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Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
6th December 2006, 17:22
sorry this may be a stupid Q but in a communist society(using money still) would a doctor get paid as much as a bin man?

A.J.
6th December 2006, 18:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2006 05:22 pm
sorry this may be a stupid Q but in a communist society(using money still) would a doctor get paid as much as a bin man?
In a communist society there wouldn't be money. Money is a token of commodity exchange(Commodity production - that is production regulated by the profit motive - would have ceased and production for social need will have become the regulator). Therefore money, as such, will have lost it's function and be rendered superfluous.

As for your original question, would a doctor receive as much as a bin man, you seem to be assuming that there would still be a division of labour(which is a phenomenon specific to class society - slavery, feudalism and capitalism)

"In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and with it also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished, after labor has become not only a livelihood but life's prime want, after the productive forces have increased with the all-round development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly--only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois law be left behind in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!" Marx, 'Critique of the Gotha Programme'

Aurora
6th December 2006, 18:19
Couldnt have been said better :)

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
7th December 2006, 15:58
Sorry A.J but could you simplify your answer, im 14 and my English is not that good!lol

crippled sloth
7th December 2006, 18:29
There are many forms of communism. It depends on who you ask.

The Grey Blur
7th December 2006, 21:33
Let's say in an early Socialist society

La Comédie Noire
8th December 2006, 04:31
In a communist society there would be no need for money as previously stated, but if you mean a bin man would get the same amount of what is nessicary to live as a doctor then the answer is yes. The doctor and the bin man are both human beings, with human needs, needs which should superceed roles in society for there to be true equality.

This is just my assumption:
As for an early Socialist society things would be rough. When capitalism falls it will not fall lightly. Life in a post capitalist world will be one of hardship and work. Rebuilding society will be no easy task. Rations may be put in place to assure the nourishment of as many as possible. As for how that pans out between doctors and bin men, I could'nt tell you, but i'd like to hope as equally as possible.

JRR883
8th December 2006, 12:22
I'd just like to point out that in a communist society, there probably wouldn't be a person whose work is picking up trash. It would most likely be a rotated task delegated throughout the community.

Tekun
9th December 2006, 10:40
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 12:22 pm
I'd just like to point out that in a communist society, there probably wouldn't be a person whose work is picking up trash. It would most likely be a rotated task delegated throughout the community.
I disagree, street maintenance and garbage collection is an honest profession that will be filled by those who decide to become just that
When society reaches communism and money is abolished, ppl will do their job as a service to society, and the stigma surrounding the profession will begin to disappear as society's realizes the necessity of the job, in addition to the equality and prestige of every vocation
No job will be more important than the other, on the contrary, all jobs will be equal due to the absence of unequal pay that is so evident in today's society
Furthermore, some ppl will decide to make a profession out of it either because they decide not to follow a vocation that requires a high level of education or because they see the importance of such a job
These ppl would embrace and feel proud to have the job bkuz they, like all of us would understand that all jobs are equally as important

The mentality in a capitalist society is that these are jobs that no one would want or desire because of the lack of skills needed and the nature of the job (the filth factor)
Nevertheless, there are ppl in these jobs for the reasons I mentioned above
And many reach a point where they love the job, yet hate the lack of equal pay and benefits of garbage collection as a profession
That's what they hate, not the job itself
Therefore, its irrational to think that under communism, all ppl would evade garbage collection as a job, when there are ppl who do it now and enjoy it
Under communism, these ppl would be thrilled because they would be doing what they love for society no less, all while their needs were fully satisfied

I believe that the only task that would be rotated or shared by all members of society would be the enforcers or militias that would take action in case of violence or crime

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
10th December 2006, 20:20
But surley a doctors work is more demanding than a bin-man and more important(bcos anyone can pick up trash, but not everyone can operate on the brain for example. I understand that everyone gives what they can, and gets what they need, but what about lazines, a clever person that cant be arsed to be a doctor and picks up rubbish for a living?

phoenixoftime
11th December 2006, 10:15
Ahh yes but why does a bin man have to be an idiot? He could be working for an environmental management co-operative which develops recycling and disposal solutions for the city, and it is simply his rostered turn on collection duty. In a socialist society, all persons should be able to receive a high level of education, including within their workplace throughout their career, regardless of income. Coupled with good work conditions, this would prevent people being forced to do menial tasks all day, since they have other skills to offer. And why waste those skills?

