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View Full Version : Reform or Revolution - excerpt from Dannial De-Leon's speach



RedCeltic
23rd August 2001, 17:38
This is a short clip from Daniel De Leon's "Reform or Revolution" speach given in Boston Mass. in 1896. It pritty well sums up me belief that while any social reform is a step in the right direction, it is the system that is rotten to the core, and needs total change (revolution)


REFORM
Take, for instance, a poodle. You can reform him in a lot of ways. You can shave his whole body and leave a tassel at the tip of his tail; you may bore a hole through each ear, and tie a blue bow on one and a red bow on the other; you may put a brass collar around his neck with your initials on, and a trim little blanket on his back; yet, throughout, a poodle he was and a poodle he remains. Each of these changes probably wrought a corresponding change in the poodle's life. When shorn of all his hair except a tassel at the tail's tip he was owned by a wag who probably cared only for the fun he could get out of his pet; when he appears gaily decked in bows, probably his young mistress' attachment is of tenderer sort; when later we see him in the fancier's outfit, the treatment he receives and the uses he is put to may be yet again and probably are, different. Each of these transformations or stages may mark a veritable epoch in the poodle's existence. And yet, essentially, a poodle he was, a poodle he is and a poodle he will remain.
That is reform.


REVOLUTION
But when we look back myriads of years, or project ourselves into far -- future physical cataclysms, and trace the development of animal life from the invertebrate to the vertebrate, from the lizard to the bird, from the quadruped and mammal till we come to the prototype of the poodle, and finally reach the poodle himself, and so forward -- then do we find radical changes at each step, changes from within that alter the very essence of his being, and that put, or will put, upon him each time a stamp that alters the very system of his existence.
That is revolution.

So with society. Whenever a change leaves the internal mechanism untouched, we have reform; whenever the internal mechanism is changed, we have revolution.

Of course, no internal change is possible without external manifestations. The internal changes denoted by the revolution or evolution of the lizard into the eagle go accompanied with external marks. So with society. And therein lies one of the pitfalls into which dilettantism or "reforms" invariably tumble. They have noticed that externals change with internals; and they rest satisfied with mere external changes, without looking behind the curtain. But of this more presently.

We Socialists are not reformers; we are revolutionists. We Socialists do not propose to change forms. We care nothing for forms. We want a change of the inside of the mechanism of society, let the form take care of itself. We see in England a crowned monarch; we see in Germany a sceptered emperor; we see in this country an uncrowned president, and we fail to see the essential difference between Germany, England or America. That being the case, we are skeptics as to forms. We are like grown children, in the sense that we like to look at the inside of things and find out what is there.

One more preliminary explanation. Socialism is lauded by some as an angelic movement, by others it is decried as a devilish scheme. Hence you find the Gomperses blowing hot and cold on the subject; and Harry Lloyd, with whose capers, to your sorrow, you are more familiar than I, pronouncing himself a Socialist in one place, and in another running Socialism down. Socialism is neither an aspiration of angels nor a plot of devils. Socialism moves with its feet firmly planted in the ground and its head not lost in the clouds; it takes science by the hand, asks her to lead and goes whithersoever she points. It does not take science by the hand, saying: "I shall follow you to the end of the road if it please me." No! It takes her by the hand and says: "Whithersoever thou leadest, thither am I bound to go." The Socialists, consequently, move as intelligent men; we do not mutiny because, instead of having wings, we have arms, and cannot fly as we would wish.

DarkBrown
1st September 2001, 13:11
If you are referring to the United States, then I hope your socialism never materializes here. Why? Because once you get a socialist president in office, all the people with money that own companies that create business and jobs, professions will leave to another country that is more friendly to their needs. I get taxed enough, and yet I do not complain. But with a socialist country, there goes my money I was planning to use for a vacation with my wife and kids. I like money, I like buying new things. Sure, I like also to give to charity and help others, which I do, but I still like my money. I say stick to the reform and move away from this socialist revolution talk. Capitalism works, it just has an ugly face. But there exists plastic surgery to fix that face, which I would like to call myself. Fix the face to make it prettier for all countries to follow, while not resorting to cutting off the head like you propose. I have said my piece. And sure, the United States will always be one of the most powerful countries, such as other countries that have a strong history in capitalism and the resources to strive ahead, but regardless there still is an inherent good in capitalism. Freedom. I am not saying all is great and well in the world, but blame corruption and lack of knowledge, not the system of ownership and economy.

