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Vargha Poralli
30th December 2006, 17:11
While revleft was down i came across this article.http://www.isreview.org/issues/34/emmagoldman.shtml
which is a critic of Emma Goldman's politics. It makes very valid points and i see her politics match some of the views of anarchists/ultra leftists in RevLeft.I want a rebuttal from anarchists+ultra leftists to the points which are made by that article.

Something of my interest were

Her Early American Days

Goldman’s earliest years in the anarchist movement brought her into contact and collaboration with the leading anarchists of the post—Haymarket generation. The repression that followed the Haymarket affair drove much anarchist activity underground. The International Working Peoples’ Association, which claimed as many as 5,000 members nationwide before Haymarket, was reduced to a shadow of itself. But Haymarket had echoes that drew people such as Goldman to it. At the same time, immigrant anarchists from Europe and Russia–Italians, Spaniards, Jews, and Germans–sustained anarchist circles around different newspapers and other publications. This was the anarchist movement that Emma Goldman joined. Her first mentor was Johann Most, the co-author with Albert Parsons of the Pittsburgh Manifesto of 18838 and the leading anarchist of the day. Most promoted Goldman as a speaker. It was telling that the first speeches she gave, under Most’s influence, were "about the waste of energy and time the eight-hour struggle involved, scoffing at the stupidity of the workers who fought for such trifles."9 The fight for a shorter workday served "only to distract the masses from the real issue–the struggle against capitalism, against the wage system, for a new society."10 So early on, Goldman displayed a trademark of her politics throughout her life–a purist, ultraleft position on a number of the questions of the day.



Moreover, Goldman never turned away from the idea that heroic individuals, not masses, make history. In her 1910 essay, "Minorities Versus Majorities," she wrote: "Always, at every period, the few were the banner bearers of a great idea, of liberating effort. Not so the mass, the leaden weight of which does not let it move." The majority "cares little for ideals or integrity. What it craves is display. It matters not whether that be a dog show, a prize fight, [or a]…lynching."




Goldman’s attitude to the majority extended to the realm of working-class politics as well. Two strains of Goldman’s thought–elitism and utopianism–put her at odds with the first attempts to form the socialist party. In the last few years of the nineteenth century and first few years of the twentieth century, the American working-class movement was undergoing a regroupment of forces and a reevaluation of strategies. For the first time, leading working-class organizers–such as Eugene V. Debs–were breaking from the capitalist parties and attempting to assemble a socialist party that would reach a mass audience.

At this time, small, predominantly immigrant groups carrying out propaganda or running local election campaigns or experiments in communes and collective living arrangements represented socialism in the United States. Debs’ Social Democratic Party (SDP) hosted representatives of other left political forces in 1898 to discuss the creation of a more coherent political vehicle for working-class politics. The SDP had supported the creation of a "cooperative commonwealth," a utopian commune that would be set up in a Western state as an example for socialism. However, in the last years of the nineteenth century, Debs and other working-class activists had increasingly become convinced that this utopian scheme was impractical. They concluded that political organization among workers–the building of a socialist party–was necessary. At the 1898 convention, the utopians and the politicals clashed. Supporters of the utopian vision invited Goldman to the conference. Although she was not a member of the party, she acted as a sort of informal adviser to the utopians, who managed to win over a majority of the conference. Because of illness, Debs missed the crucial debate over the direction of the party. When he heard the results of the conference, he joined with a breakaway group led by Morris Hillquit to launch another party that would focus on political action. This led to the formation of the Socialist Party in 1901.

Having helped sink the efforts to create a serious party, Goldman had little to do with the utopian-dominated SDP after the conference. In any case, the colonization scheme collapsed–and Goldman had bigger fish to fry. Over the next two decades, she became a vocal critic of the politicals in the Socialist Party and often debated socialists on platforms.


