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Political_Punk
3rd January 2007, 00:40
It's probably not well known that it wasn't until after the Pilgrims through out the Communist ideal of "from each...to..." ideal and move to a free market did they finally have a much higher standard of living.

Starvation was rampant when they followed Communism - but once they allowed private property, (ie- freedom) they all lived a significantly healthier and happier life style.




In his 'History of Plymouth Plantation,' the governor of the colony, William Bradford, reported that the colonists went hungry for years, because they refused to work in the fields. They preferred instead to steal food. He says the colony was riddled with "corruption," and with "confusion and discontent." The crops were small because "much was stolen both by night and day, before it became scarce eatable."

In the harvest feasts of 1621 and 1622, "all had their hungry bellies filled," but only briefly. The prevailing condition during those years was not the abundance the official story claims, it was famine and death. The first "Thanksgiving" was not so much a celebration as it was the last meal of condemned men.

But in subsequent years something changes. The harvest of 1623 was different. Suddenly, "instead of famine now God gave them plenty," Bradford wrote, "and the face of things was changed, to the rejoicing of the hearts of many, for which they blessed God." Thereafter, he wrote, "any general want or famine hath not been amongst them since to this day." In fact, in 1624, so much food was produced that the colonists were able to begin exporting corn.

What happened?

After the poor harvest of 1622, writes Bradford, "they began to think how they might raise as much corn as they could, and obtain a better crop." They began to question their form of economic organization.

This had required that "all profits & benefits that are got by trade, working, fishing, or any other means" were to be placed in the common stock of the colony, and that, "all such persons as are of this colony, are to have their meat, drink, apparel, and all provisions out of the common stock." A person was to put into the common stock all he could, and take out only what he needed.

This "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" was an early form of socialism, and it is why the Pilgrims were starving. Bradford writes that "young men that are most able and fit for labor and service" complained about being forced to "spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children." Also, "the strong, or man of parts, had no more in division of victuals and clothes, than he that was weak." So the young and strong refused to work and the total amount of food produced was never adequate.

To rectify this situation, in 1623 Bradford abolished socialism. He gave each household a parcel of land and told them they could keep what they produced, or trade it away as they saw fit. In other words, he replaced socialism with a free market, and that was the end of famines.


http://www.mises.org/story/336


or just google:
true story behind communist pilgrims

Bottom Line: Under Communism, too many people tried getting a free ride, they felt someone else could do it for them. It was inefficent, and promoted laziness and thus it created much more harm than good and finally collapsed.

Sabocat
4th January 2007, 01:55
Just one question......




Are you out of your fucking mind?

1621 Was a bit before Marx, no?

It's funny that the Pilgrims were failing at their attempt of what could at best be described as communalism, yet the Native American Indians were thriving.

No mention of that in that dog-shit article though.

MrDoom
4th January 2007, 02:01
1: What made the Pilgrims communist?

2: What do the material conditions of colonial Pilgrim society have to do with a technocratic communist society with developed infrastructure and industrial automation?

3: You realize that private property is slavery, not freedom, right?

which doctor
4th January 2007, 02:27
The pilgrims lived in an environment where many resources were very scarce and hard to find. There was almost no previous infrastructure for them to work with. Socialism does not come out of thin air. It takes a lot of time and evolution.

freakazoid
4th January 2007, 02:28
lol, how is how they were living before communism? They refused to work and care for themselves and they stole what they wanted, that isn't communism.

JazzRemington
4th January 2007, 02:31
This article is awful. The author makes claims but offers no evidence to support them what so ever and even contradicts himself.

Firstly, he claims that the harvest of 1621 was poor, but yet two paragraphs down he says that the harvest of that year was enough to fill all their bellies, "but only briefly."
What, a famine produced a harvest capable of feeding everyone?

Second, he says that this "poor harvest" made people act like thieves. Could it be that, instead of communism making them lazy and thieves, that it was the famine and poor harvest that made them this way? According to psychology and most sociology, shortage of necessesities generally makes people act in ways they would not normally act.

Third, he claims that everything got better after 1623, because they "abolished socialism," but he offers no actual evidence that this was the actual reason. He blames the poor harvests before 1623 on communism but the good harvest of 1623 and beyond was the result of abolishing socialism. He offers NO evidence to support this. How do we know that it was something other than the change in systems? Maybe it was the environment or perhaps they leanred from previous mistakes in agriculture?

Fourth, he claims that all other colonies that were attempted failed but offers no evidence to support that it was "communism" that caused it.

Fifth, what about the native americans? They flourished under "communism." In fact, using the author's own logic, it wasn't until they were introduced to the whites' free market system that they began to fall apart.

