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RebelDog
4th January 2007, 02:33
The Darkest Corner of the Mind
Posted December 12, 2006

US interrogators have devised a new form of torture. It debases the democracy they claim to be defending.

By George Monbiot. Published in the Guardian 12th December 2006.

After thousands of years of practice, you might have imagined that every possible means of inflicting pain had already been devised. But you should never underestimate the human capacity for invention. United States interrogators, we now discover, have found a new way of destroying a human being.

Last week, defence lawyers acting for Jose Padilla, a US citizen detained as an “enemy combatant”, released a video showing a mission fraught with deadly risk – taking him to the prison dentist. A group of masked guards in riot gear shackled his legs and hands, blindfolded him with black-out goggles and shut off his hearing with headphones, then marched him down the prison corridor(1).

Is Padilla really that dangerous? Far from it: his warders describe him as so docile and inactive that he could be mistaken for “a piece of furniture”. The purpose of these measures appeared to be to sustain the regime under which he had lived for over three years: total sensory deprivation. He had been kept in a blacked-out cell, unable to see or hear anything beyond it. Most importantly, he had no human contact, except for being bounced off the walls from time to time by his interrogators. As a result, he appears to have lost his mind. I don’t mean this metaphorically. I mean that his mind is no longer there.

The forensic psychiatrist who examined him says that he “does not appreciate the nature and consequences of the proceedings against him, is unable to render assistance to counsel, and has impairments in reasoning as the result of a mental illness, i.e., post-traumatic stress disorder, complicated by the neuropsychiatric effects of prolonged isolation.”(2) Jose Padilla appears to have been lobotomised: not medically, but socially.

If this was an attempt to extract information, it was ineffective: the authorities held him without charge for three and half years. Then, threatened by a supreme court ruling, they suddenly dropped their claims that he was trying to detonate a dirty bomb. They have now charged him with some vague and lesser offences to do with support for terrorism.

He is unlikely to be the only person subjected to this regime. Another “enemy combatant”, Ali al-Marri, claims to have been subject to the same total isolation and sensory deprivation, in the same naval prison in South Carolina(3). God knows what is being done to people who have disappeared into the CIA’s foreign oubliettes.

That the US tortures, routinely and systematically, while prosecuting its “war on terror” can no longer be seriously disputed. The Detainee Abuse and Accountability Project (DAA), a coalition of academics and human rights groups, has documented the abuse or killing of 460 inmates of US military prisons in Afghanistan, Iraq and at Guantanamo Bay(4). This, it says, is necessarily a conservative figure: many cases will remain unrecorded. The prisoners were beaten, raped, forced to abuse themselves, forced to maintain “stress positions”, and subjected to prolonged sleep deprivation and mock executions.

The New York Times reports that prisoners held by the US military at Bagram airbase in Afghanistan were made to stand for up to 13 days with their hands chained to the ceiling, naked, hooded and unable to sleep(5). The Washington Post alleges that prisoners at the same airbase were “commonly blindfolded and thrown into walls, bound in painful positions, subjected to loud noises and deprived of sleep” while kept, like Jose Padilla and the arrivals at Guantanamo Bay, “in black hoods or spray-painted goggles”(6).

Alfred McCoy, professor of History at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, argues that the photographs released from the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq reflect standard CIA torture techniques: “stress positions, sensory deprivation, and sexual humiliation”(7). The famous picture of the hooded man standing on a box, with wires attached to his fingers, shows two of these techniques being used at once. Unable to see, he has no idea how much time has passed or what might be coming next. He stands in a classic stress position – maintained for several hours, it causes excruciating pain. He appears to have been told that if he drops his arms he will be electrocuted. What went wrong at Abu Ghraib is that someone took photos. Everything else was done by the book.

Neither the military nor the civilian authorities have broken much sweat in investigating these crimes. A few very small fish have been imprisoned; a few others have been fined or reduced in rank; in most cases the authorities have either failed to investigate or failed to prosecute. The DAA points out that no officer has yet been held to account for torture practised by his subordinates(8). US torturers appear to enjoy impunity, until they are stupid enough to take pictures of each other.

But Padilla’s treatment also reflects another glorious American tradition: solitary confinement. Some 25,000 US prisoners are currently held in isolation – a punishment only rarely used in other democracies. In some places, like the federal prison in Florence, Colorado, they are kept in sound-proofed cells and might scarcely see another human being for years on end(9). They may touch or be touched by no one. Some people have been kept in solitary confinement in the United States for more than 20 years.

