RAAN-FP Communique 12/14/06

[Nachie]

RAAN-FP Communique 12/14/06

To all our comrades,

Early this morning, a cell of Falce Proletaria (RAAN-FP) attacked the contemptuously-named "Tiitz Salon" in the heart of downtown Modesto, California. Amongst other damage to the storefront, an insulting "Just 4 Men" sign as well as the door it was emblazoned on was shattered into a thousand pieces.

Falce Proletaria is a decentralized splinter faction of the RAANista tendency. We are committed to engaging in acts of clandestine direct action alongside and in solidarity with the broader activities of the Red & Anarchist Action Network (RAAN). Falce Proletaria makes no exclusive claim to insurrectionary tactics, and is as autonomous from the greater network as the various component parts of that network are from each other.

The so-called "Tiitz Salon" is a barber shop, massage parlor, and "gentlemen's club" in the very center of Modesto. We find not only its purpose, but also imagery and execution, to be repulsive. We wish to serve notice that we will not hesitate to physically take matters into our own hands when it comes to abolishing the cultures which engender rape and sexual violence.

To the racist Modesto Police Department, who only a few months ago (September 9th, 2006) were so cheerfully beating and tazing young people of color mere yards from the Salon: we express our deepest regrets in informing you that your control over downtown and the neighborhoods surrounding it is but a mere illusion.

Our action this morning represents both a symbolic tear in the suffocating veil of patriarchy AND a tangible blow to one of the many physical institutions of that system. We reject both the spectacle which sells womyn's bodies AND the commodification & categorization of all human sexuality. We denounce not only machismo, but heterocentrism as well. We will demonstrate to them new ways to live while slowly making the old ones impossible!

For all who are oppressed! For all who are imprisoned! For all who struggle!

RAANismo o muerte!

- Falce Proletaria (RAAN-FP)

WWW.REDANARCHIST.ORG


http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?...061214134916566 (http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20061214134916566)

[black magick hustla]

What makes you think that sexual workers are more opressed than other type of proletarians?

In fact, what makes you think that sexual workers would approve of this attack?

Being a sexual workers is more profiteable than other type of jobs, and this is why many of them exist.

This attack was meaningless--it wasn't against capital, it was against the demystification of sexuality. it was reactionary from the head to the toes. The attack bases itself on the reactionary concept that sexuality is "sacred", making its commodification a blasphemy. The commodification of life is awful, but sexuality is not more untouchable than any other aspect of life.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

This attack was meaningless

And thus is the crux of "RAAN."

Moved to propaganda.

[classwarveteran]

Sorry. Not nearly as good as a de-horn squad. <_<

[Whitten]

Lame reactionary attack which can only serve to give serious revolutionary leftists a bad name. You realise its the "workers" there who will suffer from the attack, right?

[Jazzratt]

Oh what a surprise, an anti-worker action by RAAN.

Places like that do not "engender rape and sexual violence", nor do they 2ncourage the patriachy. A woman chooses to work there and as marmot pointed out she will get paid quite a bit more than if she worked in a job that your group find &#39;acceptable&#39;. So why the moralising of what women do exactly?

[TC]

Another reacftionary thing that Nachie wants to take credit for.


Once again, RAAN has taken an action like their early anti-communist attacks which nazis would approve; RAAN is by its actions, essentially a very ineffective group of rightwing thugs. Like a Taliban vice squad or some nazi brown shirts they would impose bourgeois morality on women with force.

[Wanted Man]

I applaud this action by RAAN. Certainly, the wimmin working there will now realize how sinful they have been, and will immediately run into the arms of their RAAN saviors, confess their sins, and be cleansed.

[Whitten]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 15, 2006 06:31 am
Moved to propaganda.
Maybe it should have been moved to opposing Ideologies?

[Honggweilo]

Alot of those women in those parlors are trying to provide their families overseas in the Philipines or Thailand by doing this kind of (in this case) disgusting job. Nice going destroying their source of income&#33; <_<. Why not join up with the IWW (which has a prostitute section) and fight for workers rights of prostitutes? that would have been usefull direct action

[Wanted Man]

Trying to add up "RAAN + Useful" is like dividing by zero. But you&#39;re right. I mean, what if these idiots were to fuck that store up so badly, that they&#39;d have to close it(I doubt that would happen though, as I don&#39;t expect the TaliRAAN to be that efficient)? The people working there might become unemployed or something, and end up on the streets, even less dignified than before. But hey, nevermind that, fuck the workers, anarchyyyyyy&#33;&#33;&#33;1&#33;1 (for the record: I do have infinitely more respect for class struggle anarchists)

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 03:35 pm
I applaud this action by RAAN. Certainly, the wimmin working there will now realize how sinful they have been, and will immediately run into the arms of their RAAN saviors, confess their sins, and be cleansed.
lol

i really did laugh out loud :P

[Wanted Man]

Heh, there&#39;s a bit of sexual innuendo there. It reminded me of that GTA San Andreas mission where you have to pick up a hooker, but instead she&#39;s been kidnapped by an exorcist in his big limousine: "Now remove your filthy vestments, you whore&#33;" :lol: &#39;Cuz the TaliRAAN is really down with lame attempts at depriving woma-- err, womyn of what might be their only income... just say it&#39;s against sexual exploitation, and it&#39;s really cool and radical&#33; But a guy vandalizing a factory would rightly get his ass kicked.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

the TaliRAAN

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[bolshevik butcher]

And yet another useless action by RAAN. Great an attack on sex workers. Why not try and work with the workers? How aboutshwoing some solidarity or something rather than wreckong their place of work. Would you run about ruining someones office or factory and declare it a great revolutionary action or something?

[Wanted Man]

Haha, pretty funny to see just about everyone in this thread condemn this crap. RevLeft uniting against utter bullshit is always a nice sight to watch.

[which doctor]

And all the supporters of the reactionary bourgeoisie come out of the closet&#33;

How is breakin&#39; a few windows and smashing a storefront of an obviously sexist business at all anti-worker?

[LSD]

How is breakin&#39; a few windows and smashing a storefront of an obviously sexist business at all anti-worker?

Because it&#39;s workers who will have to clean up the damage, workers who will pay for it, and workers who will end up unemployed if the business shuts down.

It certainly won&#39;t hurt the owners of the store as they doubtlessly have insurance and will be back up and running in less than a day -- after, of course, forcing their maintanance workers to double shift without pay.

There are a lot of real problems faced by sex workers, but this "attack" doesn&#39;t address any of them. All it does is make Nachie feel "revolutionary" &#39;cause he got to smash something.

But if you ask the workers who actually have to work there everyday what they want, I can promise you that a "sexist sign" is the least of their concerns.

Real political work isn&#39;t as "glamorous" as mindlessly breaking things, but unlike Nachie&#39;s approach, it actually has a reasonable chance of accomplishing something.


Amongst other damage to the storefront, an insulting "Just 4 Men" sign as well as the door it was emblazoned on was shattered into a thousand pieces.

So a bunch of kids broke a door? Wow, thanks for the "communique"... :rolleyes:

Why is it that the smaller and less important an organization is, the more words it uses to describe itself? "A splinter faction of the RAANista tendency"? Fighting guerlla war on the revolutionary streets of ....Modesto???

I suppose it&#39;s just a coincidence that Nachie posts out of Modesto too. :D

Look, Nachie, the next time you want to make up a "revolutionary bulletin", at least show the comon sense to make it sound revolutionary. &#39;Cause this? This reads like something that Pat Robertson would be proud to have his name attached to.

So how about you lose the "splinter cell" bullshit and get involved in some real political work. From what I understand your home town has numerous pressing issues that could use a revolutionary leftist perspective.

Surely that would be a better application of your time than playing amateur vice squad?