Much of what Goldman said about the Socialist Party was true. The left of the Socialist Party–which became the base of the Communist Party after the Russian Revolution–criticized the large number of middle-class members in the party, its lack of coherence, and its character–as the revolutionary socialist James P. Cannon called it–as "a socialist variety store."18 The left also slammed the decision of the party executive in 1912 to expel anyone who advocated "direct action" to take on the bosses–a move aimed against supporters of the radical Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) in the party’s ranks. But where the left made these points to win wider layers of workers within the Socialist Party to its positions–and later to the necessity for forming an explicitly revolutionary party–Goldman used them to attack socialism in general. She argued that workers’ political action–that is, any participation in electoral activity–was a betrayal of ideals. In her attacks on socialism, she displayed the same elitist disdain for the masses she showed in other contexts:


In order to achieve these "revolutionary" measures, the elite in the Socialist ranks go down on their knees to the majority, holding out the palm leaf of compromise, catering to every superstition, every prejudice, every silly tradition. Even the Socialist politicians know that the voting majority is intellectually steeped in ignorance, that it does not know as much as the ABC of Socialism. One would therefore assume that the aim of these "scientific" Socialists would be to lift the mass up to its intellectual heights. But no such thing. That would hurt the feelings of the majority too much. Therefore the leaders must sink to the low level of their constituency, therefore they must cater to the ignorance and prejudice of the voters. And that is precisely what Socialism has been doing since it was caught in the political trap.


In Red Russia

Unlike people such as Victor Serge or Bill Shatoff, Goldman and Bergman were unwilling to compromise their autonomy by identifying too closely with the government. .......

In her autobiography and her two books on her experiences in Russia–My Disillusionment in Russia and My Further Disillusionment in Russia–Goldman narrates an accumulation of little observations that make her uneasy: party workers receiving better rations than other members of the population, model schools for the few and bad schools for the majority, anarchists being forced to meet in semi-clandestine conditions, arrests of anarchists, and so on. She writes about how many anarchists tell her that these are small matters compared to defending the revolution against counterrevolution, and working with the revolution. She is initially willing to accept these explanations, until events make her unable to defend the Bolsheviks anymore. The 1921 suppression of the Kronstadt rebellion, which Goldman and Berkman observed from close range in Petrograd, was the last straw for them. So, in her books, she adopted the essential anarchist view of the Russian Revolution–with the Russian people in the revolution, against the Bolsheviks. To her, the civil war to defend the revolution is merely the excuse the Bolsheviks use to unmask their real agenda–or as she put it in the preface to My Disillusionment, "an insignificant minority bent on creating an absolute State is necessarily driven to oppression and terrorism."

All of this may sound credible to someone picking up her books for the first time. But it ignores the most important point that anyone who wants to understand this period must know–that it takes place two years into a civil war that has devastated industrial production, and in which the workers’ government is fighting for its survival. The government desperately tried to hold out against the indigenous counterrevolutionaries and fourteen foreign armies, hoping that a revolution in Europe would come to its aid. And while there is no doubt that these conditions led to a degeneration of the revolution, committed communists felt the only possibility of reinvigorating the revolution lay in its defense against the counterrevolution. Victor Serge, an anarchist who joined the revolution, wrote to his anarchist comrades, "It is vital to respond to this necessity for revolutionary defense, as to the necessity for terror and dictatorship, on pain of death. For the grim reality of revolutions is that half-measures and half-defeats are not possible, and that victory means life, defeat means death." Serge was far from an apologist for the Bolsheviks, and certainly no Stalinist. He later became a Trotskyist, opposed to Stalin’s dictatorship. But he, like most anarchists in Russia who joined the Communist Party, recognized that only victory against the counterrevolution would create the possibility for anything the anarchists said they stood for.


Goldman wrote that the government imprisoned anarchists for their ideas........
Anarchists didn’t confine their criticism of the government to words. In fact, they engaged in terrorism against the regime and bank robberies to finance their movement. Moscow anarchists organized Black Guards, which criminal elements infiltrated, to carry out these actions. The Left SR Fanny Kaplan tried to assassinate Lenin in 1918. And in September 1919, shortly before Goldman arrived in Russia, anarchists and Left SRs actually bombed the Moscow Communist Party headquarters, killing twelve and injuring fifty-five. Even with these outrages, the repression meted out against the anarchists was far more inconsistent than Goldman made it out to be. Anarchists arrested one week were released the next. Most who promised not to take up arms against the government were released. Anarchist bookstores remained open throughout the 1920s, and in 1921 the state organized a funeral for the death of anarchist leader Peter Kropotkin at which Goldman spoke.
Krondast

