Did Lenin jump the gun?

[American Kid]

It looks to me like the debacle which came to be known as the USSR (under Stalin, specifically of course; Lenin was a visionary genius and Kruschev was a teddy bear) happened because of ansty Vlad wanting to sieze the moment and start his revolution immediately. Regardless of the fact that greater Russia wasn't exactly an industrial super power at the time, one of the prequesites (as far as my own analysis of Marx; I'm open to suggestions) Marx stated was necessary for revolution.

It seems (and do the math, a lot of people starved to fucking death) that he jumped the gun. Maybe if he'd waited, concentrated on creating a sort of groundswell amongst those in his party and the workers who they were bent on "emancipating", maybe even being patient to the degree he came to a resolution it may not happen in his lifetime, then maybe Russia could've progressed a bit, the predicted discrepency between the lower and upper classes would've occured, and Russia, appropriately "equipped", could've survived an out-in-out revolution.

As it happened though, a lot of people went hungry and he ended being succeeded by history's biggest dickhead.

Your input/opinions would be appreciated.

-ak

[CubanFox]

But you've got to understand that all Russians except for the very rich were very pissed off by 1917. There was a famine earlier; entire villages disappearing but the Tsar still exported food. He also went on an imperialistic crusade against the Japanese in 1905. The Russians wanted to do away with Tsarism ASAP. So maybe Lenin did jump the gun, but was justified in doing so.

[Iron Star]

especially justified if you ask me. Russia was already on the collapse by 1917 because of world war I. the bolshevists saw an opputunity for revolution and took advantage of it.

(Edited by Iron Star at 5:11 am on June 22, 2003)

[mentalbunny]

Well I'd agree with AK except there was no chance that as long as the tsar was there that Russia would be "ready", however maybe the situation could have been handled better after that point. I don't know, I wasn't there, but I think it is important to look at it and sort out how we could do it better next time. if you look at China you realise that capitalism has to come before socialism and communism, look at them now, they tried to go from feudalism to communism, skipping out steps 2 and 3, and it didn't work.

[Kez]

bunny is right on the issue of china however...

i think were missing out some major major points, Lenin only started the revolution with the mind that the German workers (who were the most powerful in europe, maybe with Britain) would also become a workers state, and from this stage would help the backward Russia and the other Soviet states. Lenin didnt do it haphazardly, if you look at the history and what lenin actually wrote you can see where he was coming from. This is far far away from what Stalin wanted, when he collaborated with the fascists in Germany and isolated the USSR even further sacrificing the workers of Germany in the process...

[redstar2000]

#Moderation Mode

Clearly more appropriate for the History Forum.

:cool:

Moved here (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=26&topic=422)

[Kez]

fucker, i fuckin hate it when people move fuckin threads, so fuckin annoying.

bout theory of what stage to have a revolution, with what conditions, and what time, not historical, fuckin shitnick

[RedComrade]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 11:29 am on June 22, 2003
Well I'd agree with AK except there was no chance that as long as the tsar was there that Russia would be "ready", however maybe the situation could have been handled better after that point. I don't know, I wasn't there, but I think it is important to look at it and sort out how we could do it better next time. if you look at China you realise that capitalism has to come before socialism and communism, look at them now, they tried to go from feudalism to communism, skipping out steps 2 and 3, and it didn't work.


By the time the bolsheviks came to power the Tsar had been gone for 7 months, the tsar was overthrown in the February revolution and replaced by the pseudo-socialist/social democrat Kerensky regime.

[the SovieT]

for Lenin´s sake, Lenin DID NOT "jump the gun"...

he did not started the revolution all by himself, the masses, did it..

the revolution was started, not because Lenin woke up one day and said "gorgeouse day! lets make a revolution shall we? BOLSHEVIKS ONWARDS!"

no, this did not happened this way..
a certain number of causes and efects made that happen..
and it was up to the Bolsheviks, as the vanguard of the proletariat to make shure the nrevolution wasnt killed by the bourgeois, nobles or any other enemy of the people...

so this is when the NEP enters....
as Lenin said "one step backwards, two steps onwards"..
so he started to capitalize russia, making the called "war communism" in order to reverse the powers and fufill the needs of a not much advanced nation..

the clams that people starved and died are stupid, for they also died and starved before the revolution, during the same things went worse, BECAUSE THERE WAS A FUCKING WAR GOING ON!

a civil war is a civil war, and people die, production stops etc etc...


so in resume, Lenin did mistakes in his choices, yet the time was not the wrong time, for if they did not created a socialist state back then the Bourgeois would have taken command... etc etc etc...