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 09:29 pm
And all the supporters of the reactionary bourgeoisie come out of the closet&#33;
No, Nachie has been out for a long time.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by WWSD+December 15, 2006 05:27 pm--> (WWSD @ December 15, 2006 05:27 pm)
[email protected] 15, 2006 09:29 pm
And all the supporters of the reactionary bourgeoisie come out of the closet&#33;
No, Nachie has been out for a long time. [/b]
Where does Nachie support the reactionary, sexist bourgeoisie? That&#39;s right, he doesn&#39;t, you do&#33;

[TC]

Originally posted by FoB+December 15, 2006 10:34 pm--> (FoB &#064; December 15, 2006 10:34 pm)
Where does Nachie support the reactionary, sexist bourgeoisie? That&#39;s right, he doesn&#39;t, you do&#33; [/b]



No, of course not, RAANista elite crack spliter cell commando units supports the right and duty of wimmin to obey traditional morals and modesty standards and denounces western bourgeois decadent womyn who display their bodies like uncovered slabs of meat&#33;

Put on your veils, the taliRAAN is coming to liberate us&#33;




Mullah Nachie
cultures which engender rape and sexual violence.

I see Brother Nachie has been paying attention to Sheikh Taj din al-Halaly&#39;s speechs on the cause of rape and sexual assult (http://www.abc.net.au/sydney/stories/s1774486.htm). The taliRAAN knows where the blame lies: immodest wimmin&#33;

[Entrails Konfetti]

Even the SLA did more effective things&#33;
They got poor people free food.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 10:34 pm
Where does Nachie support the reactionary, sexist bourgeoisie? That&#39;s right, he doesn&#39;t, you do&#33;
So would you care to defend this ridiculous "action"?

Which reminds me, I love how this is basically an official statement from the TaliRAAN-Fake Proletarians. A communiqué, saying: "I went to a massage parlor, broke a window, and kicked a door in". What&#39;s the matter Nachie, were their services not satisfying enough?

Indeed, my theory is that a few nights ago, Nachie&#39;s girlfriend dumped him, he got drunk, and he vandalized the first building in sight, then the next day he wrote this little communiqué to make it look like he was defending wo-- wimmin&#39;s rights. :lol: But I don&#39;t blame you N., after lots of alcohol, we all start destroying stuff. But please limit the destruction to your own toilet, or the one of the person hosting you.

[KC]

Wow. This is just fucking hilarious. Who would&#39;ve thought that FoB would come out to defend such a blatantly pointless, anti-worker action? :rolleyes:

[Folk The System]

hmm i really do have mixed feelings about this. i dont like "gentlemen&#39;s clubs" because they put women in a position to be sexually harrassed (well they work at a strip club so they obviously expect it) and i think it would be an overall degrading experience for the woman. but the girls that work there could work for a number of reasons:

1. they need money, lack other skills, and know that it pays well
2. they have low self estem and think it&#39;s all their good for
3. they actually enjoy it as a profession

of course these are broad and general and of course theres probably many other reasons. now, i agree with RAAN that sex shops are bad but i don&#39;t think they should be abolished, because you dont solve problems through reactionary actions, basically taking out the root of the problem and not the leaves. the root of the problem is a capitalist (and paternalistic) society that can force people to do jobs they dont want to do, and can break down a womans self esteem to where she thinks shes the only thing shes good for is being used by men.Even if someone felt that strip clubs and the like SHOULD be abolished, i dont think this is the best course of action. their energy would be better sent working for an actual revolution (again the roots isntead of the leaves) because in a post revolutionary society women would not need to work at strip clubs and the like if they didn&#39;t want to. this means all the women who were somewhat forced into being strippers by the capitalist system would be doing what they wanted to do as a job (of course).

to all the people that said "they chose this line of work its up to them", that doesn&#39;t mean they should be stuck working in a sexist environment just because thats the hand they were dealt by capitalism

sorry if i contradicted myself or soemthing in there, its quite late and i might need to edit this tomorrow...

[BreadBros]

Fighting guerlla war on the revolutionary streets of ....Modesto???

I suppose it&#39;s just a coincidence that Nachie posts out of Modesto too. :D

Umm, Modesto has been the center of the huge illegal immigrant debate in California. Its a major destination for immigrants seeking work in agricultural fields and it also happens to be a very racist municipal government with a very reactionary police force at it&#39;s helm, so I&#39;m not exactly sure why you&#39;re trivializing a place that has been the center of not only major current worker&#39;s struggles but also past ones (such as the creation of the United Farm Worker&#39;s).

[Enragé]

yea and thats what nachie should be active in doing, supporting those actual struggles

[OneBrickOneVoice]

thos has got to be the dumbest shit I&#39;ve heard on this thread ever today. BTW this is great:


TaliRAAN

:lol:

[rouchambeau]

Isn&#39;t it odd that the so-called "anti-capitalists" who condemn this action are saying things like "it&#39;s okay for women to sell their bodies for a wage."

[KC]

Isn&#39;t it odd that the so-called "anti-capitalists" who condemn this action are saying things like "it&#39;s okay for women to sell their bodies for a wage."

Uh, they&#39;re not selling their bodies. They&#39;re selling their labour-power. Just like any other worker.

[LSD]

Isn&#39;t it odd that the so-called "anti-capitalists" who condemn this action are saying things like "it&#39;s okay for women to sell their bodies for a wage."

And you think the solution to wage-slavery is to smash doors and break windows?

Of course it&#39;s not "OK" to have to sell your labour, that&#39;s the whole reason that we&#39;re revolutionary leftists. But Nachie wasn&#39;t protesting capitalism when he broke that door, he was protesting sex.

The point isn&#39;t that it&#39;s "good" that these women have to work to live, the point is that it&#39;s no worse than what every other worker has to do; and, more importantly, the point is that the problem isn&#39;t the "commodification of sex", the problem is the exploitation of the working class.

The tone of Nachie&#39;s "communique" was moralistic, not class-conscious, and as such it constitutes a reactionary attack not on the instution of wage-slavery but on liberal sexuality.

There are a lot of real problems faced by sex workers, but this "attack" doesn&#39;t address any of them. All it does is make Nachie feel "revolutionary" &#39;cause he got to smash something.

But if you ask the women who actually have to work there everyday what they want, I can promise you that a "sexist sign" is the least of their concerns. If Nachie actually gave a damn about their class interests, he&#39;d be out working for their unionization or a hundred other causes instead of playing amateur "splinter cell".


Umm, Modesto has been the center of the huge illegal immigrant debate in California.

It also happens to be where Nachie&#39;s at.

And, no I&#39;m not trivializing the city or its history, I&#39;m just pointing out the humour in that for all his bluster and overwrought language, Nachie&#39;s post was actually just an announcement that he had gone out and kicked in a door.

[Nachie]

yawn

[Sabocat]

So attacking no capitalist bourgeois institution is valid?

You could make the statement that tearing down the Stock Exchange building would harm the employees there too couldn&#39;t you? Does that mean we shouldn&#39;t want to do that either? Where does that line end out of curiosity?



We wish to serve notice that we will not hesitate to physically take matters into our own hands when it comes to abolishing the cultures which engender rape and sexual violence.

I support this action as I would think most leftists.

Yes, the owners insurance will pay for the damage...this time. But believe me, at some point, if attacks like this on these kind of establishments continues, insurance companies will stop underwriting that risk. Much as they have done in areas of hurricanes and flood to homeowners.

At the very least, actions like this will get the media attention and cause people to discuss the topics of our current culture.


But Nachie wasn&#39;t protesting capitalism when he broke that door, he was protesting sex.

Incorrect. He was protesting, and I quote... "the cultures which engender rape and sexual violence".

Something that should be supported.

[Whitten]

So attacking no capitalist bourgeois institution is valid?

You could make the statement that tearing down the Stock Exchange building would harm the employees there too couldn&#39;t you? Does that mean we shouldn&#39;t want to do that either? Where does that line end out of curiosity?

Contributing to poverty isnt a revolutionary action. Unless you plan to be able to seize the means of production off of the capitalists these attacks are petty and counter-productive. This isnt revolution, its terrorism.


I support this action as I would think most leftists.

The trend in this thread would suggest otherwise. And Leftists are pro-worker, this is post-leftist bollocks.


