Code name: "Trinity" - The father of the atom bomb a commun

[ireallyhadablackout]

I have made no secret of the fact that I am of no political or religious affiliation, so the mere mention of the fact that the father of the atom bomb was none other than Robert "Oppie" Oppenheimer, is not an attempt to criticize yet to educate and receive a reponse by you and as to what you think.

Although, it has not been made clear to me, at this point whether or not Oppenheimer who was put in charge of the atomic bomb in 1942, and was introduced as the "father of the atomic bomb" in 1945 leading to the armament race, was part of the Communist Party or a in fact a sympathizer of the party.

Oppenheimer was the son of a New York business man who left Germany for the United States at the age of 17 to make a fortune. Robert "Oppie" was an American and may have had ties to the American Communist Party that Stalin spoke of on at least one occasion. At one time he was engaged to the daughter of an English Professor at Berkelely, Jean, a devoted communist. The engagement ended when he fell passionately in love with the dauther of General Keitel, who he met at the Plant Research Laboratory in Pasadena, and married.

It was said that Oppenheimer dropped all ties to the Communists once he was married yet it is believed that his associations with Communists circles continued.

If in fact, Oppenheimer continued to remain loyal to the communists, it would explain a lot, then and could shed some light on the world political situation, now.

There is a really old book out there and it is written by the communist author Robert Jungk called "Brighter than a Thousand Suns." The book is a touching reality of the scientists who discovered, invented, and desperately attempted to tame the "beast" of the false prophets.

Although, I remain without judgement of these brilliant men, I am only left with their sense of hopelessness for the time being.

It is my perception that the United States traded "atomic" secrets for "industry" and that could explain why industrialization failed in Russia yet was so conveniently established in the United States.

The armament race has in fact changed the international political front forever and one can only wonder if there is "no turning back". And to this I say again...APOSTASY NOW!

"I Wanna Love You!" - Ministry in Jesus Built My HotRod

(Edited by ireallyhadablackout at 3:17 pm on May 28, 2003)

[Organic Revolution]

accually einstien was a socialist.. and he was one of the creaters of the atom bomb

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Einstein the A-bomb creator?!?

Can you give me a link or something, I do know that on the American Atomic programme lotsa commies and left symphatizers worked.

[Organic Revolution]

this is just info i picked up from my history teacher.. she maybe an idiot though

[ireallyhadablackout]

Thanks guys for taking the time to read the post, you have my appreciation.

Riseup, I believe Einstein was one of the members of the Federation of National Scientists which is also known as the Federation of Atomic Scientists and the Federation of American Scientists.

There were many scientists who worked on the atom bombs which took several different forms from its primary conception. Einstein was actually in Long Island when he was contacted for the first time (as far as I know) by two scientists of the names, Szilard and Wigner, in hopes to get support from Einstein to convince the United States to listen to the threat of the newly found energy released by the bombardment of the neutron.

The false perception at the time was this; "Either we build an atom bomb or Hitler will do it first" - Robert Jungk

The entire bomb building operation was based on the the false estimation of the plans and resources of the enemy. *

The same situation occurred with dropping the bomb over Japan, once again decisions were made on false pretenses because the true nature of the situation had not been disclosed.*

*the above statements and thoughts were taken from the book "Brighter than a Thousand Suns"

With that said, I say this in defense of the temperment of scientists whom the author of this fore mentioned book brilliantly stated:

"They, who had been drawn into the storm center of politics , had taken their calling in the first place mainly because they wished to turn their backs upon a chaotic and lawless world. How it happened that men who had tried to find a most comprehensive truth were in the end obliged to spend the best years of their lives in the search for more and more perfect means of destruction?"

There is a really beautiful short lecture mentioned towards the end of this book that I would like to share at another time. As you can see, this book has left me somewhat in a euphoria in which I don't wish to end anytime soon. :smile:

As far as a link to refer to, I can only think of one at the moment and it only has to do with the social movement the scientist formed as a means to educate the public of the instruments of death and that by no means, should ever be used upon mankind.

The link contains a speech given by Leo Szilard. "Are We on the Road to War?"

http://www.dannen.com/szilard.html

I also have a listing of books and articles published by Oppenheimer and Einstein if anyone is interested.

