Estonian gov to equate hammer&sickle with swastika

[cantona]

http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/16968

Your thoughts?
I understand that 50 years of pseudo-socialism and occupation was tough for "us" but to associate the symbol of hammer and sickle with USSR only?!

Okay, I'm off to make myself a t-shirt with the anarcho-communist symbol RAAN uses.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

But the h and s is a symbol of communism, not only the USSR

[Apatride]

I'm 100% down with the Nazi symbol ban but I don't think you can equate communist icons with swastikas and SS logos. The difference is that there are many different types of communisms, some of which deserve respect, as there is only one fascist doctrine and that is pure hatered.

Where I absolutely disagree is when they state that these symbols will be banned from displays which are prone to incite hatered only, meaning if you're poor and scruffy you could get arrested for having a hammer and sickle t-shirt while if you're rich and have it nicely embroided on your polo cops would probably deem it's a reasonable use.

Where the law decides there is no justice! :AO:

[Marukusu]

Isn't the hammer & sickle already illegal in Hungary?

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 05:59 pm
I'm 100% down with the Nazi symbol ban
So you're 100% behind covering up the problem, rather than confronting it?
You're 100% down with the idea that bourgeoise governments can restrict imagery?
You're 100% with giving a selection of random lines even more importance than they would otherwise have?

[Red October]

i guy in my civics class thought the h&s was the symbol of the nazi party. he also thought communism was a type of white nationalism.

[Marukusu]

Originally posted by Red October 1922
i guy in my civics class thought the h&s was the symbol of the nazi party. he also thought communism was a type of white nationalism.

That guy needs a fist in his face, and then a reading of "The Communist Manifesto" for homework.

[Apatride]

So you're 100% behind covering up the problem, rather than confronting it?
You're 100% down with the idea that bourgeoise governments can restrict imagery?
You're 100% with giving a selection of random lines even more importance than they would otherwise have?

Actually I think the most important part of my statement is that if it's the government that decides what is banned or not that's a major issue. However I think that expressing fascist ideology and displaying nazi symbols falls into the category of hainous propaganda while communists,in my opinion, deserve freedom of speech.

I may be 100% with nazi sybol ban, but I'm 1000% against the government! :AO:

[Guild-soicalist]

Originally posted by Red October [email protected] 11, 2006 08:19 pm
i guy in my civics class thought the h&s was the symbol of the nazi party. he also thought communism was a type of white nationalism.
I know someone who thought the H and S was the German sign for death. And Hitler sent it to the Jews so they know they were going to die. Retard........

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 08:49 pm

So you're 100% behind covering up the problem, rather than confronting it?
You're 100% down with the idea that bourgeoise governments can restrict imagery?
You're 100% with giving a selection of random lines even more importance than they would otherwise have?

Actually I think the most important part of my statement is that if it's the government that decides what is banned or not that's a major issue. However I think that expressing fascist ideology and displaying nazi symbols falls into the category of hainous propaganda while communists,in my opinion, deserve freedom of speech.

I may be 100% with nazi sybol ban, but I'm 1000% against the government! :AO:
How is preventing the use of nazi symbology going to do anything to stop them?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2006 03:05 am
Isn't the hammer & sickle already illegal in Hungary?
hammer & sickle symbol are illegal in my country (Indonesia), but, fuck the government!

[Tatarin]

Absolutely redicolous. People who lived in the USSR are, on the contrary, proud of the old union and only sees the new countries as corrupted capitalist governments.

Why don't they go and ban the dollar symbol instead?

[The Author]

I'm not in the least bit surprised the current Estonian government would do this. The Estonian, Latvian, and Lithuanian Nationalists, along with the Ukrainian Nationalists and the Nationalists of the other former Soviet republics have been working hard to rewrite history (they will tell you they fought both the Nazis and the Soviets, but this is a lie! They were pro-Nazi from start to finish.), to ban any traces of the Soviet past and its accomplishments, to substitute internationalism for nationalist sentiments.

[Vargha Poralli]

Clearly when USSR fell many people in some of former republics welcomed "FREEDOM" and "DEMOCRACY". They stupidly belived that capitalism will bring great prosperity to their stupid "Nations". Now they realise that USSR had greatly benifitted their lives albiet the bureaucracy's own agenda behind it. Now they have realised that "FREEDOM" and "DEMOCRACY" is not doing shit to improve their lives and the capitalist scumbags don't care about them as the USSR is no more

In contrary their rulers have benefited greatly by the disintegration of USSR to keep their power they are doing every possible shit to cover their failure like building monuments to Nazi and SS scums now banning H&S etc.

[Apatride]

How is preventing the use of nazi symbology going to do anything to stop them?

