PRC-UTE
4th January 2007, 00:43
Interview: Peter Dubh
1966-1975
( www.rsym.org <http://www.rsym.org> )
In the first part of a series of interviews, we chart the life of
veteran Republican Socialist Peter Black, who has been a member of the
Republican Socialist Movement from its inception in 1974.
In this first installation, we talk to Peter about the Republican
Movement prior to 1969, the events that followed and how events unfolded
in the Officials leading to the foundation of the RSM.
*1) Can you start by telling us about yourself and your involvement in
Republican politics?*
I joined the Republican Movement sometime in between roughly
January-March 1966. In those days we used to read books like Dan Breen
and Tom Barry. We used to wonder if there would be troubles again and
that it would be great to have another war of independence, that sort of
thing. We thought the state had changed, the police had changed. They
were the same police that were there in the 1930s, people used to say a
lot has happened in 30 years and there were completely different people
there now.
You went to the doors to sell the United Irishman, you had to do it in
secret. Very few areas celebrated Easter, you had the likes of Turf
Lodge celebrating but few other areas. The there was the 1966 Easter
commemoration, that was the big one, there was a rally in Casement. We
realised then there were still plenty of people there who were not
active, but supportive of the Republican ideal. The thing was to turn
that support into active membership.
There was talk of setting up a National Liberation Front. The idea was
to set up Republican Clubs as a means of propagating Republicans ideals
and gaining a foothold in areas. It was more than Sinn Féin being
illegal, it was to be a new mechanism. The idea was to be involved in
every aspect of the community. We were told to be involved in Tenets
Associations, Youth Clubs and the likes of that. The involvement in
certain civil rights groups to bring to light the civil rights abuses of
the state.
The training camps in the early days were there to keep you in the
movement, I think - to give you something to do. You weren’t trained in
any specific. The first training you received upon joining the IRA was
Company Parades. You used to have a Company Parade once a fortnight,
everybody had to wear shirts and ties, you stood when the OC entered the
room. Prior to the parade there was a staff meeting, EO, IO, OC, etc.
The training officer was the guy that taught you to use the weapons.
*2) What were the first signs there was going to be trouble?*
There were no signs that were totally obvious to us. The troubles came
without warning, all the signs were there but we didn’t recognise it.
69, that Wednesday night on the 14th of August because of the trouble in
Derry prior to that, we decided to make thousands of petrol bombs to
attack the cops. We seen the mobs coming down Conway Street being laid
by the RUC, the same RUC who people had told us two or three years
before hand were a different RUC than they were in the 30s. People who
later became leading people in the Provisionals, people who were
pro-British and hostile to Republicanism. One of these individuals in
particular was tarred and feathered simply because he made a joke
because of a girl, Bridie Dolan who was blown up with explosives.
We lifted arms when the mobs came towards us. All those people who say
today, “Where was the IRA?” Where were they then? Why had they walked
away? It wasn’t the case of no weapons, the weapons were there. It was
just that the people weren’t there to use them in many cases. In fact,
do you think the B-Specials could have been kept out if there were no
weapons? Those B-Specials armed to the teeth and they didn’t get in.
Guns, not stones stopped them.
The other question who ask, if there was no IRA at the time, the Scarman
Tribunal concluded that a number of Loyalists and B-Specials were
wounded. The IRA didn’t have support, simply because those same people
had been saying and advocating years prior that our day was gone. We
often heard “there was no need for an IRA, the police and state had
changed.” The old war cry of the 60s was “What alternative have you
got?” when you criticised the cops.
The person on top of St. Comgalls school was about 17 years of age, he
held back the mob. If that guy hadn’t have been at that school that mob
would have came down and burnt all around them the same way they had
done in Percy Street. The same person was treated like dirt, those same
people that defended that area in the days before 69 vigilantes who had
been organised by Captain James Kelly.
*3) When there was a split in 70, why did you decide to stay with the
Officials?*
Well, when the split came in 70 my opinion was that I stayed with the RM
I had no intentions of going with a movement to at that time were
hostile to principles of Irish republicanism, not just socialism. They
were basically just nationalists.
The prior army split was a lot of confusion. Both McMillan and McKee
both became OC of the Belfast Battalion staff. They were like parallel
lines that didn’t meet. The Provisionals were fragmented, it was made up
of Catholic defenders on one hand, bigots on the other and genuine
Republicans who believed the Officials were selling out. There was a lot
of personality, people who didn’t like people on the other side.
Because I was there before 69, all my comrades were there when I
remained. We were still the Wolfe Tone Republican Club, encompassing
Ballymurphy, Turflodge and some surrounding areas. We were all educated
in Socialism in the days prior to any of the trouble, we didn’t want
anything to do with the old fashioned way of doing things. We were
certainly not going to give up what we thought were progressive.
The 3rd of July 1970, the Official IRA arms dump started off the Falls
Curfew. The Provisionals at that time were still taking the view that
weapons should only be for defense of the area. We were later involved
in forms of physiological warfare against the Brits, when we made
general threats they thought we were talking about shooting soldiers, we
shot judges and burnt out houses on the Malone Road.