Lamanov
11th December 2006, 17:13
Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2006 03:58 pm
Sorry A.J but could you simplify your answer, im 14 and my English is not that good!lol

It's quite simple, really.

There will be no wages, because people will not sell their labor power.

Our labor will be joined, and we will all be able to decide on how much and what we want to consume.

Today, we make stuff because we want to sell them, so there's a need to measure labor time stored up in that stuff: thus, money.

In communism, we will make stuff becuase there's a need for it, and we will make it for each other by consensus, "deal" of all the labourers. So there won't be a need to measure labor time invested (maybe only for technicalities, but that's another question).

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
11th December 2006, 17:35
But would there be a form of "credit" for spending on luxuries etc? i.e u get enough for the necasities for your family and some left over for luxuries? And what about trading with other countries?

Lamanov
11th December 2006, 18:12
What are luxuries? I mean, what do you mean by them?

Trade? You mean with the part of the world which is not communist? Nope, no trade. There's no exchange, at all. Only production for needs.

By exchange, we mean one type of product is given up for another. In that case, market is the mediator.

But when we produce directly for each other, when we make a pact to create for each other in such and such way, there's no market and no mediator -- and, thus, no trade.

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
11th December 2006, 19:05
Originally posted by DJ-[email protected] 11, 2006 06:12 pm

Trade? You mean with the part of the world which is not communist? Nope, no trade. There's no exchange, at all. Only production for needs.

By exchange, we mean one type of product is given up for another. In that case, market is the mediator.

But when we produce directly for each other, when we make a pact to create for each other is such and such way, there's no market and no mediator.
But what about stuff that can not be "made" in the country in question i.e bananas?

By luxuries i mean TVs Cd players etc.

Lamanov
11th December 2006, 19:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 07:05 pm
But what about stuff that can not be "made" in the country in question i.e bananas?
Well, we'd need workers who work on banana plantations to take over and join the "freely associated labor" community.


By luxuries i mean TVs Cd players etc.

Those are oridinary "mass consumption" products like almost everything else on the planet: chocolate bars, milk, taxi service, shippment, etc.

There's nothing "lux" about them.

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
11th December 2006, 19:12
So would people get anything to notify the hours they've worked etc. so if you work harder you get more reward?

Lamanov
11th December 2006, 19:25
Imagine working in a work collective in which you don't have coercion and competition. There's no boss and no piece work pressure to make you hustle.

The only thing "driving" you to work is a responsibility you take over when you step in that collective.

So there's no way someone will be materially "rewarded" for working "harder"... it could only mean that you will have to work less.



You've asked about TVs and techics in general, and you probably want to know what happens with the quality of such products.

It's pretty simple: today quality of products vary because there's a competition between owners in production who want to sell a better TV at that same price or same TV at smaller price, and thus, take the market.

One worker who makes TVs takes two more hours than some other worker to make even less quality product. Why? Because he is less trained, uses weaker equpment and means of prodution, design, etc.

But in communist society, the goal will not be to sell dearer, but to produce in order to meet certain needs. That's why the second worker (and collective) will share their knowledge, equipment and skill with the first worker (and group) and the result will be such: more quality products at less utilized labor time.

That's joined, or "freely associated labor".

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
11th December 2006, 19:30
But some people would not wish to give what they can to society, but rather cheat it by doing an "easier job"

Lamanov
11th December 2006, 19:42
Why?

( R )evolution
11th December 2006, 23:23
Originally posted by Tekun+December 09, 2006 10:40 am--> (Tekun @ December 09, 2006 10:40 am)
[email protected] 08, 2006 12:22 pm
I'd just like to point out that in a communist society, there probably wouldn't be a person whose work is picking up trash. It would most likely be a rotated task delegated throughout the community.
I disagree, street maintenance and garbage collection is an honest profession that will be filled by those who decide to become just that
When society reaches communism and money is abolished, ppl will do their job as a service to society, and the stigma surrounding the profession will begin to disappear as society's realizes the necessity of the job, in addition to the equality and prestige of every vocation
No job will be more important than the other, on the contrary, all jobs will be equal due to the absence of unequal pay that is so evident in today's society
Furthermore, some ppl will decide to make a profession out of it either because they decide not to follow a vocation that requires a high level of education or because they see the importance of such a job
These ppl would embrace and feel proud to have the job bkuz they, like all of us would understand that all jobs are equally as important