Making a statement as a collectivity that we will not tolerate hatered on display may not prevent individuals from following that ideology, but legitimating the use of these symbols in the name of free speech only boasts the fascist's ego.

Altough I have to say if every nazi on the block walked around with a swastika armband it would make them that much easier to single out... :rolleyes:

[Felicia]

the swastika was a symbol used before the nazi's destroyed it's image to the world, it was a symbol of harmony and not native to germany or the german workers party. The hammer and sickle however I believe were developed alongside the development of the USSR, and being inherently a representative of the farm and industrial workers of Russia.

We used to have a board member at che-lives from Estonia back in 2002...her name was Maaja (holy fuck, my memory's good :D ) too bad she wasn't still around to shed light on how estonians feel about this..


edit: check this out :blink:


Eventually, Soviet socialists switched from the swastika to the hammer and sickle. The hammer and sickle resembles the earlier Soviet swastika flipped horizontally. The USSR's hammer and sickle might have been intended as a visual reminder of the Russian version of its own earlier swastika.

http://rexcurry.net/ussr-socialist-swastika-cccp-sssr.html

[FriedFrog]

Look at it from a centrist point of view:

Swastika = Far Right = Oppression, Authoritarianism, Silencing of opponents

H&S = Far Left = USSR (Oppression, Authoritarianism, Silencing of opponents)


The left could do with an image change anyway.

[Ol' Dirty]

Banning any political icon is an affront to free speech. If people can't wear the swaztika or hammer and sickle (which are not even similar, in ideology or depiction, mind you), then they should ban all the flags of every nation. I have a big problem with a state of any sort (Socialist, Capitalist or otherwise) banning any type of expression. To be quite frank, I'm not quite pleased with the state system at all.

[cantona]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2006 08:09 pm
We used to have a board member at che-lives from Estonia back in 2002...her name was Maaja (holy fuck, my memory's good :D ) too bad she wasn't still around to shed light on how estonians feel about this..

I think I know her, not sure though...

Anyway, I agree with Jazzratt and Muigwithania. Banning symbols won't solve anything, if anything, it makes the situation even worse. As I'm sure the neo-nazi´s and local soviet-minded authoritarian communists will use the symbols more now, just to protest.


People who lived in the USSR are, on the contrary, proud of the old union and only sees the new countries as corrupted capitalist governments.

Actually, that's not true. Most of the Russians are, but not the people from countries that actually suffered from the Soviet Union. Sadly USSR messed up people's vision of communism in Estonia and now EVERYTHING leftist is reluctant to people.

[WUOrevolt]

I wouldnt equate the soviets with communism, so i wouldnt equate the hammer and sickle with communism. But it shouldnt be banned.

[Rollo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 06:33 am
Look at it from a centrist point of view:

Swastika = Far Right = Oppression, Authoritarianism, Silencing of opponents

H&S = Far Left = USSR (Oppression, Authoritarianism, Silencing of opponents)


The left could do with an image change anyway.
I disagree. The hammer and sickle is fine. If not the gear and machete is just as fine, just because they once represented stalinist russia doesn't mean they always will.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by andres!+December 12, 2006 06:45 pm--> (andres! @ December 12, 2006 06:45 pm)
[email protected] 12, 2006 08:09 pm
We used to have a board member at che-lives from Estonia back in 2002...her name was Maaja (holy fuck, my memory's good :D ) too bad she wasn't still around to shed light on how estonians feel about this..

I think I know her, not sure though...

Anyway, I agree with Jazzratt and Muigwithania. Banning symbols won't solve anything, if anything, it makes the situation even worse. As I'm sure the neo-nazi´s and local soviet-minded authoritarian communists will use the symbols more now, just to protest.


People who lived in the USSR are, on the contrary, proud of the old union and only sees the new countries as corrupted capitalist governments.

Actually, that's not true. Most of the Russians are, but not the people from countries that actually suffered from the Soviet Union. Sadly USSR messed up people's vision of communism in Estonia and now EVERYTHING leftist is reluctant to people. [/b]
Maaja's profile (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showuser=2356)

from what I can remember, she was very (very!) blonde, very pretty, and she had a small walk on part in a film as an extra, she played the "the girl with the red coat" (or cape, something like that). Sound familiar? I'm sure I have more details.... She used to talk to a guy in australia a lot, by the name Alexander (?) Natalenko. (ok, I don't collent information on leftists for the government! I swear...). Natalenko (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showuser=1968). Funny, these two disapeared from che-lives around the same time :P

ok, that's some of the info I have on these two, the rest I'm gonna keep to myself for now :ph34r:

[boxinghefner]

there is only one fascist doctrine and that is pure hatered.

you could in fact say there are many 'fascisms'; Though most revolve around some form of opportunistic ultra-nationalism not particularly favourable to the working class.

