Log in

View Full Version : RAF what kind of Leftist are they?



Knight of Cydonia
19th December 2006, 05:36
i assume that you all ever heard about RAF (Red Army Faction) or commonly known as Baader-Meinhof Group ,was formerly operated in West Germany between the year 1970 - 1998. And this kind of group has done many various terrorism action during that year.

now what i want to ask is what kind of leftist are they? are they just another common terrorist? and did they have a connection to Russian Communist?

cumbia
19th December 2006, 08:03
Urban Intellectuals looking for a thrill. Also, theres this book by bommi baumann "how it all began" the personal account of a west german urban guerrilla who makes clear the so called revolution and what happened to it at the time. The RAF were "marxist-leninist" to answer your question though.

Knight of Cydonia
19th December 2006, 09:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2006 03:03 pm
Urban Intellectuals looking for a thrill. Also, theres this book by bommi baumann "how it all began" the personal account of a west german urban guerrilla who makes clear the so called revolution and what happened to it at the time. The RAF were "marxist-leninist" to answer your question though.
could you gave me a link or something that proof the RAF were marxist-leninist (even though they was from German)?

EDIT: nevermind, i've just figured out why, and just figured out that they have linked to the PFLP ( Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine) in the German Autumn

Dimentio
19th December 2006, 10:41
They were a joke.

Knight of Cydonia
19th December 2006, 11:10
Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2006 05:41 pm
They were a joke.
indeed :lol: but i think they were quit fine leftist coz they've done some various action including Luftansha hijacking.

Guevarist
19th December 2006, 19:24
They didn't really fit in any leftist group. They were kind of anarchists but didn't call themselves anarchists. They resembled (if thats the good word, im not english) with maoists a lot though. They didn't really wanted to start a revolution directly with their bombing, but with their violence they wanted to awake people (and then people would make a revolution)
This is what i've read somewhere but i dont remember the writer of the book.

Fawkes
2nd January 2007, 00:41
It's the right word if you get rid of the with afterwords.

Didn't the RAF, PFLP, and JRA (Japanese Red Army) all have really close ties with each other?

Ander
2nd January 2007, 03:28
All I know was that they were connected to the Stasi of East Germany. I'm not sure to what length their support went, but I believe they armed and funded them.

Janus
2nd January 2007, 03:32
Didn't the RAF, PFLP, and JRA (Japanese Red Army) all have really close ties with each other?
Not sure about RAF, but the JRA and the PFLP were definitely very close with each other and even participated in operations together.

bcbm
3rd January 2007, 10:10
Originally posted by Freedom for [email protected] 01, 2007 06:41 pm
It's the right word if you get rid of the with afterwords.

Didn't the RAF, PFLP, and JRA (Japanese Red Army) all have really close ties with each other?
Yes, and they were also tied in with AD and CCC, among others.

Leo
3rd January 2007, 11:40
I think RAF also had really good relationships with Stasi.

Amusing Scrotum
3rd January 2007, 11:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2006 07:24 pm
They were kind of anarchists but didn't call themselves anarchists.

You could, I suppose, draw a parallel or two between the RAF and a certain group of anarchists who operated in France at the turn of the 20th century. (?) Both groups criminal activities seem to have attracted the same type of notoriety, for instance; but, that particular question seems a somewhat superficial one to me.

[The French group, by the way, were individualist anarchists. But, for the life of me, I really can't remember their name. Anyone got any ideas?]

The more important question regarding the RAF, in my opinion, is the question of whether the RAF could be considered an authentic expression of working class struggle.

That's certainly a complex question ... and one I don't even pretend to have an answer too. However, I would say that there are a few important things to note when trying to answer that question; things which people probably tend to overlook.

The first of which, concerns their success ... or lack there of. If the RAF are transformed into some kind of political vanguard whose aim was "to awake people [to] make a revolution"; then they failed miserably.

But, and this for me is the important part, does their failure to do this necessarily mean that they didn't represent an authentic strand of working class politics?

Personally, I don't think the RAF, at least the early RAF, can even be judged in this light. I really doubt, originally, Baader & co. had any ideas about being a vanguard which would awaken people.

Personally, I think that early on they can be seen as the political lefts unofficial repressive apparatus. That is, as a group which hoped to counter the German States brutality with their own.

However, did they go beyond that particular horizon? And, if they did, then how does that impact our evaluation of them?

Certainly, the influence of the Stasi is not something one should overlook. But, at what point did they start influencing the RAF? And what kind of influence did they have?

I don't know the answers to the above questions ... and the historical record is probably quite fuzzy on this one. But, I'd speculate that we could make a distinction between the first generation of the RAF -- and possibly the early second generation -- and the later RAF.

A distinction that revolves around the Stasi's influence and the role that played in transforming the class character of the group. (Well, it's groups if we make the distinction.)

Additionally, their links with other groups, such as the PFLP, needs to factor into our thinking. After all, there's a lot to be learned from the friends people choose.

And, relating to that, we have the Movement 2 June -- who, I suppose, you could call the anarchist RAF.

They are less illustrious than the RAF; but, at the same time, some of the more questionable things relating to the RAF are not found within the Movement 2 June. Which, of course, makes them far easier to support.