Even the government suppression of the rebellion of sailors at the Kronstadt garrison in 1921–which become the central article in the anarchist case against the Russian Revolution–can be defended. If the anarchist-influenced sailors had succeeded in their uprising against the government, the counterrevolutionary Whites would have had a breach that they would have exploited to roll back the revolution. And instead of having"Soviets without Bolsheviks," as the Kronstadt anarchists demanded, they’d get the elimination of the soviets, the return of pogroms, and a right-wing dictatorship. Even the main anarchist historian of the rebellion, Paul Avrich, wrote "the historian can sympathize with the rebels and still concede that the Bolsheviks were justified in subduing them." By Goldman and Berkman’s telling, this was the last straw for their support for the Russian government. They organized a group of anarchists, including Serge, to monitor events. Goldman and Berkman offered to lead an anarchist delegation to persuade the sailors to surrender, but the government never responded. Goldman and Berkman’s proposal "may have had some effect," because the Petrograd Soviet wired the sailors with a proposal that they meet with a delegation from the Soviet, including communists and non-party comrades. The sailors rejected this, proposing no more than 15 percent Communist Party members in any such delegation. Negotiations between the sides thus ended.

When the government suppressed the uprising, Goldman and Berkman issued a protest in the name of three anarcho-syndicalist groups, a protest that Serge refused to sign. Goldman accused him of cowardice and being in bed with the Bolsheviks, but as Serge’s testimony above shows, he had principled political reasons for his stand. Even though the Bolsheviks suppressed the uprising, they realized it signified the growing opposition of the peasantry, from which most of the Kronstadt sailors were drawn, to the forced requisition of grain under the extreme measures of "war communism." The government immediately began to implement the New Economic Policy, which reintroduced market relations. This had the effect of increasing the production of food and winning back some support from the peasants, but Goldman immediately denounced it as "a reversal of communism itself.


When Goldman wrote in 1918 that "The Russian Revolution…demonstrates every day how insignificant all theories are in comparison with the actuality of the revolutionary awakening of the people," she could have been describing anarchism as one of those theories. Serge criticized the anarchists for being unable to offer anything other than criticism and opposition to the regime. He said that those who failed to "adopt a clear and distinct position…if they do not unhesitatingly and everywhere align themselves with the revolution…then they will be worthless." Noting the dwindling of their influence, Serge wrote that anarchists would find themselves either "trailing behind the more determined Communists" or "following in the footsteps of reaction." In public, Berkman denounced the government. But in private, he considered the criticisms of comrades like Serge. He wrote in his diary in December 1920,"Many vital problems find no adequate answer in our books and theories. Result–the tragedy of the Anarchists in the midst of the revolution and unable to find their place or activity?" He wrote that it wasn’t good enough just to oppose the "‘dictatorship of the proletariat.’ Have we anything to offer in its place?


Although she called herself a small-c communist, she was above all else, an individualist who believed that the enlightened few made social change. For her, the masses were an abstraction, or often, a curse. Trotsky caught this essence of Emma Goldman’s politics in his Diary in Exile in 1936, when he compared her essays to the Autobiography of Mother Jones:

Lying in the open air, I looked through a collection of articles by the anarchist Emma Goldman with a short accompanying biography, and am now reading the autobiography of "Mother Jones." They both came from the ranks of American working women. But what a difference! Goldman is an individualist, with a small "heroic" philosophy concocted from the ideas of Kropotkin, Nietzsche and Ibsen. Jones is a heroic American proletarian, without doubts or rhetoric, but also without a philosophy. Goldman sets herself revolutionary aims, but tries to achieve them by completely unrevolutionary means. Mother Jones always sets herself the most moderate aims: more pay and less hours, and tries to achieve them both by bold and revolutionary means. They both reflect America, each in her own way: Goldman by her primitive rationalism, Jones by her no less primitive empiricism. But Jones represents a splendid landmark in the history of her class, while Goldman signifies a departure from her class into individualistic nonexistence. I could not stomach the Goldman articles: lifeless moralizing which smacks of rhetoric, despite all its sincerity.