[Rollo]

Originally posted by Felicia+December 13, 2006 07:51 pm--> (Felicia @ December 13, 2006 07:51 pm)
Originally posted by andres!@December 12, 2006 06:45 pm

[email protected] 12, 2006 08:09 pm
We used to have a board member at che-lives from Estonia back in 2002...her name was Maaja (holy fuck, my memory's good :D ) too bad she wasn't still around to shed light on how estonians feel about this..

I think I know her, not sure though...

Anyway, I agree with Jazzratt and Muigwithania. Banning symbols won't solve anything, if anything, it makes the situation even worse. As I'm sure the neo-nazi´s and local soviet-minded authoritarian communists will use the symbols more now, just to protest.


People who lived in the USSR are, on the contrary, proud of the old union and only sees the new countries as corrupted capitalist governments.

Actually, that's not true. Most of the Russians are, but not the people from countries that actually suffered from the Soviet Union. Sadly USSR messed up people's vision of communism in Estonia and now EVERYTHING leftist is reluctant to people.
Maaja's profile (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showuser=2356)

from what I can remember, she was very (very!) blonde, very pretty, and she had a small walk on part in a film as an extra, she played the "the girl with the red coat" (or cape, something like that). Sound familiar? I'm sure I have more details.... She used to talk to a guy in australia a lot, by the name Alexander (?) Natalenko. (ok, I don't collent information on leftists for the government! I swear...). Natalenko (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showuser=1968). Funny, these two disapeared from che-lives around the same time :P

ok, that's some of the info I have on these two, the rest I'm gonna keep to myself for now :ph34r: [/b]
You mean she was the blonde girl in the matrix who charms neo when morpheus is talking to him about reality?

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by andres!+December 12, 2006 09:45 pm--> (andres! @ December 12, 2006 09:45 pm)
[email protected] 12, 2006 08:09 pm
We used to have a board member at che-lives from Estonia back in 2002...her name was Maaja (holy fuck, my memory's good :D ) too bad she wasn't still around to shed light on how estonians feel about this..

I think I know her, not sure though...

Anyway, I agree with Jazzratt and Muigwithania. Banning symbols won't solve anything, if anything, it makes the situation even worse. As I'm sure the neo-nazi´s and local soviet-minded authoritarian communists will use the symbols more now, just to protest.


People who lived in the USSR are, on the contrary, proud of the old union and only sees the new countries as corrupted capitalist governments.

Actually, that's not true. Most of the Russians are, but not the people from countries that actually suffered from the Soviet Union. Sadly USSR messed up people's vision of communism in Estonia and now EVERYTHING leftist is reluctant to people. [/b]
Just look at Poland. But I think they had forgiven the Soviet Union if it actually had delivered prosperity in a generation.

[Guerrilla22]

Estonia is becoming more and more reactionary every day.

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 11:19 pm
Estonia is becoming more and more reactionary every day.
Sadly, Latvia's even worse.

[Janus]

Hmm...it's interesting that Estonia waited until now to do this. However, it seems that they may have only done this once the proposal for an entire EU ban on communist symbols had been rejected.

[Angry Young Man]

I suppose where there coming from is that the USSR is what means communism by Estonians: an authoritarian state. The problem is that the new Bourgeois govt is itself infringing on the "liberty" that they promised by disallowing badges with political symbols. I obviously think that one should be allowed to wear a H&S, but also, as I perceive fascism as little threat anyway, it can do no harm by wearing a swastika.
The reason fascism is weak is because if every country was fascistic, there would be constant warfare as each would believe that their country's dominant race was superior; however if one country was fascistic, all others would fight it and, with the non-fascists being the vast majority, would win. So is fascism a threat; or is it just a silly illogical political ideology for ill-educated adolescents?

[kingbee]

2 things:

1) I'm hardly surprised as Estonia has had hundreds of thousands of Russian immigrants due to Soviet policy. If I remember correctly, about 40% of those who live there are Russian; and this has led to anti-Russian legistlature such as the denial of citizenship of those who cannot speak Estonian (Estonian is apparently an extremely hard language to learn, especially for Russian speakers). The banning of the Hammer and Sickle seems a 'natural' progression, although naturally I don't support it.

2) I've always found this quite a difficult topic anyhow: why is the swastika banned, but not the Hammer and Sickle? Both political ideologies have been responsible for the deaths of millions of people, never mind if 'it was good for the people' or however people justify Soviet, Eastern Bloc, etc killing or oppressing citizens.

But what are the arguments for banning the swastika but not the hammer and sickle from an objective viewpoint? I'm genuinely interested.