The mentality in a capitalist society is that these are jobs that no one would want or desire because of the lack of skills needed and the nature of the job (the filth factor)
Nevertheless, there are ppl in these jobs for the reasons I mentioned above
And many reach a point where they love the job, yet hate the lack of equal pay and benefits of garbage collection as a profession
That's what they hate, not the job itself
Therefore, its irrational to think that under communism, all ppl would evade garbage collection as a job, when there are ppl who do it now and enjoy it
Under communism, these ppl would be thrilled because they would be doing what they love for society no less, all while their needs were fully satisfied

I believe that the only task that would be rotated or shared by all members of society would be the enforcers or militias that would take action in case of violence or crime [/b]
I disagree, hopefully by the time of the revolution there will be ienough techongology where we woudnt have to have people who pick up trash. And I believe that the workers should clean there own shit up and I think it would be better to have a community delgate the responbility of taking the trash to the dumb, but that is still depent if we are throwing away trash like we do today.

( R )evolution
11th December 2006, 23:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 07:30 pm
But some people would not wish to give what they can to society, but rather cheat it by doing an "easier job"
In a communist society people will not be feuled by an "easier job" but rather what they like to do. Unlike in a capitalistic society, in communism there will be equal oppurinties for everyone so anyone can do what ever they wish.

DougMagic
12th December 2006, 00:00
I recall reading something about Che. After the revolution when he working as the Secretary of Treasury he would work daily for many hours and then afterwords go and assist those on co-op farms.

The true joy comes from the labor, from the contribution to society.

Tekun
12th December 2006, 03:59
Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2006 08:20 pm
But surley a doctors work is more demanding than a bin-man and more important(bcos anyone can pick up trash, but not everyone can operate on the brain for example. I understand that everyone gives what they can, and gets what they need, but what about lazines, a clever person that cant be arsed to be a doctor and picks up rubbish for a living?
I don't believe so...if trash isn't picked up, we would all die of diseases
In the centuries b4 the industrial revolutions, millions died of diseases that would have been eliminated had it not been for the abundance of filth and waste in cities and towns
Look at the Black Plague, it spread due to the unsanitary conditions in which ppl lived and worked in
Therefore, ppl trained to clean and keep the cities sanitary are highly valuable to society
The best way to avoid going to the doctors is to keep society clean and sanitary

In addition, there is no job that is more important in a communist society
Some might have a bigger impact on a person's life, but all are just as equal for society to function properly and efficiently
Some vocations might be more study intensive, while others might require physical intensity, but they all serve to help society keep going
If one piece was missing, society would crumble
Therefore, they're all equally important if society is to thrive



I disagree, hopefully by the time of the revolution there will be ienough techongology where we woudnt have to have people who pick up trash. And I believe that the workers should clean there own shit up and I think it would be better to have a community delgate the responbility of taking the trash to the dumb, but that is still depent if we are throwing away trash like we do today.

Well, we don't have the technology to build machines that pick up trash, as of right now
So we shouldn't count on having machines in the future
All ppl will have important jobs in a communist society, and many jobs will be time consuming, therefore we can't have some ppl taking out their own garbage and others not taking it out themselves due to time constraints
Therefore, qualified and hardworking garbage men would take care of that for all of us, as they do their service to help society run better
I find your suggestion of delegating the garbage responsibilities to "the dumb," rather elitist and ignorant <_<
There are no dumb ppl, just because some of us aren&#39;t good at a certain thing or task does not make us dumb

( R )evolution
12th December 2006, 04:35
Hahha I meant "dump" read my sig. English isnt my first language and I suck at spelling.

Tekun
12th December 2006, 11:15
Originally posted by ( R )[email protected] 12, 2006 04:35 am
Hahha I meant "dump" read my sig. English isnt my first language and I suck at spelling.
Ohhh, my bad :lol:
And don&#39;t worry, your English is great, except for a few typo&#39;s here and there (but that happens to all of us)

The Feral Underclass
12th December 2006, 13:23
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2006 06:22 pm
sorry this may be a stupid Q but in a communist society(using money still) would a doctor get paid as much as a bin man?
I think before you can understand the concept of "wages" in a communist society, you have to understand what communism is.

Communism is a theory for a society that has developed out of struggle between two antagonistic classes (working class and ruling class).

A communist society is created when capitalism and the state no longer exist forming a world, which is both without a state (stateless) and without class (classless). This society will achieve equality and freedoms unlike we have ever understood it.

