aids

[ahab]

ok I have been hearing a lot lately, that the government (being US) created aids. The first aids outbreak was in NY, and it was targeting black and gay people. I hear it just went out of control and affected more than the government thought it would. Does anybody kno anything about this subject? I am REALLY interested in hearing if it is a conspiracy, the way my friend explained it to me sounded quite convincing, but I thought I would consult the people on here as well. So tell me what you kno/think!

[Delta]

I've never heard of any evidence that would support that. Sounds ridiculous to me.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2006 10:13 pm
ok I have been hearing a lot lately, that the government (being US) created aids. The first aids outbreak was in NY, and it was targeting black and gay people.
That's a new one to me - the claim that it started in NY. No, Africa.

As for the more general conspiracy theory (which has been around for decades): scientifically bogus and politically makes no sense. How would Washington benefit?

On the science:

The origin of AIDS is not a mystery. There are at least two strains of HIV which apparently transferred to humans from other primates sometime in the 1950s or even earlier. Note: separate origins for the two strains. Apparently people catch simian viruses while butchering and eating chimps and monkeys.

Other recently emerging, deadly diseases are also species-jumpers: Ebola, rodent hantavirus, bird flu, maybe SARS.

Least technical explanation of this (http://www.avert.org/origins.htm)

Somwhat more technical (http://www.aidsmap.com/en/docs/667758BA-6EAE-4D7D-B230-8BD9467BF96E.asp)
That's the best I could find on the web right now, but there's better stuff in books if you really want to look into it. One of my biology textbooks (evolutionary biology) had a family tree of the different strains of SIV (Simian Immunodeficiency Virus) and HIV, as an example of recent evolution...

A third, recently identified strain of HIV may indicate that even more strains can make the jump to humans. (http://www.aegis.com/pubs/hivplus/1999/jan/link.html)

Some of the political problems with conspiracism generally. (http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/conspiracism.html)

[SPK]

Conspiracy theories, like the ones that have hovered around AIDS for years, present the cause of a event as some imaginary plot that was devised by government officials, or other people, in a smoke-filled room. Those ideas focus on the subjective, conscious intentions of a (bad) group of individuals.

So, conspiracy theories tend to hinder any understanding of the structural, impersonal causes of a event. AIDS and HIV didn’t become a crisis, simply because some new virus came into being (whether out of natural evolutionary process or because some B-movie evil scientist cooked it up in a lab). The crisis was caused by the preexisting systemic characteristics of the capitalist state.

Homophobia prevented people from taking the beginning stages of the crisis seriously, because gay men were one of the primary affected populations and were viewed as disposable. That allowed the epidemic to rapidly expand, unchecked by any governmental intervention or broad social concern. The prison-industrial complex and the massive criminalization of even casual drug use deterred (and continues to so in many cases) the creation of broad prevention campaigns that could honestly, and effectively, address the question of IV drug use. Lack of access to health care in the usa prevented many working class people who didn’t have insurance from getting treatments, once their HIV infection became full-blown AIDS. The capitalist profit motive meant that the initial treatments and drug regimens, once they had actually been developed by the pharmaceutical companies, were outrageously expensive and out of reach for most people with HIV. Racism meant that the crisis continued to be ignored, once it expanded to areas outside of the west, such as Africa. And so on.

Capitalism and the different oppressions and effects that it perpetuates are at the heart of the AIDS crisis. Conspiracy theories, while they were not uncommon among impacted communities – gays and African-Americans come immediately to mind – have done nothing to help understand and address those true structural causes.

[Matty_UK]

I heard a theory that AIDs isn't actually infectious and has nothing to do with HIV which is harmless.

http://www.sickofdoctors.addr.com/articles...nsistencies.htm (http://www.sickofdoctors.addr.com/articles/top100_aids_inconsistencies.htm)

These guys reckon it's caused by malnutrition, the use of certain drugs such as heroin and especially poppers, a drug which is used mainly by homosexuals, (and the unprecedented use of coincided with the beginnings of western AIDs outbreak) which reduce CD4 cell numbers; and it's also caused by anti-HIV drugs which inhibit protease and destroy T-cells. Also, most african AIDs victims apparently tested HIV negative-and there are many drug free, long living and healthy HIV positive people.

