Feminism

[gunnarSUmedlem]

Feminism is the struggle of liberty for women - and for men to, as I see it. I see feminism as liberty for all, because men don't need to be so macho and women don't need to be so feminine. They can, if they want, be it, but they are ruling themselves themself. I am a feminist, even though I'm a boy.

What do you guys mean about feminism?

[Nickademus]

that's actually a very difficult question. even feminists can't agree on what feminism really is

i see is as a struggle for humanity. and you are right. it is also about gaining equality for men because men and women don't have to be subjected to stereotype after stereotype.

let me think on this more and i'll get back to you

[AgustoSandino]

I think feminism is the struggle for women to become the masters of their own productive, not reproducutive, ro maybe even reproductive capablities. It is equality, not in the symbolic or semantical sense, like the use of the new word WOMYN, instead of WOMEN. Its the struggle for women not to enter fields in the same number as men, but to have the opportunity to do so.

[Nickademus]

true it is the fight for opportunities.

but some feminists differ. some simply want to be equal to men while others want the differences to be recognized and for that reason they are given special treatment in some circumstances. ie (i can't think of the word for it at the moment) but saying that women have to be a certain percentage of employees in the workplace.

[drunktank]

I have two things to say:

Most of the women like to be
protected, so they need a
male more powerfull than them.

and

all those feminists/lesbians
with hair under their arms
are awful.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from drunktank on 1:28 pm on Oct. 1, 2001
I have two things to say:

Most of the women like to be
protected, so they need a
male more powerfull than them.

and

all those feminists/lesbians
with hair under their arms
are awful.

welcome to the 15th century drunktank. no its not true most women don't want to be protected and therefore need a strong man. i myself am a strong woman and do not need a man in my life. i've gone through many things in my life and i have dealt with them all without a man. i currently support myself and am enjoying my life. i'm not trying to bash men but they really aren't a necessity in my life.

i know you are young and you are a male so i'm going to hope you become more educated about that.

and as regards to women with hair under their arms, don't assume they are all feminists or lesbians because they aren't.

[CPK]

i agree nickademus.
drunktank, think before you act. ok?

[RedCeltic]

Drunktank, Healthy relationships, either romantic or friendships are built on perfect love and perfect trust. I took those words from my religion, but it's the way I also approach relationships.

In truth, you wouldn't get too far in relationships thinking of yourself as the "great provider" or protector, and women helpless creatures for you to 'take under your wing.'

I don't know about Greece, but if you told a woman in NY that she needs to be 'protected' you just may end up with a hand full of teeth. Western European women, expecaly Celtic women are strong and independant. However they have been subjected to a thousand years of oppression by patriachal society and religion.

If you enter a relationship because you 'need' protection, or feal you 'need' a husband or wife, that relationship is doomed to falure.

The fact that I'm 30 and single has to do with several factors. Primeraly it has to do with not meeting the right person. But also it has to do with it not being the right time for me. I suppose as Nickadermus said applies to me as well, as I don't have a need to take a wife to be complete.

[Nickademus]

redceltic i like you more and more every post

[RedCeltic]

Ha ha... you flatter me... but the fealing's mutual...:)

[CPK]

aww how sweet ;)

[Nickademus]

Quote: from CPK on 5:38 pm on Oct. 1, 2001
aww how sweet ;)

don't work cpk i like you too

[drunktank]

yup,

we live in different societies
ad I'm just a bit traditional.

Greece is enough years behind
usa in some things.

However, I have not seen
even one family that the woman
is the protector.

And I didn't say that every hairy
woman is a lesbian/feminist :)

[RedCeltic]

Why can't a relationship be a partnership Drunktank? Why does it have to be the protector and protected?
You should read 'Spiral Dance' or 'Dreaming the Dark' By Starhawk. Or even better... 'Celtic Women' by Peter Berresford Ellis. ...

A good review of that book I have in my hand at the moment says what I was aiming at when I mentioned 'Celtic Women'... " Peter Berresford Ellis shows how early Celtic society was the origional egalitarian model, where no distinctions existed between female and male, other than by quality of mind and physical attributes. We are given ample reason to believe that the early Celtic society, with its efflorescence of art depicting the mysteries of life with its interconnectedness, was the essence of the original meaning of civilization." .... The New Welsh Review.

Early Pre Christian Ireland was a matriarchal society. Clan names where passed down from mother to daughter... the later introduction of Christianity changed that, and has become patriachal, clan names are now from father to son.

So maybe I'm 'old fashoned' too... :)

[Nickademus]

well redcelt you do practice the old religion.

and drunktank perhaps you should go about changing things because here women do like being treated as though they need to be protected (or at least not all of them). perhaps things should and need to be changed in Greece. it is true that in many places women are still subjected to the rule of men but we see this as a human rights violation. Women are just as independent as men, in fact we are often more independent as is evidenced by the number of single moms in the world today.

