A Question About Mao - Answers Appreciated

[Comrade Ceausescu]

well i heard from someone that mao was a petafile,any truth in this?lord i hope not cuz otherwise i love the guy.

[redstar2000]

Supposedly, it's been suggested that Mao spent the last years of his life traveling by special train through the Chinese countryside having sex with 12-year-old peasant girls. I see no way that anyone could "prove" this one way or another.

Rumors of sexual depravity have been a common ruling class tactic for well over a century with regard to revolutionaries...the Communist Manifesto even refers to them.

It's better to examine Mao's political ideas and practices (good or bad) and leave the sexual gossip to the bourgeois tabloids.

:cool:

[Comrade Ceausescu]

right you are

[Monks Aflame]

I heard because he was such a great leader and all, all the peasant girls wanted to sleep with him. Regardless... here's my bit on Mao...

He makes all the peasants melt their tools to create an iron industry, but its low quality and nothing comes of it, except the peasants starve and die. He makes himself a god-like figure, proving Marx correct, "Religion is the opiate of the people." During the 100 Flowers Blooming period, he tried at freedom of speech, when he let people criticize him. Of course, he didn't think anyone would, he thought only good things would be said about the great Mao. Of course, this wasn't the case, and all those who spoke suddenly "disappeared."

This is a bit personal for me, as I am Chinese and my mother experienced, and was a victim of, the Cultural Revolution. She's told me stories about how so many people (that she was personally friends with) committed suicide because of the abuse they got. Bourgeoisie or not, if a member of the Red Guard didn't like them, they got hell. The Red Guard refused to let my mother see a doctor when she had an injury to her spine because her father was a doctor. That's what Mao did. I praise him for being a military leader, I praise him for defeatined the corrupt Guo Ming Tang. But he fucked up.

(Edited by Monks Aflame at 5:47 am on July 27, 2003)


(Edited by Monks Aflame at 7:31 am on July 27, 2003)

[lostsoul]

i read a book, which i suggest you read if you are intrested in this, its called "the private life of chairman mao" by dr.li zhisui(his doctor).

In it he says Mao didn't pick up his own women, i believe it said, his head of security was responsible for that. And these girls weren't hookers or anything, just normal girls. They would meet mao in a dinner hall, they'd all eat and dance with mao, and then mao would ask them to come to his room(where they'd probally fuck).

To me it seems, simlair to a date...first he'd take them dinner and dancing, and if they wanted they'd go to his room. I don't see that as a bad thing.

On the question of the girls age's..i doubt anyone public would really know, only the girls and the guy who brought them. I don't know about 12 year olds..but in the book i recommended, the auther says he often saw mao with 19-30 year old girls. Although an 80 year old fucking an 19 year old is gross, its legal and the girl always has a choice. I have never read anything about the women getting money or any benfit except for the sex.

Many of my friends are chinese(some born here in north america..but many from mainland), and after talking to many of them, i am starting to belive the culture revolution was not as bad as its made out to be. Here's some reasons:
1) Many of my friends hate it because they're parents were abused during that time by the red gaurd(the students). But 80% of them admited their parents had some high power and were kind of really doing bad things. The culture revolution showed that no one is untouchable.

2) Many of my friends parents who were educated, had to work in the fields with the farmers and do hard labour. This was done for one of two possible reasons, in my opinion. For one, at that period, china had nuff beef with other countries, America and Russia namely. China was worried about getting nuked, so they figured if they moved the intelligent people around, then all will not be losed if a major city got nuked.

The second possible reason of moving the intelligent people was to educate them. Mao felt their was two types of univerities, one is the univeritsy of Toronto, or chicigo..real univerties...but the second univerty was society. He felt that society was a better university then the real ones. And wanted the educated people to learn from the people.

A few of my friends had to spend 1 or 2 years working with the farmers during this period(while they were entering univertity) and although it was hard, they said they taugth them alot about hard work and how society works.


