Prison Abolishment

[Pirate Utopian]

I have came across the idea of prison abolishment and I must say that it was the most crazy shit i ever heard of!
Now opions could diffrent, but abolishing prison would cause nothing but chaos, how else will people take care of those criminals?
Im not critizing Anarchists or something because some self-proclaimed Communists like Angela Davis support this idea.
However im curious what Anarchists have to say on this, afterall prison is clearly authorian...

Discuss

[which doctor]

Of course I support opening up the prisons.

[Jesus Christ!]

Yea this theory has long confused me as well. Personally I fully agree that victimless crimes or crimes that only hurt the person who is partaking in them ie. drug use do not warrant jail time but murder? rape? I don't see how you can allow murders and rapists to just walk the streets.

[Rawthentic]

I fully support prison abolishment, for it is a big time business for capitalists that are placed in ghettos and barrios, just so that the little Latino or Black kids can look forward to a great future. Plus, the vast majority of those in prison are victims of economic necessity, which is why they commit robbery, murder,etc. In a new revolutionary society, criminals would have to be placed in a reformatory system, or a revolutionary prison system at that, so that instead of being penned up and left worse than when you came in, you can start anew.

[YSR]

Originally posted by Black Panther Party Platform
8. We want freedom for all black men held in federal, state, county and city prisons and jails.

We believe that all black people should be released from the many jails and prisons because they have not received a fair and impartial trial.

9. We want all black people when brought to trial to be tried in court by a jury of their peer group or people from their black communities, as defined by the Constitution of the United States.

We believe that the courts should follow the United States Constitution so that black people will receive fair trials. The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution gives a man a right to be tried by his peer group. A peer is a person from a similar economic, social, religious, geographical, environmental, historical and racial background. To do this the court will be forced to select a jury from the black community from which the black defendant came. We have been, and are being tried by all-white juries that have no understanding of the "average reasoning man" of the black community.

Makes sense to me.

And furthermore, it's important that the anarchist tradition envisions a lot more of a rupture within society than Marxist theory does. We don't expect years of "socialism" for people to realize why private property is bad and to stop committing crimes like murder or why sexism is wrong and stop committing crimes like rape. By building a counter-power, a new system "within the shell of the old," we plan to teach people how to run their own lives while the capitalist epoch remains in power.

So by the time that we storm the Bastille, the prisoners won't likely be comitting those crimes in the post-revolutionary situation.

BTW, a question: I was reading Bobby Seale's biography tonight and he mentioned that Franz Fanon calls for an organization of the lumpenproletariat as a precondition to revolution. Anyone read his "Wretched of the Earth" and can elaborate? I'd appreaciate it, especially in the context of this conversation. Cheers!)

[MrDoom]

Originally posted by Young Stupid [email protected] 08, 2006 02:50 am
And furthermore, it's important that the anarchist tradition envisions a lot more of a rupture within society than Marxist theory does. We don't expect years of "socialism" for people to realize why private property is bad and to stop committing crimes like murder or why sexism is wrong and stop committing crimes like rape.
If the people have established socialism, they already realize private property is bad. It isn't about making people regard property as bad, but making the material conditions such that private property (and hence most crime) is impossible in the first place.

[Rawthentic]

Being libertarian as well, I stand with both of you, comrades. The problem is, that after the revolution, the capitalist social relations will have not been defeated yet. People will not have entirely new relations amongst each other. That is why I believe that there has to be some sort of "transition period", but no in the bullshit Leninist term, like the "transition period" for the USSR, Vietnam, N. Korea, etc. ended up in state-capitalism. After this period where new, revolutionary social relations arise, material conditions permitting, will permit the rise of a totally new society. Ill call it communism, you can call it whatever. It ends up being the same.

[La Comédie Noire]

Now do you mean opening of the current Prison system? Or of a Prision System more close to the time of reveloution? because i can tell you the composition of the "criminal element" inside most jails of those times will probably be openly active comrades. If that is so than I am all for the releasing of prisoners.

But, if you mean the prison systems as of now, than i could'nt tell you. If they released prisoners would they be obligated to fight along side of us, even if they are not for the cause? and if yes than would'nt that be opressing prisoners?