[Organic Revolution]

i am interested in the books will u send them to me

[Vinny Rafarino]

Einstein never actually participated in the making of the A-bomb. (he did give one scientist advice on a theory one time however...but we can hardly call this "working on the programme" ) He did give the bomb it's roots though by publishing the "special" and "general" theories of relativity. (the "special" theory is what the a-bomb was created from). The only other thing he did was sign the letter to FDR urging him to begin an atomic programme before the Germans did. (as blackout previously states) which he would later denounce as a mistake...

"I made one great mistake in my life... when I signed the letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made; but there was some justification- the danger that the Germans would make them." -Albert Einstein November, 1954

It was Oppenheimer and other scientists under his direction that did the actual developmental work on the A-bomb, so Oppenheimer would definately be considered the "father" of the A-bomb. Einstein would be considered the "grandfather" if one had to allot titles.

To keep on the point of this thread I will close by stating that both scientists were indeed socialists.

The fact is, only the smartest of us will embrace socialism because we understand it's concepts. Capitalists have a tendency to get caught it the web of materialism and greed that I personally outgrew a long time ago.

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 12:12 pm on May 30, 2003)

[ireallyhadablackout]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 11:53 am on May 30, 2003


To keep on the point of this thread I will close by stating that both scientists were indeed socialists.

The fact is, only the smartest of us will embrace socialism because we understand it's concepts. Capitalists have a tendency to get caught it the web of materialism and greed that I personally outgrew a long time ago.

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 12:12 pm on May 30, 2003)


I am willing only I am not able to imply that these men should be classified as "socialists" only because they spent a majority of their time doing "science." Maybe I am unclear as to what you are meaning. Yes, I read your signature, and yes, I am still thinking about it.

The point of this topic is to possibly try to identify why industrialization did not prosper in Russia and only in America? Also, to have a better understanding of the scientists social movement and the The Society for Social Responsibility in Science were about.

Doing the "devils work" (as Oppenheimer once quoted) they changed the twentieth century, you know.


(Edited by ireallyhadablackout at 2:05 am on June 1, 2003)

[ireallyhadablackout]

RiseUp, I can arrange to send you the one book I mentioned, only I would have to scan the *pages over to you, there is a copyright on the book against distribution only I don't think this would count, since the book is so old. Just tell me so, and I will.

*(360 5 1/2 X 8 pages).

Here are the titles to the books written by the Anti-Nazi Robert Jungk, originally published in Germany under the following titles:

"Heller als tausend sonnen" (Brighter than a thousand suns, 1958)

"Der kampf der schweiz um die pressefreinheit" (Switzerlands struggle for freedom of the press, 1945)

(Tomorrow is Already Here, 1954)

Books with Einstein Titles:

"Albert Einstein, Creator and Rebel" by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman 1972 - Viking Penquin Inc.

"Geometry of Einstein's Unified Field Theory" Indiana Univeristy Press 1957 - Bloomington.

"Albert Einstein, his Life and Times." by Alfred Knopf 1947 - New York.

Helle Zeit Dunkle Zeit "In Memoriam Albert Einstein" by Carl Selig 1956 - Zurich.

"Albert Einstein, Philosopher-Scientist" by A Schilp 1951 -New York.

Books written by J.R. Oppenheimer:

"Science and the Common Understanding" (New York, 1954)

"The Open Mind" (New York, 1955)

[Vinny Rafarino]

You are way out of your league here.

I know what the point of the thread was. The majority of your original post focused on Oppenheimer. Obviously the majority of the response posts will also be focused on Oppenheimer. If you know anything about Soviet industrialisation you will already know it's origins. It had nothing to do with the Atomic age. Prior to WWII the USSR was already considered a major industrial nation...so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

If you are not sure that Einstein was a socialist then you know nothing about him. Try reading "Why Socialism" by Albert Einstein-1949

Oppenheimer by your own admission was a communist.
I do not even have to comment on this one.

Perhaps you did "really have a black out".

[ireallyhadablackout]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 9:12 am on June 6, 2003


If you know anything about Soviet industrialisation you will already know it's origins. It had nothing to do with the Atomic age. Prior to WWII the USSR was already considered a major industrial nation...so I'm not sure what you are talking about.