[American Kid]

fucker, i fuckin hate it when people move fuckin threads, so fuckin annoying.

bout theory of what stage to have a revolution, with what conditions, and what time, not historical, fuckin shitnick

Awsome. lol, thank you. Exactly.

-ak

[bolshevik1917]

SovieT is correct, Lenin didnt start the revolution, the masses did. A revolution is not carried out by one or a few men but the entire working class

[kylie]

Revolution had already occured in Russia, and had nothing to do with the Bolshevik party. The october coup was neccessary to remove Kerenskys government from power, who were wanting among other things to continue the war with Germany, something that would have likely resulted in the German occupation of Russia.
Bolshevik 1917 im not sure if you mean the febuary or october revolution, but if you mean the october one, i disagree. Lenin had an extremely important part in organising it, and Trotsky himself accepted that it is unlikely revolution would have occured if Lenin had not returned.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Good post SovieT.

Feoric,

SovieT never stated that Lenin had nothing to do with the revolution. He stated that Lenin did not start the revolution all by himself.

Kamo,
Please expound on this statement;

This is far far away from what Stalin wanted, when he collaborated with the fascists in Germany and isolated the USSR even further sacrificing the workers of Germany in the process...

[bolshevik1917]

The revolution would have happened without Lenin. Whether or not it would have been succesful or not is another story.

RAF Stalin helped fuck the German revolution by advising workers that the time was not right to take power.

[MJM]

I agree with B17 regarding the revolution. There were previous revolutions with little input from Lenin. The people of russia push forward with the revolution even when people said that it couldn't be won. Thats where the "workers are a hundred times more revolutionary than the party" comes from. The workers formed the soviets not the bolshevik party and Lenin.

The Tsar was by no means gone 7 months before the bolshevik revolution. As long as he stayed in Russia he was waiting to take full power back again. We can see today that as long as a despotic ruler lives they never give away their hope of ruling again, and will stop at nothing to gain back power.
Lenin did say that the german revolution was neccessary for the russia to be a success, he was right.

It's important to remember AK that the revolution didn't happen in 1917, but was building for a very long time, the groundswell of support was there. A lot of people were going hungry for a long time prior to 1917.
I think there was a lot more than one dickhead that caused what happened in the USSR.

[Just Joe]

I'm suprised no-one here has pointed out such an obvious reason for Lenin rushing the Russian Revolution. The fact that the man knew he was going to die soon. This isn't 100% but a lot of historians are starting to agree on this. I can't remember the exact year but I think it was in the 1910's when he basically found out he wasn't going to live past the age of about 60. Then when he was shot and his life shortened further, It would explain his sudden turn from militant left wing socialism, to authoritarian tyranny. Obviously he thought the end justified the means and he wanted to see the end, or as close as he could get to it, before he died.

[Kez]

bullshit

[TXsocialist]

I hardly believe that - no proof.

[mentalbunny]

Just Joe, cna yopu back it up, I'm interested to hear more about that.

[Lenin lives]

Let me respond to some of the attacks against Lenin in here.

Then when he was shot and his life shortened further, It would explain his sudden turn from militant left wing socialism, to authoritarian tyranny.
Lenins views never abruptly changed. He did adjust the policies applied by the Bolshevik party 1917-1924, but these, such as the NEP were responses to the situation itself changing.

The fact that the man knew he was going to die soon.
Correct he knew he did not have long to live. It is because of this that he worked so hard, and wrote so much in such a short time, for socialism. He knew his own importance, and tried to contribute as much as he could before his death. Of course he knew that Russia would not achieve socialism in his time, do you really think he would be that naive? This is Lenin we are talking about here, not some foolish generic reactionary writer.