But I'm no doctor so I don't feel qualified to make a definite position anywhere here but I have to admit I find this argument intriguing.

[Janus]

AIDS isn't infectious, it is a condition. HIV on the other hand is infectious and definitely not harmless.


many drug free, long living and healthy HIV positive people.
Some people are actually immune to HIV infection and others have greater resistance to it which explains the long-term nonprogressors.

[ahab]

Originally posted by Severian+December 08, 2006 05:27 am--> (Severian @ December 08, 2006 05:27 am)
[email protected] 07, 2006 10:13 pm
ok I have been hearing a lot lately, that the government (being US) created aids. The first aids outbreak was in NY, and it was targeting black and gay people.
That's a new one to me - the claim that it started in NY. No, Africa.

As for the more general conspiracy theory (which has been around for decades): scientifically bogus and politically makes no sense. How would Washington benefit?

On the science:

The origin of AIDS is not a mystery. There are at least two strains of HIV which apparently transferred to humans from other primates sometime in the 1950s or even earlier. Note: separate origins for the two strains. Apparently people catch simian viruses while butchering and eating chimps and monkeys.

Other recently emerging, deadly diseases are also species-jumpers: Ebola, rodent hantavirus, bird flu, maybe SARS.

Least technical explanation of this (http://www.avert.org/origins.htm)

Somwhat more technical (http://www.aidsmap.com/en/docs/667758BA-6EAE-4D7D-B230-8BD9467BF96E.asp)
That's the best I could find on the web right now, but there's better stuff in books if you really want to look into it. One of my biology textbooks (evolutionary biology) had a family tree of the different strains of SIV (Simian Immunodeficiency Virus) and HIV, as an example of recent evolution...

A third, recently identified strain of HIV may indicate that even more strains can make the jump to humans. (http://www.aegis.com/pubs/hivplus/1999/jan/link.html)

Some of the political problems with conspiracism generally. (http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/conspiracism.html) [/b]
aww that explains alot, yea it sounded pretty far fetched, but I thought I would check with you guys and gals to see what you thought. Thanx for the feed back and for the link to aidsmap, that really explained a lot

[Tekun]

Has anyone else heard of this claim, brought up by many right wing religious goofs: "HIV was introduced to humans when men began having sex with monkeys, and then they transmitted it to their sexual partners and into society from there on"
I always call it bullshit from those who advocate religious family values , but I've never read anything that refutes it

[seg4527]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 11:22 am
I heard a theory that AIDs isn't actually infectious and has nothing to do with HIV which is harmless.

http://www.sickofdoctors.addr.com/articles...nsistencies.htm (http://www.sickofdoctors.addr.com/articles/top100_aids_inconsistencies.htm)

These guys reckon it's caused by malnutrition, the use of certain drugs such as heroin and especially poppers, a drug which is used mainly by homosexuals, (and the unprecedented use of coincided with the beginnings of western AIDs outbreak) which reduce CD4 cell numbers; and it's also caused by anti-HIV drugs which inhibit protease and destroy T-cells. Also, most african AIDs victims apparently tested HIV negative-and there are many drug free, long living and healthy HIV positive people.

But I'm no doctor so I don't feel qualified to make a definite position anywhere here but I have to admit I find this argument intriguing.
It's rather upsetting how much ignorance there is about this subject, especially on this forum, which I expected better from (long time lurker, first time poster). I recently did a project about AIDS in Africa for my Globalization and Social Justice class. And just to hear somebody say this stuff after all the information I came across. The life expectancy in South Africa is about 40 years now, mainly because of this disease. The WTO's TRIPS banned governments from getting generic drugs, forcing people to pay 5-15 thousand dollars a year (which they don't have) for expensive american medicine, instead of 300 dollar a year for generic drugs. People are dying, because they're not being tested because there is not even the hope of getting antiretroviral drubs because of capitalisms policy. The AIDS epidemic, which is killing millions of people, is one of the starkest examples of how capitalism fails. It's only willing to save peoples lives for a profit (example, US Tied aid to Africa, in which they give money to African nations only if the nations promise to buy the unbelievably expensive US Drugs. And here we have people throwing out all this senseless stuff about conspiracies and info from quack websites.

