famous communists turning point

[lostsoul]

I know Che said that he decided to deciate his life to helping people after traveling around south america on his motorcycle and seeing the people who were extremely poor. Those trips basically made hiim become a communist.

But does anyone know what Mao, Lenin, Stalin, etc..turning points were?

Lenin, i have a feeling after his brother died. But i'm not 100% sure. Mao and Stalin i can't really figure it out.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I did research on Ho Chi Minh for a project in high school. He became interested in removing the French rather early... if I remember correctly there was an anti-French voice in his family.

Ho left Vietnam for the first time by joining the crew of a luxury ocean liner, I believe (I remember he was a cook). There, he saw the way the rich passengers lived... what they ate... saw what shit he had to feed to the proletarian crew... related how the rich on the liner lived to the way people in Vietnam lived.

The double standard of living bothered him then and there. He had a certain romantic vision of the United States. He was inspired by the liberal Jeffersonian calls for equality in the Declaration of Independence. "All men are created equal" and all that...

He came to the US briefly as a young man... To New York, and I believe Boston, maybe a third Northeastern city... and his romanticism of the United States was badly damaged. He saw segregation firsthand... saw how America treated its African-American population...

He was not totally disillusioned with the US just yet, though. He approached President Wilson at Versailles in 1919 (when the US and Europe were drawing up the peace treaty to end World War I) and asked him to support Vietnamese independence. Actually, I think he wanted to meet Wilson, but Wilson would not. Wilson was a racist and an imperialist who would have gave less than a damn whether Vietnam ever got away from France.

Soon after, he went to the USSR. I cannot remember whether this was before or after Stalin came to power... he took his dream of Vietnamese liberation and found a receptive audience. The aid from the USSR seems to have hardened his leftist tendencies and made him an all-out communist... of course, he would also take Chinese aid after the Maoist revolution there...

I hope this is of some help...

[Jesus Christ]

bravo
good summary
just a short note, Ho Chi Minh did receive AND give aid to the Soviets and Chinese, but he preferred to keep it to a sort of minimum level
he believed in fighting your own wars and resolving your own problems STRONGLY
but before any incredible development could be made, Uncle Ho died of a heart attack

as for the other leftist leaders, I have a good deal of knowledge about them, but couldnt tell what caused them to change theirs views

[bluerev002]

Quote: from Marxist in Nebraska on 10:36 pm on July 15, 2003
I did research on Ho Chi Minh for a project in high school. He became interested in removing the French rather early... if I remember correctly there was an anti-French voice in his family.

Ho left Vietnam for the first time by joining the crew of a luxury ocean liner, I believe (I remember he was a cook). There, he saw the way the rich passengers lived... what they ate... saw what shit he had to feed to the proletarian crew... related how the rich on the liner lived to the way people in Vietnam lived.

The double standard of living bothered him then and there. He had a certain romantic vision of the United States. He was inspired by the liberal Jeffersonian calls for equality in the Declaration of Independence. "All men are created equal" and all that...

He came to the US briefly as a young man... To New York, and I believe Boston, maybe a third Northeastern city... and his romanticism of the United States was badly damaged. He saw segregation firsthand... saw how America treated its African-American population...

He was not totally disillusioned with the US just yet, though. He approached President Wilson at Versailles in 1919 (when the US and Europe were drawing up the peace treaty to end World War I) and asked him to support Vietnamese independence. Actually, I think he wanted to meet Wilson, but Wilson would not. Wilson was a racist and an imperialist who would have gave less than a damn whether Vietnam ever got away from France.

Soon after, he went to the USSR. I cannot remember whether this was before or after Stalin came to power... he took his dream of Vietnamese liberation and found a receptive audience. The aid from the USSR seems to have hardened his leftist tendencies and made him an all-out communist... of course, he would also take Chinese aid after the Maoist revolution there...

I hope this is of some help...


That was great!! Where did you get some of the info from. Sad to say that when thinking of Communist leaders Ho Chi Minh doesnt come to mind right away like Stalin and Lenin does. He should be more well know unlike Stalin who is the only one taht is ever talked about at school. They do that on purpose to show the bad side of Communism. CH! They dont even mention Che, Bakas

[lostsoul]

Thank you very much!!!

I love hearing about things like this, because it really boosts my sprite by knowing how these great people began.

It might sound weird, but it makes them look more human in my eyes and its easier to relate to them.


So pleaseeee keep the info coming on other great people also.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Comrade Primus32302,

just a short note, Ho Chi Minh did receive AND give aid to the Soviets and Chinese, but he preferred to keep it to a sort of minimum level
Shortly after aligning himself with the USSR, Ho did some spying for them. Is that the aid you were talking about? And what aid was there to China? I do not at all doubt you, but I have never read that.