[drunktank]

RedCeltic,

you know why a mariagge
should not be a patnership?

because in USA there
are ten divorces
and in Greece one.

And when the family
is destroyed, the society
is destroyed cause the society
is based on family.

And that's why you there have
drugs etc etc..

[drunktank]

and of course women
should be equal
and human rights
violations are awful
etc etc.

[vox]

I'm not sure that we can talk about "feminism," as such, for there are many different feminisms. Does Third Wave feminism look like Dworkin's feminism? Not really. And what about Materialist feminists like Lise Vogel? She doesn't fit in with Liberal feminists like Steinem.

So where does that leave us?

I think that the first thing to do is to try to define a theoretical foundation on which to rest any feminist proclamation, and that requires an anylsis of gender roles, at the very least. That was touched upon here, by people saying the feminism would free men, as well.

Beyond that, a scrutiny of the domestic labor debate of the early Seventies would probably be helpful, and a clear understanding of patriarchy, for I agree with my Marxist sisters that the patriarchy lacks historicity.

So, if we use the simple definition of feminism as women being allowed equal access to opportunity, the necessary question is opportunity to do what? To be exploited by the capitalist? To be the exploiter? And, does this then set women apart from each other?

Too, doesn't it ignore the commodification of female sexuality? And, if we accept the Marxist idea of alienation, which I argue is the flipside of commodity fetishism, doesn't the commodification of female sexuality then, by its very existence, alianate women from there own sexuality in the way that the worker is alienated from her labor?

These, I think, are important questions.

It's fine and good to say that we should all have equal rights, but it's much more difficult to then define what may infringe upon those rights.

vox

(Edited by vox at 6:43 pm on Oct. 1, 2001)

[Jurhael]

Are you suggesting that marriage should be master/servant? If so, realize that is the primary reason WHY there's divorce or miserable marriages. Not to mention unrealistic expectations that destroy marriages before they even fucking begin!

Women are tired of being the servants, so they leave. And I thank whatever does or doesn't exist that they have the power to do that now. I would never want to be stuck in a marriage where I am completly submissive to my husband. I'd rather not be married then.

"because in USA there
are ten divorces
and in Greece one."

You seem to convieniently forget that Greece is a small country with no more than 15 million people whereas the United States has about 350 million people. So 10 divorces in the United States can easily equate to one divorce in Greece. That is merely based on the statistics you gave.

The reason why the divorce rate is about 50%, btw is not because of some sort of breakdown, but because people seem to think that marriage something everyone has to do right away and that everyone has to do period. So, people easily end up with someone who they're not THAT compatible with. Couple that with unrealistic expectations and the realization that this isn't what some people REALLY want and BAM! You have divorce.

It's not divorce that's the problem, but too many people placing too much emphasis on marriage to begin with. Years ago, people were simply stuck in bad marriages, which affect future generations.

Now, at least in some countries, people have a way out.

To tell you the truth, I'm glad divorce is easy in the US. Otherwise, there'd be nothing but a WHOLE bunch of miserable marriages.


Anyway, You cannot compare the two countries because Greece is poor and many people there have no choice BUT to get married just to survive. You HAVE to know that. (not to sound patronizing there...)

And I have family in Greece who were/are stuck married to people they either HATE, did not love or would not grieve should the spouse die. But in the case of my grandmother and godmother, those were arranged. In the case of my aunt, the marriage just isn't working.

"And when the family
is destroyed, the society
is destroyed cause the society
is based on family."

No, society is based on the individual and everything else springs from there. (gods...I sound like a libertarian)

Just because SOME families may be destroyed throught whatever doesn't mean that they ALL will be. And believe me, some families are MUCH better off broken.

If my GREEK mother had stayed married to my biological father, they would have KILLED each other. Not because they hated each other, but because it FINALLY occured to them after nine years and two kids that they were incompatible.

And not everyone bases their lives on a family. Some people just aren't "family people".


"And that's why you there have
drugs etc etc.."

There've been drugs before family, there will be drugs AFTER family. People are going to live their lives how they see fit no matter the family.

Family is NOT the end all be all of everyone's lives nor should it be.

And if you want to know when the female becomes the "protector", ask single mothers and women whose children have been in danger.

And Red, you rule! :D


Don't get me wrong here, I'm not anti-family by any strech of the imagination. I just think that it's just as bad to place TOO much emphasis on marriage and family as it is to place too much on the individual.