Bolds are made by me.

I see parallels between anarchists,ultra leftists of revleft and politics of Emma Goldman. Many issues still have valid today like anarchists+ultra leftists Views about both DotP and participating in elections etc.This is my question what is the alternative from anarchists+ultraleftists to both DotP and bourgeoisie democracy ?

P.S: Mods I am not sure where to post it so pls move if you think this is not the appropriate section.

chimx
30th December 2006, 18:08
But he, like most anarchists in Russia who joined the Communist Party, recognized that only victory against the counterrevolution would create the possibility for anything the anarchists said they stood for.

but it didn't.

YSR
30th December 2006, 19:27
Well, mostly, this seems to just repeat a bunch of the baseless accusations against anarchism, but a few good points are brought up by this piece which can be answered.


Originally posted by the article
Most promoted Goldman as a speaker. It was telling that the first speeches she gave, under Most’s influence, were "about the waste of energy and time the eight-hour struggle involved, scoffing at the stupidity of the workers who fought for such trifles."9 The fight for a shorter workday served "only to distract the masses from the real issue–the struggle against capitalism, against the wage system, for a new society."

Interesting. I'd like to look over Most's comments more on this. But to call her "ultra-leftist" for this is stupid. Marxists as much as anarchists call those who only push for shorter hours "reformist." Surely her stance is a revolutionary one here, and Most seems to be advocating a reformist one. (Which is odd, considering Most is the father of propaganda by the deed.)

Then that whole bit about Emma being a utopian. The article contradicts itself. First it slams Emma for opposing the "politicals" in the SP, then acknowledges that her critiques were largely correct. Bit of a waste.

Finally, there's the whole Bolshevik thing, the lies and misdirection don't need to be rebutted here again. The article somehow looks selectively at the evidence, missing out on the major points of Bolshevik repression of anarchists. The Black Guards didn't occur in a vacuum. They weren't anti-communist terrorists. Yada yada yada.

The only really interesting part of the piece is the mention of Berkman's private musing about the dictatorship of the proletariat. I can't get ahold of Alice Wexler's biography of Goldman at the moment, apparently the source for that quote, so I can't get any more context than the (extremely biased and likely selectively-quoted) ISR gives me, which is unfortunate. But I think it's worthwhile to note that Berkman lived and wrote about ninety years ago.

Anarchist theory has progressed a great deal since then. We don't buy into the DoP because time and again it hasn't worked. Morever, unlike other revolutionaries, anarchists have identified why it doesn't work and why it will never work. Are there holes in anarchist theory? Absolutely. But in terms of finding ways to run a revolutionary society, I suggest you do some research into actual anarchist theory. Berkman, for all of his wonderful writings (unlike most theory, anarchist and Marxist alike, Berkman can be understood easily by anyone who can read) he didn't have much new to say as a theorist. But plenty of other anarchists do.

coda
30th December 2006, 20:13
I think this quote from the article sums up her politics nicely, ---"In a measure we are paying for our belief that the masses as such can bring about fundamental change. There never was a more proletarian revolution than the Spanish one, but there was a terrible poverty in great minds and strength of character. That was the real tragedy of Spain."

She, like us, was impaired by the material conditions and class consciousness of her society and era. She knew well, that the masses must be ready in order for it to be a proletarian revolution and anything other than that is not a proletarian revolution. the above statement proves she did indeed believe in the collective mass struggle.

The other stuff pointed out, such as she didn't believe in woman's sufferage and she didn't believe in fighting for higher wages and against the 8 hour work day, makes sense to me in so far as anarchists don't believe in the parliamentary route to revolution, nor would contemplate capitalist aspects such as wages as significant parts of the struggle.

I think "Propaganda by deed" is an legitimate act of resistance against the state, though the article turns it's nose down on it and tries to instill individualism to it. That's is moralism for ya!