[Rawthentic]

I guess I'm not sure what the thread author made it to be. Im not sure that all the prisoners in this system would fight alongside us, for many hold reactionary and racist beliefs. It wouldn't be oppressing prisoners. They fight if they want to, if they feel the cause. If not, then they can go to hell.

[Pirate Utopian]

okay, i ment in post-revolutionary society how will the criminals be punished?
see during a revolution busting certain people out of jail is expected.
but after that, what does a "reformatory system" mean?, i mean rapists, killers and sush just cant walk around freely

[bcbm]

I absolutely support the abolishment of prisons. Prisons are racist institutions designed to maximize profits for their bourgeois owners. Prisoners are used as slave labor for one, and the prisons are continually being pushed to capacity in order for more to be built. This neccesitates arresting and imprisoning more and more individuals. It is no coincidence the US has the highest incarcerated population in the industrialized world. Nothing about the prison system is related to improving society, only improving profit margins and the constant demand for prisoners makes all of us the supply: we could all become prisoners. To support such an unjust and authoritarian system under the guise of "protecting society" from whomever is poorly thought out absurdity, at best. To be sure, there are some individuals in society that need to be dealt with, but prison does nothing to address that.


okay, i ment in post-revolutionary society how will the criminals be punished?

However the community they reside in decides to punish them.

[harris0]

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 08, 2006 06:28 pm
I absolutely support the abolishment of prisons. Prisons are racist institutions designed to maximize profits for their bourgeois owners. Prisoners are used as slave labor for one, and the prisons are continually being pushed to capacity in order for more to be built. This neccesitates arresting and imprisoning more and more individuals. It is no coincidence the US has the highest incarcerated population in the industrialized world. Nothing about the prison system is related to improving society, only improving profit margins and the constant demand for prisoners makes all of us the supply: we could all become prisoners. To support such an unjust and authoritarian system under the guise of "protecting society" from whomever is poorly thought out absurdity, at best. To be sure, there are some individuals in society that need to be dealt with, but prison does nothing to address that.


okay, i ment in post-revolutionary society how will the criminals be punished?

However the community they reside in decides to punish them.
Well it's easy to write that sentence...but Dude..local communities judging and punishing them however they want? What does that mean? Vigilantiism? or is there going to be a community judiciary type institution.

Do you believe that people's prejudices will suddenly dissapear after the fabled revolution takes place? If so I'd like to introduce you to the real world. If not, how would you make at least an effort that people got equal punishments for equal crimes, "anti-social" behaviors...whatever you want to call it.

[Pirate Utopian]

i have problems with current prisonsystem too, but what other solutions are there?, when you say...

Originally posted by black banner black gun
However the community they reside in decides to punish them.
well what if the community wants to lock the criminals up?, i think some anwsers are vague, because if killers and rapists dont get locked up and i dont see deathpenalty as a solution what else is there to do?
if we let them loose they might do it again.

[harris0]

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 08, 2006 06:28 pm

However the community they reside in decides to punish them.
How would you prevent (for instance) a black gay man being imprisoned for life for assault....but letting a white guy off with rehabilitation for the same crime?

[Fawkes]

Crime would be virtually non-existant in a post-revolution society. Almost all criminals are products of their environments. Once that environment is destroyed, so will be the criminal aspects of those people.

[harris0]

Originally posted by Freedom for [email protected] 08, 2006 08:58 pm
Crime would be virtually non-existant in a post-revolution society. Almost all criminals are products of their environments. Once that environment is destroyed, so will be the criminal aspects of those people.
That's very hopeful. But untrue unfourtanetly.

[Red October]

but what do we do about murderers, rapists, and other criminals who dont commit crimes for economic reasons?

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by Red October [email protected] 08, 2006 04:06 pm
but what do we do about murderers, rapists, and other criminals who dont commit crimes for economic reasons?
Murders would be, for the most part, reduced dramatically. Rapes would be close to non-existant because of the abolishment of the ideology of women as material.

[harris0]

As already mentioned...murderers, rapists etc...their crimes have nothing to do with scarcity.

Besides, economic related crimes still take place even when the criminals themselves have no need for the cash. Why did the Enron guys break the law? They already had more money then they could ever spend in their lifetime. Their are motivations aside from purely economic ones. Marxists for some reason have a very hard time admitting that.