Yes, the owners insurance will pay for the damage...this time. But believe me, at some point, if attacks like this on these kind of establishments continues, insurance companies will stop underwriting that risk. Much as they have done in areas of hurricanes and flood to homeowners.

At the very least, actions like this will get the media attention and cause people to discuss the topics of our current culture.

If they manage to get any media attention at all it will just cast the attackers in a bad light and will make people think we&#39;re all like that. And in the end so what if you can get them closed down, its likely to hurt the workers more than the owners.


Incorrect. He was protesting, and I quote... "the cultures which engender rape and sexual violence".

Something that should be supported.

Firstly this establishment doesnt encourage rape. Secondly its social conservatism to wish to effectivly "outlaw" (for lack of a better word) social activities such as this which are entirly consential and which don&#39;t harm anybody, because you feel they may lead to the moral degredation of society.


Isn&#39;t it odd that the so-called "anti-capitalists" who condemn this action are saying things like "it&#39;s okay for women to sell their bodies for a wage."

Its ok for all workers to sell their labour for a wage. What sort of fantasy dream world do you live in?

[KC]

So attacking no capitalist bourgeois institution is valid?

You could make the statement that tearing down the Stock Exchange building would harm the employees there too couldn&#39;t you? Does that mean we shouldn&#39;t want to do that either? Where does that line end out of curiosity?

Slippery slope fallacy.

Obviously the benefits of the action must be weighed against the cost of those performing the action and those directly (and indirectly) affected by the action to determine whether it will be productive.

This action obviously did more harm than good. Nachie kicks a door in, the owner&#39;s insurance pays for it, his rate increases and he pays his workers less in order to maintain profit. At best, this action did nothing more than break a door. At worst, it could have cost some workers their jobs. What effect does it have on the owner? Not much.


Yes, the owners insurance will pay for the damage...this time. But believe me, at some point, if attacks like this on these kind of establishments continues, insurance companies will stop underwriting that risk. Much as they have done in areas of hurricanes and flood to homeowners.

And that has to happen how many times? At what expense?


At the very least, actions like this will get the media attention and cause people to discuss the topics of our current culture.

I hardly doubt that Nachie kicking in a door got media attention aside from the typical blurb in the police blotter of the local paper, next to reports about drunk driving, common theft, and other acts of petty vandalism. I&#39;m sure also that it wouldn&#39;t have any political tone to it; it would just say "Some kids kicked in a door".

Although, if they actually did do some kind of action similar to this that got media attention, what do you think the reaction would be? Do you think it would cause people to "discuss the topics of our current culture" or do you think it would create outrage at such an act? Let&#39;s say that they blew up the club. What do you think would happen? Do you think that would lead to people questioning society? I highly doubt that. Instead, it would lead to a bunch of biased media reports about the incident leading to outrage and further alienation from our goals. It could even go so far as to foster a reaction.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Zampanò@December 16, 2006 01:21 am
Wow. This is just fucking hilarious. Who would&#39;ve thought that FoB would come out to defend such a blatantly pointless, anti-worker action? :rolleyes:
I just fail to see how this action is anti-worker. You haven&#39;t made one valid point in this argument yet.

[KC]

I just fail to see how this action is anti-worker. You haven&#39;t made one valid point in this argument yet.


Then you&#39;re blind or stupid (which is it?). Myself, as have others, have already made this point.

[LSD]

So attacking no capitalist bourgeois institution is valid?

No, sometimes physically attacking bourgeois institutions is the right idea, especially if it&#39;s a part of a larger campaign. But only if doing so is actually in the interests of the working class.

When a factory runs scab workers, for instance, it&#39;s not out of line to sabotage the machines.

But kicking in some strip club&#39;s door didn&#39;t accomplish anything. Vandalism is always a risk when you run a late-night business and there&#39;s no way that an insurance company would drop a strip club &#39;cause their window got broke.

And besides, even if they did and the club got shut down ...so what? Our aim isn&#39;t to unemploy workers, it&#39;s to empower them.

In the context of a strip club, that means helping the strippers to get unionized and to fight for better wages and maybe a comprehensive service plan. Our aim being to get them organized and radicalized, not terrorized and undemployed&#33;

Nachie, however, doesn&#39;t seem to give a damn about what would actually be useful here. He just wants to break things.

And since, rather tellingly, the notion of sexual "commodification" offends his morals, he&#39;s going to impose his particular brand of conservatism on the rest of the world and try to get a bunch of women unemployed solely for daring to expose their bodies.

How "revolutionary"... <_<


Incorrect. He was protesting, and I quote... "the cultures which engender rape and sexual violence".

The only people who think that strip clubs "engender rape" are Islamic clerics ...and apparently Nachie.

[Whitten]

Originally posted by FoB+December 16, 2006 08:54 pm--> (FoB @ December 16, 2006 08:54 pm)
Zampanò@December 16, 2006 01:21 am
Wow. This is just fucking hilarious. Who would&#39;ve thought that FoB would come out to defend such a blatantly pointless, anti-worker action? :rolleyes:
I just fail to see how this action is anti-worker. You haven&#39;t made one valid point in this argument yet. [/b]
This action harms workers while the bourgeois owners remain unaffected = anti-worker action.

[chimx]

nowhere in the communique did "nachie" claim responsibility for this action. in the past, there have been two raan affiliated collectives in the modesto area since raan began. One was a group called CVAC, and another was DAAA. The latter has broken up, but I have heard that there are individuals that still affiliate themselves with the red & anarchist action network.

I have no idea if RAAN-FP is affiliated with either of these former collectives. I know RAAN-FP has been around quite some time in theory, as they released a communique about 2 years ago called for revolutionary violence or something like that, if memory serves.

People that see merit in the notion of anarchist and communist unity in action are numerous in the modesto area. As far as I know, Nachie is still up in oregon, where he just gave a workshop on raan and venezuela a week ago (see raan&#39;s network history for details (http://www.redanarchist.org/history/index.html)). I would appreciate it if you cease with the condescending assumption that raan exists solely as a mouthpiece for nachie. He is certainly an active affiliate, he is not the totality of raan.

--

As far as the action goes, denouncing comrades for vandalizing a capitalist business is as petty as those that denounced anarchists throwing rocks at Starbucks and Mcdonalds during the wto riots in seattle. To quote raan&#39;s principles and direction:


Members of the network are encouraged to involve themselves in a variety of activities that they feel to be fulfilling towards their political consciousness (and more importantly, their immediate lives). RAAN activists have achieved this in a variety of ways.
...
...it has been where RAAN members have come together to create projects in the name of the organization itself that the most promising results have been shown.
...
Instead of dealing solely with organization and the modes of discourse involved in interfacing with the powers that assume themselves to be, we choose to focus instead on material gains in the fields of alternative institutions that have a tangible presence in our communities and yet are completely independent of organizations which already impose themselves so much on the community that we feel obliged to enter their arena before constructing our own.

We confess to the intentional vagueness of these ideas, but feel that not only would it be impossible for a group such as ours to produce a general action programme at this stage, but that it would in fact be counterproductive. As we grow, each member and regional collective in RAAN will be able to decide what are the best uses of its resources. We see nothing more hopeful and exciting then to leave the development of the network to the individuals who will, by participating in it, give it life.

That is to say, raan stresses active participation over theoretical banter, opting to synthesize the networks direction and "action program" organically through our experiences in our own communities.

Unless you are from the Modesto community, I don&#39;t understand how you can speak so confidently over the moral implications of this action. I am not familiar with this business, nor are you. Unless you are from Modesto, you are not an authority on the nature of this particular sex shop.

That said, on a personal level, I am in favor of healthy sexuality. Men and Women&#39;s strip clubs can potentially be such a place for the healthy exploration of ones sexuality. However, plenty of strip joints exist that are certainly exploitive and demeaning to men and women. This is hardly a black and white issue, so please refrain from making sweeping generalizations about an activist groups work unless you know all the details.