The people of russia push forward with the revolution even when people said that it couldn't be won. Thats where the "workers are a hundred times more revolutionary than the party" comes from. The workers formed the soviets not the bolshevik party and Lenin
The safeguarding of the 1917 revolution occured when Kerensky was removed from power and replaced by Lenin.

Lenin did say that the german revolution was neccessary for the russia to be a success, he was right.
For any revolution to be a success, the whole world must eventually follow suit.

The revolution would have happened without Lenin. Whether or not it would have been succesful or not is another story.
Lenin was constantly having to push the bolshevik party to overthrow the provisional government, as can be seen at the seventh congress of the RSDLP in may.

As it happened though, a lot of people went hungry and he ended being succeeded by history's biggest dickhead.
Dickhead? Can you explain this more please.

[Just Joe]

Program on UK History called 'Lenin: The Secret Files' or something along those lines. I think that explains the theory pretty well but don't hold me to that. I'll do some checking up but I've oftern found that quoting sources no matter how much they prove a point are usually met with either 'Red, Jew, Commie filth' from the hard right; 'Liberal, pinko garbage' from the moderate right'; 'reactionary neo-con rubbish' from the moderate left and 'imperialist, capitalist brainwashing' from the hard left. Then add in the divides between the Stalinist left and Trotskyite left, and you have a lot of denial.

[mentalbunny]

Well that may be the case for some people but not everyone, Just Joe!!!!!!!!!!!!! And LeninLives, what exactly are you trying to say? I'm confused, do you want Lenin to be resposbile or not?

[kylie]

Program on UK History called 'Lenin: The Secret Files' or something along those lines.
I too watched some of that, although not the part where you claim they state Lenin was trying to rush through to socialism. It wouldnt suprise me though, the end credits revealed it was by the BBC.

And LeninLives, what exactly are you trying to say? I'm confused, do you want Lenin to be resposbile or not?
Of course, if it was not for Lenin, there would have been no Bolshevik rule, as i have explained in both my posts in this topic. I'm that user by the way, but my home PC refused to let me log on as feoric, so i had to make another account.

[Just Joe]

Well that may be the case for some people but not everyone, Just Joe!!!!!!!!!!!!!

explain please.

I too watched some of that, although not the part where you claim they state Lenin was trying to rush through to socialism. It wouldnt suprise me though, the end credits revealed it was by the BBC.

And here is why stating sources is a complete waste of time.

[mentalbunny]

Well I for one am happy to avoid sweeping statements when looking at sources, but I have to say that I don't trust the BBC on these matters because they won't wish to look as though they are sympathising with the USSR, which has a particularly evil image, and they want to satisfy the masses. Maybe there are elements of truth but I think they may be guilty of "sexing up" the facts.

[Just Joe]

The BBC generally is considered a fairly good broadcaster by most people. Consider this is an IRISH REPUBLICAN saying this.

Answer the question that no matter what source I gave, would you still believe it?

[mentalbunny]

To tell the truth I know so little about Lenin that I don't know what to believe.

[Red Comrade]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 8:57 pm on June 30, 2003
To tell the truth I know so little about Lenin that I don't know what to believe.

Lenin is a glorious man of the working people!

I cannot even fathom in words the many improvements Lenin brought to Russia, even under pressing circumstances. I mean, it's pretty hard to turn a bunch of superstitious illeterate peasants into leaders. He was the reason Russia pulled out of WWI, because people were simply dying for the monarchy (or Czars, same thing). Only 15% of Russia was literate when Lenin came to power, that quickly turned around. He made women equal to men, which was unheard of in the 1920's. As well as any racial minorities equal, racism was punished with the death penalty (harsh, but needed at such times) Lenin also instated free health care/education/hospitals/etc etc etc... he was truly a great man that deserves the admiration of all Marxists.



(Edited by Red Comrade at 10:21 pm on June 30, 2003)

[Kez]

Quote: from Just Joe on 8:31 pm on June 30, 2003
The BBC generally is considered a fairly good broadcaster by most people. Consider this is an IRISH REPUBLICAN saying this.