Comrade, you know what I said, so I won't repeat it. I am thinking that a person who is a socialist lives in the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic, or at the least practices socialism. If I say that I am a king yet by the looks of me, it is obvious I am not a king, then what am I? A raving lunatic, perhaps?

Oppenheimer, went before an administrative hearing on charges that he may have been a Soviet Agent. Perhaps, he was...

So, are you telling me that the industrialization movement was a success in Russia? Of course, lets blame it on Stalin, the reasons for why socialism failed. The working class people who made the revolution what it was in Russia were defeated, why?

All I am trying to do here, is make the suggestion as to why the socialist-industrialization movement was a failure in Russia, I am not saying this is what happened, yet could have happened. After all, it makes sense.

The Atomic age did in fact influence politics. Just because one is not an advocate of capitalism does not justify the position to be ignorant of the way the system works.

I am not saying I have all the answers, yet...only I suspect the the Russian Revolution was "sold-out".





(Edited by ireallyhadablackout at 11:43 pm on June 10, 2003)

[Vinny Rafarino]

So, are you telling me that the industrialization movement was a success in Russia? Of course, lets blame it on Stalin, the reasons for why socialism failed. The working class people who made the revolution what it was in Russia were defeated, why?

Yes my friend I am. It's simply history and not hidden from public view.

"In order to free labor for industry and to secure food for the swelling urban population Stalin sped up the collectivization of farming. In 1929 there were 25,000,000 small peasant farms, by 1952 these had been transformed into 100,000 large and highly mechanized collective farms."

"The resulting upturn in manufacturing output and national income was something unprecedented in the history of industrialization. Russian manufacturing boomed during the great depression. If one examines the period of the two five year plans of 1928 to 1937 Russian national income rose from 24.4 to 96.3 billion rubles, coal output increased from 35.4 to 128 million tons, steel production from 4 to 17.7 million tons, electricity output rose 700%, machine-tool production rose 20,000% and tractor production (factories that could be easily converted in tank production) rose 40,000%."

"By the late 1930’s, Russia had been last in terms of economic development and output in Europe had pulled off a stunning achievement. In 8 years Russia had become the 2nd largest economy in the world."

"Having driven private consumptions share of the GNP down to levels unmatched in 20th century history, the state was able to deploy over 25% of GNP for industrial investment and still have considerable sums for investments in science, education and the armed forces. Russian society was literally transformed in the period from 1928 to 1940 as the number of population working in agriculture fell from 75% to less than 50%"

Stalin was the reason socialism thrived in the USSR. The foundations for socialism were torn down by his successors. By the mid '70's The USSR was merely a capitalist country hiding uner the guise of communism.

Never in history has their been a greater communist leader than Stalin. Please do not start citing rhetoric about "20 million murders" commited by Stalin as this opinion has never been based in fact and never proven to be true. Quite the contrary actually.

[ireallyhadablackout]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 10:34 am on June 13, 2003
So, are you telling me that the industrialization movement was a success in Russia? Of course, lets blame it on Stalin, the reasons for why socialism failed. The working class people who made the revolution what it was in Russia were defeated, why?

Yes my friend I am. It's simply history and not hidden from public view.

Never in history has their been a greater communist leader than Stalin. Please do not start citing rhetoric about "20 million murders" commited by Stalin as this opinion has never been based in fact and never proven to be true. Quite the contrary actually.

Excellently stated, thank you however, do not believe for one moment that you are off the hook so to speak, I intend on arguing my point...ah hem

As far as your statement of Stalin, you'll get no argument from me now. (maybe later ;)) I am currently reading the latest book of Stalin by the author Dmitri Volkogonov.

It is interesting to note that the author of the book, "Stalin Triumph and Tragedy" reflects a dual opinion of the dictator. The author accuses Stalin of being inferior to just about every revolutionary character in the book thus so far. Only I can see that this is not so and that Stalin merely plays the role of the silent observer which is obviously misinterpreted by the author as a lack of intelligence by Stalin.