[Nachie]

http://www.tiitzsalon.com/

[Whitten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2006 09:48 am
http://www.tiitzsalon.com/
Could you elaborate on how this encourages rape and sexual violence? Whats next, you going to attack clothing stores for selling revealing outfits to women?

[encephalon]

Duuuude, For a minute I thought the new word of the day was "taliRAAN".. but then I saw this:


Contributing to poverty isnt a revolutionary action. Unless you plan to be able to seize the means of production off of the capitalists these attacks are petty and counter-productive. This isnt revolution, its terrorism.

And realized the word of the day hasn&#39;t changed for years now.

You know, in any other instance, most of you would have condemned the owners of the strip club. It seems a great many people have become irate merely because nachie announced this.

If you think it&#39;s all peaches and cream working at a strip club: it isn&#39;t. The fact is, there most definitely exists a certain sexual exploitation that isn&#39;t part of your typical employment. Believe it or not, strip joints do endorse the objectification of females, which is a legitimate concern.

How many of you blankly support hugh heffner? If you do, you are not a leftist by any means. Hugh heffner makes a living through the exploitation of women, and so too does the owner of a strip club. My understanding is that we&#39;re against this.

This wasn&#39;t an act against workers. Nobody kicked in a stripper&#39;s grill; somebody kicked in a door. It might not have been pro-worker, but it certainly wasn&#39;t an act against the workers of the establishment. To suggest that RAAN was acting in an anti-worker fashion is a straw man of the highest degree.

So yeah: it may have been petty and rather inconsequential except for the response that so many here have provided--but don&#39;t call it fascist or anti-worker by any means. That&#39;s complete rubbish, and you know it.

[Sabocat]

Firstly this establishment doesnt encourage rape. Secondly its social conservatism to wish to effectivly "outlaw" (for lack of a better word) social activities such as this which are entirly consential and which don&#39;t harm anybody, because you feel they may lead to the moral degredation of society.

It&#39;s an establishment that promotes commodification of women and encourages misogynist ego.

"Entirely consential" is also laughable. Yes the hyper exploited have real choices...exploitation or starvation. This is economic conscription no less repulsive than recruiting from poor neighborhoods for the Army. That&#39;s why establishments like this tend to be in the poorer sections of cities.

[bcbm]

Oh no, a shitty club got fucked up&#33; :(


Speaking of moralistic... <_<

And to the "taliRAAN" dipshits, give me a fucking break. The left has long had a critique of the commodification of the human body and sex, not to mention the culture of exploitation and violence against women that has been created. While the target of this act may or may not have been ideal, to suggest they want women to "cover up" is completely fucking absurd, and you all know it.

[Whitten]

Originally posted by Sabocat+December 18, 2006 10:38 am--> (Sabocat @ December 18, 2006 10:38 am)

Firstly this establishment doesnt encourage rape. Secondly its social conservatism to wish to effectivly "outlaw" (for lack of a better word) social activities such as this which are entirly consential and which don&#39;t harm anybody, because you feel they may lead to the moral degredation of society.

It&#39;s an establishment that promotes commodification of women and encourages misogynist ego.

"Entirely consential" is also laughable. Yes the hyper exploited have real choices...exploitation or starvation. This is economic conscription no less repulsive than recruiting from poor neighborhoods for the Army. That&#39;s why establishments like this tend to be in the poorer sections of cities. [/b]
Exploitation or Starvation? So that give syou the right to choose starvation for them&#33;? Give me a break.


Black Banner Big Gun
And to the "taliRAAN" dipshits, give me a fucking break. The left has long had a critique of the commodification of the human body and sex, not to mention the culture of exploitation and violence against women that has been created. While the target of this act may or may not have been ideal, to suggest they want women to "cover up" is completely fucking absurd, and you all know it.

Is it that absurd? They say they targeted this place because it encourages "a culture of rape and sexual violence". So women working in revealing outfits and such encourages sexual violence? Their justification may not be as bad as "The Qu&#39;ran says..." but it is still essentially what they want to accomplish.

[BBBG]

Is it that absurd? They say they targeted this place because it encourages "a culture of rape and sexual violence". So women working in revealing outfits and such encourages sexual violence? Their justification may not be as bad as "The Qu&#39;ran says..." but it is still essentially what they want to accomplish.

I believe they are suggesting that the promotion and display of women as sexual products to be bought and to serve every whim of "gentlemen", instead of as people with their own desires, is part of a culture that dehumanizes women, which makes violence against them easier. It isn&#39;t about what they are or are not wearing.

[Whitten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2006 05:48 pm

Is it that absurd? They say they targeted this place because it encourages "a culture of rape and sexual violence". So women working in revealing outfits and such encourages sexual violence? Their justification may not be as bad as "The Qu&#39;ran says..." but it is still essentially what they want to accomplish.

I believe they are suggesting that the promotion and display of women as sexual products to be bought and to serve every whim of "gentlemen", instead of as people with their own desires, is part of a culture that dehumanizes women, which makes violence against them easier. It isn&#39;t about what they are or are not wearing.
Shouldnt the women there have a right to dehumanize themselves? I find it strange that there are so many libertarians defending the removal of freedoms in order to uphold the moral status of society.

[Guest]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2006 05:52 pm
Shouldnt the women there have a right to dehumanize themselves? I find it strange that there are so many libertarians defending the removal of freedoms in order to uphold the moral status of society.
Do you think such a free choice really exists in a capitalist society? I don&#39;t think they&#39;re defending morals (again), I believe they are fighting against the commodification of sex and women, which promotes violence. It has nothing to do with morals, it has to do with sexism and objectification.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2006 07:59 pm
yawn
That is exactly what I thought when I rad your description of this reactio.... sorry "revolutionary" piece of clandestine warfare against the sexist capitalist infastructure&#33;

Go you&#33;

PS - You are a complete fool.

http://www.1stingersoll.ca/graphics/calanders/jester.gif

[Guest]

Do you think such a free choice really exists in a capitalist society? I don&#39;t think they&#39;re defending morals (again), I believe they are fighting against the commodification of sex and women, which promotes violence. It has nothing to do with morals, it has to do with sexism and objectification.

And kicking in a door isn&#39;t going to aid the destruction of the social relations which give rise to commodity fetishism.

[Whitten]

Originally posted by Guest+December 18, 2006 06:02 pm--> (Guest @ December 18, 2006 06:02 pm)
[email protected] 18, 2006 05:52 pm
Shouldnt the women there have a right to dehumanize themselves? I find it strange that there are so many libertarians defending the removal of freedoms in order to uphold the moral status of society.
Do you think such a free choice really exists in a capitalist society? I don&#39;t think they&#39;re defending morals (again), I believe they are fighting against the commodification of sex and women, which promotes violence. It has nothing to do with morals, it has to do with sexism and objectification. [/b]
You completly contradict youself. You say this isnt about morals yet you claim this is about sexism and the "commodification of women". What are these things if not moral constructs?

No, no one is truly free in a capitalist society. But aparently they are more free than these "leftists" (and I use the term only because they would call themselves such) would have them be. They have the freedom to decide whether they want to commodify themselves. But aparently not under RAAN&#39;s version of leftism.

Now the women could be working there for one of two reasons:
1) They made a choice to work there. Maybe it pays really well, maybe they fond that works easier than any alternative, possibly they even like the work...
2) Its the only way they know to stay out of poverty.

In the case of no. 1 the RAANistas would have attacked the womens&#39; right to commodify themselves. In the case of number two they may have condemned them to poverty.

All workers commodify their labour, thats what we do to survive. Its just because in this particular case there is a side of sexuality to it that we are having this discussion. So how can you claim this isnt about the morality of sexuality?

[BBBG]

You completly contradict youself. You say this isnt about morals yet you claim this is about sexism and the "commodification of women". What are these things if not moral constructs?

Sexism and commodification/objectification are facets of oppression and patriarchal dominance... not "moral constructs."

In any case, I was merely trying to clarify their position, I am not interested in defending it. I don&#39;t think this action accomplished much of anything, but I am not going to condemn it, because I don&#39;t really give a fuck.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2006 09:48 am
http://www.tiitzsalon.com/
Hey, do you want to destroy them... or to advertise them?