In order to achieve this society the working class have to develop what is classed "class consciousness". This class-consciousness is an understanding of the material conditions in which the working class live. I.e. their exploitation.

Class-consciousness is also a process in which working class people begin to understand different ways of thinking, feeling and behaving. Communism is a renaissance. There will be a shift in how people want society to be and without this shift, communism cannot be created.

What this means is, peoples attitudes towards certain things will change. Communism, being a society of freedom, will see people beginning to use their reason rather than their emotion or "experience". People will look at things rationally and make decisions which benefit [communist] society as a whole, rather than individually.

When you ask "would a doctor get paid as much as a bin man?" you miss the point of communism. This attitude of people getting paid more than others is an attitude that exists in capitalist society; it&#39;s what differentiates human from human and thus creates the system of class.

Communism is based on the maxim "from each according to ability; from each according to need." This means that people will give to society what society needs and in return will receive back from society what it is they need.

There will be no wages because people will simply do the work that is necessary. There will be no differentiation between those jobs; they will simply be classed as socially necessary and people will only receive in return what they need to exist.

A doctor will not be a doctor because he is getting paid allot of money. He will be a doctor, just as the bin man will be a bin man, because they want society to function as a whole and to ensure the continuation of their communities.

A doctor will be a doctor not because of money; but because he wants to help people.


But surley a doctors work is more demanding than a bin-man and more important(bcos anyone can pick up trash, but not everyone can operate on the brain for example

A doctor’s work is more demanding, but it is equally as necessary as a bin man. In fact, bin men and doctors must work together in order to ensure humans live healthy lives.

A bin man needs to clear rubbish, which keeps our streets clean and free from disease while a doctor helps those with illnesses get better.


But would there be a form of "credit" for spending on luxuries etc? i.e u get enough for the necasities for your family and some left over for luxuries? And what about trading with other countries?

What we judge to be luxuries now, may not be what we judge as luxuries in a communist society.

The production of televisions and DVD players is a burden on the environment and actually, when people have destroyed capitalism and created a society in which you can fulfil your dreams, I find it highly unlikely that TV&#39;s etc will be of concern.

However, if people wanted a TV, it would be their responsibility to make it. Perhaps this would be taken up by a collective of people to pursue when they were not involved in socially necessary work. Perhaps instead of having a TV, each community could build a community cinema.


So would people get anything to notify the hours they&#39;ve worked etc. so if you work harder you get more reward?

People would not be rewarded for working harder than someone else because the whole basis of communism is you work as much as is necessary. If return for that, you would receive what was necessary for you, individually, to survive.

For example, in your community, it maybe necessary for you to work at the food making factory 7 hours a week. In return for that work, you will be given a house, food, electricity, water etc.

The reason that is possible is because everyone in your community and region is working 7 hours a week in a job that provides everyone with food, water, and electricity.

Do you understand?

Lamanov
12th December 2006, 17:36
Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 12, 2006 01:23 pm
The production of televisions and DVD players is a burden on the environment and actually, when people have destroyed capitalism and created a society in which you can fulfil your dreams, I find it highly unlikely that TV&#39;s etc will be of concern.


There will still be a need for technology which will make our life easier: for communication, creativity, learning, etc, even if it, in some way, affects our planet. We will, of course, try to save our environment through adapting our way of production and consumption.

Today, we have MANY technologies and sucessfull research on stand by beacuse they cannot do any good on the market.

But tomorrow, we will be able to use them in a way which the community could benefit.

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
3rd January 2007, 09:57
Thanks i understand now.....but what about activities i.e watching football or Thai Boxing. Which (Thai B) is an expensive sport (gloves etc.) would someone else who doesnt do sport just sits down get something else to make her equal to theBoxer?

RGacky3
4th January 2007, 01:08
Wages don&#39;t exist under communism. of coarse there are some who still believe in market-socialism, where only wage-labor is eliminated and people either work alone or in collectives (many individualist-anarchists would support this), but goods and services are still exchanged over the market but not labor. People just do whatever to help the Society (some will be doctors, some will be farmers, some will produce things), and if there is something so undesireable that no one wants to do it willingly and it must be done, it would just be shared, and then people will get what they need, and share whatever extra stuff they have, basically a democratically run economy. When it comes to sports, it the community decides that someone needs to play sports for entertainment and thats the best thing they could be doing for society, and someone wants to do that, then there we go thats fine, but I really doubt it :P, kind of pointless to have payed athletes if you ask me, sports are just fun, but thats just my opinion.