Getting back to my point, which I am somewhat prepared to make. Russia operated as a super power should thanks to the demographics and resources of the country, a fact that can not be argued. Don't forget about the Diplomatic Trade agreement established between Russia and the United States in 1933. Then, after the bomb (one was named after Stalin, not sure if it was the one used ) was dropped on Japan came the creation of (oh no!) the United Nations.

Read the "Franck Report" made to the secretary of war on June 1945 declared by seven scientist to get an idea on how the atom bomb affected politics.

Of course, you can not disagree the influence politics plays on economics so with that I say..."something ain't right" and we all know that only the "truth" will allow us to move forward with authority over principalities and the wickedness in the heavenly places. Consider all of the actions super powers have taken in the past based on false premises and one can get the idea of the futureal.

Anyway, you may have spouted some decent statistics, and it sounds logical yet you are missing my point. Who is to say Communism is not interested in "capitalism"? Like Stalin always said, "a party is a mechanized tool for the facilitation of a party's objective which can only be achieved with power." (something to that affect) Now, unless we can come up with something non-party related and still have the power to facilitate a cause that promotes "social justice" which we know can not co-exist with capitalism then...

[ireallyhadablackout]

A passage from the book Brighter than a thousand Suns.

The book reflects Oppenhiemer as the one being the most affected by the demonstration of the first atomic explosion...as it reads:

"Then everything happened faster than it could be understood. No one saw the first flash of the atomic

fire itself. It was only possible to see its dazzling white reflection in the sky and on the hills. Those who then

ventured to turn their heads preceived a bright ball of flame, growing steadily larger and larger. "Good God, I

believe that the long-haired boys have lost control!" a senior officer shouted. Carson Mark, one of the most

brilliant members of the Theoretical Division, actually thought--though his intelligence told him the thing was

impossible--that the ball of fire would never stop growing till it had enveloped all heaven and earth. At

that moment everyone forgot what he had intended to do. Groves writes: "Some of the men in their

excitement, having had three years to get ready for it, at the last minute forgot those welders' helmets and

stumbled out of the cars where they were sitting. They were distinctly blinded for two or three seconds. In

that time they lost the view of what they had been waiting for over three years to see."

People were transfixed with fright at the power of the explosion. Oppenheimer was clinging to one of the

uprights in the control room. A passage from the Bhagavad-Gita, the sacred epic of Hindus, flashed into his mind."

"If the radiance of a thousand suns
were to burst into the sky,
that would be like
the splendor of the Mighty One--"

"Yet when the sinister and gigantic cloud rose up in the far distance over Point Zero, he was reminded of another line from the same source:

"I am become Death, the shatterer of worlds."

[Vinny Rafarino]

I'm not really sure even you know what point you are trying to make friend. You gave opinions on two different topics in your opening post. Both of which I have commented on. You then make a third point which I will again reiterate for you here.

The point of this topic is to possibly try to identify why industrialization did not prosper in Russia and only in America? Also, to have a better understanding of the scientists social movement and the The Society for Social Responsibility in Science were about.

By your own admission, this is "the point of this topic" which I then commented on with my last post. So freind, which point am I missing? I don't believe I have missed any at all so I'm not quite sure why you have stated I have missed your point. I will now quote you from your last post:

Anyway, you may have spouted some decent statistics, and it sounds logical yet you are missing my point.

Referring back to the original quote from your post at the beginning of this response where your "current" point is "to possibly try to identify why industrialization did not prosper in Russia and only in America?" And can be supported with an additional statement from you made in a later post:

All I am trying to do here, is make the suggestion as to why the socialist-industrialization movement was a failure in Russia, I am not saying this is what happened, yet could have happened. After all, it makes sense .

You can see that my post addresses exactly what you were asking for.

Let us move now to your "current point" that has not been addressed hitherto. So please refrain from stating "you have missed my point" as you can clearly see using simple logic that I have missed none.

Getting back to my point, which I am somewhat prepared to make. Russia operated as a super power should thanks to the demographics and resources of the country, a fact that can not be argued. Don't forget about the Diplomatic Trade agreement established between Russia and the United States in 1933. Then, after the bomb (one was named after Stalin, not sure if it was the one used ) was dropped on Japan came the creation of (oh no!) the United Nations.