(Edited by Jurhael at 2:13 am on Oct. 2, 2001)

[RedCeltic]

Oh wow Jurhael ... that was everything I wanted to say and more! I'm drawing quite a blank now... but would only add that women are the most oppressed people on earth. More than any other group of humans. The Taliban's mistreatment of women is in the news right now. But there are women who are being treated just as bad or worse everywhere in the world, and yes even in good ol' USA. But I'm talking in terms of individuals... and not as extensive as state sponsored oppression.

You want to talk about equality? You must first view all people as having equal worth. And women will never be free from oppression if they are to be servents of their master husbands. And Revolution starts at home. If they are servents at home, they will be servents at work.

There is no easy answer for this... these patriachal attitudes are long ingraned in the male population of our spiecies.

When I first started reading deeply into my religion I was turned on to works by Starhawk. It was hard for me to read at first... because i was 15 or 16, but also her strong feminist message was hard for me to grasp. Being male, and inexperienced in life I suppose is why it shook me up a bit.

And I suppose it took time, and further reading, and experience in life to fully understand what she was saying.



(Edited by RedCeltic at 10:21 pm on Oct. 1, 2001)

[Nickademus]

redcelt and jurhal (sorry if i butchered your nick) you guys rock. i don't think i can add much except that is indeed relationships that are the true partnerships that are the ones that last.

[Nickademus]

we actually had a discussion in our international law class the other day about the feminist perspective on international law. amongst a class of 65 well educated people, a protion of whom consider themselves femenists, couldn't agree on what feminism is. we also couldn't agree on wether the presented feminist view of int'l law was acceptable.

unfortunately feminism doesn't have a lot of subgroups like politics does. all feminists (with a few exceptions) are lumped together while leftists (for example) can call themselves communists or socialists etc.

see the problem?

[drunktank]

Quote: from Jurhael on 1:55 am on Oct. 2, 2001
Are you suggesting that marriage should be master/servant? If so, realize that is the primary reason WHY there's divorce or miserable marriages. Not to mention unrealistic expectations that destroy marriages before they even fucking begin!


hell, I didn't say a protector/protecded
is a master/servant.




Women are tired of being the servants, so they leave. And I thank whatever does or doesn't exist that they have the power to do that now. I would never want to be stuck in a marriage where I am completly submissive to my husband. I'd rather not be married then.


sure ..




"because in USA there
are ten divorces
and in Greece one."

You seem to convieniently forget that Greece is a small country with no more than 15 million people whereas the United States has about 350 million people. So 10 divorces in the United States can easily equate to one divorce in Greece. That is merely based on the statistics you gave.

The reason why the divorce rate is about 50%, btw is not because of some sort of breakdown, but because people seem to think that marriage something everyone has to do right away and that everyone has to do period. So, people easily end up with someone who they're not THAT compatible with. Couple that with unrealistic expectations and the realization that this isn't what some people REALLY want and BAM! You have divorce.

It's not divorce that's the problem, but too many people placing too much emphasis on marriage to begin with. Years ago, people were simply stuck in bad marriages, which affect future generations.


YOU told it.
50% means that in USA one out of
two marriages fails.
In Greece it isn't so.





"And when the family
is destroyed, the society
is destroyed cause the society
is based on family."

No, society is based on the individual and everything else springs from there. (gods...I sound like a libertarian)



I really don't like the western way of thinking.





"And that's why you there have
drugs etc etc.."

There've been drugs before family, there will be drugs AFTER family. People are going to live their lives how they see fit no matter the family.



Destroyed families mean
psychological problems
that mean drugs, etc.

[Nickademus]

that's not true. many of my friends do drugs (including to a smaller extent myself) and none of them come from broken homes. similarly with psychological problems. are you saying there are no people with psychological prolems and there are no drugs in greece

[drunktank]

well,

sure there are drugs/psychological problems
but to a smaller extent. And they exist because
we start imitating the western lifestyle.

Those Americans will cause problems one day
to the Atlantic's life with the drugs they piss.

[CPK]

it's always the americans...;)

[Jurhael]

"And they exist because
we start imitating the western lifestyle."

The drinking and smoking the Greeks consume even MORE than Americans(and which ARE drugs) have been done LOOOONG before the US became a superpower and many drugs in many countries have been around looooong before the US even existed.

Drug use is EVERYWHERE and it's not going ANYWHERE.

Same could be said for psychological problems and not every broken family has them and not every family that remains "together" is without them(hello? Abusvie families? controlling, oppressive families? Families where people HATE each other?). Quit assuming that a family that stays together is without abuse, problems or other things that cause problems.

NO ONE can afford to generalize.


"imitating western lifestyle" has NOTHING to do with it.