The Grey Blur
31st December 2006, 00:15
Very nice article. I always thought Goldman's critiscism's of Krondstadt were poor in a vague kind of way.


She, like us, was impaired by the material conditions and class consciousness of her society and era
But unlike us she lived in a true era of revolutionary change and instead of taking the maximum advantage from this she instead wasted her time writing useless critiscisms of genuine workers movements. It's a shame.


why it will never work
DoP will never work? :o Why?!

chimx
31st December 2006, 01:08
But unlike us she lived in a true era of revolutionary change and instead of taking the maximum advantage from this she instead wasted her time writing useless critiscisms of genuine workers movements. It's a shame.

Her criticisms were denouncing the incarceration of working class political prisoners and execution of working class peoples of Russia. It strikes me that you're the one writing useless criticisms of working class people, and instead choose to rally around bourgeois elites such as Lenin and Trotsky (and make no mistake of their bourgeois backgrounds).


Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 31, 2006 12:15 am

why it will never work
DoP will never work? :o Why?!
Because your conception of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat substitutes the Party for people. It is an inherently alienating institution, as opposed to the organic historical phenomenon posed by Marx, thus disallowing necessary shifts as labor consciousness changes. You ignore the distinction between political despotism and social despotism. Though the latter may influence the former, when it is the former that dominates revolution, it is the latter which is subjugated. It is completely contradictory to natural human struggle, as history has shown us.

The Grey Blur
31st December 2006, 02:45
It strikes me that you're the one writing useless criticisms of working class people, and instead choose to rally around bourgeois elites such as Lenin and Trotsky (and make no mistake of their bourgeois backgrounds).
So the leading Bolshevik theorists came from middle-class backgrounds...thus the Bolsheviks were tainted with beurgeois germs...thus the hundreds of thousands of Bolshevik upporting workers were...beurgeois - Chimx you're a genius!


Her criticisms were denouncing the incarceration of working class political prisoners and execution of working class peoples of Russia.
Bollox. Her critiscisms were those of an ultra-leftist and a utopian.


Because your conception of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat substitutes the Party for people. It is an inherently alienating institution, as opposed to the organic historical phenomenon posed by Marx, thus disallowing necessary shifts as labor consciousness changes. You ignore the distinction between political despotism and social despotism. Though the latter may influence the former, when it is the former that dominates revolution, it is the latter which is subjugated. It is completely contradictory to natural human struggle, as history has shown us.
:mellow:

Yes...

I just think DoP is self-explanatory...

chimx
31st December 2006, 04:33
So the leading Bolshevik theorists came from middle-class backgrounds...thus the Bolsheviks were tainted with beurgeois germs...thus the hundreds of thousands of Bolshevik upporting workers were...beurgeois - Chimx you're a genius!

I never said that, so stop trying to say that I did. I said the leaders of the Bolshevik party--those that decided upon policy, especially prior to October coup--were of primarily bourgeois origins. While they may of had the noblest of intentions--for the emancipation of working people's from capitalism--they sought to dominate the political arena and not allow for the dissent and criticism necessary of any social revolution. The tragedy of Krondstat is an example of such a stifling social environment. This manipulation of social status is what caused the undermining of the Russia Revolution. Countless people have denounced the anti-worker despotism that occurred in Russia, socialists and capitalists alike. Red Emma's critique is hardly something new, and thus hardly something that warrants placing criticism upon her.


Bollox. Her critiscisms were those of an ultra-leftist and a utopian.

I'm sure you understand the origins of the term "utopian", and how it is an inherently loaded word used to slander people. Karl Marx understood this in his denouncement of Saint-Simon. Both you and the authors decision to use it works against the validity of any point you may have, because it is pure agitprop--not a term used for scholarly debate.

Marion
31st December 2006, 09:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2006 05:11 pm


Even the main anarchist historian of the rebellion, Paul Avrich, wrote "the historian can sympathize with the rebels and still concede that the Bolsheviks were justified in subduing them."



Don't have the book where Avrich said this (Kronstadt 1921), but there's no sign in his "Russian Anarchists" that he felt this ambivalent about Kronstadt, so would be interesting to read the quote in more context. Besides, it is worth noting that Avrich was a historian of anarchism more than an anarchist historian (don't think he ever identified himself as an anarchist). Obviously though, that would make the rhetorical flourish in the first part of the quote a bit weaker...