Sixth, he does not describe exactly what a free-market is. He merely says that because they switched to free-markets, they flourished. Oh, he mentions the definition of communism, which suspiciously makes no mention of the supposed state dictatorship over the economy, but not of the free-market.

Seventh, he is using terms that were invented relatively recently and applying them to past societies.

In sum, this author has not provided credible, factual evidence to support his claim. This is mere propaganda. Horrible propaganda at that, because he's making a rather poor attempt to use history to demonstrate something isn't possible.

freakazoid
4th January 2007, 02:33
Is it true that they really lived in a communist or socialist society before? Or is that also a lie?

MrDoom
4th January 2007, 02:55
Is it true that they really lived in a communist or socialist society before? Or is that also a lie?
Communism is the doctrine of the condition of the liberation of the proletariat.

The pilgrims had a form of proto-capitalist communalism, which is not communism or socialism.

freakazoid
4th January 2007, 02:58
Thanks, I have never heard anybody ever say that they lived as socialists so when I read that I wasn't even sure if that was true.
/me hugs MrDoom :D

MrDoom
4th January 2007, 03:00
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 02:58 am
Thanks, I have never heard anybody ever say that they lived as socialists so when I read that I wasn't even sure if that was true.
/me hugs MrDoom :D
Most of the commie haters do that, they say some backwards feudal or totalitarian dictatorship failed, and offer that as a reason communism doesn't work, not even knowing what communism is in the first place.

bloody_capitalist_sham
4th January 2007, 03:40
Private property does not necessarily mean great wealth, there are plenty of current class societies and ones throughout history which have been poverty stricken.

Starvation is rampant in parts of capitalist Africa all thanks to the free market.

Means farmers produce products for the west to buy (for bottom dollar, of course) and there is a severe food shortage within their own country.

Means the incentive to produce for the west is greater than for the local community.

The destructive power of the market baby

violencia.Proletariat
4th January 2007, 20:38
Pilgrims lived in the wilderness before industrialization. If your gonna rant to someone about this do it to a primitivist. Why? Because this has absolutely nothing to do with communism or the implementation of it.

Do you really try and find the most moronic arguments against our movement and come here and tell them to us? You people are fucking stupid.

Severian
4th January 2007, 23:14
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 06:40 pm
To rectify this situation, in 1623 Bradford abolished socialism. He gave each household a parcel of land and told them they could keep what they produced, or trade it away as they saw fit.
Supposing this is accurate....

This is not exactly characteristic of capitalism. Marx points out that before you can have capitalism, you need wage labor, and people who don't own their own plot of land to farm as the please.

I might also point out that the Bolsheviks in 1917 did the same thing Bradford did.

Of course, it's not communism either. But no Marxist would suggest that North America in 1623 was ready for modern communism.

As somebody pointed out, the Native Americans did manage to feed themselves with primitive communism....but no Marxist would claim that's equal in productivity to capitalism.

'Course you might consider why the Pilgrims would initially adopt common ownership. Insanity, as the super-marketeers seem to presume? Probably not. Because the New Testament said so? Conceivably, but similar Calvinist sects in Europe didn't usually try to create communes.

But more likely: because it's sometimes a rational response to a crisis like initially settling an unfamiliar land - making sure nobody starves to death. Similar to why the U.S. adopted rationing during WWII. When they got through the initial troubles, they adopted a setup that would be more usual to them.

'Course, the prophets of the holy market, always, everywhere, totally unrestricted - can't conceive of any rational reason why any other setup might exist in some places and times. Heck, why nobody in the real world has ever adopted their recommendations entirely.

YSR
5th January 2007, 06:40
This thread contains so many brutal retorts to the article in question that I'm fairly confident the author has died of embarrassment. Least, I hope so.

working class revolutionary
5th January 2007, 07:48
I would imagine that the pilgrims did not consider themselves to be "communists" or "socialists" of any stripe.

Of course, prove that the pilgrims had left Europe to establish a harmonious socialist society or what have you, and then the argument becomes credible.

RedKnight
5th January 2007, 21:46
There are some anabaptists who've practised communal living. The Hutterites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterite), for example.

Publius
5th January 2007, 23:52
Haha, I posted this exact same article like 2 years ago when I first joined and I was a libertarian.

Jesus Christ, what the fuck was I on?

RedKnight
7th January 2007, 23:00
Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 11:52 pm
Haha, I posted this exact same article like 2 years ago when I first joined and I was a libertarian.

Jesus Christ, what the fuck was I on?
What are you now?

Publius
7th January 2007, 23:22
Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 11:00 pm



What are you now?

Nothing really.

Some sort of social democrat, I guess.