At Pelican Bay in California, where 1200 people are held in the isolation wing, inmates are confined to tiny cells for twenty-two and a half hours a day, then released into an “exercise yard” for “recreation”. The yard consists of a concrete well about 12 feet in length with walls 20 feet high and a metal grill across the sky. The recreation consists of pacing back and forth, alone(10).

The results are much as you would expect. As National Public Radio reveals, 10% of the isolation prisoners at Pelican Bay are now in the psychiatric wing, and there’s a waiting list(11). Prisoners in solitary confinement, according to Dr Henry Weinstein, a psychiatrist who studies them, suffer from “memory loss to severe anxiety to hallucinations to delusions … under the severest cases of sensory deprivation, people go crazy.”(12) People who went in bad and dangerous come out mad as well. The only two studies conducted so far – in Texas and Washington state – both show that the recidivism rates for prisoners held in solitary confinement are worse than for those who were allowed to mix with other prisoners(13). If we were to judge the United States by its penal policies, we would perceive a strange beast: a Christian society that believes in neither forgiveness nor redemption.

From this delightful experiment, US interrogators appear to have extracted a useful lesson: if you want to erase a man’s mind, deprive him of contact with the rest of the world. This has nothing to do with obtaining information: torture of all kinds – physical or mental – produces the result that people will say anything to make it end. It is about power, and the thrilling discovery that in the right conditions one man’s power over another is unlimited. It is an indulgence which turns its perpetrators into everything they claim to be confronting.

President Bush maintains that he is fighting a war against threats to the “values of civilised nations”: terror, cruelty, barbarism and extremism. He asked his nation’s interrogators to discover where these evils are hidden. They should congratulate themselves. They appear to have succeeded.

www.monbiot.com

References:

1. Deborah Sontag, 4th December 2006. Video Is a Window Into a Terror Suspect’s Isolation. New York Times.

2. Dr. Angela Hegarty, cited by Deborah Sontag, ibid.

3. Deborah Sontag, ibid.

4. Detainee Abuse and Accountability Project, 26th April 2006. By the Numbers. http://hrw.org/reports/2006/ct0406/index.htm

5. Carlotta Gall, 4th March 2003. U.S. Military Investigating Death of Afghan in Custody. New York Times,.
6. Dana Priest and Barton Gellman, 26th December 2002. U.S. Decries Abuse but Defends Interrogations. Washington Post.

7. Alfred W. McCoy, 19th September 2004. The hidden history of CIA torture
Abu Ghraib is only the newest U.S. atrocity. San Francisco Chronicle.

8. Detainee Abuse and Accountability Project, ibid.

9. Eg Carol Costello, 4th May 2006. American Morning – CNN. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0605/04/ltm.01.html

10. Laura Sullivan, 26th July 2006. At Pelican Bay Prison, a Life in Solitary. National Public Radio. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5584254

11. ibid.

12. Peg Tyre, 9th January 1998. Trend toward solitary confinement worries experts. CNN. http://www.cnn.com/US/9801/09/solitary.confinement/

13. Laura Sullivan, 28th July 2006. Making It on the Outside, After Decades in Solitary. National Public Radio. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5589778

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/12/12/1035/#more-1035

ZhangXun
6th January 2007, 06:07
To start I wouldn't go and belittle the crimes of the Nazi's by comparing them to the CIA, which with all due luck I will be joining after college. Secondly I support the useage of torture against armed insurrectionists in Iraq and Afghanistan, hell the Ethiopians literally took no prisoners in their latest sweep of Somalia. And why should torture or terror be so alien to Communists? Trotsky authored Communism and Terror in 1920 and Mao Tse'Tungs Jiangxi Red Army devised some of the most creative and gut wrenching torture methods I have heard of. (sticking a wire through the penis and up through the nose and out the ear, then plucking the wire to cause excrusiating pain)

freakazoid
6th January 2007, 06:44
What is the point of torture?

ZhangXun
6th January 2007, 06:56
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 06:44 am
What is the point of torture?
To extract confessions or information from the tortured mostly, some sadistic maniacs use torture to derive a pleasure from it though (Caligula, Nero, Vlad Dracula). It can also be used to strike fear into otherwise rebellious conquered peoples like Mao's Red Army did in Tingzhou and Rianjin when they carved out a 'communist' state to fight the Kuomintang.

cormacobear
6th January 2007, 08:18
Precedent doesn't excuse torture, nothing excuses torture. The CIA, the school of the americas, techniques, purpose, motivations, mfounding members. Many parrallels between the Gestapo and the CIA can be made. I'm sure to Latin American historians the parralels are far more numerous and obvious than any North American can perceive.