The people's minds were too much focued in the old way of thinking, mao was trying to erase all the mistakes of the past and start writting china's dystany on a blank peice of paper.

I think he fucked up, but his princles were good for it, i think he underestimated how crazy the students would go. (i heard 1/3 of the houses in most major cities in china were raided at that time).

I have read alot about Mao, but no where have i read that he was a normal guy. He was a philosper, a poet, a miltiry man, a politician, etc...his mind didn't work like ours, and also from reading the book above, you will see that he could jusify almost anything and his brain did not think like ours. For example, his doctor told him to stop smoking, and mao told him, smoking is deep breathing..like medating.

I like mao's pre-revolutionary writtings, but i suggest the book again, simly because if will give you a clear picture of mao.(although the book is anti-mao..you have to understand that the auther had no money and recently left china..many say he did it for money..so dont' take the auther's view on the situation seriously. Just focus on Mao's conversations and dialongs..i believe thats better. The auther twists alot of stuff, and the book is actually banned in china.)


this is just my view..don't flame me for it :-)


Take care


p.s. It may intrest you all to know that i read that the culture revolution was actually orginally thought up by Stalin. I gave up on that plan many times, and was going to do it, but he died before he could.

[YKTMX]

My question about Mao would be, what the FUCK was that hair about?

[Comrade Ceausescu]

thanks "lotssoul".though i dont agree with the some of the stuff you said about mao because i love the guy,i respect your intelligence and the info you gave me.much love.peace.

[lostsoul]

Quote: from cheguevara717 on 3:00 am on July 28, 2003
thanks "lotssoul".though i dont agree with the some of the stuff you said about mao because i love the guy,i respect your intelligence and the info you gave me.much love.peace.

thank you. But please don't think that i don't respect mao. I strongly believe that no one is perfect, but when looking at mao we can see that he always had his country's intrests in mind.

He over came great odds, and many struggles. For that i consider him one of the greatest people in history. I hope i didn't give the impression that i dislike him. I gave the bad points about him since i have spoken alot about him and have many many dicussions regarding him with many people. I was just stating the main arguements people use to denouce him during the culture revolution.

He was a great man and changed more then 1/5 of the worlds people directly..and the rest of the world indirectly. He was a peasant, who rose up to control the most populous nation in the world. Although he made many mistakes, their is much people can learn from him.

Thats just my opinion :-)

take care

p.s. if you do decide to study mao more indepth, you should also study zhou enlai. He was with Mao from the beginning(though sometimes fighting each other), but he was the prime minister of china. Although some chinese hate mao and some love him, Zhou is mostly loved by everyone. They say Mao was like fire, and Zhou was like water, together they balanced china.

i hoped i helped.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

i'm glad that you like mao so much!so do i!i heard that over 2/3 of china considers mao to be something of a god.

[lostsoul]

Quote: from cheguevara717 on 5:06 am on July 28, 2003
i'm glad that you like mao so much!so do i!i heard that over 2/3 of china considers mao to be something of a god.

i don't know about him being thought of a god..but many old people respect mao alot..like the past 2 generations.

The younger don't seem to care(thats why i need to talk to old ass people to really discuss mao). I met my friends grandfather who told me he cried when mao died. Another guy said he cried when mao died(he was a primary school teacher, and all the kids were sad also, but didn't know what was really going on)

I think many people who knew about the kmt times, really respect mao because of his changes.

Although mao's plans didn't always go as planned, he had a good heart and he really did change china for the better. The newer generations don't know that, they only hear about his bad things.

I think as time goes on and more people try to as "amercian" as possible, people will start to forget about mao's work and his goodness.