However, been as the groups, political philosophy aside, acted in ways which were fundamentally identical; would it be possible to support one and not tother? And on what grounds?

That is, could someone make the case that one current was an expression of working class struggle, whilst the other wasn't?

Personally, I think the answers to these questions could probably be found in the publications of revolutionary groups in Germany from that era. How rank and file militants viewed these two groups, would help indicate, in my opinion, the class characteristics of these groups.

I've not seen any publications myself, but if someone knew of something from back then, then that could be very informative.

It would certainly be more informative than most stuff written now. In an era where the left seems to have posthumously transformed the RAF into an icon. Europe's "Che". Basically, revolutionary chic.

And I think looking past the RAF that is a trendy icon of leftism, and analysing their class character instead, is really what needs to be done. But it's something that doesn't really seem to have been done -- judging by how hard it is to find a decent revolutionary analysis of them on the internet.
_ _ _ _ _

Sorry, that turned out to be much longer than I intended.

bcbm
3rd January 2007, 18:33
You could, I suppose, draw a parallel or two between the RAF and a certain group of anarchists who operated in France at the turn of the 20th century. (?) Both groups criminal activities seem to have attracted the same type of notoriety, for instance; but, that particular question seems a somewhat superficial one to me.

Eh... only in that regard. In terms of motivation, actions and make-up, they were nothing alike.


The French group, by the way, were individualist anarchists. But, for the life of me, I really can't remember their name. Anyone got any ideas?

They're referred to as the Bonnot Gang, but that title is much like "Baader-Meinhof Gang" in that the group probably didn't refer to itself as such. I doubt they even had an official "name," as they were not that kind of group.



Personally, I don't think the RAF, at least the early RAF, can even be judged in this light. I really doubt, originally, Baader & co. had any ideas about being a vanguard which would awaken people.

Personally, I think that early on they can be seen as the political lefts unofficial repressive apparatus. That is, as a group which hoped to counter the German States brutality with their own.

That's pretty much it, actually. Ensslin pushed the need to take up arms in response to the West German police killing a demonstrator during a particularly violent anti-Shah demo and Baader came on board more out of boredom and the sex appeal of terrorism than anything. As time wore on they pushed the idea of "building the Red Army" which was basically about more cells of the RAF forming spontaneously, as I understand it, but they became more engrossed in more international issues like Palestine and US imperialism than dealing with any class issues in Germany.


Certainly, the influence of the Stasi is not something one should overlook. But, at what point did they start influencing the RAF? And what kind of influence did they have?

The Stasi probably viewed the RAF much like they viewed Carlos. Ultimately insignificant and not really worth putting much effort in to, but enough of a thorn in the side of their enemies to offer casual support in the form of weapons and occasionally shelter.


I don't know the answers to the above questions ... and the historical record is probably quite fuzzy on this one. But, I'd speculate that we could make a distinction between the first generation of the RAF -- and possibly the early second generation -- and the later RAF.

A distinction that revolves around the Stasi's influence and the role that played in transforming the class character of the group.

Mm... not really. It'd be more interesting to look at the influence of the PFLP in the RAF's development. There are tons of documents on the subject though, it isn't very fuzzy at all. Televisionaries, The Urban Guerrilla Concept for the RAF's own words, some interviews, the Bommi Bauman book, some other guys book I don't recall. Even more if you can read German.


Personally, I think the answers to these questions could probably be found in the publications of revolutionary groups in Germany from that era. How rank and file militants viewed these two groups, would help indicate, in my opinion, the class characteristics of these groups.

I believe they initially enjoyed a lot of support, at least from the student movements and elements of the more wealthy "left" in Germany, but it evaporated pretty quickly as they become more active and violent.


And I think looking past the RAF that is a trendy icon of leftism, and analysing their class character instead, is really what needs to be done. But it's something that doesn't really seem to have been done -- judging by how hard it is to find a decent revolutionary analysis of them on the internet.

I have a really great pamphlet from that period which actually discusses this issue, with a former J2M commando even, but I can't find it right now. Suffice to say, they talk a lot of shit.

Knight of Cydonia
3rd January 2007, 20:03
Originally posted by Amusing [email protected] 03, 2007 06:48 pm
And I think looking past the RAF that is a trendy icon of leftism,
for looking the past,do you remember the "black september" in the 1970-s?

do you guys think the RAF or PFLP had interfere in this incident?

Brownfist
3rd January 2007, 20:12
I do not think that the RAF had anything to do with "Black September". "Black September" was an armed faction of Arafat's Fatah party that was able to conduct activities with a certain level of autonomy from the Fatah party. As for the PFLP, there is some evidence to suggest that "Black September's" relative autonomy did allow for members of various Palestinian parties, including the PFLP, to become members and participate in their actions.

I think that it would be completely unfair to equate Black September to RAF. Rather, Black September tried to 1) make the world that Palestine even existed; 2) was trying to make the cost of Israel so high that the state would be forced to negotiate with Palestinians. People within Black September were committed Palestinian militants who were willing to give up their lives for Palestine, whereas RAF was just a bunch of intellectuals playing revolutionary. The RAF was very similar to the Weathermen in the USA.