned that when something treads on my beliefs ill stand up and fight. Im sure everyone agrees, it feels damn good to stand up for what you believe in.

Rawthentic
9th January 2007, 04:59
Damn...I wanna do this, but I just feel that I don't have the balls to do it. I know that I have nothing to lose but I'm not sure... Any help?

Janus
9th January 2007, 05:29
Most of the state laws requiring one to stand and recite the pledge have been superceded by federal rulings, which classify it as a breach of the 1st and 14th Amendments.

A precedent was set here

Frazier vs. Alexandre (http://www.nsba.org/site/doc_cosa.asp?TRACKID=&VID=50&CID=487&DID=38719)

La Comédie Noire
9th January 2007, 06:07
It's not a big deal at my school, I haven't stood for the pledge since i was in 8th grade and no ones ever bothered me. I guess it differs from place to place.

An archist
9th January 2007, 10:53
Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 04:59 am
Damn...I wanna do this, but I just feel that I don't have the balls to do it. I know that I have nothing to lose but I'm not sure... Any help?
There's really ntohing to do, you just sit down, it's less effort then standing up.
A mate and myself once refused to stand up silently for the victims of 9/11, we would only do it if it was also to commemorate the coup against Allende and the countless victims of US imperialism.
(they didn't want to add that to the reason, so we just sat down and felt like rebels)

YSR
9th January 2007, 17:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 10:59 pm
I know that I have nothing to lose
Your chains.