[Monks Aflame]

Okay look. My grandparents, my grandfather namely, but both were treated real shitty. But better than most, a lot better. You know why? Because my grandfather was an amazing surgeon, somewhat of a medical celebrity. He was also amazingly nice, to everyone. A man of the highest moral caliber. He was personal friends with many of the Red Guards. But still... the Red Guard would harass my grandmother, because she was the head nurse at the local hospital. Purely because she was of a higher rank, they would strap embarassing-looking hats on her and hit her and shit. The Red Guard confiscated my grandfather's bicycle, without explanation, which he used to go to the market and get groceries, to get to work, and for excersize. They eventually gave it back, but only after extensive dealings with a lead member of the Red Guard (who he was good friends with).

Once, my grandparents got incredibly sick, my grandfather around 50, with cancer (which he eventually died from) and my grandmother 60, retired and in a wheelchair. The Red Guard came around and forced my mother she had to go off to the country for "re-education," couldn't stick around to make sure her parents were comfortable in what turned out to be their last few months, because, I quote, "All people get old and have to die." That's true, granted, but a bit cruel... no?

Sure, Mao's a cool guy, peasant leader, taking over the country, chasing out the KMT, but at what means? He killed 12 million Chinese with his Great Leap Forward, an attempt at industrializing China, by very silly ways. He smashed free speech and it was obvious that he was an authoritarian when he killed everyone who spoke out against him. He brainwashed the youth to fight against the "enemy", their neighbors, friends, families. They carried around bottles, and if they could fit one in your pant leg, you were bourgeois and they beat you and defamed you in front of everyone. They tore down signs to stores because that was the old way of thinking. You weren't allowed to have pictures of people wearing WEDDING DRESSES, because that was bourgeois and Western. That's the "old thinking" they destroyed.

As for changing China for the better... I don't know. The conflict between Taiwan and China has not ended yet. On maps in China, Taiwan isn't considered a different country. The Tibettan people are still ruled by the Chinese. There still isn't free speech and a lot of the civil liberties available in all other first world countries. And now China is just a new West. American styles of clothes and music and styles and shops everywhere. It's just another failure of Communism for the capitalists to point out. I would have loved Mao if he was just a military leader and left the fate of the country to someone who actually knew what to do.

[lostsoul]

Those are the two failures of the culture revolution. People getting framed or innocent people getting harmed.

Although i'm really sorry to hear about your grandparents, i'm sure they were good people. But if you think about it for an second, don't you think if a celebratity doctor and the head nurse got fucked up by the students, that it made people think that anyone could be next? i am pretty sure everyone in their departments were shitting in their pants after that because they knew if they fucked around they would be next.

I don't know, but people often forget that these red guards were students..not little kids..not old crazy people..but university students. over 1 million educated students tried to change china's culture.

Although, they did many bad things, i think they mostly played mind games. They tried to show everyone that no one was untouchable. Thats why they often attacked high ranked policians or officals. Publicly humliated people, etc...

i know during the culture revolution they did crazy things...they made a redlight mean go and a green light mean stop..etc..



On the Taiwan topic, its my understanding that mao never wanted that to be resolved. What i read was someone asked him, why doesn't he just take taiwan, and he responded by saying, china needed taiwan because with the constant threat of taiwan and america the chinese people were unified.

I think often when analysing these things, people fail to look at the situation in its context. Remember Mao didn't really have an obliglation to the rich or upperclass. The peaseants were suffering in china, and his goal was to help them, and although he fucked up many people, it seems he protected the peasants. It seems to me, he saw the city people's task was to help the peasants. And how can they help the peasants if they know nothing about them? or are currupt?

You also have to understand, during the wars, mao would order people to do something and they knew they'd die but they still did it. i think after over 30 years of fighting, he thought of the chinese people as soliders, and they would go through the hardships and suffering inorder to achieve success. He over estimated human beings.

anyway you look at it..for a country to be a true communist country they need to change their old ways and embrace the new ways. He just found a creative way to try to change the thinking of the people.