How about striking some target that the police would really defend?

Luís Henrique

[ahab]

Nachie, I think it was a great, it&#39;s nice to finally hear about people doing something.

To the rest of you (except chimx and sabotoe) you seem like hypocrites, I always hear people on this forum *****ing and moaning about womans rights and getting active and than when a fucking strip joint is terrorized you get all defensive of the GODDAMN strip joint&#33; wtf&#33;

[ahab]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 04:24 pm
Trying to add up "RAAN + Useful" is like dividing by zero.
what about nullity?

besides what sense do you make, your a stalinist

[kaaos_af]

What one RAAN branch does is not representative of the whole network. I&#39;m in RAAN, and I neither support it or oppose it. I&#39;m not on the ground, I don;t know what the situation is there et cetera. Nachie had nothing to do with this, so keep him out of this.

[Honggweilo]

Originally posted by ahab+December 20, 2006 04:30 am--> (ahab &#064; December 20, 2006 04:30 am)
[email protected] 15, 2006 04:24 pm
Trying to add up "RAAN + Useful" is like dividing by zero.
what about nullity?

besides what sense do you make, your a stalinist [/b]
More sense then the TaliRAAN will ever make, primitivist prick. Go drop out and burn down some schools or something, because there so oppressive... Try to fighting for workers rights for a change instead of unemploying people. And if you have to beat shit up, make sure you benefit something else besides then a personal ego. If you have prove these "womyn" are harrased, mistreated, blackmailed or abused by the salon owner, kick his ass instead. Now you just might gave those "womyn" a paycutt because of the repair costs.

[Whitten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2006 04:24 am
Nachie, I think it was a great, it&#39;s nice to finally hear about people doing something.

To the rest of you (except chimx and sabotoe) you seem like hypocrites, I always hear people on this forum *****ing and moaning about womans rights and getting active and than when a fucking strip joint is terrorized you get all defensive of the GODDAMN strip joint&#33; wtf&#33;
You oppose womens rights by supporting this act. You oppose their right to sell their labour in this way because it offends you. And I&#39;m glad you used the word "terrorized" because thats exactly what this is terrorism, not revolution.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by Whitten+December 20, 2006 01:56 pm--> (Whitten @ December 20, 2006 01:56 pm)
[email protected] 20, 2006 04:24 am
Nachie, I think it was a great, it&#39;s nice to finally hear about people doing something.

To the rest of you (except chimx and sabotoe) you seem like hypocrites, I always hear people on this forum *****ing and moaning about womans rights and getting active and than when a fucking strip joint is terrorized you get all defensive of the GODDAMN strip joint&#33; wtf&#33;
You oppose womens rights by supporting this act. You oppose their right to sell their labour in this way because it offends you. And I&#39;m glad you used the word "terrorized" because thats exactly what this is terrorism, not revolution. [/b]
Umm...you don&#39;t actually think the women in these places actually enjoy their work (or rather, that if they had a choice they would still be working there) do you? I mean using a Marxist perspective I see that it is neccessary for their own survival that these women sell their bodies for money. But I doubt if they could choose they would still dance around poles fulfilling male fantasies...

Then again, you might have first-hand experience of this

[Jazzratt]

Oi Nachie (or anyone who knows) - what did the women who work there have to say about this? Did they think your paternalistic moralising was a good thing? Did they even give a fuck who you or your group of adolescents playing at revolution are?

[KC]

Umm...you don&#39;t actually think the women in these places actually enjoy their work (or rather, that if they had a choice they would still be working there) do you?

Nobody said they did. But a lot of workers hate their job. What makes this situation any different?


I mean using a Marxist perspective I see that it is neccessary for their own survival that these women sell their bodies for money.

How many times do I have to say this? They&#39;re not selling their bodies; they&#39;re selling their labour power&#33; Saying that they "sell their bodies" is completely moralistic and frankly bullshit.

[Honggweilo]

How many times do I have to say this? They&#39;re not selling their bodies; they&#39;re selling their labour power&#33; Saying that they "sell their bodies" is completely moralistic and frankly bullshit hehe selling their bodies would be like self-entrepeneuring slavery then :lol:? yes prostitution or crypto-prostitution (like "gentlemen clubs") isn&#39;t real slavery, only wage-slavery

[The Grey Blur]

Nobody said they did. But a lot of workers hate their job. What makes this situation any different?
Because there&#39;s a bit of a difference between working in a factory and dancing half-naked. I&#39;ve always seen prostitution, strippers etc as very degrading jobs and really only a last resort for poor people. Still, I&#39;m not saying "I&#39;m right - you&#39;re wrong" - because I don&#39;t know enough about the situation.


Saying that they "sell their bodies" is completely moralistic and frankly bullshit.
:lol: It&#39;s hardly moralistic - whatever way you want to phrase it the job is degrading and yes, I agree with RAAN, it engenders patriarchy.

Really to be honest I couldn&#39;t give a flying fuck about this especially when some of the critiscisms are based on who can use Marxist terminology the best rather than just looking at how pathetic an existence it must be to work as a stripper. Oh and yes I am being paternalistic/moralistic etc etc I know I am an evil Catholic :rolleyes:

[ahab]

More sense then the TaliRAAN will ever make, primitivist prick. Go drop out and burn down some schools or something, because there so oppressive... Try to fighting for workers rights for a change instead of unemploying people. And if you have to beat shit up, make sure you benefit something else besides then a personal ego. If you have prove these "womyn" are harrased, mistreated, blackmailed or abused by the salon owner, kick his ass instead. Now you just might gave those "womyn" a paycutt because of the repair costs.

Primitivist? I am not a primitivist, I have dropped out of high school, but its not so oppressive as to have to burn it down just full of bullshit lies. How do you expect to destroy the system if your just going to work hard to live in it? The best way to hurt a corporation or business is finacially, breaking windows and causing heavy money damages is the best way to hurt its business, and why would the workers have to pay for it? its not their business, the owner is responsible for coming up with the money to cover the damages.


You oppose womens rights by supporting this act. You oppose their right to sell their labour in this way because it offends you. And I&#39;m glad you used the word "terrorized" because thats exactly what this is terrorism, not revolution.

I DO NOT oppose womans rights by supporting this&#33; If they want to run around flashin their titties to everyone, thats their call, they can live anyway they want to I dont give a shit its their fucking life, its just a lot of woman, especially poor, uneducated ones, see being a stripper or hooker as an easy way out. Dont you think it woul be better if they fucked and loved who they wanted instead of just someone throwing them a 5 dollar bill? Woman should be respected more than that, instead of having to be the town fucking bicycle to pay the rent.

Any act that opposes the establishment and supports &#39;revolution&#39; is considered terrorism by the state, fuck, saying &#39;I hate bush&#39; is considered a terrorist act, terrorism, much like freedom, is a word that has had its meaning obscured by the ruling class.

[KC]

Because there&#39;s a bit of a difference between working in a factory and dancing half-naked. I&#39;ve always seen prostitution, strippers etc as very degrading jobs and really only a last resort for poor people. Still, I&#39;m not saying "I&#39;m right - you&#39;re wrong" - because I don&#39;t know enough about the situation.

The only difference is in the form of labour-power being sold. The fact that you see stripping and prostitution as degrading is your opinion and I&#39;m guessing is based on a moralist base. Many women strip and many women have sex for money and they are completely confident about it and in many instances enjoy what they do. The only reason that you think it&#39;s "degrading" is because that is how it&#39;s presented to you.



laugh.gif It&#39;s hardly moralistic - whatever way you want to phrase it the job is degrading and yes, I agree with RAAN, it engenders patriarchy.


Saying it&#39;s degrading is based on moralism.



Really to be honest I couldn&#39;t give a flying fuck about this especially when some of the critiscisms are based on who can use Marxist terminology the best rather than just looking at how pathetic an existence it must be to work as a stripper. Oh and yes I am being paternalistic/moralistic etc etc I know I am an evil Catholic

You&#39;re fucking digusting. Now you&#39;re calling strippers pathetic? That&#39;s just disgusting, you sexist fuck.