Comrade bluerev002,
I actually got most of that from an old-ish biography on Ho I got from the school library.

Stalin who is the only one taht is ever talked about at school. They do that on purpose to show the bad side of Communism
You are absolutely right. The extent of communism in my high school experience comes to two events:
1. Reading Animal Farm in ninth grade. The teacher used Orwell's piece on the rise of Stalin to suggest that Stalinism is the inevitable result of communist revolution. It works out to be a fine bit of propagandistic work... I wrinkled my nose at communism for two and a half years after that. Forgive me... I was young and stupid (at least younger and stupider than I am now).

2. A brief (emphasis on brief) overview of economic systems in my Economic Perspectives class during my junior year (11th grade). The comparison was between capitalism, socialism, and communism. With the last of those three made synonymous with Satanism in the US of A (where I'm from), one person in the class (not me) spoke up and said socialism sounded the best (a compromise, I suppose between private investment and social welfare--I should point out here the "socialism" we discussed was West European social democracy). The teacher very quickly and decisively declared capitalism the best of the three, without any sign of overt coercion. Thus, the teacher appeared to be the benevolent father figure, and the young man attracted to socialism can be forgiven for his youthful ignorance.

The teachers would have a much harder time attacking the left if they focused on the more benevolent (I would say "true" here) communists. Lenin and Trotsky are mentioned in passing as having opened the door to Stalin. Ho and Castro are not dealt with at all. El Che is not even acknowledged as having walked the Earth in the twentieth century. Rest assured, the schools do not bother to read into Marx's theory until college, which gives the schools plenty of years to brainwash the pupils.

Comrade lostsoul,
I know what you mean by the boost in spirit one gets in reading the humble beginnings of some larger-than-life persons. To see where someone like Lenin or Ho or Fidel or Che started, and then look at what they accomplished is to realize that you and I, though insignificant today, can change the world.

[redstar2000]

It's hard to say about some of these folks...whether there was a "single moment" that made them into communists.

One of the things they don't tell you about Stalin is that his father was a poor shoemaker and all his grandparents were serfs. He was a bright kid and went to a school run by the Russian Orthodox Church, probably where most of the kids were "higher class" than him. He was in constant trouble for reading "forbidden books" (that is, books from the west with notions of liberal democracy, separation of church and state, all the stuff that Russia had zero of). Finally they kicked him out...and perhaps that's when he realized he would have to be some kind of revolutionary.

With Mao, it began with rebellion against his own father. Mao wanted to be a student, not a farmer like his father. He says that when he "won" his revolt against his father (getting him to put up the money so that Mao could go to school), it taught him that rebellion was worthwhile. In May of 1919, there was a tremendous student uprising throughout the cities of eastern China over concessions to Japanese imperialism made by the Chinese government...Mao took part and thus began his life as a revolutionary.

About Trotsky's youth I don't know; surely we have a Trotskyist on the board who should know something about that.

And Fidel, of course, flirted with a career as a professional baseball player...it's not impossible that a couple of hanging curve-balls in front of some major league scouts...um, changed history.

:cool:

[lostsoul]

thanks redstar, i have read alot about mao and stalin and its intresting to see others view on their turning points.

To add on what you said about stalin, i also read and hear(i read one book on him, and then i got lazy and instead of reading another..just listened to a few tapes in which someone reads a book). And from that i heard/read his mother had to sell her body to make money after the father was not around(i forgot, but i believed he was a drunk and he left the family and died in a bar fight).


Although not a communists, i think Gandhi's turning point(according to his autobiography) was when he got kicked out of a train for sitting in first class(which was only for whites). He refused to leave, and they beat him. He spent the night sitting in a cold railway station and then got on the next train(this time not in first class). Then he had to take a bus to his final destination, but on his way a white man told him he couldn't sit in his seat, because the white man wanted it. So to avoid conflict gandhi was forced to sit beside the driver of the bus, but then later in the trip the same white guy told gandhi to move, since gandhi was near a window and the white guy wanted to smoke. Gandhi refused and in his book it says he held on to the side railing while the white guy pulled him. When he finally arrived at his destination, he knew his life had changed and he didn't care about law anymore, he just wanted to fight the injustices.


i don't know when stalin had a change of heart towards socialism, but i have a strong feeling he became an asshole after he was sent into excile and all his "comrades" sold him out and no one tried to help him. It seems to me, after his exile he started to not care about others(why should he anyways, they turned their back on him). I belive that is why he didn't hesisate to fuck up his own allies, because he understood they would backstab him the second they got a chance. Thats just my opinion.

Thanks again..keep it up...any info you have on anyone post it here.