Reason for our existence?

[Concept]

a couple buddies and I were having a convo tonight about human life

one of my buddies used to be an evolutionist but he's now starting to believe in religion

my other buddy believes god or some higher being has given us certain things over time to let us experiment with (he used the example of metal how it was "discovered")
i told him that over time as the population moves from hunter/gatherer to agricultural that more ppl r freed up to be "specialists" as less ppl r needed to feed the populace which means ppl have more free time to discover things...also that ppl perceive things differently (so what he may understand another may not)
also the fact that if ur in a certain environment ur gonna experiment with plants and such to see how they can help u survive (native tribes have an extensive knowledge of all their local flora)
his argument just seemed severely flawed to me cuz he put down individualism by saying ppl would always stick to the rules (pointed out modern society as proof against that)

i threw out the idea that maybe we're just some alien races experiment
they set the wheels in motion for life to evolve and r just watching how we turn out

personally i think there is life out there due to the fact that life lives everywhere on earth from hottest to coldest places so y can't other life forms exist in space

what do u all think about this??


i tried converting them to the left by saying don't u wanna know the truth??
the right gov'ts have hid alot of knowledge from us which i think should be free for the ppl to know about (ex Area 51, supposed resting place of a UFO but do we really know the truth?)
u gotta fight the powers that be and find out what is real and fake

sometimes a conspiracy theory is put out there by the ppl who r trying to cover it up, they make it so absurb nobody will believe it....think about it...

[BurnTheOliveTree]

I'd steer well clear of "vast right wing conspiracy" ideas... I mean, for starters, you must admit they're a bit dubious. But more importantly, it implies that it's possible to have a right wing government that's good, i.e. one that doesn't hide information from it's populace.

-Alex

[Dimentio]

Meanings are just simplifications, and imply some sort of christian-influenced mindset about some sort of heavenly kingdom at the end, whether or not it is actually christianity we are talking about, or a political ideology.

I look forward to the point after we have established the technate. Then, transhumanism would be the next issue, thereafter space colonisation, and thereafter godhood.

[Concept]

I'd steer well clear of "vast right wing conspiracy" ideas... I mean, for starters, you must admit they're a bit dubious. But more importantly, it implies that it's possible to have a right wing government that's good, i.e. one that doesn't hide information from it's populace.

thats exactly what they are going for...something so unbelievable that nobody will believe it....its just like electricity (maybe not best example) but do u think ppl took Ben Franklin serious tho about it b4 he had actual proof

just curious how does it imply that its possible for a good right wing gov't??
i think conspiracy theories are purely a product of right-wing, the select few determine whats best for the masses to know about



Meanings are just simplifications, and imply some sort of christian-influenced mindset about some sort of heavenly kingdom at the end, whether or not it is actually christianity we are talking about, or a political ideology.

i'm far from having a christian-influenced mindset...i just like to ponder sometimes about the possibilities of things
is anything we know really the truth???

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

For a long time I believed there might be life on other planets. I now know that an evolutionary perspective says this is highly improbable.

[amanondeathrow]

For a long time I believed there might be life on other planets. I now know that an evolutionary perspective says this is highly improbable.

Why?

[JazzRemington]

There is probably other life somewhere in outerspace, but it is not likely that we will come into contact with it at least within our life time. But even then, there is an equal chance that there wouldn't be life because of the fact that the human race was one out of thousands of potential life forms that managed to evolve into a conscious animal.

[encephalon]

For a long time I believed there might be life on other planets. I now know that an evolutionary perspective says this is highly improbable.

Umm.. you have that backwards. All evidence points to the fact that life wants to exist, and if the conditions exist to make it possible then evolution will take its course. It might not be intelligent life, but it's life nonetheless.

Even if you look at it on a mathematical basis alone, life beyond our own planet isn't just probable; it almost a sure thing.

[Marukusu]

All life on earth exists only because it can exist.
I believe that the first living organisms on earth where "created" by pure chance. I also think that it is a large chance that life exists on other planets in our vast universe, but I think it's hightly unlikely that these life forms are any humanoid at all (like the "litte grey men" or "ET" from various Hollywood productions).

If scientific proof would be discovered that these theories are wrong, then shame on me. I don't care, because I don't see how such discoveries would change our current way of living and way of government. Capitalism, nationalism, imperialistic wars, exploitation of underdeveloped countries and the poor etc will still be the rule of the day even if scientists find proof that we actually are spawned from alien spaceship garbage.

What matters right now is the revolution.