In fact i'm sure between plantation poverty and the fascist dictators and the poverty deaths US interference caused probably number well into the millions we lay at Hitlers feet.

RebelDog
7th January 2007, 05:54
To start I wouldn't go and belittle the crimes of the Nazi's by comparing them to the CIA

I'm comparing the Gestapo to the CIA. I fully acknowledge the crimes of the Nazis.


which with all due luck I will be joining after college.

Are they teaching you how to torture people in college, in preperation for life in the CIA? When you join the largest organised terrorist organisation in the world (CIA), will you be prepared to torture people?


Secondly I support the useage of torture against armed insurrectionists in Iraq and Afghanistan

I hear this word "insurrectionists" often used on tv. Isn't it funny how someone who resists a foreign invader that occupies their country can be called an insurrectionist. Why weren't the Maquis called insurrectionists?


And why should torture or terror be so alien to Communists? Trotsky authored Communism and Terror in 1920 and Mao Tse'Tungs Jiangxi Red Army devised some of the most creative and gut wrenching torture methods I have heard of. (sticking a wire through the penis and up through the nose and out the ear, then plucking the wire to cause excrusiating pain)

I've never read that Trotsky book, nor can I find a copy online to read, so I cannot comment on it. As for the 'communists' who have carried out torture I also wouldn't support or defend, I am against torturing people. You are not against torturing people and clearly believe that the US is justified in torturing people because other nasty fuckers do it. Is that all you can say, everyone else is doing it so why can't we? Remind me of the reasons your brutal, evil torturing government invaded Iraq?

ComradeR
7th January 2007, 11:32
To extract confessions or information from the tortured mostly

Torture is the most inefficient form of interrogation there is, due to the simple fact that when a person is put under extreme physical and/or mental duress they will say whatever the interrogator wants to hear to make it stop, regardless if its true or not. So the chance of actually getting useful information from torture is very slim. Not to mention that it can actually create sympathy and support for the other side.


Secondly I support the useage of torture against armed insurrectionists in Iraq and Afghanistan


which with all due luck I will be joining after college.

Odd considering the fact that most of the people in the prisons (under the US military and CIA) being tortured and held indefinitely without charge, are innocent civilians who were rounded up in "security sweeps" just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Are you saying that you not only support this but wish to participate in it?


Remind me of the reasons your brutal, evil torturing government invaded Iraq?
You know its funny, we are guilty (both in Iraq and elsewhere) of every reason we used for the invasion of Iraq, possessing WMD, unprovoked aggression, use of banned weapons, executing civilians, torture, terrorism etc.

Zeruzo
7th January 2007, 13:34
(sticking a wire through the penis and up through the nose and out the ear, then plucking the wire to cause excrusiating pain)


:unsure: Source?

WTF... would they not be dead by the time it would be in the nose?
How do they even do that?

Guerrilla22
8th January 2007, 19:07
Information extracted by torture is completely useless as the person being tortured usually will say anything to make the torture stop. Aside from that it's completely inhumane and terrible, national defense does not justify torture. Maybe the US should practice what it preaches for once.

ZhangXun
7th February 2007, 03:41
Precedent doesn't excuse torture, nothing excuses torture.

Depending on your beliefs many things can excuse torture or execution.

The CIA, the school of the americas, techniques, purpose, motivations, mfounding members. Many parrallels between the Gestapo and the CIA can be made. I'm sure to Latin American historians the parralels are far more numerous and obvious than any North American can perceive.

Yes they both operated in nations outside of their homeland, arrested people, and interrogated people. But the CIA wasn't rounding up people based on ethnicity and throwing them into boxcars on their way to their deaths. It's ridiculous, and it trivializes the true ferocity of Hitler.

In fact i'm sure between plantation poverty and the fascist dictators and the poverty deaths US interference caused probably number well into the millions we lay at Hitlers feet.

Source? This seems like a load of shit to me...I could be wrong though. :rolleyes:

I'm comparing the Gestapo to the CIA. I fully acknowledge the crimes of the Nazis.

You sir need a thorough history lesson, and no I don't mean from Lenin, Marx, or Trotsky

Are they teaching you how to torture people in college, in preperation for life in the CIA?

Is this a serious question or are you just trying to get some ridiculous answer from me? Use common sense.

When you join the largest organised terrorist organisation in the world (CIA), will you be prepared to torture people?

With all due luck they'll train me to torture and one day I can go to work on those FARC fucks in Columbia or insurgents in Iraq.

I hear this word "insurrectionists" often used on tv. Isn't it funny how someone who resists a foreign invader that occupies their country can be called an insurrectionist. Why weren't the Maquis called insurrectionists?