"Those Americans will cause problems one day
to the Atlantic's life with the drugs they piss. "

Europe consumes more alcholol, cigarrettes AND drugs more than the US ever could. I say Europe is lucky that it even could. Drugs are decriminalized in Scandanavia and pot is LEGAL in the Netherlands. You don't see them falling apart because they don't draw too much attention to it through drug laws. And you don't see THEM coming from broken homes.

There's more drug users EVERYWHERE than you can even imagine and not all of them come from broken homes nor do they come from any set sort of family.

The US has drinking laws, a person could end up going to jail for 10 years for having pot and don't get me started with what goes on in other countries to people who even THINK of smoking a fucking joint or even drinking!

Quit blaming the US for everything that goes wrong. It's not like anyone FORCED anyone to imitate ANYTHING.

Whatever happened to personal responsability? Christ...

I CAME from a broken home. I do not do drugs and nor do I have any debilitating psychological problems.

(Edited by Jurhael at 10:29 pm on Oct. 2, 2001)


(Edited by Jurhael at 10:53 pm on Oct. 2, 2001)

[CPK]

i don't come from a broken home niether...;)

[Jurhael]

That's cool. :)

I sounded a bit inflammatory in the previous post because I believe that there's no one thing that's to blame for any problems and there's no one thing that will fix any problems.

Any drug USE is not the problem, drug ABUSE IS.

Divorce in and of itself is NOT a problem, the WAY divorce is handled(kids being used as pawns, parents not bothering to let their kids know that it's not their fault, etc) is the problem. Family is clearly not a problem, the WAY many people IN familes act IS a problem.

Oh, btw, not every American couple that divorces even HAS children. I'd say that's true everywhere.


(Edited by Jurhael at 10:57 pm on Oct. 2, 2001)

[vox]

One thing about the divorce rate in the US--that includes multiple marriages. For example, if Jurhael gets married and does not get divorced, but I get married and divorced twice, one might say, looking at that sample, that two out of three marriages end in divorce. The point being that people who marry and divorce multiple times need to be factored in to the statistic, which serious sociologists do.

vox

[Jurhael]

Ah yea...that is true...I didn't think of that...

[CPK]

this is what i think.
men have one reproductive organ while women have the other. we need each other to go on. i don't like we people make generalizations about women. and talk shit like "you should be doing the dishes" "you should be cooking" etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc...
with that attitude, do you think you will get far with girls?

[Jurhael]

In this day and age? Hell no! :lol

[CPK]

it's what it is sometimes.
: it's sad isn't it?

[Chancho]

Talk of feminism for me can be reduced to the same principle that founds all of my values in life - respect - for self and for others. There would be no need to defer to discussions of opportunity, stereotyping, gender roles etc if the fundamental premise of respect was given primary consideration.

To put it very simplistically, true respect for one's fellow human beings necessarily includes not evaluating that person's function in life based on their gender - let alone dictating to them based on any criteria!

For example, RedCeltic has formulated his views based on what I consider to be an obvious ethic of respect for his fellow human beings. That principle had to come first in order for RedCeltic even to form an interest in feminist issues, let alone make such progressive conclusions.

As a strong self-respecting female, I also want to avoid thinking of myself too strongly in terms of my femininity. It cannot be a factor in the way I choose to live my life - with the notable exception of childbirth - which is merely biological reality. No, that doesn't mean I 'deny' my femininity, on the contrary, it simply means that I reject too much focus on gender - in fact I think that is part of the problem.

On the flipside, it would be very difficult to educate someone who has gender-biased thinking, if that person is devoid of any fundamental respect for others. Indeed, the argument is circular because if they subscribed to the principle of respect, they wouldn't make gender-biased conclusions to begin with.

(Edited by Chancho at 7:19 am on Oct. 3, 2001)

[RedCeltic]

actualy it's a religious reason... inter connected with ethnicity, and humaninterianism.. but good point. Also, great point Vox...

(

(Edited by RedCeltic at 5:58 am on Oct. 3, 2001)

[Moskitto]

in the 14th century John Ball was put in prison for saying Men and Women were equal. He then wrote a book on socialism and egalitarianism which had many ideas echoed by Karl Marx 500 years later.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from CPK on 6:45 pm on Oct. 2, 2001
this is what i think.
men have one reproductive organ while women have the other. we need each other to go on. i don't like we people make generalizations about women. and talk shit like "you should be doing the dishes" "you should be cooking" etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc...
with that attitude, do you think you will get far with girls?


Strange actually... unless you came into contact with someone who thinks like this, you'd think this kind of thinking is pritty much dead here in the west right? I have actualy met people who think like this, and it's quite unsettling.

For example, I was working with this guy installing a boiler in this old man's basement. The customer gave the usual chit chat... asked if we where married... etc... and for some strange reason my partner get's into saying how his wife works and he doesn't believe in women working. He tried to force her to stop working, but she refused to quit because she loves her profession.