There were only three nuclear devices made at the time. One was used in the infamous test. The other two were labelled Fat man (Stalin perhaps?) and Little Boy. I always though the names were due to the shape of the bomb casings as I have never heard anyone, until now, say one was named after Stalin. Both were deployed over Japan.

Of course, you can not disagree the influence politics plays on economics so with that I say..."something ain't right" and we all know that only the "truth" will allow us to move forward with authority over principalities and the wickedness in the heavenly places. Consider all of the actions super powers have taken in the past based on false premises and one can get the idea of the futureal.

Why would I disagree? This statement is sound enough.

Let me guess, your follow-up to this response ewill be "I think you have missed my point".

Edit:
Italics

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 7:45 am on June 15, 2003)

[ireallyhadablackout]

There, there. So you are on to me, fair enough.

1943 Russia resumes an atomic development program with the intent to acquire nuclear weapons. By 1956 it was certainly known that the Soviets possessed an atom bomb.

It was then, the American's gave the bomb its name "Joe I" in honor of Joseph Stalin. Yes, one bomb was named the "fatman" the other was named "slimman." Three in all.

What I intent to demonstrate is the future calls for the "creation" of a virtual functional concentrated sphere capable of "market penetration." In other words, REVOLUTION! :biggrin:

[booga]

The Number of the Beast
(Steve Harris)

I left alone, my mind was blank
I needed time to get the memories from my mind
What did I see? Can I believe?
That what I saw last night was real and not just fantasy

Just what I saw, in my old dreams
Were they reflections of my warped mind staring back at me?
‘Cause in my dreams, it’s always there
The evil face that twists my mind and rings me to despair

The night was black, was no use holding back
‘Cause I just had to see, was someone watching me?
In the mist, dark figures move and twist
Was all this for real, or some kind of hell?

666, the number of the beast
Hell and fire was spawned to be released

Torches blazed and sacred chants were praised
As they start to cry, hands held to the sky
In the night, the fires burning bright
The ritual has begun, Satan’s work is done

666, the number of the beast
Sacrifice is going on tonight

This can’t go on, I must inform the law
Can this still be real, or some crazy dream?
But I feel drawn towards the chanting hordes
They seem to mesmerize, can’t avoid their eyes

666, the number of the beast
666, the one for you and me

I’m coming back, I will return
And I’ll possess your body, and I’ll make you burn
I have the fire, I have the force
I have the power to make my evil take its course

The Iron Maiden

[Vinny Rafarino]

There is a song lyric thread in chit chat mate.

[ireallyhadablackout]

"oi" where is your imagination?

So, may I ask what RAF is or stands for?

Do you remember Che in one of his speeches (Tri-Continental???) makes mention of an "artificial" peace, as he was speaking against nuclear weapons of mass destruction? (I will locate the material and give a more precise detail of information)

We speak on revolution and many of us look forward to the day of a radical change here on the earth (not sure what kind of change, only I have an idea) and many of us will be facilitators to this change based on the same "vision" which goes beyond the scope of communism as we know it now and in theory.

I am just thinking that to keep Che's dream alive we must continue to seek out answers that may or may not be so obvious. I know, I am acting out because I am not used to so much attention, only I am serious to think that the answers are out there, its just a matter of identifying existing elements.

I really dig music like its my religion and I can't help to think that the true prophets are in rock bands, becasue as we know, once the idea of "Jesus" came he was named in all likeness after the order of the Priest of the Most High (Melchizadec) (sp?) Therefore, the idea of "Jesus" eliminated the use of the prophets as it was then along with religious traditions. You could almost say he was the "destroyer" because his idea eliminated just about everything people held sacred.

Melchizadec was known as Salem the king of Peace who once ruled in Jerusalem...anyway I will stop here only what I do know is that Melchizadec was the slayer of the rulers and kings who opposed Abraham and his descendents which also took a turn because of the idea of "Jesus" and now, the promise made by God to Abraham was one for the "poor" and this was the fragments of the fields normally owned by the rich and worked by the poor.

Anyway, I know where the music section thread is, I am crazy not dumb. So what is your point again? :biggrin:

[Vinny Rafarino]

Red Army Faction.

[RED FIRE]

You learn something new everyday day dont you.I have always thought that Einstien
was the single handed man behind the A-bomb.