The best way to hurt a corporation or business is finacially, breaking windows and causing heavy money damages is the best way to hurt its business, and why would the workers have to pay for it? its not their business, the owner is responsible for coming up with the money to cover the damages.

Hurting a business or corporation isn&#39;t going to do anything. Capitalism is a social relation&#33; And where do you think the owner gets the money to pay for the damages? Out of his ass?


If they want to run around flashin their titties to everyone, thats their call, they can live anyway they want to I dont give a shit its their fucking life, its just a lot of woman, especially poor, uneducated ones, see being a stripper or hooker as an easy way out.

So you&#39;re saying that the problem isn&#39;t stripping, but poverty. So how does this help solve the problem of poverty?

[Whitten]

I DO NOT oppose womans rights by supporting this&#33; If they want to run around flashin their titties to everyone, thats their call, they can live anyway they want to I dont give a shit its their fucking life, its just a lot of woman, especially poor, uneducated ones, see being a stripper or hooker as an easy way out. Dont you think it woul be better if they fucked and loved who they wanted instead of just someone throwing them a 5 dollar bill? Woman should be respected more than that, instead of having to be the town fucking bicycle to pay the rent.

Its their choice, thats the point, and you arnt respecting it. If they want to respect their own bodies then they can, if they want to make more money than they would on a checkout then they can do that too.


Any act that opposes the establishment and supports &#39;revolution&#39; is considered terrorism by the state, fuck, saying &#39;I hate bush&#39; is considered a terrorist act, terrorism, much like freedom, is a word that has had its meaning obscured by the ruling class.

Breathing is considered Terrorism by the US administration, their definition of terrorism doesnt mean anything here. The point is this act doesnt move towards revolution in any way so it cant be revolutionary.

[LSD]

It&#39;s an establishment that promotes commodification of women and encourages misogynist ego.

That&#39;s the same argument used to keep prostitution illegal. Something which only hurts sex workers as it gives the police a free hand to harass and abuse them.

Do you really think that patriarchy comes out of strip clubs and pornography?

It&#39;s rather remarkable then, isn&#39;t it, that some of the most patriarchal people out there are the ones crusading for these places to be shut down.

Don&#39;t get caught up in the moralistic bullshit. You may not like what capitalism does to sexuality, but the choice here isn&#39;t between the "commodifcation" of sex and some type of hippy utopian "free love". It&#39;s between liberal sexuality and repression.

And the less open that sexuality becomes, the more that places like this one are shut down or pushed out, the weaker women become.

There&#39;s a reason that the explosion of "selling sex" coincided directly with the women&#39;s movement. If capitalism&#39;s pushing it, it means that people are discussing it.

The alternative being rolling the clock back 50 years and pushing it all back into the bedroom where men really did have a free hand to do virtualy anything they wanted.

If something&#39;s in demand, capitalism dictates that someone&#39;s going to try and sell it. That isn&#39;t "good", but it&#39;s unavoidable. Trying to "outlaw" or "scare out" business that promote sexually charged materials won&#39;t stop that effect, it will only strike a blow for conservatism in its constant war against the liberalization of sexuality.

Look, there are a lot of problems with the sex industry and strong revolutionany leftist involvement can only help. But that means actually helping the workers involved, not kicking in doors and smashing signs.


I believe they are suggesting that the promotion and display of women as sexual products to be bought and to serve every whim of "gentlemen", instead of as people with their own desires, is part of a culture that dehumanizes women, which makes violence against them easier.

Which, of course, is why violence against women has gone up in the last ten years.

...oh wait.

In fact, if anything, the increased liberalization of sexuality has decreased violence against women. Certainly rape rates have gone radically down. It&#39;s in times of sexual repression that patriarchy is strongest.

That&#39;s why countries like Iran or Saudia Araba, where incidently these kinds of clubs are strictly forbidden, that have the highest rates of domestic assault.

Yeah, capitalism "commodifies" sex, capitalism commodifies everything. But attacking this club doesn&#39;t injure capitalism, it just makes some petty "statement" about the "immorality" of sex.

&#39;Cause, like it or not, that is the message that people will take out of this. No one can say what was in Nachie&#39;s mind when he kicked in that door, but ultimately what he "intended" doesn&#39;t matter.

The reason that so many of us are getting pissed off at this is because it&#39;s exactly the kind of attack that Pat Robertson would be proud to endorse. And because that&#39;s the climate in the United States right now, that&#39;s how people will interpret this.

They won&#39;t see this as a "revolutionary act" against "heteropatriarchy", they&#39;ll see it as an attack against "immoral" sexuality.

And what&#39;s really disturbing is that apparently a whole bunch of people here have no problem with that. That "selling sex" is so unthinkably "demaning" to them that they would support this kind of attack even realizing that it will be read as an endorsement of conservative moralism.

I guess some people are just so desperate for "action" that they&#39;ll take anything. :(


Nachie, I think it was a great, it&#39;s nice to finally hear about people doing something.

"Doing something" would have been actually helping the workers at that club.

Again, sex workers have a lot of problems, as encephalon rightul points out, working in a strip club carries with it a great number of problems. Many of which would be bennefitted by a progressive leftist viewpoint.

But kicking in a door and busting an "offensive" sign didn&#39;t help anyone.

If Nachie&#39;s so interested in fighting for the rights of the women who work at this club, why didn&#39;t he bother to ask what they want? Why didn&#39;t he involve themselves in their struggle?

Or is he so blinded by his own "righteous" moralism that he doesn&#39;t recognize that these women are as much a part of the class war as he is ...if not more so. And that they are fighting a very real struggle against the forces of capitalism.

What they need is unionization, what they need is support, what they need is organization.

What they don&#39;t need is some paternalistic "crusader" kicking in doors in the vague name of "women" while not actually doing a damn thing to help anyone.


Umm...you don&#39;t actually think the women in these places actually enjoy their work (or rather, that if they had a choice they would still be working there) do you?

For the most part? No.

But then that&#39;s true of most workers in most fields. You have to look pretty long and hard to find a worker who goes to work because he actually "enjoys" putting in long hours to enrich his boss.

That doesn&#39;t make stripping "different" from other forms of wage-slavery, in fact it&#39;s just more proof that, in the end, it&#39;s just another job.

Making stripping out to be some sort of "super"-exploitative work only feeds into the liberal notion that capitalism can be "corrected" if only the "really bad parts" were ironed out.

The reality, of course, is that all jobs are exploitative and all workers work because they are compelled too. The exact nature of that work is largely irrelevent.

Look, attack sex work all you want, but recognize that whatever you may think of it, these women are not going to stop "selling their bodies". So if you actually give a damn about them, you&#39;ll support actions that actually improve their lives and not mindless juvenile posturism that only makes their jobs more difficult.

[chimx]

i&#39;m a roofer. if some commie comes to my boss&#39; shop in the dead of night, and fuckin&#39; fire bombs the place and spray paints: "fuck you capitalist" in the parking lot, i would be elated. the only one it is hurting is the boss. for me and my fellow roofers, we go down to the state and tell them that we were laid off for a week and i receive an unemployment check that week. i get paid all the same.

again, none of us were there, so how about YOU all stop criticizing that which don&#39;t know about.

ddxt301:

More sense then the TaliRAAN will ever make, primitivist prick. Go drop out and burn down some schools or something, because there so oppressive...
fuck you. i am smarter than you, have more education than you do, and affiliate myself with raan. you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. stop slandering the raan network.

[LSD]

i&#39;m a roofer. if some commie comes to my boss&#39; shop in the dead of night, and fuckin&#39; fire bombs the place and spray paints: "fuck you capitalist" in the parking lot, i would be elated.

And what if someone just kicked in a door and busted up a window so that your boss made you clean up the mess or cut your pay to "compensate" for the damage?

How "elated" would you be then?