*4) How you see things developing in the Officials?*
There was an attempt to set up a National Liberation Front, for many of
us that had be trained in Socialism that had to be good thing but it had
to be underground. Ta Power said later on we should have been open and
not secretive. We were referred to by the NLF by the Provisionals,
something we had to deny. Although the NLF never got off the ground.
Using the term alone was associated with Communist groups throughout the
world, the likes of the Vietnamese.
Catholic people then were very much afraid of Communism, it was a big
big fear in the early 1970s. The whole idea was that we were branded the
name Communist, as an attempt to scare people away from our politics. We
worked closely with the Communist Party of Britain through Roy Johnson.
Costello wanted to openly push the NLF concept, that’s were we got the
idea of the broad front from. While the Official leadership wanted to
push the idea down, Costello was striving in the opposite direction.
It was difficult to say what was happening within the Army Council and
those sorts of bodies, but we knew there were serious problems. Costello
approached members who 2nd Battalion Belfast in 1973. Costello insisted
that money raised was not to be submitted to central fund but McMillan
was aware something was going on and sent for members of the Battalion
Staff.
Costello believed if you left the movement, you left it in the hand of
the right-wingers who would eventually become a bigger enemy. Costello
later insisted he should have left the Officials early on, he although
later proved correct when the Officials felt it necessary to shoot him.
Costello knew votes were being rigged, every army unit the Costello (B)
Document went to in 1972 voted in favour. By the time it reached back to
the leadership, the MacGiolla (A) document had been passed.
They said we were trying to organise a split, we went underground and
join the Provisionals for protection if we did certain jobs for them.
Costello was later expelled like ourselves.
*5) Costello and others founded the Irish Republican Socialist Party in
December 1974, what part did you play?*
In 74 I was approached to come back into the movement, after having been
stood down from the Officials. I was kicked out of the Provisionals in
mid 74 accused of belonging to another organisation and having contacts
independent of themselves. After meeting in the Spa Hotel, people went
back to organise their own areas. Belfast was to be perfectly honest
organised, people organised Belfast quite well, the likes of those down
in Divis flats.
Divis was the only area that actually broke away, other areas had just
individuals and groups that left to form our movement.
*6) What was the response from the Officials when the IRSP was announced
and started recruiting?*
The response right away was to attack houses. To be perfectly honest, I
don’t think they intentionally went out to shoot anyone dead. They
raided our house, they came in and picked up a guy that that they
thought was me but someone realised that he was not Peter Black and he
was released, I took that as evidence they didn’t want to shoot me. In
early 1975, I left the country for a few months but when I returned to
Belfast the feud was over so I didn’t have much involvement.
1966-1975
( www.rsym.org <http://www.rsym.org> )
In the first part of a series of interviews, we chart the life of
veteran Republican Socialist Peter Black, who has been a member of the
Republican Socialist Movement from its inception in 1974.
In this first installation, we talk to Peter about the Republican
Movement prior to 1969, the events that followed and how events unfolded
in the Officials leading to the foundation of the RSM.
*1) Can you start by telling us about yourself and your involvement in
Republican politics?*
I joined the Republican Movement sometime in between roughly
January-March 1966. In those days we used to read books like Dan Breen
and Tom Barry. We used to wonder if there would be troubles again and
that it would be great to have another war of independence, that sort of
thing. We thought the state had changed, the police had changed. They
were the same police that were there in the 1930s, people used to say a
lot has happened in 30 years and there were completely different people
there now.
You went to the doors to sell the United Irishman, you had to do it in
secret. Very few areas celebrated Easter, you had the likes of Turf
Lodge celebrating but few other areas. The there was the 1966 Easter
commemoration, that was the big one, there was a rally in Casement. We
realised then there were still plenty of people there who were not
active, but supportive of the Republican ideal. The thing was to turn
that support into active membership.
There was talk of setting up a National Liberation Front. The idea was
to set up Republican Clubs as a means of propagating Republicans ideals
and gaining a foothold in areas. It was more than Sinn Féin being
illegal, it was to be a new mechanism. The idea was to be involved in
every aspect of the community. We were told to be involved in Tenets
Associations, Youth Clubs and the likes of that. The involvement in
certain civil rights groups to bring to light the civil rights abuses of
the state.
The training camps in the early days were there to keep you in the
movement, I think - to give you something to do. You weren’t trained in
any specific. The first training you received upon joining the IRA was
Company Parades. You used to have a Company Parade once a fortnight,
everybody had to wear shirts and ties, you stood when the OC entered the
room. Prior to the parade there was a staff meeting, EO, IO, OC, etc.
The training officer was the guy that taught you to use the weapons.
*2) What were the first signs there was going to be trouble?*
There were no signs that were totally obvious to us. The troubles came
without warning, all the signs were there but we didn’t recognise it.
69, that Wednesday night on the 14th of August because of the trouble in
Derry prior to that, we decided to make thousands of petrol bombs to
attack the cops. We seen the mobs coming down Conway Street being laid
by the RUC, the same RUC who people had told us two or three years
before hand were a different RUC than they were in the 30s. People who
later became leading people in the Provisionals, people who were
pro-British and hostile to Republicanism. One of these individuals in
particular was tarred and feathered simply because he made a joke
because of a girl, Bridie Dolan who was blown up with explosives.