He brought up the Bible, and said that " Wives must obey their husbands as they would the lord!" and said he's sad for his wife, because she's going to hell.

I pulled him to the side and said, " man your making me sick... let's not have this conversation in front of a customer. "

Then the the old man starts in.. ( I mean really old in his late 80's early 90's) and basicly said he should put his foot down! That the man is the master, and women are only on earth to serve man... (more Biblical refrences..) and basicly told him to beat her, and humiliate her in front of her children.

then in walked his wife... this sweet little old lady with coffee and cookies... I made the excuse that I needed a tool from the truck... I just had to get out of there for a bit...

I think most men aren't as extreme as this. But it is truly hard to tell what a person's deeper fealing are. But how can you truly tell if this sweet loving man you fell for isn't going to come home one day and put you through a wall?

I mean, before this... the guy I mentioned seemed like a decent enough guy. Seemed deeply religious and moral.

anyway... I'm really not saying much here... I just can't believe people think like that in the 21's century.

[Chancho]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 11:50 am on Oct. 3, 2001
actualy it's a religious reason... inter connected with ethnicity, and humaninterianism.. but good point. Also, great point Vox...

(

(Edited by RedCeltic at 5:58 am on Oct. 3, 2001)


Well, let's just agree that you wouldn't subscribe to certain religious values if they didn't correlate with your personal ethic re women and respect generally. It's the chicken and the egg argument!

Btw, depressing story about the old bastard and your workmate - but unfortunately, not unusual.

I once rented a townhouse with some friends privately from a crusty old retired navy guy - Captain Newy. At one point in a conversation between all of us and the Captain about the garden, I said something trivial and he looked at me with pure venom and said 'I do not want to hear anything from a female, I'll thank you not to offer me your opinions'. Well, you might as well have knocked me down with a wrecking ball - I was totally and utterly floored! He then found himself at the receiving end of a 100 decibel tirade from me about respect and how DARE he speak that way to me etc etc.

I have no doubt that me losing it like that only reinforced his view that women are 'to be seen and not heard' - but he actually shut up and left looking pretty mortified. I wish I'd handled it better but I'd never encountered such direct chauvanism and I felt sick thinking of the generations of women that lived day in day out with attitudes such as these - not to mention those that still do!

(Edited by Chancho at 3:36 am on Oct. 4, 2001)

[RedCeltic]

I was fairly young when drawn to Wicca, so it's a bit hard to contemlate exactly what the fealing where when drawn to it. It just seemed my natural path.
Mostly what I ment, was that it was through religous studies and experience that formed my resolve, and 'radical' ideas about human rights. There are many Feminists involved in the religion, for it's not a patriachal one.

Perhaps however, it was ethnic and humaniterian reason that attracted me to it, but as I said I was young.

People like Captain Newy, and the two men I mentioned, they seem almost cartoonish. It's quite hard to think of someone being so extreme. Perhaps if people where more willing to distance themselves from gender roles and think, " how would I feal... if Captain Newy said that to me?" And in truth, after all the contemplating, it's truly impossible for an individual to see things compleatly objectivly. I still remain a heterosexual white male, so I suppose I will always have the perspective on things.

But if someone told me they didn't want my opinion, simply because of a human factor I was born with (sex,race, whatever) It would be very hard not to tell him where he can stick his garden trowl.

[Drifter]

i just belive that women and men are equal,,
where does it become complicated?

[vox]

Well, Drifter, it can become complicated in a few ways.

For example, you're in school (and I don't know your gender, so this isn't about you, just speaking in general) and girls show their "school spirit" (whatever that is) by donning short skirts and juming up and down to celebrate the accomplishments of boys. It's just part of the scenery, not anything you think about, but it has an effect on the way the world is viewed.

Or, you're at work when a female supervisor goes to someone's cubicle and there are three guys looking at some scantily clad woman on the computer screen. She doesn't have to say anything about it, but she's immediately excluded, she doesn't "get" it. She's not one of the boys.

Or, you hear women complaining about how lazy their husbands are, husbands who would say that men and women should be equal, but somehow the woman ends up doing all or most of the cooking and cleaning. And laundry.

It can be manifested in small ways, but it goes to the larger issue just what being equal means. Didn't Orwell write something like, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others?"

Recently a woman, a state senator, in the US bemoaned the fact that women got the right to vote. According to her, if men had been taking care of women and children like they are supposed to, women never would have wanted the right to vote.

Remember the Promise Keepers? They were a group, still around I suppose, that said men should lead the household. Here's a quote from a female supporter:

"Promise Keepers offer women a new kind of freedom, liberation through submission." Bunny Wilson, member of the PK female auxiliary.