On other Goldman - Avrich matters, does anyone else find it vaguely comic how in Avrich's "Anarchist Voices" just about every anarchist who ever met Goldman makes a point of saying that they never really liked her at all? It's like a recurring in-joke throughout the entire book.

Morpheus
31st December 2006, 21:58
That article is full of distortions and half-truths. See the refutation of it at http://www.anarchism.ws/writers/anarcho/reviews/goldman.html

Severian
1st January 2007, 00:03
Originally posted by Young Stupid [email protected] 30, 2006 01:27 pm
Marxists as much as anarchists call those who only push for shorter hours "reformist."
No, armchair revolutionaries say that.

It's kinda unfair to Goldman to highlight this bit of youthful inexperienced foolishness as if it was her viewpoint throughout her life. At times she certainly was a participant in the real class struggle, and made a useful contribution to it.

Some of the other points are probably more valid, particularly if the quotes about the ignorant majority are accurate. Ultralefts often do have a great contempt for most people.

Vargha Poralli
1st January 2007, 13:37
Marion,Young Stupid Radical,chimx,Morpheus and Indigo,

You have cleared about your stance on DotP.What is your stance on voting in elections ?

Also what is the alternative if you also don't believe in building a party and participating in Elections ?


Besides, it is worth noting that Avrich was a historian of anarchism more than an anarchist historian (don't think he ever identified himself as an anarchist)

That does not matter but his statement matters if you had truly understood the conditions of Russia at that time and vaugeness of Anarchist + Ultraleftist criticism of Lenin and Trotsky.

YSR
1st January 2007, 19:29
Originally posted by Severian+December 31, 2006 06:03 pm--> (Severian @ December 31, 2006 06:03 pm)
Young Stupid [email protected] 30, 2006 01:27 pm
Marxists as much as anarchists call those who only push for shorter hours "reformist."
No, armchair revolutionaries say that. [/b]
Bullshit. Notice my word "only". People who push only for shorter hours are reformists. I point to the AFL-CIO in the U.S. People who push for shorter hours as well as class consciousness and a struggle against wage slavery are revolutionaries.


Ultralefts often do have a great contempt for most people.

Not surprisingly, my experience has been just the opposite. The so-called "ultralefts" who I've worked with have pushed for far more inclusivity in projects than the local Trots, who seem content to take over broad-based organizations' leadership and present that as a shining example of their inclusiveness.

Just goes to show, you can't take broad unqualified sectarian pronouncements as truth. :rolleyes:

Morpheus
1st January 2007, 21:28
Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 01:37 pm
Marion,Young Stupid Radical,chimx,Morpheus and Indigo,

You have cleared about your stance on DotP.What is your stance on voting in elections ?

Also what is the alternative if you also don't believe in building a party and participating in Elections ?
I'm against participation in elections because it's counter-productive. My alternative is direct action & revolution. I've written several articles about this:

Elections are a Scam (http://question-everything.mahost.org/Socio-Politics/voting.html)
The Dead End of Electoralism (http://question-everything.mahost.org/Socio-Politics/Electoralism.html)
On the State (http://question-everything.mahost.org/Socio-Politics/State.html)

Severian
2nd January 2007, 04:55
Originally posted by Young Stupid Radical+January 01, 2007 01:29 pm--> (Young Stupid Radical @ January 01, 2007 01:29 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 31, 2006 06:03 pm

Young Stupid [email protected] 30, 2006 01:27 pm
Marxists as much as anarchists call those who only push for shorter hours "reformist."
No, armchair revolutionaries say that.
Bullshit. Notice my word "only". [/b]
Sorry, I missed that. But then your statement just makes no sense in the context of the young Goldman's rejection of the fight for the 8-hour day.

To defend that, you have to say that anyone who fights for shorter hours is a reformist.

Hit The North
2nd January 2007, 17:03
Chimx:


I never said that, so stop trying to say that I did. I said the leaders of the Bolshevik party--those that decided upon policy, especially prior to October coup--were of primarily bourgeois origins.