I call them insurrectionists because I know you guys hate it when the term 'insurgent' is used or 'terrorist' even more, even though I fully believe that's what the 'resisters' in Iraq are. The Maquis were insurrectionists, but they served Allied interests so we glorified their struggle.

I've never read that Trotsky book, nor can I find a copy online to read, so I cannot comment on it. As for the 'communists' who have carried out torture I also wouldn't support or defend, I am against torturing people.

The book was obscure but it was referenced in Robert Service's "A History of 20th Century Russia". Here is it from Marxists.org, chapter four, i had the title backwards.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/19...rrcomm/ch04.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1920/terrcomm/ch04.htm)

You are not against torturing people and clearly believe that the US is justified in torturing people because other nasty fuckers do it. Is that all you can say, everyone else is doing it so why can't we?

It is a milennia old way of psychologically terrorizing your foes and extracting confessions, and if your question is do I really care what happens to insurgents the answer is no. I support torture for practical reasons but I do not care how painful an insurgent's ordeal is in a prison, at all.

Remind me of the reasons your brutal, evil torturing government invaded Iraq?

What are you expecting me to say? fr33dumz! No. It was to open up the largest oil reserves in the world to international trade and to dispose of a pestilous tyrant who had been complicating Western policymaking in the Middle East.

Torture is the most inefficient form of interrogation there is, due to the simple fact that when a person is put under extreme physical and/or mental duress they will say whatever the interrogator wants to hear to make it stop, regardless if its true or not. So the chance of actually getting useful information from torture is very slim. Not to mention that it can actually create sympathy and support for the other side.

True, but consider what the Austro-Hungarian police did to the perpetrators of Duke Franz Ferdinand's assassination. Gavrilo Princip did not talk under extreme torture but the rest of them squealed like pigs. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed went through two minutes of water boarding by the CIA and talked. It doesn't always work, but it has been employed for milennia, and unless we would like to believe that anyone and everyone who has perpetrated or turned a blind eye to it is a pure sadist it's legacy will continue.

Odd considering the fact that most of the people in the prisons (under the US military and CIA) being tortured and held indefinitely without charge, are innocent civilians who were rounded up in "security sweeps" just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Are you saying that you not only support this but wish to participate in it?

I'd like to see your link showing captured insurgents as 'innocent civilians', and please do make it from a palatable source. If there are insurgents captured I would support, and (if I am trained and employed to) interrogating/torturing them.

Source?

WTF... would they not be dead by the time it would be in the nose?
How do they even do that?

"Mao" by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday (2005)

Information extracted by torture is completely useless as the person being tortured usually will say anything to make the torture stop. Aside from that it's completely inhumane and terrible, national defense does not justify torture. Maybe the US should practice what it preaches for once.

I always laugh when revolutionary Marxist talk about what is and is not humane as if they know fully well that they are just. It is made out to be alright to shoot a policeman ("pig" as you may call him) in Oaxcaca because of corruption in the government there, or to kill a Mexican Army soldier in Chiapas because he is against the EZLN. But it isn't humane to torture those who freely bomb, shoot, and decapitate soldiers as well as innocent people? And the U.S will never practice what it preaches, no world power ever has.

KC
7th February 2007, 05:42
With all due luck they'll train me to torture and one day I can go to work on those FARC fucks in Columbia or insurgents in Iraq.

What's wrong with FARC?


It is a milennia old way of psychologically terrorizing your foes and extracting confessions, and if your question is do I really care what happens to insurgents the answer is no. I support torture for practical reasons but I do not care how painful an insurgent's ordeal is in a prison, at all.

So you think torture is beneficial because it extracts confessions? Regardless of whether or not these confessions are true?


I'd like to see your link showing captured insurgents as 'innocent civilians', and please do make it from a palatable source. If there are insurgents captured I would support, and (if I am trained and employed to) interrogating/torturing them.

Are you fucking kidding me? You haven't heard of any of these dozens of cases of innocent people detained, jailed and tortured in CIA prisons and torture facilities worldwide?



I always laugh when revolutionary Marxist talk about what is and is not humane as if they know fully well that they are just. It is made out to be alright to shoot a policeman ("pig" as you may call him) in Oaxcaca because of corruption in the government there, or to kill a Mexican Army soldier in Chiapas because he is against the EZLN. But it isn't humane to torture those who freely bomb, shoot, and decapitate soldiers as well as innocent people?

First, shooting someone and torturing them are two completely different things. Second, soldiers are a completely legitimate military target for any resistance forces in any occupying situation, for the very fact that they're the enemy.