[harris0]

Originally posted by Freedom for all...ALL+December 08, 2006 09:10 pm--> (Freedom for all...ALL @ December 08, 2006 09:10 pm)
Red October [email protected] 08, 2006 04:06 pm
but what do we do about murderers, rapists, and other criminals who dont commit crimes for economic reasons?
Murders would be, for the most part, reduced dramatically. Rapes would be close to non-existant because of the abolishment of the ideology of women as material. [/b]
And the weather would always be 70 degrees and sunny. Give me a fucking break. I'd like to introduce you to this thing called the REAL WORLD.

[Fawkes]

^^^ Thanks, I live in it. And, I don't live in California so the weather is not always 70 degrees and sunny.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 04:10 pm
As already mentioned...murderers, rapists etc...their crimes have nothing to do with scarcity.

Besides, economic related crimes still take place even when the criminals themselves have no need for the cash. Why did the Enron guys break the law? They already had more money then they could ever spend in their lifetime. Their are motivations aside from purely economic ones. Marxists for some reason have a very hard time admitting that.
Ken Lay (who happens to be my avatar) stole because of greed. In a post-revolution society, what is there to be greedy about?

[harris0]

Originally posted by Freedom for all...ALL+December 08, 2006 09:15 pm--> (Freedom for all...ALL @ December 08, 2006 09:15 pm)
[email protected] 08, 2006 04:10 pm
As already mentioned...murderers, rapists etc...their crimes have nothing to do with scarcity.

Besides, economic related crimes still take place even when the criminals themselves have no need for the cash. Why did the Enron guys break the law? They already had more money then they could ever spend in their lifetime. Their are motivations aside from purely economic ones. Marxists for some reason have a very hard time admitting that.
Ken Lay (who happens to be my avatar) stole because of greed. In a post-revolution society, what is there to be greedy about? [/b]
That's my point. He had no reason to be...he already had more money then he could possibly use.

[harris0]

But don't get hung up on that particular example. My point is that you are living in a dream world, as pleasant as it may be.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by harris0+December 08, 2006 04:16 pm--> (harris0 @ December 08, 2006 04:16 pm)
Originally posted by Freedom for [email protected] 08, 2006 09:15 pm

[email protected] 08, 2006 04:10 pm
As already mentioned...murderers, rapists etc...their crimes have nothing to do with scarcity.

Besides, economic related crimes still take place even when the criminals themselves have no need for the cash. Why did the Enron guys break the law? They already had more money then they could ever spend in their lifetime. Their are motivations aside from purely economic ones. Marxists for some reason have a very hard time admitting that.
Ken Lay (who happens to be my avatar) stole because of greed. In a post-revolution society, what is there to be greedy about?
That's my point. He had no reason to be...he already had more money then he could possibly use. [/b]
He did have a reason, greed. Greed wouldn't really exist in a post-revolutionary society (as was stated in my previous post) because there wouldn't really be anything to be greedy over.

[harris0]

Originally posted by Freedom for all...ALL+December 08, 2006 09:19 pm--> (Freedom for all...ALL @ December 08, 2006 09:19 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 04:16 pm

Originally posted by Freedom for [email protected] 08, 2006 09:15 pm

[email protected] 08, 2006 04:10 pm
As already mentioned...murderers, rapists etc...their crimes have nothing to do with scarcity.

Besides, economic related crimes still take place even when the criminals themselves have no need for the cash. Why did the Enron guys break the law? They already had more money then they could ever spend in their lifetime. Their are motivations aside from purely economic ones. Marxists for some reason have a very hard time admitting that.
Ken Lay (who happens to be my avatar) stole because of greed. In a post-revolution society, what is there to be greedy about?
That's my point. He had no reason to be...he already had more money then he could possibly use.
He did have a reason, greed. Greed wouldn't really exist in a post-revolutionary society (as was stated in my previous post) because there wouldn't really be anything to be greedy over. [/b]
Saying it doesn't make it so. Human nature won't change and all people won't become angels after the fabled revolution. Come down to the real world.

[Fawkes]

God, you really love that phrase don't you, "real world." Maybe human nature won't change, but like I said, what is there to be greedy about in a post-revolution society?