We lifted arms when the mobs came towards us. All those people who say
today, “Where was the IRA?” Where were they then? Why had they walked
away? It wasn’t the case of no weapons, the weapons were there. It was
just that the people weren’t there to use them in many cases. In fact,
do you think the B-Specials could have been kept out if there were no
weapons? Those B-Specials armed to the teeth and they didn’t get in.
Guns, not stones stopped them.
The other question who ask, if there was no IRA at the time, the Scarman
Tribunal concluded that a number of Loyalists and B-Specials were
wounded. The IRA didn’t have support, simply because those same people
had been saying and advocating years prior that our day was gone. We
often heard “there was no need for an IRA, the police and state had
changed.” The old war cry of the 60s was “What alternative have you
got?” when you criticised the cops.
The person on top of St. Comgalls school was about 17 years of age, he
held back the mob. If that guy hadn’t have been at that school that mob
would have came down and burnt all around them the same way they had
done in Percy Street. The same person was treated like dirt, those same
people that defended that area in the days before 69 vigilantes who had
been organised by Captain James Kelly.
*3) When there was a split in 70, why did you decide to stay with the
Officials?*
Well, when the split came in 70 my opinion was that I stayed with the RM
I had no intentions of going with a movement to at that time were
hostile to principles of Irish republicanism, not just socialism. They
were basically just nationalists.
The prior army split was a lot of confusion. Both McMillan and McKee
both became OC of the Belfast Battalion staff. They were like parallel
lines that didn’t meet. The Provisionals were fragmented, it was made up
of Catholic defenders on one hand, bigots on the other and genuine
Republicans who believed the Officials were selling out. There was a lot
of personality, people who didn’t like people on the other side.
Because I was there before 69, all my comrades were there when I
remained. We were still the Wolfe Tone Republican Club, encompassing
Ballymurphy, Turflodge and some surrounding areas. We were all educated
in Socialism in the days prior to any of the trouble, we didn’t want
anything to do with the old fashioned way of doing things. We were
certainly not going to give up what we thought were progressive.
The 3rd of July 1970, the Official IRA arms dump started off the Falls
Curfew. The Provisionals at that time were still taking the view that
weapons should only be for defense of the area. We were later involved
in forms of physiological warfare against the Brits, when we made
general threats they thought we were talking about shooting soldiers, we
shot judges and burnt out houses on the Malone Road.
*4) How you see things developing in the Officials?*
There was an attempt to set up a National Liberation Front, for many of
us that had be trained in Socialism that had to be good thing but it had
to be underground. Ta Power said later on we should have been open and
not secretive. We were referred to by the NLF by the Provisionals,
something we had to deny. Although the NLF never got off the ground.
Using the term alone was associated with Communist groups throughout the
world, the likes of the Vietnamese.
Catholic people then were very much afraid of Communism, it was a big
big fear in the early 1970s. The whole idea was that we were branded the
name Communist, as an attempt to scare people away from our politics. We
worked closely with the Communist Party of Britain through Roy Johnson.
Costello wanted to openly push the NLF concept, that’s were we got the
idea of the broad front from. While the Official leadership wanted to
push the idea down, Costello was striving in the opposite direction.
It was difficult to say what was happening within the Army Council and
those sorts of bodies, but we knew there were serious problems. Costello
approached members who 2nd Battalion Belfast in 1973. Costello insisted
that money raised was not to be submitted to central fund but McMillan
was aware something was going on and sent for members of the Battalion
Staff.
Costello believed if you left the movement, you left it in the hand of
the right-wingers who would eventually become a bigger enemy. Costello
later insisted he should have left the Officials early on, he although
later proved correct when the Officials felt it necessary to shoot him.
Costello knew votes were being rigged, every army unit the Costello (B)
Document went to in 1972 voted in favour. By the time it reached back to
the leadership, the MacGiolla (A) document had been passed.
They said we were trying to organise a split, we went underground and
join the Provisionals for protection if we did certain jobs for them.
Costello was later expelled like ourselves.
*5) Costello and others founded the Irish Republican Socialist Party in
December 1974, what part did you play?*
In 74 I was approached to come back into the movement, after having been
stood down from the Officials. I was kicked out of the Provisionals in
mid 74 accused of belonging to another organisation and having contacts
independent of themselves. After meeting in the Spa Hotel, people went
back to organise their own areas. Belfast was to be perfectly honest
organised, people organised Belfast quite well, the likes of those down
in Divis flats.
Divis was the only area that actually broke away, other areas had just
individuals and groups that left to form our movement.
*6) What was the response from the Officials when the IRSP was announced
and started recruiting?*
The response right away was to attack houses. To be perfectly honest, I
don’t think they intentionally went out to shoot anyone dead. They
raided our house, they came in and picked up a guy that that they
thought was me but someone realised that he was not Peter Black and he
was released, I took that as evidence they didn’t want to shoot me. In
early 1975, I left the country for a few months but when I returned to
Belfast the feud was over so I didn’t have much involvement.