RGacky3
7th February 2007, 05:52
I always laugh when revolutionary Marxist talk about what is and is not humane as if they know fully well that they are just. It is made out to be alright to shoot a policeman ("pig" as you may call him) in Oaxcaca because of corruption in the government there, or to kill a Mexican Army soldier in Chiapas because he is against the EZLN. But it isn't humane to torture those who freely bomb, shoot, and decapitate soldiers as well as innocent people? And the U.S will never practice what it preaches, no world power ever has.

Funny thing about that example you give is that in Oaxaca, AND in Chiapas, it was the Army and the Poliece that invaded the peoples communities and attacked them, They were the ones assaulting the people who were declaring themselves autonomous and free (which they have every right to do). Now those who Freely Bomb, shoot and Decapitate soldiers as well as innocent people are doing horrible things, but in a slightly different context, their people have been oppressed, messed with and hurt by Western powers, or Western backed powers for decades, and they have also been invaded by Mainly American interests, and the CIA is tourturing people for the purpose of Maintaining American power, nothing noble.

You want to stop terrorists? Leave the Middle East alone, Al Queda turned on America because of American Bases in Saudi Arabia, it started because of the Soviets invading Afghanistan, they don't 'hate freedom' they just want their lands and their people left alone. Is that too much to ask? So yeah their tactics are as horrible as the CIAs tactics, but their goal is a little more noble.

In Chaipas and Oaxaca, their goals are completely Noble, and their tactics are pretty much noble as well, the Mexican state has been so Brutal defending it is alsmot shocking.

Guerrilla22
7th February 2007, 06:18
With all due luck they'll train me to torture and one day I can go to work on those FARC fucks in Columbia or insurgents in Iraq.

Just a helpful hint: you might need to know that FARC is operating in Colombia before you join the CIA, because you're not likely to find too many guerrillas operating in Columbia, South Carolina or Missouri! :lol:

KC
7th February 2007, 06:21
Just a helpful hint: you might need to know that FARC is operating in Colombia beofe you join the CIA, because you're not likely to find too many guerrillas operating in Columbia, South Carolina or Missouri!

The CIA operates internationally...

Guerrilla22
7th February 2007, 06:30
Originally posted by Zampanň@February 07, 2007 06:21 am

Just a helpful hint: you might need to know that FARC is operating in Colombia beofe you join the CIA, because you're not likely to find too many guerrillas operating in Columbia, South Carolina or Missouri!

The CIA operates internationally...
I realize this, I was making fun of him because he said he wants to "go after those FARC fucks in columbia." Actually, this kid doesn't seem that bright, so he may not know that the CIA operates internationally. Although there have been instances in history where thwy have been caught operating inside the US illegally.

RGacky3
7th February 2007, 07:00
The CIA are basically America's Thugs, America's Terrorists, and the fact that ANYONE should be proud of joining them, the fact that someone is boasting about it, is discusting. Seriously, anyone that boasts and is proud of the fact that he's joining a terrorist agency to kill people, manipulate countries, control governments, tourture people in the name of power and domination needs to re-examine his Morality.

Guerrilla22
7th February 2007, 08:42
Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 07:00 am
The CIA are basically America's Thugs, America's Terrorists, and the fact that ANYONE should be proud of joining them, the fact that someone is boasting about it, is discusting. Seriously, anyone that boasts and is proud of the fact that he's joining a terrorist agency to kill people, manipulate countries, control governments, tourture people in the name of power and domination needs to re-examine his Morality.
I definitely agree. To say that torture in some instances is okay is completely disgusting, I don't know what kind of human being would want to take part in an organization that does such things.

LuĂ­s Henrique
7th February 2007, 13:42
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 06:44 am
What is the point of torture?
To terrorise, to hummiliate, to demoralise people.

Luís Henrique

LuĂ­s Henrique
7th February 2007, 13:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 06:07 am
Trotsky authored Communism and Terror in 1920
Of course not. This was the title some publisher gave to an article called "Our morals and theirs". And not innocently either.

Luís Henrique

greymatter
7th February 2007, 22:35
Can anyone tell me just how effective torture is at extracting information? Its puzzling to me that the CIA would continue to use such brutal measures if the amount of reliable intelligence extracted was zero.

OneBrickOneVoice
10th February 2007, 02:10
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 06:07 am
Mao Tse'Tungs Jiangxi Red Army devised some of the most creative and gut wrenching torture methods I have heard of. (sticking a wire through the penis and up through the nose and out the ear, then plucking the wire to cause excrusiating pain)
eh? where'd you hear that? Link?