[harris0]

Originally posted by Freedom for [email protected] 08, 2006 09:26 pm
God, you really love that phrase don't you, "real world." Maybe human nature won't change, but like I said, what is there to be greedy about in a post-revolution society?
It's not necessarily even about greed. (although of course it will still exist...people will always want more than the next guy) It could be about any number of things...a crime of passion, lust for flesh, lust for power, fury, vengeance...and on and on. People are a lot more complicated than simply economic motivators.

[Prairie Fire]

I'm more in favor of the "Bullet in brain" form of penal system.

Under this method, enemies of the people who have done nothing but wronged the new society would not be able to leech off of the very society that they had wronged. Why feed an individual for 25 years to life, when he has raped or murdered someone?

While I definately agree that the causes of the overwhelming majority of crimes are related to material conditions, there are always other conditions that are exceptions to the rule: Mental psychosis, crimes of passion, glutonous greed, etc.


Of course the current system of prisons is fucked up ( Most of my comrades have done time, but it is not the prison itself that is the problem. I have a problem with what people are being sent to prison for, and the kinds of punishments they are recieving, but I am not so naive that I have a problem with the concept of a prison itself.

[harris0]

Originally posted by Freedom for [email protected] 08, 2006 09:26 pm
God, you really love that phrase don't you, "real world." Maybe human nature won't change, but like I said, what is there to be greedy about in a post-revolution society?
The only reason I'm repeating that term is because you're thinking is so far from it :lol:
It's just very, very naive. No offense intended.

[CheRev]

I'm more in favor of the "Bullet in brain" form of penal system.

Under this method, enemies of the people who have done nothing but wronged the new society would not be able to leech off of the very society that they had wronged. Why feed an individual for 25 years to life, when he has raped or murdered someone?



Yeah because the people deciding who is guilty or not will always be right!


I believe in long-term rehabilitation (as long as it takes to get the person straight again), working with the persoin to sort out whatever issues caused the individual to commit the crime and getting him ready to live a normal productive life. In this way we will also learn more about the human race and not waste what has the potential to be a part of society.

Revenge is not the answer to any problem (as tempting as this may be at times), lets evolve not devolve back to the stone age. It's far to easy to say 'lets kill them' or 'lets lock them up forever', why not be a bit more creative.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 12:38 pm
Well it's easy to write that sentence...but Dude..local communities judging and punishing them however they want? What does that mean? Vigilantiism? or is there going to be a community judiciary type institution.
I can't say- I have no interest in dictating to the under-classes how things will be after they do the dirty work of destroying this society- they will decide that for themselves. That doesn't mean I will agree or consent to any of their choices, merely that I would be a participant at most, not an ideologue or "planner" of revolution.


Do you believe that people's prejudices will suddenly dissapear after the fabled revolution takes place? If so I'd like to introduce you to the real world. If not, how would you make at least an effort that people got equal punishments for equal crimes, "anti-social" behaviors...whatever you want to call it.

Of course not all prejudices will dissapear, and obviously people will still engage in anti-social behavior, but I am not interested in speculating on how members of a free society would choose to govern themselves. I think there are obvious examples that are possibilities- executions, banishment, reform programs, rehabilitation, etc, but I will not put stock in any one as being THE solution that will arise after bourgeois society is gone.


How would you prevent (for instance) a black gay man being imprisoned for life for assault....but letting a white guy off with rehabilitation for the same crime?

I would imagine any "justice system" would be subject to a number of controls and checks to make sure there were no such abuses.
----


well what if the community wants to lock the criminals up?, i think some anwsers are vague, because if killers and rapists dont get locked up and i dont see deathpenalty as a solution what else is there to do?
if we let them loose they might do it again.

The future is vague. There are a number of other options than "locking people up," I mentioned them above. If the community decides to build prisons, I doubt I will long remain a part of such a community.
----


it is not the prison itself that is the problem. I have a problem with what people are being sent to prison for, and the kinds of punishments they are recieving, but I am not so naive that I have a problem with the concept of a prison itself.

There is nothing naive in opposing prisons themselves- they are institutions of oppression that do nothing to improve society and reduce crime, and everything to make their inhabitants more angry and more anti-social.

[Pirate Utopian]

but with prison abolishment what will be done to protect the people from the rapists and killers?

and FFAA i knwo there is no reason to be greedy but i mean mentally disturbed people who kill and rape sush as Charles Manson and sush....