Tony Cliff

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

For anyone interested, here is a recording of Cliff explaining, a few years before he died, in a populist form, why he developed the theory of State Capitalism,

http://www.linksruck.de/ueberuns/artikel/T...alism-Part1.mp3 (http://www.linksruck.de/ueberuns/artikel/TonyCliff-StateCapitalism-Part1.mp3)

[Pawn Power]

"Without Lenin and Trotsky there wouldn't have been the Russian Revolution."

Do you really believe that? Does Tony Cliff really believe that?

[Lamanov]

As far as the crew gathered arround the New International magazine is considered, probably the best development of state-capitalist theory comes not from Cliff, whose theory is full of holes, but from Raya Dunayevskaya.

Did you read any of her texts?

[combat]

Originally posted by Pawn [email protected] 20, 2006 04:35 pm
"Without Lenin and Trotsky there wouldn't have been the Russian Revolution."

Do you really believe that? Does Tony Cliff really believe that?
There is no doubt about it. The bolchevik party was very hesitant in its approach to the bourgeois government. Only Lenin and Trotsky took the right decision to fight the latter.

[Leo]

One of my comrades apparently met Tony Cliff once, he was telling a joke about the Stalinist USSR in a pub. Anyway, he sounds even funnier than I expected :lol:

Dunayevskaya is alright in my opinion, but left communists were talking about the emergence of state capitalism since 1918.

ICC has a pretty good article on Tony Cliff, if anyone is interested:

http://en.internationalism.org/wr/235_tcliff.htm

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

DJ-TC, I cannot fully disagree, except her analysis is rather abstract, and ruined by her fondness for dialectical mysticism.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Pawn Power:


Does Tony Cliff really believe that?

Remember, this was a popular talk; elsewhere he argues a much more nuanced approach.

And, recall, the SWP does not believe everything Cliff tells them.

Which is what one of the sub-texts that this talk tried to put over.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Leo, Cliff was a charismatic speaker, and full of life, whit and humour.

The article you linked to is, however, the exact opposite, and laughably weak into the bargain.

Sorry to have to say....

[Djehuti]

Aufheben have a series of articles under the name "what was the USSR". In the first part they criticise Cliff's theory of state capitalism.
http://www.geocities.com/aufheben2/auf_6_ussr1.html

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

I am listening to the mp3 now.

But, didn't trotsky and lenin advcate "one man management"?

So if lenin didnt die when he did, wouldnt the Soviets have been soviets be removed from power anyway?

[Leo]

Leo, Cliff was a charismatic speaker, and full of life, whit and humour.

The article you linked to is, however, the exact opposite, and laughably weak into the bargain.

Well, truth hurts apparently... To be honest, Cliff seems to be interesting enough to chat with once, pity I will never get the chance, but this doesn't change the nature of his politics.

[gilhyle]

Is anyone saying anything here.....he could tell a joke, he was good for a chat ? Is that it ?

[Leo]

I also said that his politics were shit and sent a link to an article about him. Of course the answer I got was that he was full of life, whit and humour.

[Intelligitimate]

Fuck that Trot. Like the disgusting Shachtmanites in America who sided with US imperialism against Vietnam, the Cliffites 'refused' to take a side against US imperialism in Korea. Trotskyism is anti-communism, and Shachtman and Cliff are the embodiments of this.

Fuck Cliff and all pseudo-Marxists who don't oppose US imperialism.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Did you listen to the MP3 intelligitimate?

What do you think about the observations he makes?

I think that they're well thought through and seem consistant.

It is a factual disagrement, or is it an ideological one?

Because this thread is for non-sectarians...

[combat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2006 08:13 pm
Fuck that Trot. Like the disgusting Shachtmanites in America who sided with US imperialism against Vietnam, the Cliffites 'refused' to take a side against US imperialism in Korea. Trotskyism is anti-communism, and Shachtman and Cliff are the embodiments of this.

Fuck Cliff and all pseudo-Marxists who don't oppose US imperialism.
Absurd since both of them were not claiming to be Trotskysts when they sided with the US. However real bolchevik-leninists sided with the Korean and Vietnamese peoples(not their stalino-bureaucratic leaderships).
Remember the ICL slogan in the 60s and 70s "Indochina must become Communist".

[bombeverything]

Originally posted by combat+December 20, 2006 04:44 pm--> (combat @ December 20, 2006 04:44 pm)
Pawn [email protected] 20, 2006 04:35 pm
"Without Lenin and Trotsky there wouldn't have been the Russian Revolution."

Do you really believe that? Does Tony Cliff really believe that?
There is no doubt about it. The bolchevik party was very hesitant in its approach to the bourgeois government. Only Lenin and Trotsky took the right decision to fight the latter.[/b]

Yes there is. Lenin was interested only attempting to keep the party leadership in line with the masses. This is hardly 'leading' a revolution. Both Lenin and Trotsky (after 1905) were opposed to the soviets. And yes, trotsky was responsible for one man management, the regimentation of labour and the shooting of the kronstdadt rebels.

[gilhyle]

As to Cliff's ideas being well thought out .....I never thought so. Among myrid of errors he confuses government and state, substitutes relations of production for forces of production (a position subsequently articulated explicitly by Callinicos) and engages in absurd glorification of the Paris Commune (bless their memory and all that).

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

As usual, Gil, you allege much, but prove zero.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Intelligitimate: good use of swear words -- poor use of brain.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Leo:


Well, truth hurts apparently

Too bad you are a stranger to it, then. :)

[boxinghefner]

I thought of Tony today and wondered what he'd think about his socialists involved in the moralistic condemnation of sex workers, the popular frontist approach of RESPECT, the uncritical approach to religious obscurantism (both on and beyond the topic of gay adoption - most recently).

I do like the joke about Stalin being the only one to vote for.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Anyone who wants to hear more Cliff, can go here:

http://mp3.lpi.org.uk/


I thought of Tony today and wondered what he'd think about his socialists involved in the moralistic condemnation of sex workers, the popular frontist approach of RESPECT, the uncritical approach to religious obscurantism (both on and beyond the topic of gay adoption - most recently).

You will need to be more specific about the first item, if I am to reply.

As to the third, it is never uncritical, just not in yer face, to split the united front.

The second, I do not recognise; where have we linked with/subordinated ourselves to elements of the ruling-class?

[Leo]

Too bad you are a stranger to it, then.

Oh dear, and you are really into this cult-of-personality thing about Cliff aren't you?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Leo:


Oh dear, and you are really into this cult-of-personality thing about Cliff aren't you?

About as much as you are into modern logic....