[Lamanov]

Isn't it possible that life is simply a result of nature and its development, and that it doesn't have a purpose? That it's not an "experiment", "means" or anything like that, but that it simply "is"?

[Marukusu]

Originally posted by DJ-TC
Isn't it possible that life is simply a result of nature and its development, and that it doesn't have a purpose? That it's not an "experiment", "means" or anything like that, but that it simply "is"?

That's what I meant with "All life on earth exists only because it can exist".
Of course nothing has any purpose at all. Everything just "is".

[Concept]

Marukusu...i agree any discovery of other life probably wouldn't help our situation but its just a theory about life not revolutionary actions
u gotta free ur mind from the struggle once and awhile...i'm sure even Che let his mind wander about other matters at times

what little we do know about space is only our solar system
with the potential of other suns and solar systems being out there there r so many possibilities
majority of planets prob have very basic life with little intelligence but look at earth...life with all levels of intelligence...who knows how life could've evolved on other planets

we could also be one of the younger planets around and there are life forums with far superior intelligence to ours
who knows what the future holds

that is one reason y i want to know the truth about Area 51...if a UFO did crash there what have they learnt about it and its driver
they say after Roswell there was a huge explosion of technology starting with the transisitor or capacitor from reverse-engineering

[Pow R. Toc H.]

Concept,

Conspircacy Theories are fucking bullshit. It is irrelevant whether the government kept anything a secret. If you knew the "truth" would it make your life any better or more interesting or would just say ohhhh?

[Concept]

interesting yes :)
knowing that there is life for sure out there would be amazing and u can't discredit that
it might make life better, it may not...i think in the end it doesn't really matter
just knowing that u have access to the knowledge is whats important...it shouldn't be restricted

i myself am just on a quest for knowledge...i don't think the gov't should hide knowledge from its ppl
look at all these organizations that r supposedly protecting the ppl...they r hiding a wealth of knowledge and doing more harm then good

“The advancement and diffusion of knowledge is the only guardian of true liberty.”
James Madison

[Pow R. Toc H.]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 05:07 pm
i myself am just on a quest for knowledge...i don't think the gov't should hide knowledge from its ppl
look at all these organizations that r supposedly protecting the ppl...they r hiding a wealth of knowledge and doing more harm then good

How many organizations do you know for a fact that hide information from people? It sounds less like your on a quest for a knowledge and more like your on a quest to prove that the government conspires against its people. I bet you also wonder who really shot JFK, right? Who was really responsible for the 9-11 terror attacks? Was it the CIA? Where is the rest of the plane that crashed into the pentagon?
Listen:
CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE FUCKING BULLSHIT!

[Concept]

so u can honestly say that u know as much as the gov't does then??
knowledge is meant to be taught so others may learn not hoarded

maybe conspiracy theories r bullshit but until u can prove that their isn't a UFO in Area 51 u know as much as the rest of us and thats JACKSHIT!!!!
it all comes down to ur beliefs tho mainly...i believe in alien life of some sort and u probably don't correct??
the point is...we r trying to overthrow the right cuz they lie...do we really know y they r in Iraq? NO
so y can't it be plausible they have lied about much more

“... knowledge is hidden by selfish desire — hidden by this unquenchable fire for self-satisfaction.”
Bhagavad-Gita

i'm still learning bout all the leftist forms of gov't but they r run by the ppl and not a central gov't right??
so in the case that the right is overthrown, the ppl will need to know the truth about all matters so they know how to handle them right???


i know we r trying to overthrow the right for much more then lying (corruption, exploitation, capitalism, human rights abuses etc etc) just trying to stress the point they r liars :)

[Pow R. Toc H.]

Why is it even relevant whether there is a ufo in area 51? So we can learn the truth and set up intergalactic trade? Ive also herd that there is a mermaid there and bigfoot too. Is it relevant however, to know if these creatures exist? Does it have anything to do with a revolution or marxism or anything even slightly relevant to what leftists are trying to do? The government lies to us all the time but massive government cover ups are highly highly highly unlikely when you look the fact that confidential information is constantly leaked to the press. NOBODY can keep a fucking secret.

Oh and by the way we are in Iraq because we need oil and because are president is a a douche bag.

Just why are you so sure that the government covered anything up?