What are you talking about?

Lenin's dad was a school official (a bureaucrat)
Trotsky's dad was a farmer
Stalin's dad was a cobbler
Zinoviev's father was a struggling dairy farmer
Kamenev's old man was a railway worker
and Bukharin's dad was a primary school teacher

With the dubious or debatable exception of Trotsky's family which were relatively prosperous, I don't detect much of a bourgeois pedigree.

You do understand what we mean by the term 'bourgeois', don't you?

chimx
2nd January 2007, 18:26
Lenin's father was more than a simple school official. He was the director of public education for their province. They lived in a nice home and were highly educated.

Trotsky's farther was not a simple farmer. He was an extremely wealthy farmer. He owned three thousand acres of farm land, owned the local mill, and hired other peasants to work his land for him. According to Max Eastman's book on Trotsky's youth, Trotsky's father "was altogether the important man of the place."

Stalin was pretty poor. His father tried his hand as an artisan, but failed. He eventually abandoned his family and Stalin's family eventually was supported by some other guy who I forget.

Granted, I may have been somewhat overzealous when I said "primarily" of bourgeois origins. I was mainly speaking of the theoretical heads, specifically Lenin and Trotsky.

stevec
2nd January 2007, 18:56
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2006 05:11 pm


Moreover, Goldman never turned away from the idea that heroic individuals, not masses, make history. In her 1910 essay, "Minorities Versus Majorities," she wrote: "Always, at every period, the few were the banner bearers of a great idea, of liberating effort. Not so the mass, the leaden weight of which does not let it move." The majority "cares little for ideals or integrity. What it craves is display. It matters not whether that be a dog show, a prize fight, [or a]…lynching."
It would appear that individuals crave the display as well. Although Lenin did not insert himself in there.

Take Washington, for another example. He created a city, named it after himself, and gave out medals with his image on it.

Both men overthrew their monarch. But put themselves in the place of the new monarch. Yes, they were the individual that made changes, but they didn't change anything, except places with the person they overthrew.

Hypocrisy has a thousand faces.

http://www.engr.uiuc.edu/international-StudentExperience/RussiaExperience/Alexander_Russia_SU02/Russia/Pictures/lenin.jpg

Hit The North
2nd January 2007, 19:10
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 07:26 pm
Lenin's father was more than a simple school official. He was the director of public education for their province. They lived in a nice home and were highly educated.

Trotsky's farther was not a simple farmer. He was an extremely wealthy farmer. He owned three thousand acres of farm land, owned the local mill, and hired other peasants to work his land for him. According to Max Eastman's book on Trotsky's youth, Trotsky's father "was altogether the important man of the place."

Stalin was pretty poor. His father tried his hand as an artisan, but failed. He eventually abandoned his family and Stalin's family eventually was supported by some other guy who I forget.

Granted, I may have been somewhat overzealous when I said "primarily" of bourgeois origins. I was mainly speaking of the theoretical heads, specifically Lenin and Trotsky.
But once again, having no personal ownership of means of production, neither Lenin nor Trotsky qualify as bourgeois in any meaningful material sense. In terms of their ideological and political opinion (i.e., marxist) they did not have a bourgeois turn of mind. Calling them so, is as useful as me characterizing Emma Goldman's political views as being the result of the fact that her father was a publican.

Now, whether one is Marxist or Anarchist, if we disqualify theoreticians on the basis of their family of origin (that they are not suitably proletarian), both our traditions would be pretty threadbare. That's one of the consequences of living in a class society.

chimx
2nd January 2007, 20:35
Trotsky's family most certainly owned means of production, and there isn't any real debate about that. Lenin's family, while bureaucrats, culturally identified themselves with the bourgeoisie. Both his parents were advocates of political liberalization of the Czarist regime and the introduction of democracy. Personally I mildly disagree with the notion that one has to own the means of production to be thrown into the bourgeois camp. The priests that took the Tennis Court Oath in France owned no property, but they were some of the most vehement advocates of democracy and capitalism. Are they too not bourgeois?