Besides, the point here isn&#39;t that this one act of petty vandalism is going to significantly harm the women who work at the strip club, it&#39;s not. But if leftists start thinking of busting up sex clubs as acceptable "revolutionary" tactics, that could lead to some very real problems.

First of all, again, it&#39;s utterly useless. You may get some satisfaction our of your place of employment going up in flames, but it&#39;s not liable to accomplish much politically.

And if it were accompanied with communist propaganda, it would probably do more to alienate workers than radicalize them.

Secondly, though, and of particular note to this case, Nachie didn&#39;t attack a roofing company; he attacked a strip club, and he did it not &#39;cause he opposes capitalism, but because he opposes the "commodification of sex" and the "message" that clubs such as that one supposedly promulgate.

Well that&#39;s not striking a blow against capitalism, it&#39;s doing the conservatives&#39; job for them. It&#39;s helping the police keep sex workers scared and weak and gives the bourgeois owners of the club one more excuse to underpay and mistreat their workers.

I get that you&#39;d get a kick out of your work getting blowed up, I&#39;d imagine a lot of people would, but in the sober light of day, I think you&#39;d agree that most workers would much prefer to get better pay and better services.

&#39;Cause, sooner or later, you&#39;d have to get another job anyway. That&#39;s the nature of capitalism. So instead of endorsing random acts of violence, why not support real working class solutions like unionization or solidarity campaigns or community self-defence.

Look, there&#39;s going to come a time when we&#39;ll have to directly do battle with the bourgeoisie and their stooges, but even then we&#39;re not going to win by arbitrarily attacking the means of production.

Revolution can only come out of the living class struggle, in this case that refers to the ongoing economic battle between the strippers and their bosses. If Nachie had helped out in that fight, no one would be complaining.

But he didn&#39;t.

[chimx]

Nachie did not, nor ever claim, be it through this message board nor in private emails to me, that he was in any way responsible for this. By continuing to insinuate that he was involved with this anonymous direct action, when you have no reason to suspect this, you are assisting police with any possible investigation. that is fucked up. this is not an action done by Nachie, this is an action by raan-fp, a collective from the modesto area; an area in which there have been MULTIPLE raan affiliated collectives in the past.


And what if someone just kicked in a door and busted up a window so that your boss made you clean up the mess or cut your pay to "compensate" for the damage?

as has been said, the place has insurance. there is no reason for compensation. unless the women at the place know how to install commercial windows, i doubt if they will be involved with that either. this is a non issue.

as far as the moralistic side of the argument, i repeat: you are not familiar with this business. raan-fp has been around for multiple years and are from the modesto area. they are probably better acquainted with the nature of this institution than either you, myself, or nachie. there is nothing inherently evil about sexuality, strip clubs, etc., nor did the communique claim that there was. it is simply your presumption that the group was making a broad generalization.

whether or not the place in question constitutes a place of healthy sexual exploration should be left up to the community of modesto. not some british wankers from half way around the world.



--

nachie and myself both saw this raan related news article on infoshop. he and i both posted it here because we though revlefters may be interested, and we like pimping raan-related news articles. please stop accusing specific raan affiliates with doing illegal shit when you don&#39;t know a god damn thing if they were involved. and even if they were involved, it is fucked up that you would try to make this as public as possible.

or maybe rollo isn&#39;t the only stormfront agent on revleft.

[mole]

this pretty much rocks in my eyes.

[mole]

i just gotta sayone more thing. im a girl and in my view there are so many judgements against us still. despite how strong we are or how far removed we think sexism in our community is . strip clubs and gentlemens clubs to me are a slap in the face. the girls working in the clubs need to know ther is something wrong with whats going on in those places because in those invironments it can easly become more and more acceptable everyday you work there.it becomes routine . to smash the fuck out of that building might actually re awaken some of those girls if only for a day or week. sometimes you need to be jolted back into reality by some drastic action. it just rocks what raan did this is all i can say. it really fuckin rocks&#33;&#33;&#33; ya.

[Morag]

I&#39;ve been thinking about this action for a while, and while I don&#39;t agree with it I do have a question.
I haven&#39;t noticed anything in the communique or in the comments about what the women who worked at the club thought about the action? If the action was, on some level, undertaken on their behalf, someone must have spoken to them about it, so even if others don&#39;t agree with what happened, I for one would like to know what information RAAN-FP gained from their action, what sort of issues the women raised, and whether the women found it acceptable, or helpful.

[chimx]

You would have to ask RAAN-FP about that. RAAN is meant to be a decentralized network, so while I understand why you would want that kind of information, there is no official organizational body to answer those types of questions except for the local collective itself. As a decentralized network, RAAN exists to develop its own tendency within the anti-capitalist movement through local community activity--hopefully in conjunction with other communities if possible--but not to develop its own theoretical line.

RAAN-FP doesn&#39;t have much of an active internet presence, so I can&#39;t really say. If they ever send the RAAN Hub an email, I&#39;ll try to remember to bring it up.

[The Grey Blur]

You&#39;re fucking digusting. Now you&#39;re calling strippers pathetic? That&#39;s just disgusting, you sexist fuck.
:lol: If I was sexist to a woman they would probably kick my ass. I meant that having to strip to earn a living is pathetic not that the actual human beings were pathetic.

Yay flame&#33;

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 02, 2007 08:49 pm

You&#39;re fucking digusting. Now you&#39;re calling strippers pathetic? That&#39;s just disgusting, you sexist fuck.
:lol: If I was sexist to a woman they would probably kick my ass. I meant that having to strip to earn a living is pathetic not that the actual human beings were pathetic.

Yay flame&#33;
How so? Is singing for money pathetic?

[KC]

If I was sexist to a woman they would probably kick my ass. I meant that having to strip to earn a living is pathetic not that the actual human beings were pathetic.

Yay flame&#33;

Hate the sin but not the sinner, right?

<_<

[Xiao Banfa]

No. The fact that women feel they have to strip to earn money.
I think it&#39;s pretty degrading. Nothing to do with "sin".

Most of those women would want a more upscale dancing career, I&#39;m sure.

Haven&#39;t you seen "Carlito&#39;s Way". Al Pacino&#39;s girlfriend wanted to do ballet but she had to strip just to earn money. She wasn&#39;t too pleased and I&#39;m sure she was slightly humiliated.

This has nothing to do with "should stripping, prostitution be legal" this has more to do with the fact that the dual oppression of sexism and class society means that poor women are more likely to do these kinds of jobs.

[LSD]

What&#39;s the point of calling either the person or the occupation "pathetic"? Obviously sex work sucks, all work under capitalism sucks.

But the way to help the proletariat (and yes that includes strippers) is not to call them or their jobs names. ...it&#39;s also not to kick in the doors of random strip clubs.

Look, PR, I think I get what were trying to say, but you&#39;ve got to recgonize that whatever your personal opinions of sex work, from a political perspective there&#39;s nothing "wrong" with becoming a stripper or a prostitute and perpetuating the conservative myth that there is -- even unintentionally -- only serves to hurt the workers themselves.

So how about you reserve your harsher words for the bourgeosie and give these women what they deserve: solidarity.

[Morag]

I agree with what LSD said, except for the fact that, when it comes down to it, prostitution is a bit different then most other jobs. For instance, at least in the Western world, there are no safeguards for their safety on the job, their employment is technically illegal and therefore it can be impossible for them to make complaints against customers/bosses, and that they [when they can&#39;t find work in a massage parlour or a club like the one RAAN-FP vandalised] they might have to work on the streets, which is extremely dangerous, especially if you think of degenerate assholes like Willie Pickton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton), who fed prostitutes to his pigs, and the recent Ipswich murders, or any number of other crimes against prostitutes. A lot of this could be dealt with by legalising prostitution, as they have in the Netherlands, but I believe they are beginning to crack down even there.