[Concept]

Orc this is the philosophy thread...everything that is discussed doesn't have to pertain to the revolution
take a break once in awhile and let ur mind wander dood :)

just because some confidential info is leaked doesn't mean it all is

is it relevant to the revolution that some ppl go out into the rainforest to find new species of insects and animals?? NO
its not really important if its relevant or irrelevant...its the discovery

and also think about if there was a UFO...by letting other ppl at it they could discover something that past and current scientists havent thought of...give others a chance to help humanity
its all freedom of information

i just like to challenge conventional thought, question everything...thats y i think the gov't is hiding things
y believe everything that is told to u
isn't that y ppl don't believe y the Bush admin is in Iraq?

[Pow R. Toc H.]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2006 01:51 am
just because some confidential info is leaked doesn't mean it all is


and also think about if there was a UFO...by letting other ppl at it they could discover something that past and current scientists havent thought of...give others a chance to help humanity
its all freedom of information

i just like to challenge conventional thought, question everything...thats y i think the gov't is hiding things
y believe everything that is told to u
isn't that y ppl don't believe y the Bush admin is in Iraq?
The Point I was trying to make was that if there was a cover its unlikely that everyone involved would keep it covered up.

I dont really understand the point you were making about letting other study the spaceship could you be a little more clear?

We know why the Bush administration is in Iraq whether they admit it or not. They are there for oil and because the president is a douche.

[apathy maybe]

There is no meaning to life. We exist by an accident of chemistry. Aliens (if they exist) exist for the same reason. God (as traditionally meant by the term) does not exist (logically). It is probable that any such creator also does not exist.


The distances involved to travel between stars means that it is unlikely for aliens to have visited Earth or for them to be visiting Earth.


Please, you are simple chemicals, animated by chemical reactions and quantum events.

[Pow R. Toc H.]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 12, 2006 02:19 am
There is no meaning to life. We exist by an accident of chemistry. Aliens (if they exist) exist for the same reason. God (as traditionally meant by the term) does not exist (logically). It is probable that any such creator also does not exist.


The distances involved to travel between stars means that it is unlikely for aliens to have visited Earth or for them to be visiting Earth.


Please, you are simple chemicals, animated by chemical reactions and quantum events.
I fully agree.

[Concept]

i love just taking a topic not much is known about and going off on different possible tangents
all of this could come true one day or be just one random thought of a madman


The Point I was trying to make was that if there was a cover its unlikely that everyone involved would keep it covered up.

I dont really understand the point you were making about letting other study the spaceship could you be a little more clear?

We know why the Bush administration is in Iraq whether they admit it or not. They are there for oil and because the president is a douche.

unlikely yes, unless they stand to profit immensely by doing so...greedy ppl aren't rare in our time and age

as for letting others study the spaceship, u ever notice how some ppl just have more intuition then the rest of us
they have robotic arms for amputees that work off the brain...just an example, spaceship would be more complex but same idea...u'll just learn somehow
just a thought :)

yes we all know y they r in Iraq...but that is not what they've told the world...according to them they r fighting a war on terror
point is they have alterior motives here and i bet many other times in the past too
just another reason to overthrow the bastards



There is no meaning to life. We exist by an accident of chemistry. Aliens (if they exist) exist for the same reason. God (as traditionally meant by the term) does not exist (logically). It is probable that any such creator also does not exist.

The distances involved to travel between stars means that it is unlikely for aliens to have visited Earth or for them to be visiting Earth.

Please, you are simple chemicals, animated by chemical reactions and quantum events.

ok i agree....we're like that kid that just wasn't supposed to happen...the accident
but what if we are young in terms of the universe...our solar system is one of many in just the Milky Way Galaxy...there is still the Andromeda Galaxy, Sombrero Galaxy (all i can remember)
if we r young there could be beings way more advanced then us, capable of who knows what (warp drive a la Star Trek maybe)
i agree we r also chemicals but doesn't the possibility of other life intrigue u just the slightest

check these sites out if interested: hxxp://zebu.uoregon.edu/planets/planets.html
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/galaxies.php

[RebelDog]

Due to the huge number of galaxies in the universe (estimated 100 billion in the observable universe alone) and the billions of stars for each galaxy there is surely a certainty that there are planets orbiting some of these stars have life on them right now. If this is not the case then it would mean there was something supernatural about life existing on earth and that is clearly unacceptable. If advanced alien life exists on other planets is speculative but one would imagine that planets that have been in the longest phases of having the capability of supporting life (friendliest conditions) will have the most advanced lifeforms and possibly intelligent life. Any reasons why we have not found any life on other planets are pointless to ask at this early stage in the process of looking for it. The question as to why any advanced alien life has not contacted us is also bit premature as we have hardly been listening long and we don't even know if we have the proper technology to pick up any extra-terrestrial alien broadcasts. Some people argue that a highly intelligent alien species would not wish to contact what they might regard as a less advanced species and 'interfere' with its development. I'm not so sure about that given our own enthusiasm to contact or recieve contact from other lifeforms. It is more likely, in my view, that we ourselves remain undetected by extra-terrestrials due to the vastness of space and our primative technological cpabilities.