Fuck that,
they treated the Firefighters like shit,
they bullshitted about Iraq
They bullshitted about Afganastan
ditto with Yugoslavia

fuckin hell, its unbelieveable ppl from here think BBc is resonable

[American Kid]

forgot about this thread. I've read every page. Informative. Appreciated.

I guess in my opinion history's biggest dickhead is Joe Stalin. He succeeded Lenin, right? Wormed his way to the top and killed a ton of people in the process.

One of my favorite things to do is to go to Barnes and Noble on my break from work and read this book which shows doctored pictures from the Stalin-era. Very, very interesting, spooky, and disturbing.

-ak

[elijahcraig]

Lenin also legalized homosexuality...Stalin later made it illegal.

[tresa909]

metalbunny, interesting concept. where did you get it? forgive me, only i don't buy it, not yet anyway.

i may agree with american kid about russia needing to become a super power only i still think we are way off!

our approach is off, we focus too much on capitalism, and unfortunately many of us are dependent on the empire.

there is a book out there by nikolai ivanovich bukharin "political economy of the leisure class" which gets deep into the orgins of economic relations. the author makes an attempt to reveal the process of transformation of a capitalist to a socialist economy.

he writes that "people did not build capitalism, it built itself" "as for socialism, which is an organized system, we are building it. the main thing for us is to find a balance between all the elements of the system." btw, the author was attempting to write a book trio on this very subject yet due to struggles and circumstances at the time, he never wrote a second volume. - (taken from the book "stalin triumph & tragedy" by dmitri volkogonov pp. 62 copyright 1988) (not sure if this is a legal posting <_< )

american kid, you were right about the people being hungry for food as lenin admitted this to be a problem. lenin requested a few things of the central committee that were not followed after his death

#1 that the central committee was to comprise mostly the working peasants and not professional revolutionaries...didn&#39;t happen, and...

#2 he felt stalin should not hold the position of general secretary because he was in a rush to end foreign trade monopolies and lenin believing that this was too soon and that it deviated from the proletarian internationalism

#3 stalin was not removed from his position as general secretary, stalin, after becoming aware of lenin&#39;s wishes NOT to have him serve as general secretary (because lenin felt stalin was rude) on two occasions gave his resignation and both times stalins resignations were not accepted by the central committee

american kid, i believe the revolution was effected by foreign policy, i am just not certain exactly how at this point

anyway you look at it, the visions of both lenin and stalin would surpass one another from time to time which i find to be phenomenal.

we must now add to the existing ideas and look at perfecting them as if this could be at all possible with men.

vive la revolucion

tt

[mentalbunny]

Good post, tresa. I only suggested the concept, I have no idea what to think, I simply don&#39;t have enough facts about anything&#33;&#33;&#33; Welcome to the board.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 05:04 PM

Quote: from Just Joe on 8:31 pm on June 30, 2003
The BBC generally is considered a fairly good broadcaster by most people. Consider this is an IRISH REPUBLICAN saying this.


Fuck that,
they treated the Firefighters like shit,
they bullshitted about Iraq
They bullshitted about Afganastan
ditto with Yugoslavia

fuckin hell, its unbelieveable ppl from here think BBc is resonable
How did the BBC &#39;bullshit&#39; about Yugoslavia in your opinion?

I agree, however, you are a Trotskyist and I would have thought you would agree with the BBC&#39;s opinion on this subject.

[Xvall]

I&#39;m sorry AK. The way you titled this post: &#39;Did Lenin jump the gun?&#39;. For some reason it put this sort of picture of Lenin like, siezing an artillary cannon or something. I&#39;m sorry, I just had to say that.

[tresa909]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 09:02 PM
Good post, tresa. I only suggested the concept, I have no idea what to think, I simply don&#39;t have enough facts about anything&#33;&#33;&#33; Welcome to the board.
thanks for the welcome metalbunny. erm...i am really not new around here and yeah, i have read some of your post and i say we could be cousins...lol. :D

anyway, its not that easy, you can have all the facts only it is still a matter of putting the pieces together and figuring out what these guys were all about. let nothing be in vain&#33;

vive la revolucion&#33;

vive la esperanza&#33;

tt