Now, whether one is Marxist or Anarchist, if we disqualify theoreticians on the basis of their family of origin (that they are not suitably proletarian), both our traditions would be pretty threadbare. That's one of the consequences of living in a class society.

I agree. Whether or not Lenin and Trotsky's bourgeois origins influenced their political lives is certainly debatable. However, the difference is that anarchists rarely align themselves directly with any individual theoretician (except for perhaps a handful of "Bakuninists" 100 years ago), whereas those that follow the path of Marxism-Leninism tote along their ideological heads with impunity.

Raising up the books of dead guys just doesn't strike me as productive more often than not.

Hit The North
2nd January 2007, 21:24
Chimx


The priests that took the Tennis Court Oath in France owned no property, but they were some of the most vehement advocates of democracy and capitalism. Are they too not bourgeois?

Not necessarily.

As far as I recollect, the Tennis Court Oath was a political declaration of belief in the sovereignty of the people, an act of defiance against Royal authority and not an openly 'capitalist' appeal. Anyone who opposed the King could have agreed with it.



Personally I mildly disagree with the notion that one has to own the means of production to be thrown into the bourgeois camp.

I agree with your disagreement. The bourgeoisie depend on armies of functionaries, administrators, ideologues and demagogues, many of whom share a material interest with their masters. However, to be bourgeois necessitates a certain relationship to means of production.

Further, there's a big difference between those siding with a revolutionary bourgeosie struggling to free itself against feudalism and those who side with an established ruling capitalist class.

But this is a diversion from the actual argument of the thread so I'll end with an apology.

Vargha Poralli
3rd January 2007, 16:25
chimx

1) Are you really an Anarchist or a Monarchist ?

2) The October Revolution is not a coup as it is not carried out by a military elite with monopoly of arms. Its an insurrection of Workers,Soldiers and peasants against the illegal and fraudulent provincial government.

3)Quoting Myself:

You have cleared about your stance on DotP.What is your stance on voting in elections ?

Also what is the alternative if you also don't believe in building a party and participating in Elections ?

Morpheus

I'm against participation in elections because it's counter-productive. My alternative is direct action & revolution. I've written several articles about this:

Elections are a Scam
The Dead End of Electoralism
On the State

I have not read fully all of your articles but how exactly would you carry out your alternative that is direct action and revolution. If you are against vanguard and normal electoral politics ?

and to all other anarchists who have replied you all have dodged many points and i would like somebody to refutate them validly.

chimx
4th January 2007, 02:22
1) Are you really an Anarchist or a Monarchist ?

2) The October Revolution is not a coup as it is not carried out by a military elite with monopoly of arms. Its an insurrection of Workers,Soldiers and peasants against the illegal and fraudulent provincial government.

3)Quoting Myself:

1) hah. you caught me. i'm secretly a monarchist. Bring back the Bourbons!. But seriously, i have no idea where you are getting this from.

2) it was a revolution carried out by a political minority which in turn placed itself in power, as a minority group. granted that there were social revolutions occurring simultaneously, but that isn't what we are talking about though, is it?

3) I don't vote. Marx suggested democracy as a means for peaceful transition, but I think history has shown that to be a failed praxis. I'll let you try to figure out the alternative, as it is fairly obvious. (hint: it is part of the name of this website)

Vargha Poralli
4th January 2007, 06:35
But seriously, i have no idea where you are getting this from.

Thats just because i wanted to mock you for emphasising Lenin's and Trotsky's birth in to their repective classes. It is usually monarchists who emphasise a person's birth lineage(Purity of Royal Blood :lol: ) and you do the same but in reverse(purity of labour blood :P )


it was a revolution carried out by a political minority which in turn placed itself in power, as a minority group. granted that there were social revolutions occurring simultaneously, but that isn't what we are talking about though, is it?

You have got to refute Serge's comment regarding this.


I don't vote. Marx suggested democracy as a means for peaceful transition, but I think history has shown that to be a failed praxis. I'll let you try to figure out the alternative, as it is fairly obvious. (hint: it is part of the name of this website)

How do you suggest to do it exactly ?