When such things can still be said, still be as culturally embedded as to make such things utterable, then we really have to question just what kind of "equality" we mean.

vox

[Nickademus]

excellent post vox.
it comes down to the issue os substantive equliaty versus general equality. should women be completely equal or should they be given a helping hand because they have suffered so much oppression in the past.
sorry i''d post more but i'm about to leave town for the weekend

[Chancho]

Outstanding points vox.

You should add that to your Orwellian list - submission is liberation.

[vox]

Thanks, folks. I appreciate it.

I think that Nickademus puts his (her?) finger on the button when talking of substantive equality. And, if you take the next step back from the idea of women's liberation, you have to ask, "Liberation from what?" I know that the gut reaction is the patriarchy, but we have to be able to define it. Like I said before, the patriarchy, to my way of thinking, lacks historicity. So, if it's not the patriarchy, then what? I'd be interested in your comments.

For me, it's economic oppression, and I think that you'll find that now, when so often both husband and wife have to work, especially if there are children involved, we see that women are gaining economically, though culturally there isn't a corresponding change. The question is why? Is this an attempt by the ruling class (men) to hold on to their power, as Marx said any rulling class would do, by commodifying women? Or, is this commodification just an adaptation of previous patriarchal control?

I know where I stand, but I think that these are important questions.

vox

[RedCeltic]

hmmm as always thought provoking stuff Vox...

(BTW.. Nickadermus is a she.. )

In my mind I think that the problem has to do with phycological conditioning from family and community.

It's one thing for people to say they support a particular cause. But to act on that is quite a diffrent thing.

If a man and woman both work, but the woman still ends up doing most of the housework, even though the male has expressed views of equality... I think this is an example that these values are ingraned in our society. Man will fall into the role of master, and woman into the role of servent, in cases of blatent ignorence... but also because the have been conditioned this way from society.

Some would say that it's human nature. I think drunktank was implying this. However I disagree and think it's our society's fault. However, these problems can only be addressed on a case by case bases.

Once as you have conditioned a people to think a particular way for 1000 years, it's quite hard to change that... particularly in several generations.

[RedCeltic]

I stole this from NOW (National Organisation of Women).. It's a list of reasons to join...

You're a sales manager for a TV chain's local affiliate. You know you're making $10,000 a year less than a man with the same job in a similar-sized market.
You're trying to juggle the demands of raising your toddlers and the constant stress of your critical care nursing job. Your husband doesn't do diddly at home.
You're a college student who was raped on a date with a guy you thought you could trust. You don't socialize anymore and your grades are slipping.
You leave your marriage after 11 years of physical and emotional abuse. You work double shifts to support your kids, but then a heart attack with no health insurance forces you onto welfare.
You're a lesbian who feels isolated. But you're afraid that if you come out, you'll lose custody of your kids.
You finally launched a new ad agency owned and staffed by African-American women. Business is booming, but when you go to the bank for a loan, they look at you like you're from Mars.

[gunnarSUmedlem]

Quote: To be a girl is walking in too small shoes. To be feminist is knowing that the shoes are to small and the feet are not too big.

That quote came from a swedish book about feminism. Feminism has since 1999 been quite popular in Sweden and Eastern Norway. It's IN with feminism! The feminism conferance in 5th-7th of October, Oslo were big. Don't be apathic, another world is possible.

[Moskitto]

my desktop wallpaper proves a point

http://www.moskitto.f2s.com/desktop.jgp

When my friends see it they always concentrate on the Girl which proves the point made in the text.

ps. there's loads of others on the communist party of Australias website (who I considered joining but I was to young and not an Aussie resident)

http://www.cpa.org.au

[Chancho]

Moskitto - bit of trivia for you - the CFMEU Australia (Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union) is pure commie. I know that might not seem unusual, but you actually have to be a member of the Communist Party of Australia to join the union. That means everyone working in those industries is at least a bit red - if not completely.

[Che Jexster]

First of all i would like to say that Drunk Tank seems to have serious issues with minorities (namely women and homosexuals). I do think however that there are fundamental differences in the behavioral patterns of men and women. I think that feminism is recognizing these differences and not inventing ones that really have no truth.
I dont see why a relationship has to consist of a strong and weak party. In fact I don't think such a relationship has much of a chance at succeeding. You talk of marriage as a parasitic relationship not symbiotic.
I can't remember who said this next bit, but someone mentioned that society is based on the family. Why does it have to be? I do think the family is a very important part of helping the future youth, but honestly if we took more interest in our neighbors problems i think that things would be much better than they are. The family is as important as it is because we distance ourselves from each other. Spouse, and child beating wouldnt be a problem if neighbors and friends convinced the violent party to get help and took more action on behalf of the child. "It takes a village to raise a child" so to speak.
I think the only way to emancipate women, and men for that matter has to do with getting rid of this image craze everyone seems to have. If men and women could look past looks, and not judge each other on them so much, i think that we'd realize we aren't that different after all.