The dalima's use religion to get power over the people, although i respect the guys knowledge, i don't think he should have his own country. I heard that in tibet the dailma had many slaves and owned alot of the land. China didn't really kick him out, they merely told him he had to follow china's new policies and share the land. (i could be wrong on this..i read somewhere..i forgot..i think on this forum).

sorry about your grandparents again and your mom. I have nothing against them, i am just trying to point out the other side of the story. Although the culture revolution was a fuck up(mostly), i think his intentions were not to ruin the country, just to destory the old way of thinking.

Take care

[Comrade Ceausescu]

the idea of the cultural revolution was good.if your country's ecconomy relies on something like rice,why should just the peaseants have to do it?not fare!everyone in the country should do there equal share of it.castro himself went out and picked sugarcane for a week!

[lostsoul]

Quote: from cheguevara717 on 8:28 am on July 28, 2003
the idea of the cultural revolution was good.if your country's ecconomy relies on something like rice,why should just the peaseants have to do it?not fare!everyone in the country should do there equal share of it.castro himself went out and picked sugarcane for a week!

i have not studied the economy that much, but i'm not sure if they depended alot on rice as their primary source of income.

I suspect it was iron..but i'm not sure.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

whatever.u understand my point.

[Monks Aflame]

If you can ignore the injustices of the movement he galvanized, and the fact that he made himself a God, then he was an alright guy. Sure, rice fuels the economy, everyone should do it... but should all the doctors be pulled out of the hospital to go harvest grain?? There's more to a society than the main source of income. You need people to build houses, do scientific research, run public services... Its not all about rice.

And my other point: he did make himself into a God. All the kids would be in uniform, with the hats and red stars, with red books. You had to memorize passages from the red book, or get punished. There were songs written that all the kids had to learn and sing to celebrate Mao's greatness. People collected these Mao pins. I forget the statistic, but I know that the material that would be required to make at least a few fighter planes were, instead, used to manufacture millions of these pins. People who loved Mao would pin them to their skin, instead of clothes. People bled for him. It is very romantic, in a sense. And in another sense, its stupid.

I'm not completely anti-Mao, but I do think there's a false aura of faultlessness around him.

[lostsoul]

Originally posted by Monks [email protected] 31 2003, 07:41 AM
If you can ignore the injustices of the movement he galvanized, and the fact that he made himself a God, then he was an alright guy. Sure, rice fuels the economy, everyone should do it... but should all the doctors be pulled out of the hospital to go harvest grain?? There's more to a society than the main source of income. You need people to build houses, do scientific research, run public services... Its not all about rice.

And my other point: he did make himself into a God. All the kids would be in uniform, with the hats and red stars, with red books. You had to memorize passages from the red book, or get punished. There were songs written that all the kids had to learn and sing to celebrate Mao's greatness. People collected these Mao pins. I forget the statistic, but I know that the material that would be required to make at least a few fighter planes were, instead, used to manufacture millions of these pins. People who loved Mao would pin them to their skin, instead of clothes. People bled for him. It is very romantic, in a sense. And in another sense, its stupid.

I'm not completely anti-Mao, but I do think there's a false aura of faultlessness around him.
I agree with you totally....no one is perfect....but i personally feel that he didn't make the god like image of him.

I think the people choose him to be their god like figure and he couldn't/wouldn't stop them. When he was younger he wrote that religion is not very good...so during the cultural revolution the students tried to destory it. Althought in his old age, he said that he was kind of good because it gave people during bad times a sense of hope.

All the examples you used, were, to my knowledge, all inforced and thought up by others..and not his idea. He didn't want idol worship in china, thats why no streets are allowed to be named after people. and Mao wanted his body to be burned when he died, but instead the people voilated his wish's and instead preserved his body.

I think people didn't listen or care..they just used his name to jusify their actions.


Please don't get wrong, i don't think the culture revoultion was very good..but i think i understand it and i beleive that the outcome of it was not the outcome mao had planned for.


I don't really study mao in his later life, cause i don't think he was too good...but in his youth i greatly admire him, he worked very hard to change the world.


Take care