What I&#39;m trying to say is that the world isn&#39;t safe for men and women in the sex industry (I&#39;ve just mentioned prostitutes here, but I hope you can see parallels), and I think communists should be encouraging education, welfare and training programs that might allow these workers to work in other industries. I&#39;ve gone to the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Eastside), discussing their rights with prostitutes, giving out condoms and the like, and that&#39;s important, but it doesn&#39;t go far enough, because the vast majority of these people, men and women, had few other skills that they could exploit to make a living. We shouldn&#39;t just say that sex work is like any other type of work, we should actually advocate and agitate for their rights, and for those people who do not want to be in the industry, we should be demanding that they are able to make that choice. Solidarity can mean different things.

[Invader Zim]

fuck you. i am smarter than you, have more education than you do, and affiliate myself with raan. you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. stop slandering the raan network.


Well sweeite, I suspect I am smarter than you, I also suspect I am better educated than you; on that basis do I have the right to slag off your meaningless organisation?

The fact that you claim, on the basis of your supposedly better education that only you and those of your ilk are entitled to hold and voice an opinion is sickeningly elitist.

[chimx]

Well sweetie, perhaps you should use your education and see that the reply I made was in reference to someone, other than yourself, trying to slander RAAN by saying all of its affiliates are anti-school numb skulls that feel dropping out constitutes revolutionary activity. He initiated the elitism, and given the quality of his contributions to this community, I felt relatively confident that I could beat him at his own petty game. k thx bye.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 10:43 pm
Well sweetie, perhaps you should use your education and see that the reply I made was in reference to someone, other than yourself, trying to slander RAAN by saying all of its affiliates are anti-school numb skulls that feel dropping out constitutes revolutionary activity. He initiated the elitism, and given the quality of his contributions to this community, I felt relatively confident that I could beat him at his own petty game. k thx bye.
Indeed, but insidentally he has a point, many RAAN nincompoops certainly do advocate dropping out of school. Which does of course make them complete fools, naive fools to boot. Obviously there are exceptions, but the fact remains.


I made was in reference to someone, other than yourself, trying to slander RAAN by saying all of its affiliates are anti-school numb skulls that feel dropping out constitutes revolutionary activity.

Actually, they said nothing of the sort, it was a reference (an accurate one at that), to the policy of numerous RAAN members. You then responded in a completely outlandish manner to the observation.

My personal hope is that the RAAN members do drop out of school and end up working the worst most unpleasant jobs available on the labour market, simply as poetic justice and warning to future fools who maybe taken in by the same naive ideals.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2006 02:26 am
fuck you. i am smarter than you, have more education than you do, and affiliate myself with raan. you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. stop slandering the raan network.
Uh oh, he&#39;d better not slander "the network". Otherwise, "the network" might becoming to take care of him&#33; :ph34r:

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by WWSD+January 15, 2007 12:08 am--> (WWSD &#064; January 15, 2007 12:08 am)
[email protected] 21, 2006 02:26 am
fuck you. i am smarter than you, have more education than you do, and affiliate myself with raan. you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. stop slandering the raan network.
Uh oh, he&#39;d better not slander "the network". Otherwise, "the network" might becoming to take care of him&#33; :ph34r: [/b]
Please stop trolling/spamming this thread, you trolled for the whole first page (some five or six posts of insults), please do not start again.

You don&#39;t like RAAN, we get it.

[chimx]

Actually, they said nothing of the sort, it was a reference (an accurate one at that), to the policy of numerous RAAN members. You then responded in a completely outlandish manner to the observation.

That is because it was a completely outlandish assertion. Nowhere in the RAAN Principles & Direction does the network advocate dropping out. Dropping out of highschool has never been advocated by RAAN proper, and is neither a principle nor policy.


My personal hope is that the RAAN members do drop out of school and end up working the worst most unpleasant jobs available on the labour market

Well I&#39;m glad you are able to find time in your busy day to articulate your desire to see poor folk exploited by capitalist fucks. That is a very noble path you choose to take.

[ComradeBen]

I once was member of the RAAN, until I looked into them and found they are nothing more than a bunch of neo-nazi scumbags. They call themselves commies and they wear the commie symbols and anarchist symbols when in fact they have nothing in common with communists or even anarchists. Almost every beliefs they have is in line with neo-nazism, they even dress like the neo-nazis at my friend&#39;s school. Never again discrace the words "communism" or anarchist", your actions are a disgrace. You may think you are helping, but your really making it worse for those workers. Help the workers and you are helping the cause. Instead you are taking pay from the workers and most likely they will be forced into doing longer hours as to pay for what you broke. You also probably ruined your chances of being able to do anything else in that area as the cops will prolly jail anyone who is seen wearing your symbol, or any communist/anarchist symbol at that. Thanks, not.

[chimx]

What are you talking about?

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 07:36 pm
I once was member of the RAAN, until I looked into them and found they are nothing more than a bunch of neo-nazi scumbags. They call themselves commies and they wear the commie symbols and anarchist symbols when in fact they have nothing in common with communists or even anarchists. Almost every beliefs they have is in line with neo-nazism, they even dress like the neo-nazis at my friend&#39;s school. Never again discrace the words "communism" or anarchist", your actions are a disgrace. You may think you are helping, but your really making it worse for those workers. Help the workers and you are helping the cause. Instead you are taking pay from the workers and most likely they will be forced into doing longer hours as to pay for what you broke. You also probably ruined your chances of being able to do anything else in that area as the cops will prolly jail anyone who is seen wearing your symbol, or any communist/anarchist symbol at that. Thanks, not.
i once infiltrated the communist league i realized they are all a bunch of jew hating neonazi scumbags i know this for sure

yah lazar is a member of aryan nation

[Invader Zim]

Well I&#39;m glad you are able to find time in your busy day to articulate your desire to see poor folk exploited by capitalist fucks. That is a very noble path you choose to take.

That sweetie, is not what I said, if you are going to quote me, then use that vast intellect and education of yours to quote me properly and in context.

[chimx]

I didn&#39;t quote you sweetie, nor did I claim to. I rewrote what your comments essentially boil down to.

[Invader Zim]

Actually you did, twice.


I rewrote what your comments essentially boil down to

No sweetie; you didn&#39;t.

[chimx]

The comment in question was not a quotation nor did it ever claim to be. You essentially said you hope RAAN affiliates get the worst jobs capitalism has to offer.

Catty.

[piet11111]

these poeple had good intensions with this action because of that i cant blame them for anything but a lack of insight.

now if they would have trashed a cop car and/or beat up some cops that would have been better though more risky.

and to use this action as another slander attempt against RAAN as a whole just shows who is sectarian.

[Nachie]

this is the response of the (female) founder of the Modesto chapter of the Brown Berets when we asked her thoughts on the action:


WOW&#33; We didn&#39;t know about this&#33; WOO-HOO&#33; Right thing to do. That place repulses me. How insulting to women and in the heart of downtown it shoves the patriarchal society in our faces as though SEE, YOU MEAN NOTHING. Disgusting. Kudos to those who defend us&#33;
Thanks for the share and I will tell the others.
Peace and Dignity

[Guest_Kevin Keating]

This "communique" from a "cell&#39; reads like a lame attempt at humor at the expense of supposed radicals by some not-even-funny right-wing humor writer like Tom Wolfe or Christopher Buckley. The level of political awareness on display here is about where my own awareness was at -- when i was about eleven, and still playing with GI Joe&#39;s. It&#39;s difficult to imagine any bona fide grown-ups who have to work for a living getting anything of use out of this kind of shit.

And what do you want to bet that these guys won&#39;t still be around five years from now -- not just as a group, but individually in what passes for radical politics in the US today?

Adolescent-acting-out type anarchists like this are very much like the college student oriented, revolving door ISO type of Trotskyists; they are a kind of antitoxin of the bourgeois democratic order. After the people involved in this kind of stuff get burnt out, they almost never move on to better subversive efforts -- they give up, and decide that since what they were involved in was a waste of time, all other efforts must be equally bullshit as well.

RAAN seem like the kind of people who used to call themselves Maoists. But since Maoism is no longer fashionable, they are today called anarchists. Maybe they are just going through an anarchy-phase because they are pissed off that their parents won&#39;t loan them the car keys. After they break up, they can call themselves the also-ranns

[email protected]