[drunktank]

emetic western way of thinking

[Che Jexster]

Way to argue down a statement without offering a contrary point drunktank. Your politics mustn't be very solid if as in depth as they get are "women are weak, westerners dont know anything, everything is bad, i have no answers". Try adding substance to your statements (no blantant sexism does not count as substance). Let me know when you find substantial arguments.

[drunktank]

women can produce as much as men.
they can protect themselves.
they are not inferior in any way.

I am not a Taleban.

I oppose to feminism in the grade
it tends to destroy family which
means destroyed society.

Yes, family IS the base of society.

-

And western thought IS ridiculus. :P

I need a dictionnary.
I cannot express myself in English.

[drunktank]

And I have nothing with gays.

Anyone can use his genitals
as he wants if he's away
from my ass.

[Che Jexster]

You seem to just be going back on everything you've already said. You said women got into relationships because they couldn't protect themselves, and now you're reneging. If family is the entire basis of the family as you say then can an orphan never hope to be a valuable member of society? Cause that seems to be implied. You seem to be racking up stereotypes and prejudices by the second. Now all westerners are ridiculous.
Explain to me how feminism destroys families, which are more important to society than peoples rights. The economy is a basis for society (at least in all the pitiful ones we have) also, and workers rights and envronmental regulations get in the way of that, so why not get rid of them? For tearing the economy up.
There is no justification for opression.

[RedCeltic]

You made a good point there Che Jexster, if familly is the basis of society... than what about people who grow up in orphanenges? Do they have no chance to be vital members of society? Do all orphans grow up to be murderers, theves, and dregs of society.

And what is this crap about not liking us in the western world Drunktank? I thought Christianity was based on love an compassion.. I was obviously wrong... you are such a biggot.

Did it ever occur to you that Karl Marx lived in the western world? Born in Germany... lived in the UK? You've said you've read Marx and considered yourself an Marxist, yet you are against western way of thinking? Your not fooling anyone but yourself.

[Jurhael]

Uhhh, Red? Christianity IS built on love and compassion. At least it's supposed to be.

[RedCeltic]

Yea I know Jurhael that's kind of my point

[drunktank]

I like the way Marx analyses capitalism.
I'm no more a marxist cause Marxism includes atheism.

I love westerners/gays/women more
than you can imagine.

However, I find western philosophy/science idiotic
and bad imitation of ancient greek.

I know I seem a fool and this does not annoy me.
It's because we have different ethics.

You grew up in an amoralistic society
and find true love difficult but
I have it in my blood cause I live in it.

NO this is not an insult, just love.

There is a nice greek poem "Our neighborhoods madman". If you happen to fin it ..

[celticsocialist]

RedCeltic, you said that early celtic women don`t need a man to protect them, well it seems that neither do the modern celtic women. If Drunktank fancies telling a girl from Easterhouse that she needs him to protect her then I wont stand in his way :)

[booga]

Quote: from drunktank on 1:28 pm on Oct. 1, 2001
I have two things to say:

Most of the women like to be
protected, so they need a
male more powerfull than them.

and

all those feminists/lesbians
with hair under their arms
are awful.


drunktank, i believe in your perspective for it could also go the other way as well eccept for the hair under the arms...while women dont mind hair under the arm area on men, some women actually grow theirs so that they are sexually unattractive to a man.

[booga]

Quote: from drunktank on 9:51 pm on Oct. 1, 2001
RedCeltic,

you know why a mariagge
should not be a patnership?

because in USA there
are ten divorces
and in Greece one.

And when the family
is destroyed, the society
is destroyed cause the society
is based on family.

And that's why you there have
drugs etc etc..


when chosing a mate seek a good "negotiator" but i think the women here on the bb have made great points, myself i admire Hilda-Che's wife for believing that women should be financially stable before getting married.

[Son of Scargill]

Perspectives and attitudes tend not to change overnight,especially in less devoloped countries.Lack of access to info and differing opinions will always affect the growth of newer ideas.Even in the west the emancipation of women has really only gathered momentum in the last forty years or so.But the Old Guard of Patriarchy is still quite strong in England.There are still differences in wages between men and women in many workplaces here.But the battle IS being won.

As for RedCelts tales of the strength of Celtic women,I can personnally vouch for that.A lot more independant,and all the better for it!Also during the Highland Clearances,after the 1745 Rebellion,it was the women that the English soldiers feared the most when they were burning the populace out of their homes.The men had been mentally beaten by the defeat at Culloden.The women hadn't given up!
Never underestimate the strength of a woman Drunktank!