[Pow R. Toc H.]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 12, 2006 05:13 pm
If this is not the case then it would mean there was something supernatural about life existing on earth and that is clearly unacceptable.
Why couldnt it be that our entire existence is just relative to some random unpredictable or known event? Why couldnt we all just be an accident? Why does it have to be either "God" or alien life? Any number of events could of led to our existence it could all just be extremely circumstantial.

[Concept]

agree with ya 100% Dissenter
its awesome just pondering the possibilities tho eh :)

i'm prob picking up a telescope very soon....my ex had one but haven't looked thru one since...kinda miss it
anybody else have one?

[RebelDog]

Why couldnt it be that our entire existence is just relative to some random unpredictable or known event? Why couldnt we all just be an accident?

What I was saying is that what can happen here, must be able to happen elsewhere in the universe, on other planets with friendly conditions for life. The odds against are huge but the time is long and the opportunities massive. Like winning the lottery, if you do it every week over millions of years, you should eventually win.


Why does it have to be either "God" or alien life?

The former is unacceptable, as I said. The latter is even more unlikely than life sprouting on earth itself. Ockham's razor points us to life being established here on earth in the friendly conditions it supplies.


Any number of events could of led to our existence it could all just be extremely circumstantial.

I agree.

[Pow R. Toc H.]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 02:41 pm
i'm prob picking up a telescope very soon....my ex had one but haven't looked thru one since...kinda miss it
anybody else have one?
No, I live in Vegas and with the all the light that comes from the casinos and street lights and billboards it would be nearly impossible to see anything remotely interesting.

[Epoche]

A "reason" cannot be concluded because this would require a "first cause" of the first effect, which would be the thing in question; we are asking for the reason X is.

But in order to do that, we would have to imagine a thing which did not follow the rules of causality...a thing that could not be an "effect" as well. This would only work in a finitity, but the finite is absurd; one cannot imagine an "other side of the wall" in outerspace, nor a case where "1" could not be added to a quantity or number.

Prima causa only works for something finite and would imply a transcendent "thing" to the thing created, since "it" would have to be subject to the same conditions of the thing which is created, but could not if it was the first cause.

It would need to be "there," it would need to be "then" and it would need to be "that" or else it is inconceivable. Everything needs a reason, or, there is no such thing as "reason."

[Epoche]

And part of the "sickness" in man is the belief that he is for a reason, since to believe oneself to be for a reason is to imply a purpose, which, in turn, implies the possibility for "error," "accident," and "mistake."

This creates angst, anxiety. Observe the religious. Now what happens when there are many conflicting religions? You guessed it....mass anxiety and conflict between competing "purposes." The other is the danger and the error, and therefore conflicting.

To acknowledge the contingency, the lack of reason and "essence" of the human species is the first step toward an authentic freedom from that alienating "pressure" of the religious beliefs. Feuerbach describes this phenomena in excellent detail, while Kierkegaard and Sartre investigate the same through psychoanalysis of the conditions for consciousness, the existential forms of despair inherent in being conscious and having experience-- "man is a desire to be God" and a "useless passion" - Sartre, etc., etc.

Clearly all this is an anthropological "disease," a kind of exhalting a proto-type human kind in a "God" figure. God could be a grasshopper for all we know.

[red_orchestra]

We exist to survive... to build networks and live as a socialized creature. Thats what we are - animals with a technological edge. Simply put... even more a reason to have a strong system of community. Socialism creates the framework for a balanced society.

[hoopla]

Why did epoche get banned?

I dunno about his/her loose style of argument: if you enter epoche's world of rationality pretty much everything is true. But...

:blink:

[SecurityManKillJoy]

It doesn't matter whether there was a reason for existence, for that assumes ideas are congealed in material reality, or something similar, and if that were true they have to be made use of or else they would be meaningless. Ideas only mean something when actively used and a meaning applied to them by the subject that knows it and is using it. However, subjects, or users of materials and of their own immediately-accessible bodies and memories (or equivalent of that) and which are aware of objective things and have an objectively knowable existence of their own will always exist.