pce
2nd September 2001, 04:10
the freedom you speak of only belongs to the rich. unless capitalism is done away with or severly changed, that freedom will never spread to everyone. let me show you. what if everyone in the u.s. wanted to start a business so they can have money to have vacations and not worry about financial problems, after all they are free to do so right? so everyone starts either a business....or comes up with a new product....or....whatever. but who will they have to work for there business or produce their product? capitalism insures that there is always a group of lower class citizens who have to bend to every rule and change brought about by the rich upper class. what if someone surviving on $10,000 a year wants to take the same vacation as his boss who makes $100,000? that's his freedom right? he works just as hard as his boss, if not harder. but is he free to take a vacation? no. capitalism works for the rich and it has an amazingly ugly face. now, i'm not for a sudden change over night, but i think the system has to slowly change towards socialism.

pce
3rd September 2001, 02:44
also, you talk as if socialism is about everyone being poor. it's not (at least i don't think it should be) it is about everyone being rich

CheGuevara
3rd September 2001, 03:22
So DarkBrown, is there any idea of Che's that you agree with? I'm not quite sure what you're doing here. Foolish me, I thought Drunktank was bad....

DarkBrown
3rd September 2001, 11:18
You cannot understand your own views until you consider your oppositions. I do not view Che Guevara as a communist, I view him as a leader. Why? Because somebody had to stand up to an oppresive system. Che is the embodiment of the Latin American struggle during the Cold War, fighting governments that put foreign interests over their own citizens. One cannot study Che and people like him and not feel a tinge of conscience. I am for the working class, not for communism. I think realistically. As long as people desire nice things in life such as the right to choose what career they want, to choose their leaders, to be heard, to participate, to think and read what they want, to buy nice, new things, as long as people like these concepts, communism will forever be dead or a bad choice.

pce
3rd September 2001, 20:21
MAN...i don't know what you're talking about, but it sure as hell doesn't sound like communism. communism is about all those things you listed. the corruptness of past "communist" countries and capitalist propaganda has tainted your understanding of real communism.

as long as there is a "working CLASS" and a "middle CLASS" and a "high CLASS" there will never be equality and fairness. you have to do away with the classes, or the effect of the classes. whether you want to call that communism or whatever else, it doesn't matter.

MattTheCat
5th September 2001, 00:47
You guys seem to be confused about the difference between socialism and communism. In a socialist society there is still the possibility of a person making 10,000 dollars as compared to 100,000 dollars that his boss makes. You are still rewarded based on deed. Communism is what rewards based on need. It would seem to me that socialism is supposed to be a system that provides all the tools to make just as much as another while communism says you make just as much as another no matter your station. Correct me if I'm missing out here.

paris.
5th September 2001, 18:07
The confusion poses a small problem, most likely because reading Marx he referred to socialism and communism interchangebly i.e. a socialized economic theory (production of needs instead of markets) of a communist system (collective) - Che also used the terms interchangebly, I tend to also and a lot of purests do too.

the theories since have departed and lines have been drawn to make the distinction from authoritive collectives (Stalinism) and neo-socialisms (Keynesian liberalism, really.) Socialism has moved toward a tolerance of free markets along with having socialized programs. Communism or what's so far been attempted has somewhat kept the vestiges of Classic Marxism as far as production of needs, but geared around the state-market.
Anyway, economics - way too dry and technical.





(Edited by Valkyrie at 11:55 am on Sep. 6, 2001)

pce
5th September 2001, 18:42
you're right, i always blur the line between socialism and communism. actually i'm not exactly sure what the difference is for certain. thanks for your explanations.

however my point still stands- just feel free to switch communism to socialism and socialism to communism where you see fit :biggrin: (i think based on your explanations, both apply to my arguement to different degrees- communism more so i think...)

paris.
5th September 2001, 20:51
further complicating the definition of socialism - in the Manifesto of the Communist Party Marx states 5 types of socialist propaganda and theories: three reactionist types; Feudal,
Petty-Bourgeois & German; Conservative/Bourgeois and the Utopian-Communism of his & Engels.