[Guest1]

I've read none of the posts in this thread, but it's interesting that while other threads in this socialist message board are around 2-3 pages long, the one about feminism is 7.

[Nickademus]

that's partiallly because there are women on this board (i.e. me) who also consider themselves feminists.

[Valkyrie]

good resource:

http://www.cddc.vt.edu/feminism/




(Edited by Paris at 10:07 pm on June 20, 2003)

[Leech]

I think Feminism is a way for women to fight against sexism. Because now a days there are alot of men who treat women like garbage and thats what i feel Feminism is against. its also a good movement, i support it all the way.

[RedCeltic]

RedCeltic, you said that early celtic women don`t need a man to protect them, well it seems that neither do the modern celtic women. If Drunktank fancies telling a girl from Easterhouse that she needs him to protect her then I wont stand in his way

lol... how right you are Comrade & Fellow Celtic fan... Women can make some men look tame in some of those places.. ;)

And... I think the feminism topic is so long because it's an issue that's long ignored... and because many women are drawn to socailism through feminism.

I've recently been posting frequently on a right wing xtian board... and was so disgusted at these people... even women... using Rush's disgusting prase "Feminazi"...

[Fires of History]

Any feminism that prescribes anything more or less that total equality for all people is bullshit.

If women were on top, matriarchy would produce the same evils patriarchy did all over again.

Feminism is a label attached to an ideology of equality and freedom. Feminism, at it's core, it the quest for all individuals to live equally.

Unfortunately it's label muddies this truth.

Power to the People,
Trance

[anarchoveganLAM]

I, a male, am a feminist. I do not believe in a male dominated society, or domination of any type. Feminism to me means equal rights between all, not domination of a female. Feminism ties in perfectly with veganism, if you look into it. A feminist is equality between men and womyn, veganism is equality between humyn and animal, and anarchism is equality between all things.

[Michael De Panama]

Yes. I am also a feminist with a penis.
Feminism is not about overpowerment of women. It's about equality. Any fat angry lesbian can talk about how much she hates men, and claim to be a feminist, just as any son of a ***** murdering, greasy, lying, shit-faced pig **** can step into power and claim to be a communist.

[vox]

Once again, folks, try Lise Vogel on for size, eh? Don't shrink from Marxist Feminism, though she'd probably call herself a Materialist Feminist.

Regardless, good stuff that you'll probably have to get off the Net.

It will make you think differently about feminism. I promise.

vox

[Rosa]

tO mICHAEL DE pANAMA: hope that you don't consider all the lesbians as fat, greasy, lying, hate men etc.
Sometimes girl can't find gentle man, and can't stand to be involved with rough one, bcs he would destroy her, okay?...and am sure that you are aware of phisical and psycical needs related to "other".
My point is: as I can see, there are a lot of woman which doesn't want to take responsibiliy for their own life, isn't it much easier to marry some guy, and if he become succesfull, than she will be "a wife of professor", or of "great artist", and if he doesn't succeed, she can blaim him for her miserable life.
That's something culture does provide for a woman, but not for a man to do. I think that lot of man would choose to be "oppressed", just to avoid responsibility for their lives. But culture doesn't provide tham to do so.
Just wanted to defend poor males, bcs feminists are always accusing them that they are oppressors, and it's not only about them.

[militantmindLAM]

women don't have to prove themselves in any way so i think that they are the more secure and therefore better.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 8:11 am on Mar. 8, 2002
Yes. I am also a feminist with a penis.
Feminism is not about overpowerment of women. It's about equality. Any fat angry lesbian can talk about how much she hates men, and claim to be a feminist, just as any son of a ***** murdering, greasy, lying, shit-faced pig **** can step into power and claim to be a communist.


I have to disagree with you. Feminism IS about empowerment, but it is about equality as well. Its about empowering women to feel that they are equal and that they deserve to be treated equal. It is very much about empowerment but its not about us women wanting to dominate the world (although there are some out there who call themselves feminists who are anti-men).

The feminist movement does things such as reclaiming words. FOr example, women are trying to reclaim the word vagina as a positive symbol. For many many years women have been ashamed of their Vaginas and have not seen it as a source of power (as men often see their penises). For anyone interested in this, read the vagina monologues.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I view feminism as a stuggle for women to have equal opporunity as men. A struggle to liberate women from stereotypes. A stuggle to free women from simply being a tool of reproduction.
Like the class struggle for equality in power among the classes, thus creating a classles society, feminism would create a 'genderless society', meaning that there would be no advantage over one gender or another. No stereotypes, no power struggle, and no male-oriented society.