If all objective conditions for subjects were wiped out, they would be back in a relative instant, no matter how many years later it took for new objective conditions for subjectivity to occur, because the subjects wouldn't have been in existence all that time to experience time. Whatever the subjects have to make use of doesn't matter; they're all the same, anyway, and they don't have to be described in terms of mechanical materialist reductionism (everything is nothing but chemicals or 'mind' as nothing but particles bouncing around), determinism, free-will-ism, accidentalism, or anything of the sort, just in terms of their having awareness in some sense and perhaps being able to use things, and they can create their own ideas on existence if they have subjectivity to make use of like that and invent new ideas with. If subjectivity had the risk of being wipped out in some way, though, I'd hope that subjects would try and prevent it in some way, because subjectivity would only appear again as I said, except all the past accomplishments will have been wiped out too.

[gilhyle]

Conspiracy theories are surely mostly wrong - there would be so much money to be made from revealing who killed Kennedy and Area 51 that someone on a miserly government pension would go for it if he/she had something to sell

Of course life has a meaning - the meaning of life is reproduction....simple, boring, comforting, irritating.


Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2006 06:44 pm
.... transhumanism would be the next issue, thereafter space colonisation......

I think if there was 'intelligent' life on other planets it it would radically transform the whole question of revolutionary politics, it would fundamentally alter what was possible both because of the potential for cross-species alliances and because of the alternative possibilities for social relations it would reveal.

But I dont expect the news any day soon.

[MissLeftistRevolutionary]

I believe that once we know what kind of other life forms (aliens/etc) are in the universe we will have some kind of idea how it all began. But the universe had to be created by some kind of higher power, or there would not be other planets, other galaxies, other solar systems (which there are) so we would have to believe that there is some kind of god/higher power/whatever in order for this to be. (at least i believe) that there is no other way. then after that, evolution could then occur under the system of life already created.

i believe that this superpower, intended for us all to have some kind of purpose. so yes, there is a reason for us all being alive :P

[benjaminbarker]

Isn't it kind of pointless asking from where we came? Any informed individual could give you a good estimate, and that is the one I'm seeing often, that we evolved on our own from simple organic compounds. Panspermia (the idea that life on earth came from another planet) is also plausible; alien bacteria could conceivably survive aboard a meteor and the ensuing impact with earth and then evolve to form terran life as we know it.

[MissLeftistRevolutionary]

I'm just interested in it. Not that you have to question anything, I just find the entire thing rather interesting and enjoy studying and discussing it.

[gilhyle]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 07:26 pm
I believe that once we know what kind of other life forms (aliens/etc) are in the universe we will have some kind of idea how it all began. But the universe had to be created by some kind of higher power, or there would not be other planets, other galaxies, other solar systems (which there are)
This doesnt follow...of course there can be other planets without there being a God the argument from design (which is what this is) is a weak argument. At its best it goes:

- look at how complicated nature is;
- I dont know how it got that complicated;
- I know: I'll define a 'superpower' capable of creating complexity by methods beyond my understanding

In that way, I reformulate my ignorance to conform (vaguely) to the linguistic structure common in explanations, while not denting my complete ignorance at all.

The postulation of mysterious entities that do mysterious things does not subtract anything from the ingorance that preceded it, but adds an additional obstacle to the reduction of that ignorance.

[SecurityManKillJoy]

Even if a God existed, God would still have awareness, and be able to use things. God would simply have more directly-accessible awareness and power as opposed to humans. Humans can create meanings for different things just as well as God can, if we look past the differences, so we shouldn't find meaning in something just because a higher force created it, when we are really exactly the same as that force in every way except the superficial ways.

Anyway, I wouldn't even say nature is complicated. I don't think it's worth it to call anything simple or complicated, really. Any being (awareness, user of things) can have awareness (empirical memories and sensations) of nature, regardless if ideas or the equivalent of which are ever individually invented off this awareness. So I say all beings are the same, regardless if they can comprehend physics or some other idea that makes nature out to be 'complicated' just because nature can be translated into tons of intricate mathematical expressions, etc.

Otherwise if it was all so complicated, no being would even have awareness of nature whatever except for the 'really intelligent' ones, and that sounds more mysteriously esoteric than anything.

[Z[ ] Sputnik]

There is no reason for our existance.

It seems to me, without a creator of sorts, that existance was sporadically created and not planned, therfore without a designated "reason" or "purpouse." Life is without a mission statement.

You create your own reasons to exist.

[gilhyle]

I still say the purpose of life is reproduction - by definition - but it is quite correct that that purpose is of so little necessary significance to you (in this society) that it has become open to you - or at least it appears open to you, in imperialist society - to create your own meaning.