(Edited by Valkyrie at 12:04 pm on Sep. 6, 2001)

RedCeltic
7th September 2001, 16:55
I'm in the college library right now killing time as I'm off work today and waiting for someone to work on a term paper with... I looked up Socialism and Communism in several dictionaries... but they are all full of anti socialist and communist wording so I can't use them to back up my thoughts...

Ony part of one said something I agree with under socialism, " 3. (in marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in transition of society to communism... " This I agree with...

I may be wrong... but In my belief Communism is a socialist theory because being socialist is to be of the mindset that you believe in equality of the masses, and believe in a system that ensures everyone can live confortably.

I've been doing alot of thinking lately and I think my views go more in line with those of the World Socialist Party than with the party I curently belong. When I speak of revolution I do not mean war, and I don't mean on one nation but the world... Anyway I only know about them from looking at their web site... and the web sites of some of the constituant parties... USA, Canada, UK, etc... Seems to be closely resemble what I believe in... expecally being a party with constituants all over the world.

pce
7th September 2001, 23:38
here's another thing i don't get...communism follows socialism, right? and under socialism there is an all-powerful government that insures everything is even (like extremely left democrats). and communism is when there is no government and people rule themselves (there would be temporary leaders in certain areas to bring attention to certain things, as someone explained before) then how does the change from socialism to communism come about? isn't that a big and difficult transition- from such a powerful government, to none at all?

Rosa
16th February 2002, 01:43
Hey DarkBrown, you forgot to say that your money allows you to turn yourself to be blond,thanks to your money, but your cildren would be born darkhaired,and they would probably want to become blondes too, and the industry of hair colors would blossom, and maybe even give a job to jour children so that they could buy haircolor. And the whole family will rest hapilly ever after 21 days in the year on some Caribian beach (with regenerator - cca2 $, on their hair)Cccc... I don't want to spend my life on that kind of rubbish.
And the plastic bottle of regenerator would probably kill some fish if it opens the mouth on the wrong place and in the wrong time. But you probably don't consider the fishes life worthy of your thoughts, when you have so many problems in your life: "what kind of haircolor is trendy? Should I find the answer in Cosmo, or Should I watch Oprah? My head hurts of all that thinking, should I take the Aspirin or Prozac? Wich doctor should I choose to give me the recipe?"...bla bla.
Admire Che as a ledaer? Only dog needs a leader.

TheDerminator
23rd February 2002, 11:08
Rosa Luxemburg was a socialist leader and our Rosa is leading us all the time with her own opinions.

Thankyou for showing us the error of our ways!

You are the teacher and we are the pupils!

Lead us away from the error of our own opinions.

Woof! Woof!

A few things; a world organisation is the cart before the horse. Che got it right you have to fight for the self-determination of your own people before the world has its own self-determination. You see, self-determination is not nationalism, and that is a bit of an error in past socialist theory, self-determination within a nationality is the democratic socialist control of that nationality, otherwise the "self-determination" is a primitive conception of self-determination, it is not the people who are doing the determining.

There can only be one definition of socialism and that is an advanced organised society without the need for capital for the people of that society. It is the existence of capital that is the economic difference between socialism and capitalism, socialism is the social organisation of society without capital, capitalist economy speaks for itself; organisation around capital.
It is socialist ethos possessed by the majority, which bonds socialist organisation of the society together, we do not require capital to organise humanity, and it easy to control abuses in the stage between socialism in the first country which becomes an advanced socialist country and the transition to world socialism, the latter is only a technical question, and computer technology overcomes the technicality extremely easily.
As for Communism, is there such a thing as absolute freedom?
It is an open question, but you might believe that as long as technology has the capacity to develop, the freedoms we possess can never be absolute, because that is in aspect of technology, it can give a freedom never possessed before, and if Communism is not meant to be absolute Freedom then why believe in it?

derminated.