It's very real, it's very dangerous, and it shows some of the biggest flaws in the global capitalist system.

[Red October]

the government would gain nothing from a virus tha kills large numbers of homosexuals. if they creaed and spread a virus to kill gays, they could lose a major political issue. without gay people, they lose one more polarizing issue that they can use to appeal to "values voters" and evangelicals.

[manic expression]

My biology teacher from a few years back said it came from apes or monkeys, but was probably transmitted to hunters (which seems far more plausible than transmission through bestiality). There's really no evidence to say the US government started it, but it's more than clear that the US government did next to nothing while the homosexual community was being ravaged by the disease (just look at Reagan's quotes during that time period).

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Yeah it was most likely monkeys. How it got from monkeys too humans is a mystery.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 09:54 pm
Yeah it was most likely monkeys. How it got from monkeys too humans is a mystery.
Not really.

When imperialists were colonizing Africa, they would kill monkeys and get the monkey's blood everywhere. The monkey blood would get into the human's bloodstream and infect them with the "monkey-version" of the virus. Viruses have this funny tendency to mutate, and this the Human Immunodefeciency Virus was born.

I have heard the "blacks and gays are responsible for AIDS" bullshit, but never that they started it in NYC!

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 08:57 pm
Has anyone else heard of this claim, brought up by many right wing religious goofs: "HIV was introduced to humans when men began having sex with monkeys, and then they transmitted it to their sexual partners and into society from there on"
I always call it bullshit from those who advocate religious family values , but I've never read anything that refutes it
Yup, that's an 'urban legend' - with no supporting evidence whatsoever.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

Horrible man made weapons virus developed by nazi germany in the 40's and utilized by neo- nazi groups in conjunction with the illuminati today.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 05:19 am
Horrible man made weapons virus developed by nazi germany in the 40's and utilized by neo- nazi groups in conjunction with the illuminati today.
Is that from an Immortal Technique song?

[TheDifferenceEngine]

Originally posted by Black Dagger+December 13, 2006 10:01 am--> (Black Dagger @ December 13, 2006 10:01 am)
[email protected] 13, 2006 05:19 am
Horrible man made weapons virus developed by nazi germany in the 40's and utilized by neo- nazi groups in conjunction with the illuminati today.
Is that from an Immortal Technique song? [/b]
Who the fuck are immortal technique?

[Springmeester]

Originally posted by TheDifferenceEngine+December 14, 2006 04:43 pm--> (TheDifferenceEngine @ December 14, 2006 04:43 pm)
Originally posted by Black [email protected] 13, 2006 10:01 am

[email protected] 13, 2006 05:19 am
Horrible man made weapons virus developed by nazi germany in the 40's and utilized by neo- nazi groups in conjunction with the illuminati today.
Is that from an Immortal Technique song?
Who the fuck are immortal technique? [/b]
Immortal Technique is a communist rapper from harlem.
Some of his lyrics are really cool but I tend to get irritated by his homophobic tendency.

Check it out:
Immortal Technique (http://www.immortal-technique.com/)

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2006 07:19 pm
Horrible man made weapons virus developed by nazi germany in the 40's and utilized by neo- nazi groups in conjunction with the illuminati today.
You're joking right...

[Vargha Poralli]

Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2006 04:27 pm
Has anyone else heard of this claim, brought up by many right wing religious goofs: "HIV was introduced to humans when men began having sex with monkeys, and then they transmitted it to their sexual partners and into society from there on"
I always call it bullshit from those who advocate religious family values , but I've never read anything that refutes it
1) Not from monkeys but from Apes.Most probably Bonobos.

2) Not because of having sex with them but either by eating the bush meat or getting bitten by them humans got the virus in to their bodies.

3) My biggest wonder was how did it get to other continents so rapidly.


Horrible man made weapons virus developed by nazi germany in the 40's and utilized by neo- nazi groups in conjunction with the illuminati today.

What the hell are you smoking man ? :unsure: :blink: