setting up a militia [Archive]

RebeldePorLaPAZ

4th December 2006, 16:31

Unneccesary at this point. Look to the Spanish Civil War for an example. When the time comes, people will organize themselves.

Wouldn't agree with you so much there, but I also wouldn't go as far as calling you a dickhead for your opinion. :lol:

But then you have a good example to back up your side.

My opinion is that not just a militia is needed but an organizational structure is needed too. In other words a political wing and a militant wing working all in one, it's more organized and solid than just a militia.

Example, Hezbollah.

Yeah but that is why I think that it shouldn't just focus on combat. There could be other things like emergency prepairdness. Imagen if there was another event like Katrina, if there was a militia they could help out alot in helping people, whether it be helping provide shelter for people, or food, or medical help.

When Beruit got bombed who was out the very next day clearing up the street and helping their people find shelter and food?

Or even Hamas, they have their people in suits who do the political work and their armed wing to defend it. And this becomes necessary because they take a position in which they do come under very real threats and attacks.

I don't support their ideology, but I do like the way they are functioning and organized. They don't just talk, they do what they say and because of that they have such large support from the people.

And the leftist organizations, why isn't there any in the US for say that has support of the masses? Because we have yet to organize in a structure that talks the talk and walks the walk. The moment we do that and gain support of the people then thats when they will come after us. Why? Because of the position that we are taking. I'm not saying that their aren't non yet, there our some, and this is what we are trying to accomplish with FPM, real action not just a newspaper or a website. But we are small at the moment and yes growing we need more support, but were not going to just ask for support, we are going to go out and prove that your support is worth giving.

Ok, so we have the US communist. The government sure isn't going to be on the side of the communist. Lets take a hypothetical situation.

Lets say the an organization gains this mass support through actions here in the US, the government comes to try to raid our homes or kill our leaders. So do we let them or do we defend ourselves with an armed militant wing? Should we have a militant wing to begin with? Yes, because if not your organizational structure gets killed off.

The position that we are taking goes against the bourgeois structure that the government feeds on. And because of that there are the rich and the very poor. Instead of asking for a vote and saying if you vote for me 'I will' do this we should do this first, if you agree then why not vote for me. Support grows with government pressure/resistance.

When the people support us and not the government a militia is needed because the government will crush you if not.

--Paz

Janus

6th December 2006, 21:12

There's nothing wrong with getting some people together and doing some tactical training. However, much of that is unnecessary at this point and we should not focus on such things until the political conditions really call for it.

Xian

7th December 2006, 01:25

Aren't there any leftist militias in this country right now? :huh:

Janus

7th December 2006, 02:35

Aren't there any leftist militias in this country right now?
Most likely though they're definitely laying very low.

Comrade Marcel

7th December 2006, 03:02

Excuse me for being an ass, but a "militia" usually implies that a force that supports the state, whether officially or without official sanction, usually they exist for the defense of a nation.

Militias would be very useful in places like Venezeula and Cuba; but what leftists need in the imperialist countries are underground guerilla detachments and/or military wings. However, this is hardly the stage where something like that would be successful. Not that I wouldn't applaude the efforts of something that could cause even minor disruption to the imperialist war machine.

A good idea right now is to train self-defense, martial arts and make it apply to the situations you face right now. At some point seek military training (outside of your country), but just remember that when you do you will probably be put on a special list.

La ComÃ©die Noire

7th December 2006, 03:43

Like people have said before, the right "political climate" is needed in order for militias to be useful. However it would be good for us to all have some training and to pass it on to as many other people as possible. But i think for now workers in first world nations need to focus on labour unions more than combat units.

subcal

8th December 2006, 09:36

Now is the time, and an armed militia is the only resistance to what is happening to our 'society' in every way shape and form. Freedoms are being oppressed daily and few realise that the oppertunity to oppose it is slowly fading away.

Stand, struggle and succeed

Fawkes

8th December 2006, 20:53

If you did set up a militia I would recommend laying very low for the time being. You could also set up autonomous affinity groups.

Nothing Human Is Alien

8th December 2006, 21:12

see: The Black Panthers

Fawkes

8th December 2006, 21:16

Who are they? (sense the extreme sarcasm)

Scout Lemar

9th December 2006, 03:38

I agree that we need a militia. The second amendment of the US constitution states that militias can and should be used to overthrow the government if it becomes too powerful and begins to sway away from its original democratic standpoint. With a militia, we would be able to stay united, because alone we are nothing. And if we do construct a leftist militia, we have to strike swiftly because it is quite obvious that imperialism has almost completely overthrown democracy in the world, and the government still continues to pit the people against the leftist revolutionaries.

Forward Union

9th December 2006, 11:19

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 08, 2006 09:12 pm
see: The Black Panthers
That's a good point. And made in only 4 words :lol:

Though I would say that the tactics used in one case do not always work when applied to other objectives. This was the mistake made by activists on the 90s, and their "anti-corporate" campaigns.

I maintain that to set up a militia in the current political context would still be counter productive. The Panthers had more support in Black communities then, that we do in working class ones today.

We need to work on that, before we move onto armed defence of our communities.

Before going on I reccomend that everybody reads This (http://raisethefist.com/racun/sd.html)

freakazoid

11th December 2006, 06:26

I think that we should seriously start setting up one, not in 5 years, not next year, but now! Not just a militant militia, although that is also needed, but one that is designed to help out people in need, like I have suggested earlier and also Love_Underground and RebeldePorLaPAZ gave examples of.

When Beruit got bombed who was out the very next day clearing up the street and helping their people find shelter and food?

Or even Hamas, they have their people in suits who do the political work and their armed wing to defend it. And this becomes necessary because they take a position in which they do come under very real threats and attacks.

I don't support their ideology, but I do like the way they are functioning and organized. They don't just talk, they do what they say and because of that they have such large support from the people.

Yeah but that is why I think that it shouldn't just focus on combat. There could be other things like emergency prepairdness. Imagen if there was another event like Katrina, if there was a militia they could help out alot in helping people, whether it be helping provide shelter for people, or food, or medical help.

There are other things that can be done outside of natural disasters. Winter is here now and many pensioners and the elderly will suffer from the cold. Their pensions are often too small to afford sufficient heating. So they put up with it, and sometimes die.

I think it would be an incredible act of class solidarity, to illegally hook up their houses with free heating, fuck up the gas metre, and sort out the plumbing and electricals with your own expertise.

You would also have to be prepared to defend these places from the state, but I imagine, if publicised properly in the local press, you would get massive public support. Especially if it was near christmas.

Things like that. But we can't just sit here and talk about it we need to take action. We need to actually meet up and do something. Not just be a bunch of armchair revolutionaries! Not just talk about how great the comming revolution will be! Not just talk about the different communist/anarchist theories! But we must take real action in real life now! Now I am not just talking about holding marches and things like that, while they have a purpose but in my opinion they don't really change anything, they don't really get our message into the people who need to learn about it. Shoot, even the libertariens are doing more about what they believe in than we are, http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=59388 If we all did something like that then perhaps people might actually start taking us seriously. I say we do something now before it is to late! Meet up, discuss military tactics, survival, how to give aid to impoverished people, how to help out in the next wheather disaster, things like that. But like I said we need to do it now.

Blue Collar Bohemian

11th December 2006, 08:34

I've thought a lot over the past few months about forming some sort of group that first and for most does community outreach activities, but that also trains with firearms and small combat formation drills. The biggest hurdle I'm seeing is purely in interest.

chimx

11th December 2006, 09:12

i helped to organize a raan affiliated militia once many moons ago (we called it the revolutionary anti-authoritarian defense, aka "raan's raad", which i found very amusing). we got together and shot AKs in the woods, did unarmed self-defense training, and then shot more guns in the woods.

It was pretty fun, but then we all got bored of it after 5 or 6 months. Now I just go shoot guns with friends when we feel like it.

I would encourage it if the purpose is to educate people with firearms, if people need the educating. If it is just an excuse to be all machismo, than whats the point?

Guild-soicalist

11th December 2006, 20:40

As our comrade Che Guevara said:
"Revolution is not a apple that falls when it is ripe,
it must be made to happan"
Action not words!
But what if your in a country with anti-milltia laws?

Honggweilo

11th December 2006, 23:27

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 09:12 am
i helped to organize a raan affiliated militia once many moons ago (we called it the revolutionary anti-authoritarian defense, aka "raan's raad", which i found very amusing). we got together and shot AKs in the woods, did unarmed self-defense training, and then shot more guns in the woods.

It was pretty fun, but then we all got bored of it after 5 or 6 months. Now I just go shoot guns with friends when we feel like it.

I would encourage it if the purpose is to educate people with firearms, if people need the educating. If it is just an excuse to be all machismo, than whats the point?
somehow, as a leninist, i feel very disturbed about the fact than RAAN members carry arms :rolleyes:

But what if your in a country with anti-milltia laws?

Like for example belgium and the netherlands. And here we also have strict anti-gun laws. We also had alot of problems with fascist militia's in the past

chimx

12th December 2006, 06:44

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 11:27 pm
somehow, as a leninist, i feel very disturbed about the fact than RAAN members carry arms :rolleyes:
as you should... as you should....

http://chimx.yardapes.net/misc/hannahak01.jpg
http://chimx.yardapes.net/misc/gunfun04.jpg
http://chimx.yardapes.net/misc/gunfun06.jpg

:lol:

kaaos_af

12th December 2006, 16:33

Well, if you guys are armed now, Aussie RAAN is confident to go and kick over the Bolsheviki stalls in town now and yell 'remember Kronstadt!' :lol:

Rollo

12th December 2006, 16:34

Well, me and my army of myself are confident to fight your petty resistance :D.

chimx

12th December 2006, 17:39

you know what is really fun is that i used to work a job where we had to make napalm and then burn shit. it would be fun to use on some trots some day

Rollo

12th December 2006, 17:48

I agree. But to be honest I have nothing against RAAN/ the DAC, they can do whatever they want aslong as they do it in any direction but mine. Suprisingly I've been reading a lot of books on anarchist theory lately.

chimx

12th December 2006, 17:53

well that makes one of us! ;)

Forward Union

12th December 2006, 18:00

Combat 18 firearm training (http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DUhBzyip4Q9c)

Nachie

12th December 2006, 19:08

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2006 04:33 pm
Well, if you guys are armed now, Aussie RAAN is confident to go and kick over the Bolsheviki stalls in town now and yell 'remember Kronstadt!' :lol:
haha if there are indeed Bolsheviki stalls in town, please do! It would make a great addition to the history page (http://www.redanarchist.org/history/index.html).

Rollo

12th December 2006, 19:13

Good luck getting fire arms in Australia tho. I might reccomend a more legal alternative, but I don't want to.

Honggweilo

12th December 2006, 19:50

Originally posted by chimx+December 12, 2006 06:44 am--> (chimx @ December 12, 2006 06:44 am)
[email protected] 11, 2006 11:27 pm
somehow, as a leninist, i feel very disturbed about the fact than RAAN members carry arms :rolleyes:
as you should... as you should....

http://chimx.yardapes.net/misc/hannahak01.jpg
http://chimx.yardapes.net/misc/gunfun04.jpg
http://chimx.yardapes.net/misc/gunfun06.jpg

:lol: [/b]
OMFG, its the RAAN annual Chicks with Guns calendar preview! :lol:

Good luck getting fire arms in Australia tho. I might reccomend a more legal alternative, but I don't want to.

Airsoft :wub: , but those are still illegal in the Netherlands <_<. but we still have belgium :)

An archist

12th December 2006, 19:57

hehe, if Spelev sees these pictures, he's gonna want to start a RAAN section even more.

Rollo

12th December 2006, 20:00

Airsoft is illegal here. Sorry pal.

An archist

12th December 2006, 20:10

Yeah, but when you legalise weapons in Belgium, there's gonna be even more nazis shooting people in the street :angry:

chimx

12th December 2006, 20:56

and even more people shooting back.

Boriznov

12th December 2006, 21:17

that could be the start of a massacre innocent people

how are you going to win if you're with an unorganized group fighting against the underground militia of Vlaams Belang. Ofcourse they can form there own militia because they're politicians and they can hide the facts, you as citizen and lowest class can't. Too many snitches amongst our ignorant neighbourhood

Fawkes

12th December 2006, 21:46

Originally posted by ddxt301+December 11, 2006 06:27 pm--> (ddxt301 @ December 11, 2006 06:27 pm)
[email protected] 11, 2006 09:12 am
i helped to organize a raan affiliated militia once many moons ago (we called it the revolutionary anti-authoritarian defense, aka "raan's raad", which i found very amusing). we got together and shot AKs in the woods, did unarmed self-defense training, and then shot more guns in the woods.

It was pretty fun, but then we all got bored of it after 5 or 6 months. Now I just go shoot guns with friends when we feel like it.

I would encourage it if the purpose is to educate people with firearms, if people need the educating. If it is just an excuse to be all machismo, than whats the point?
somehow, as a leninist, i feel very disturbed about the fact than RAAN members carry arms :rolleyes:

But what if your in a country with anti-milltia laws?

Like for example belgium and the netherlands. And here we also have strict anti-gun laws. We also had alot of problems with fascist militia's in the past [/b]
I don't know if you're serious or not, but, regardless of how sectarian people may think I am because of some posts that I have made (i.e. Stalinist in OI), I think we all share a greater enemy and I would never even think of even getting into a fight with another leftist over politics, let alone shooting them.

P.S. I know you were being sarcastic, but I think there was a hint of truth in your statement.

chimx

12th December 2006, 22:16

or maybe it was truth with a hint of sarcasm.

Fawkes

12th December 2006, 22:31

Regardless of how much sarcasm and/or truth was intended, I stick with my prior post.

chimx

12th December 2006, 22:42

well then let me reply to your prior post by first quoting:

I would never even think of even getting into a fight with another leftist over politics, let alone shooting them.

and then saying: they started it.

chimx

12th December 2006, 22:50

Originally posted by Love [email protected] 12, 2006 06:00 pm
Combat 18 firearm training (http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DUhBzyip4Q9c)
those guys need to take some gun safety lessons. they should always point your gun straight up into the air, or even better, pointed straight towards the ground. never at someone, even their legs. that firing in a line thing looked dangerous too. firing standing up like that is also a good way to not hit your target, as it places a lot of weight on your forward arm, resulting in a wobbling gun. get into a prone position if you actually care about shooting stuff.

the last person who was firing an AK was trying to do a special type of hip shot to mimic a fully auto weapon with a semi-auto receiver, but was kind of failing. to do it, you have to put the AK at your side, lock the elbow of your forward arm, and keep pressure on it, pushing the gun forward. then pull the trigger with your rear arm. the kick back of the gun will snap against your forward arm's tension, forcing the gun quickly forward again, which will then make your rear hand pull the trigger. it makes for very fast, but very inaccurate shooting.

Fawkes

12th December 2006, 22:51

Edit: I wouldn't never attack another Leftist without provocation.

chimx

12th December 2006, 22:56

zomg, a double negative. that means you would attack without provocation! welcome to the club!

ahab

12th December 2006, 23:06

I think militia's are a great idea, set them up world wide, train them, keep them secret then when the time comes, have them all start fighting at once in every city in the world! now that would be tight. I got military experience, If I had the funds I would start a little training camp.

Fawkes

12th December 2006, 23:20

Allow me to re-phrase that, I wouldn't ever.

Fawkes

12th December 2006, 23:22

those guys need to take some gun safety lessons. they should always point your gun straight up into the air, or even better, pointed straight towards the ground. never at someone, even their legs

What are you talking about, they should point their guns at their and each others heads.

Blue Collar Bohemian

13th December 2006, 05:37

I find myself pouring over Wikipedia and other sites late at night, devouring articles on military theory and organization as well as pages detailing various arms and vehicles. I feel an ever growing need to form some sort of organized unit that will be able to defend the people from any threat.

Rollo

13th December 2006, 05:44

I feel the need to form some kind of revolutionary party ( vanguard if you will ).

Dimentio

13th December 2006, 15:03

I feel some need to bash at people who are talking about forming militias. There is a profound reason why most militias in the US are right-wing. These militias are like German frei-korps during the 20;s, semi-supported or at least overlooked by the politicians and the police. They are a reactionary force.

The US left-wing militias were squashed during the 70;s. BPP comes into my mind.

Sadena Meti

13th December 2006, 17:06

Militas is the wrong concept, or at least the wrong word. Yes, we need to start building a pool of talent: armed and skilled. Not centralized, but grouping occasionally to share knowledge.

The concept of "cells" is a bit more accurate as far as what the left needs. Cells, not Militias.

And of course, you know what the powers that be will call us.

Rollo

13th December 2006, 17:10

I agree with rev-stoic. We need a political vanguard consisting of full time revolutionaries working to raise revolutionary consciouscness.

ahab

13th December 2006, 19:01

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 05:10 pm
I agree with rev-stoic. We need a political vanguard consisting of full time revolutionaries working to raise revolutionary consciouscness.
ok then what are we waiting for lets do it! If we set up 'cells' in each of our cities and report to eachother and share training idea's I think this could really work

Sadena Meti

13th December 2006, 19:38

Well, first of all it is winter here. I barely get out to the range once a month.

But when spring comes. But if there are people in the midwest that are interested.

Also planning a week camping trip down to the Arkansas wilderness.

Delirium

13th December 2006, 19:49

Originally posted by rev-[email protected] 13, 2006 12:06 pm
Militas is the wrong concept, or at least the wrong word. Yes, we need to start building a pool of talent: armed and skilled. Not centralized, but grouping occasionally to share knowledge.

The concept of "cells" is a bit more accurate as far as what the left needs. Cells, not Militias.

And of course, you know what the powers that be will call us.
You just need groups of people getting together and start building confidence and sharing skills. It doesn't even have to start out big, maybe just some capture the flag. Once you build confidence you could do bigger things that confront the issues in your area. Just make sure the people you plan any action with are trustable.

Dimentio

13th December 2006, 20:14

The left in the USA really must start to appeal to the country population. The cities are really not enough, especially not if they are surrounded by hostile territory.

OneBrickOneVoice

13th December 2006, 21:23

A militia should definately be formed among communists, but it needs too have a good amount of people supporting it. This means that the time to start a militia will be when the communist party has half a million or a million members (total of all parties). This way it isn't just a couple of guys with guns.

subcal

13th December 2006, 22:45

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 09:23 pm
.....This way it isn't just a couple of guys with guns......
Bla what rot!!!

You only have to spend five minutes in a logical state to understand that rogue seperatists can achieve more in small numbers then ANY open orginisation.

:ph34r: The more discreet the better, this thread should be binned the second it gets out of hand....

Honggweilo

14th December 2006, 10:02

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 08:14 pm
The left in the USA really must start to appeal to the country population. The cities are really not enough, especially not if they are surrounded by hostile territory.
I agree, and forming an armed sectarian militia at this moment only alienates yourselves from the masses. masses of guns a useless without masses of people. You can shoot bark in the woods like cowboy billy-bob or you could wait and first and gain mass support by grassroot programs and really "arm the homeless", hence really making a difference.

Wanted Man

14th December 2006, 14:25

It's easy enough to talk about this shit in the US right now, where you can go out into the woods to shoot some rifles quite easily, but as soon as you actually become a threat to the bourgeoisie, you'll get yourself arrested for terrorism and your weapons confiscated before you can say "second amendment". Oh, and if the situation is really dire, those Combat 18 guys might help the state in flushing you out(unless you're RAAN, then they'll probably like having some assistance in fighting the Bolshevist Hordes), provided that by then they know how to shoot better than in that video.

In other countries, it's... "not so easy", to say the least. If you're caught while playing your "leftist militia" games with AKs and M16s in the woods here, you'll be in some serious shit because, more often than not, you'd have gotten your hands on those guns by illegal means. Even if the likes of Combat 18 do the same thing, the state might be more tolerant of them when the possibility of a "leftist militia" existing becomes actually existing.

So if you get in trouble, the result is ~20 moronic wannabe revolutionary kids locked up for terrorism, armed fascists being tolerated or even assisted, and more strict, openly anti-leftist anti-terror laws. In other words, let it go, this isn't the climate to start a people's army in, especially not in countries with strict gun control(and the US can become one of those as soon as you pose a threat). That said, working out, learning martial arts and learning how to shoot for when the time is right, is always a good idea.

Honggweilo

14th December 2006, 16:37

I couldnt put it any better WWSD

Even if the likes of Combat 18 do the same thing, the state might be more tolerant of them when the possibility of a "leftist militia" existing becomes actually existing.
That reminds me, the majority of armstrade in the U.S in done by NRA supporters, neo-cons and even fascists. Arent there alot of reports of fascist sympatizing armsdealers at gunshows handing out free copies of the Turner Diaries after a gun purchase? I don't know where the hell the RAAN'ies got those weapons, but im pretty sure you stuffed they cash into fascists movements like Aryan Nations and the Russian Maffia :blink: :ph34r:

And some are willing to blaim the FARC for supporting drug traficing :lol:

chimx

14th December 2006, 18:16

Don't try to slander RAAN just cause you don't know anything about guns. If you have ever been to a gun show there are a lot of right wing nut balls that will jump on the chance to sell you Nazi memorabilia, sure. but i ain't ever bought something from a gun show.

I bought my shotgun at a gunstore in town. That pistol is my friends and I was with him when he bought it at a gun store. Hannah bought that AK from a gun store. Gun shows, on the other hand, are only good if you want to waste money on over priced weaponry. But, in Montana you don't have to register your firearms. You just walk into the store with a couple hundred bucks and walk out with a gun 10 minutes later. If you live in a state where you need to avoid registration, a gun show may be your best bet.... or even better, a gun auction website. i suggest either of these:

www.gunbroker.com
www.auctionarms.com

Springmeester

15th December 2006, 07:27

Some people think the stuggle is something romantic, swinging your gun around fighting for freedom. If you feel like this and this is what you are looking for I suggest you sign up for the FARC, DFLP, EZLN, NPA or Sendero Luminoso.... but you'll quickly find there's little romanticism in it.

Sadena Meti

15th December 2006, 14:42

FYI, every firearm purchase through a liscensed gun store in the USA results in paperwork that is kept for twenty years. Guns store has to perform serial traces on request from any law enforcement, no warrant required. And any law enforcement can walk in and inspect the records even without a trace request, no warrant required.

Cash-and-carry private sales no-id are the best way to go. Learn basic gunsmithing skills and you can make a killing at most gun shows. Spent $175 on an auto-shotgun that I've mod-ed up to a resale value of $1000, not that I'll sell it.

Prices at guns shows are very fair, because firearms hold their value, and it is very easy to check the price. No chance of selling at inflated prices because for the most part they are dealing with informed buyers.

Also, there are far more libetarians at guns shows than fascists. At least, at the midwest gun shows, where there is a thriving hunting industry.

Going to another one this weekend in fact... it's an addiciton, I need help :)

Honggweilo

15th December 2006, 15:15

Don't try to slander RAAN just cause you don't know anything about guns What the hell makes you think that? I would argue it, but i'm not an idiot that places pictures of myself slinging a rifle around on public forums. Then again im not slandering RAAN. Just you and you're private "militia"

the chimx mentality
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/Chen_Chao/Fighter.gif

Going to another one this weekend in fact... it's an addiciton, I need help Atleast for you its a hobby, not for some sectarian private militia made up by angry teenagers. I'm not against preperation for armed struggle, but for mass movements and revolutionary situations. Like some comrades from Russia get weapons traning to prepare themselves against armed attacks from neo-fascists movements and corrupt police who have fascist sympathies.

Some people think the stuggle is something romantic, swinging your gun around fighting for freedom. If you feel like this and this is what you are looking for I suggest you sign up for the FARC, DFLP, EZLN, NPA or Sendero Luminoso.... but you'll quickly find there's little romanticism in it.
How true that, don't forget the ELN, PKK, Various Russian komsomols, NDF and CPN(m), maybe they should recruit some RAAN militia members from montana to let them face reality

Springmeester

15th December 2006, 16:26

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 03:15 pm

Some people think the stuggle is something romantic, swinging your gun around fighting for freedom. If you feel like this and this is what you are looking for I suggest you sign up for the FARC, DFLP, EZLN, NPA or Sendero Luminoso.... but you'll quickly find there's little romanticism in it.
How true that, don't forget the ELN, PKK, Various Russian komsomols, NDF and CPN(m), maybe they should recruit some RAAN militia members from montana to let them face reality
The NPA is the military branch of the NDF ;)
But what do you mean by 'various russian komsomols' I would like more info on that.

Don't try to slander RAAN just cause you don't know anything about guns.

Sounds to me like you're trying to tell us that RAAN has got armed militia, if so I would say you are full of shit. So correct me if I'm wrong. :) Then again... RAAN is advising her youth-members to 'drop-out' seems to me like a childish organisation. Ah hell... smith 'n wesson, toys 'r us.... what's the difference?

Wanted Man

15th December 2006, 23:38

Janus

16th December 2006, 01:44

Some of you really need to cool it with the sectarian baiting.

Springmeester

16th December 2006, 09:02

Originally posted by WWSD+December 15, 2006 11:38 pm--> (WWSD @ December 15, 2006 11:38 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2006 06:44 am

[email protected] 11, 2006 11:27 pm
somehow, as a leninist, i feel very disturbed about the fact than RAAN members carry arms :rolleyes:
as you should... as you should....

http://chimx.yardapes.net/misc/hannahak01.jpg
http://chimx.yardapes.net/misc/gunfun04.jpg
http://chimx.yardapes.net/misc/gunfun06.jpg

:lol:
I'd hit it. And not with a gun, either. [/b]
Did I miss something?

Sadena Meti

17th December 2006, 01:09

Chicks with guns are universally hot.

Plus... short auburn hair, tight jeans... excuse me, I need a moment.

chimx

17th December 2006, 01:18

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 04:26 pm

Don't try to slander RAAN just cause you don't know anything about guns.

Sounds to me like you're trying to tell us that RAAN has got armed militia, if so I would say you are full of shit. So correct me if I'm wrong. :) Then again... RAAN is advising her youth-members to 'drop-out' seems to me like a childish organisation. Ah hell... smith 'n wesson, toys 'r us.... what's the difference?
Then it sounds to me that you didn't even read what i wrote. I said some raan affiliates at one time got together and practiced shooting, unarmed self defense, and gave other workshops for eachother. we called it the "raad" militia. we eventually disbanded when we ran out of things to teach eachother.

we all still own our guns, but we are from montana. when i was in middle school they taught us how to shoot bolt action .22 rifles in the basement. the school had its own shooting range. there are more guns than people in montana. just because you are ignorant of my state's culture, my organization, and my own personal beliefs, does not give you the right to make slanderous accusations.

raan is far more broader than the "drop out" pamphlet produced by an individual affiliated with raan, and we embrace a wide variety of individuals with a wide variety of beliefs. i personally am in my mid twenties, have a BA in history, and plan on going to grad school in a year or two. so fuck you.

chimx

17th December 2006, 01:24

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 11:38 pm
I'd hit it. And not with a gun, either.
there is a time and a place for making comments like that. but using comments like that to derail a politically legitimate conversation is completely uncalled for and down right insulting. please take your machismo attitude elsewhere.

Springmeester

17th December 2006, 08:06

raan is far more broader than the "drop out" pamphlet produced by an individual affiliated with raan, and we embrace a wide variety of individuals with a wide variety of beliefs. i personally am in my mid twenties, have a BA in history, and plan on going to grad school in a year or two. so fuck you.

Hey come on comrade, don't get emotional. I just think that when a political organisation advices its youth members to drop out that it is not a smart organisation. On top of that it isn't just one member with one idea because this is still on your website:

NETWORK PROJECTS

Get Free - Drop Out! / Youth Liberation Front
We were sick of having our lives organized by teachers, psychiatrists, parents, cops, and advertisements, so we dropped out of school and began to take our lives back. We found that we were not alone... that youth all over the world are rising up against alienating institutions and personal relationships. from the streets of Seattle to the squats of Berlin; from the mountains of Peru to the hills of Appalachia; in schools, psych wards, and jails an insurrection is spreading...

Contact: [email protected]
Web: http://www.getfreedropout.tk

One more thing. If you organize a militia and start to practice in the woods or the dessert or whatever.... you really shouldn't announce it on the internet.... it's like calling the CIA HQ to tell them what you are doing.

chimx

17th December 2006, 17:58

we didn't do anything illegal. all our guns are legit. like i said, we stopped doing it as a "militia" cause we got bored of it. now we just all go out shooting when we feel like it.

OneBrickOneVoice

17th December 2006, 20:16

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2006 05:58 pm
we didn't do anything illegal. all our guns are legit. like i said, we stopped doing it as a "militia" cause we got bored of it. now we just all go out shooting when we feel like it.
:lol: if I didn't know better, I'd say this is the perfect description of the anarchist revolution; At first we tried that organization thing, but now we just run around with guns and see what happens

Forward Union

17th December 2006, 21:02

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2006 08:16 pm
:lol: if I didn't know better, I'd say this is the perfect description of the anarchist revolution; At first we tried that organization thing, but now we just run around with guns and see what happens
This is irrelevant and useless to the discussion.

This forum is for practical discussion, and as the moderator I would like to keep it productive.

Keep your petty ideological squabbling out, or get out.

Springmeester

17th December 2006, 21:55

Originally posted by Love Underground+December 17, 2006 09:02 pm--> (Love Underground @ December 17, 2006 09:02 pm)
[email protected] 17, 2006 08:16 pm
:lol: if I didn't know better, I'd say this is the perfect description of the anarchist revolution; At first we tried that organization thing, but now we just run around with guns and see what happens
This is irrelevant and useless to the discussion.

This forum is for practical discussion, and as the moderator I would like to keep it productive.

Keep your petty ideological squabbling out, or get out. [/b]
you are not really saying anything 'practical' about the topic either Underground... :lol: and I think henry was pretty funny. not correct, but funny.

Forward Union

18th December 2006, 13:49

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2006 09:55 pm
you are not really saying anything 'practical' about the topic either Underground...
Well I have contributed. But I was happy to let everyone else discuss it, as it didn't particularly interest me. It's still my duty to keep the discussions on track, so please resume. ;) ;)

Guild-soicalist

18th December 2006, 14:25

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+December 17, 2006 08:16 pm--> (LeftyHenry @ December 17, 2006 08:16 pm)
[email protected] 17, 2006 05:58 pm
we didn't do anything illegal. all our guns are legit. like i said, we stopped doing it as a "militia" cause we got bored of it. now we just all go out shooting when we feel like it.
:lol: if I didn't know better, I'd say this is the perfect description of the anarchist revolution; At first we tried that organization thing, but now we just run around with guns and see what happens [/b]
LOL! Anarchists are silly.

An archist

18th December 2006, 16:19

yeah, knowing how to use a gun is sooo pointless for a revolution. :rolleyes:

Springmeester

18th December 2006, 16:28

Originally posted by An [email protected] 18, 2006 04:19 pm
yeah, knowing how to use a gun is sooo pointless for a revolution. :rolleyes:
true... APPO will tell you about that. :(
but let's be fair. the time isn't right for armed militia in north america. or does someone disagree on that point? :P

EnragÃ©

18th December 2006, 17:08

meh
i dont think there is any harm in having one actually
though actually doing something more than training with it
well
that'd be dumb.

although you might go further down south and help the zapatistas or the oaxacans if they call upon you :P

Whitten

18th December 2006, 17:55

Militias would be useful for training and organisation. Plus you never know when they may come in handy for some low-profile sub-legal direct action.

freakazoid

18th December 2006, 18:37

One more thing. If you organize a militia and start to practice in the woods or the dessert or whatever.... you really shouldn't announce it on the internet.... it's like calling the CIA HQ to tell them what you are doing

militias are not illegal, at least here in the US. Although I think that most of the population looks down on them sadly.

true... APPO will tell you about that.
but let's be fair. the time isn't right for armed militia in north america. or does someone disagree on that point?

Actually the ime is right for one. If we don't organise now then we won't be organised when it is time for a militia to take action. Unless you mean that it isn't time for an armed militia to take action against the government then no, because for a successfull revolution you need the support of the people and thats why I said that we shouldn't just focus on military things, but also in helping people.

Also planning a week camping trip down to the Arkansas wilderness.

You live in Arkansas? I live close to Arkansas, perhaps we should go hiking some time.

Also to all of those interested and who don’t mind driving or flying to it, there were people from Germany, Canada, Scotland, and probably many other countries there. On April 13 – 15 near West Point Kentucky, which is also really close to Fort Knox, there is an event held twice a year called the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot, http://www.knobcreekrange.com/shootinfo.htm I went to the last one in October and I had a blast, pun intended :D . Perhaps we should all meet there and talk in real life, sure beats talking over the internet. Nothing like discussing politics and shooting full-auto guns.

Wanted Man

18th December 2006, 19:58

Originally posted by chimx+December 17, 2006 01:24 am--> (chimx @ December 17, 2006 01:24 am) there is a time and a place for making comments like that. but using comments like that to derail a politically legitimate conversation is completely uncalled for and down right insulting. please take your machismo attitude elsewhere. [/b]
Oh dear. I guess at a time like this, I should just be glad that I don't live in Modesto and own a men's club, or some drunken asshole might break my window, kick my door in and spray a circle-a somewhere. :lol:

GS
LOL! Anarchists are silly.
I usually don't make it my policy to defend them, but I'm not sure if you should be laughing. Judging by your sig, I guess the "RAANistas" should move to the UK and vote for RESPECT. :lol:

chimx

18th December 2006, 22:23

Oh dear. I guess at a time like this, I should just be glad that I don't live in Modesto and own a men's club, or some drunken asshole might break my window, kick my door in and spray a circle-a somewhere. laugh.gif

yeah, you probably should.

Fawkes

18th December 2006, 22:31

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+December 17, 2006 03:16 pm--> (LeftyHenry @ December 17, 2006 03:16 pm)
[email protected] 17, 2006 05:58 pm
we didn't do anything illegal. all our guns are legit. like i said, we stopped doing it as a "militia" cause we got bored of it. now we just all go out shooting when we feel like it.
:lol: if I didn't know better, I'd say this is the perfect description of the anarchist revolution; At first we tried that organization thing, but now we just run around with guns and see what happens [/b]
I know Love Underground already said it, but shut the fuck up with all your sectarian bullshit.

ahab

19th December 2006, 05:23

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2006 08:06 am
One more thing. If you organize a militia and start to practice in the woods or the dessert or whatever.... you really shouldn't announce it on the internet.... it's like calling the CIA HQ to tell them what you are doing.
Well actually there are a group of people here in Utah that I train with, some affiliates of RAAN, others are just crazy muthafuckers, who I dont even kno if they are political but they are all aboutoverthrowing the government, anyway, we go up to the ranges and out in the woods and do all kinds of hand to hand training and weapons training, and they are really aiming for building an 'army' per se. And anouncing it on the internet is NOT like calling the CIA HQ, first of all, all things said on the internet can be denied and you could just say you were making it up, secondly the CIA deals in international shit, rarely does it deal with domestic 'terrorism' that is the FBI's job, believe me they've stopped by to give me visits before, and thirdly if there is some kid of militia or armed force being created it is only a matter of time before they find out anyway, in which case they usually observe quietly until they build a case and take you in.

chimx

19th December 2006, 05:57

yeah, just don't illegal shit. and if you do, use your brain about it.

Springmeester

19th December 2006, 11:08

militias are not illegal, at least here in the US. Although I think that most of the population looks down on them sadly.

No they are not illegal, but don't you think a militia wich holds ideas of violently overthrowing the government and destroying the system would catch the attention of the CIA? Naaah. probably not. Class stuggle in Sesamestreet right? :wacko:

Actually the ime is right for one. If we don't organise now then we won't be organised when it is time for a militia to take action. Unless you mean that it isn't time for an armed militia to take action against the government then no, because for a successfull revolution you need the support of the people and thats why I said that we shouldn't just focus on military things, but also in helping people.

This is also real crap. You don't have the support of the masses, so go right ahead: organise a militia... go and shoot cans in the forrest and pretend revolutionary there is just one problem: it won't get you ANYWHERE.

groundinghubris

19th December 2006, 15:11

If the time is not now, then when? Think militias are not illegal now? Better get informed on all the new NSA bills that have been passed or re-enacted from the civil war.

Has anyone read or even know about the bill passed HR6166? Military Commison determines who may be considered a terrorist and detained without any judicial rights.

1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT- (A) The term `unlawful enemy combatant' means :
(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.

(B) CO-BELLIGERENT- In this paragraph, the term `co-belligerent', with respect to the United States, means any State or armed force joining and directly engaged with the United States in hostilities or directly supporting hostilities against a common enemy.

There over 800 prison camps in the United States, all fully operational and
ready to receive prisoners. They are all staffed and even surrounded by
full-time guards, but they are all empty. These camps are to be operated by
FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) should Martial Law need to be
implemented in the United States and all it would take is a presidential
signature on a proclamation and the attorney general's signature on a
warrant to which a list of names is attached.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990
allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control
of highways and seaports.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995
allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997
allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum,
fuels and minerals.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998
allows the government to seize all means of transportation, including
personal cars, trucks or vehicles of any kind and total control over all
highways, seaports, and waterways.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10999
allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000
allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under
government supervision.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001
allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare
functions.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002
designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all
persons.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003
allows the government to take over all airports and
aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004
allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate
communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be
abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005
allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public
storage facilities.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051
specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives
authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased
international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310
grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out
in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial
and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and
correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049
assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and
agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen
year period.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921
allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to
establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of
energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S.
financial institution in any undefined national emergency.
It also provides
that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress
cannot review the action for six months. The Federal Emergency Management
Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation. General Frank
Salzedo, chief of FEMA's Civil Security Division stated in a 1983
conference that he saw FEMA's role as a "new frontier in the protection of
individual and governmental leaders from assassination, and of civil and
military installations from sabotage and/or attack, as well as prevention
of dissident groups from gaining access to U.S. opinion, or a global
audience in times of crisis."

A few years back phone companies where required to put in place wiretapping devices within their systems, to refuse was to be fined 10,000 dollars a day, so of course the access is there for government use at anytime.

In the name of security, NSA has computers which monitor all internet activity searching for keywords and throwing flags if they appear. Gmail not only saves copies of all your mail sent but also received, no telling how many other email services do the same. They are open for government at anytime without your knowledge.

Of course, any device using satellites such as cell phones are and have been long before 9-11 computer monitored. Just as with internet, computers have long scanned all cell conversations looking for keywords and terms sending red flags to operators to eavesdrop.

Every notice just how many public video cameras there are? Yes they are great for going law enforcement needed information on crimes, but they are also good for tracking vehicle movements, foot traffic, allowing "someone" a person's daily schedule.

How about the gps trackers. Great idea for those of use who can't read maps, but also again great for government tracking. They use satellites. Both in vehicles and cell phones. New cell phones do not need to be in use only one for them to be able to track.

Even the use of spiders and cookies on the internet give companies our private information from shopping habits to reading choices. Pants to shoe sizes. Travel plans, favorite places to go or dream of going. Anything a company has the government has or can easily get.

None of our lives are private any longer. And the government has the right without warrant or your knowledge to access that information at anytime.

Anyone notice a trend here? If we don't do something soon it will be too late to do anything.

The reason I joined this forum is to try to locate people who are tired of talking while we are being set up.

freakazoid

20th December 2006, 04:14

No they are not illegal, but don't you think a militia wich holds ideas of violently overthrowing the government and destroying the system would catch the attention of the CIA? Naaah. probably not. Class stuggle in Sesamestreet right?

Obviously but that doesn't mean that they can do anything about it... yet. You do know that there are militias out there right now, even Nazi ones.

This is also real crap. You don't have the support of the masses, so go right ahead: organise a militia... go and shoot cans in the forrest and pretend revolutionary there is just one problem: it won't get you ANYWHERE.

If you don't do things to help people then why do you think that they will support us? Like I said before, which you seem to keep ignoring, the militia wouldn't just focus on military tactics and "shooting cans in the forest and pretend revolution", it would also focus on helping people in need and also military things.

If you truly want to see a communist or anarchist revolution then you have to take steps to see that it happens, not just talk about how great it would be.

groundinghubris - I have heard about some of those but I didn't know about all of them.

The reason I joined this forum is to try to locate people who are tired of talking while we are being set up.

Then I think that you have come to the right place, for not everyone thinks like Shift, but there are others who think that it is time to do something. That is why I think that we should get together and discuss these things.

groundinghubris

20th December 2006, 05:14

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2006 04:14 am

groundinghubris - I have heard about some of those but I didn't know about all of them.

The reason I joined this forum is to try to locate people who are tired of talking while we are being set up.

Then I think that you have come to the right place, for not everyone thinks like Shift, but there are others who think that it is time to do something. That is why I think that we should get together and discuss these things.
So glad to finally find someone who agrees that now is the time to do something. We really need to organize, plan, and get active.
If you start reading the bills being passed and sit back and really take a look around at how we are allowing ourselves to be monitered and tracked--all in the name of safety, it is very frightening. We no longer control our government, it controls us.
Time to march to the white house and evict the criminals, each and everyone. They are there by invite only, time to uninvite them.
start dismantling systems of survillence, federal police organizations, return the media to the people.

just a thought.

freakazoid

20th December 2006, 05:44

I just found out about this, http://www.lib.unc.edu/mss/inv/htm/04630.html Here is a sentence taken out of it,
On 3 November 1979, members of the Ku Klux Klan and Nazi Party attacked Communist Workers Party (CWP) demonstrators as they gathered for a public march in Greensboro, N.C. Five CWP members were killed and eleven others were injured. also
Newspaper accounts revealed that Klansman Ed Dawson, who had organized and led the Klan on 3 November 1979, was a paid Greensboro police informant and past FBI informant. In another investigation, a Greensboro newspaper discovered that Bernard Butkovich, an undercover agent of the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF), had infiltrated the Nazi unit involved in the attack. Butkovich participated in a pre-attack planning meeting and encouraged at least one Nazi to bring guns to Greensboro.

Here is another link, http://www.ictj.org/static/GTRC.FinalRepor...equence.eng.pdf (http://www.ictj.org/static/GTRC.FinalReport/09.1979.sequence.eng.pdf)

[sarcasm] Yeah we don't need a militia at all. [/sarcam] <_<

Sadena Meti

20th December 2006, 13:33

There was a thread a few months ago that also discussed many ideas along these lines, and generated a lot of useful ideas.

Revolutionary Training Camps (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=54037)

Worth reading, though eventually the discussion became a bit too advanced, and it was locked.

Springmeester

20th December 2006, 15:28

If you don't do things to help people then why do you think that they will support us? Like I said before, which you seem to keep ignoring, the militia wouldn't just focus on military tactics and "shooting cans in the forest and pretend revolution", it would also focus on helping people in need and also military things.

If you truly want to see a communist or anarchist revolution then you have to take steps to see that it happens, not just talk about how great it would be.

groundinghubris - I have heard about some of those but I didn't know about all of them.

Listen comrade, this is the very same mistake the RAF made in Germany. Through the urban-guerilla they thought they would get the support of the masses. That's bullshit. You don't get the support of the masses by walking around with guns, blowing up cars and kidnapping people (even if they ARE in fact class enemy's). You get respect by showing your skills, not your mussles. If you want a revolution, comrade, you have to have the support of the masses, if you want the support of the masses you have to fight their battle, not your own private war.

Forward Union

20th December 2006, 17:10

Originally posted by freakazoid
it would also focus on helping people in need and also military things.

This is a concerning thing to hear you say, but I will ellaborate...

If you truly want to see a communist or anarchist revolution then you have to take steps to see that it happen

Bingo.

You have suggested, military action, in a time of perceived peace, and minimal class struggle. In other words, you propose a surrealist rampage, destined to alienate all of contemporary society, attracting pelanty of Charles mansons and Timothy Mcveigh's, im sure.

Armed action is not always useful. And is an utterly bad idea in today's political climate (within the post-industrial west)

I do however agree, that a certain level of training is useful. And appreciate that in certain contexts, even today, planting a bomb or using a weapon can be useful. But it is a very delicate scenario. And the comments coming from the pro-millitia camp do not show an understanding of that fact.

However, history has shown that over-millitancy in these climates is self-destructive. Just ask the ex-members of Weather-underground. Earlier you mentioned a process of "steps" to be taken toward a communist revolution, I agree, but think you might be jumping the gun a little.

freakazoid

20th December 2006, 21:39

Listen comrade, this is the very same mistake the RAF made in Germany. Through the urban-guerilla they thought they would get the support of the masses. That's bullshit. You don't get the support of the masses by walking around with guns, blowing up cars and kidnapping people (even if they ARE in fact class enemy's). You get respect by showing your skills, not your mussles. If you want a revolution, comrade, you have to have the support of the masses, if you want the support of the masses you have to fight their battle, not your own private war.

When did I say that we should go around shooting? The military training is only for when the time for violent action is needed, NOT so we can just go out and shoot up the place which you seem to think no matter how many times I have said otherwise. I don't understand why you keep on missing that point.

You have suggested, military action, in a time of perceived peace

No. The military action is only for when it is needed. BUT you do need to train in it otherwise when it is needed and you haven't trained at all then it will be a big failure. That is why I also said suggested training in helping the community to gain support, which is the only way there will be a sucessfull revolution.

There was a thread a few months ago that also discussed many ideas along these lines, and generated a lot of useful ideas.

Revolutionary Training Camps

Worth reading, though eventually the discussion became a bit too advanced, and it was locked.

Thanks for the link, will read. :D

Also what do you people think about going to and meeting up at the next Knobb Creek Machine Gun Shoot?

edit - Just read through that link, thanks again for it.

rev-stoic

Standing in knee deep water with your arms crossed saying “I’m not going to do anything until the final end-all-be-all new boat arrives (the revolution)” is founded more in laziness than in conviction to theory.

This is exactly what some people seem to be doing.

lithium

If we wait until there are big signs of the Revolution actually starting, then it's too late to begin weapons training. Once the imperial power recognises the potential threat to the capitalist state then it will immediately ban all assemblies of people to prevent the spread of information and the formation of more insurgency groups. This happened in Ireland prior to the War of Independence; people were executed for simply meeting up and playing sports.

When the imperial armed forces come and try to arrest/kill you or your unit, it will be much better to already have the weapons training, than to be just deciding "eh ok I think now's a good time to start some training".

We need to have at least basic skills before a large-scale uprising begins to take place.

Another one of the reasons I believe that we should do something now.

GlassDraggon

I'm just suggesting a "camp" for the distribution of combat INFORMATION. The people in the camp come...share experience, training, information, etc etc and then go their seperate ways. Some leftists may work as units, some may work as paramilitary forces, some may work individually and some may just be coming because they want to know how to defend themselves.

One thing that I am suggesting that we should do, share info on things like helping people in times of need, class action, survival, and military training.

Sadena Meti

20th December 2006, 23:46

So many of the anti-militants rally around the concept of "if it isn't The Revolution, it is not worth doing." Frankly, this means that 95% of self-proclaimed revolutionaries are actually pacifists.

The Revolution is not the only thing worth doing. Want proof? Stop feeding yourself. Buying food is not The Revolution, so you shouldn’t do it, so do us a favor and die.

The age we live in can not be modeled on the past. This is a new era, the rules change every decade, and you can not study the Paris Commune and think that is what is going to happen the next time around. Welcome to the New World.

The time will (has) come when militant action will (is) necessary, not just in the cause of The Revolution. Fight the fights worth fighting, not just those you think you can win. The time will (has) come when the enemy will have to be assaulted, even if short-term victory is impossible. Perhaps you will organize, arm, and train a group, which will then assault the enemy of mankind, gaining a victory that will produce tangible results. But many of you seem to be of the opinion that if the single act doesn’t change the world, it is a waste of time.

A true revolutionary is not just about organizing and mass action. Yes, before the final victory, we will need the masses behind us. But not every battle is about the Final Victory. Some battles are just about killing XYZ or taking hill number 123.

Violence is the future, present, and past. Until the final revolution, we must fight every battle that we can. It doesn’t matter if we win, it doesn’t matter if popular opinion and tabloid magazines are behind us. A true revolutionary fights in the war, and dies, win or lose, that’s not the point.

To fight, that is the point.

JKP

21st December 2006, 01:46

Originally posted by rev-[email protected] 20, 2006 03:46 pm

To fight, that is the point.
Well, certainly not the only point, but definitely an important one, and something that the aspiring revolutionaries here are going to have to face up and educate themselves on.

This isn't pacifist left after all ;)

Guerrilla22

21st December 2006, 04:53

I'm organizing a guerrilla army on facebook if anyone's interested in joining.

JKP

21st December 2006, 04:56

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2006 08:53 pm
I'm organizing a guerrilla army on facebook if anyone's interested in joining.
Make sure it's private.

Felicia

21st December 2006, 06:55

my ex is a military buff, I'm gonna see if I can get him to post in here about militias and forming them, etc, he's done years of research, even joining the military at one point for the physical training and dicipline so he could train militia men if needed in the future. He's got charisma as a military leader, you guys might like him :rolleyes: :lol:

guerrilla22, send me your facebook addy :P

freakazoid

21st December 2006, 07:03

So what do you guys think about meeting up at the next Knobb Creek Machine Shoot?

Also, I too would like to know about the facebook.

Guerrilla22

21st December 2006, 09:55

If anyone wants to join here's the link:

http://wmich.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2220096405

We currently have four members, LOL

Springmeester

21st December 2006, 12:25

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2006 09:39 pm
When did I say that we should go around shooting? The military training is only for when the time for violent action is needed, NOT so we can just go out and shoot up the place which you seem to think no matter how many times I have said otherwise. I don't understand why you keep on missing that point.
And you just can't seem to give any reason for military training except that you like it, now when this military training is getting borring what are you going to do next? Because you still don't have mass-support, wich seems to be of very little importance to your 'revolution'.

Frankly I don't see a revolutionary communist who fights for workerspower, I see a petty-bourgeois looking for a thrill. If you are serious about your ideas, start acting serious. Go and work in a factory and start organizing, but don't start talking rubbish about militia's for when the time of violent action has come.

Honggweilo

21st December 2006, 12:49

I see a petty-bourgeois looking for a thrill.
I pictured an redneck cowboy actually :lol:

So many of the anti-militants rally around the concept of "if it isn't The Revolution, it is not worth doing." Frankly, this means that 95% of self-proclaimed revolutionaries are actually pacifists.

The Revolution is not the only thing worth doing. Want proof? Stop feeding yourself. Buying food is not The Revolution, so you shouldn’t do it, so do us a favor and die.

The age we live in can not be modeled on the past. This is a new era, the rules change every decade, and you can not study the Paris Commune and think that is what is going to happen the next time around. Welcome to the New World.

The time will (has) come when militant action will (is) necessary, not just in the cause of The Revolution

Picking up arms isn't only necessary when the vague concept of the "revolution" will erupt. A revolution starts by minor revolts by masses due to violent unbareable opression, like as we see in Oxaca. Its still a minor revolt that gainged a revolutionary stronghold compared to the whole of Mexico.

Destruction of fascist memorials is worth doing actually, with or without a "revolutionary situation". As long as you got mass support and gain class interest for your action. Pissing in the mailbox of the liberal party office when your drunk, is not a good act of spontanious revolt, because of lack of mass support, but yet priceless :wub:

groundinghubris

21st December 2006, 13:30

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2006 09:55 am
If anyone wants to join here's the link:

http://wmich.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2220096405

We currently have four members, LOL
I sent you message at the facebook addy. facebook. myspace, anyother large networking place----even here is not good place to discuss things.

check you message and get back to me.

Springmeester

21st December 2006, 13:57

Originally posted by groundinghubris+December 21, 2006 01:30 pm--> (groundinghubris @ December 21, 2006 01:30 pm)
[email protected] 21, 2006 09:55 am
If anyone wants to join here's the link:

http://wmich.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2220096405

We currently have four members, LOL
I sent you message at the facebook addy. facebook. myspace, anyother large networking place----even here is not good place to discuss things.

check you message and get back to me. [/b]
I smell conspiracy :ph34r:

Janus

30th December 2006, 08:49

Make sure it's private.
Facebook may be a bit more discreet than Myspace but it's still far from private. Besides, setting up serious groups on social networking sites is gonna create problems if you ever want real committment from all the members.

freakazoid

30th December 2006, 19:16

And you just can't seem to give any reason for military training except that you like it, now when this military training is getting borring what are you going to do next? Because you still don't have mass-support, wich seems to be of very little importance to your 'revolution'.

Are you daft Shift? Do you not read any of my posts at all? When did I say that it is just for fun? IT IS NOT JUST FOR MILITARY TRAINING! There are other things as well, such as actually helping people when they need it.

I pictured an redneck cowboy

A rednecked cowboy huh. It would seem like you also have not read any of my posts.

Picking up arms isn't only necessary when the vague concept of the "revolution" will erupt. A revolution starts by minor revolts by masses due to violent unbareable opression, like as we see in Oxaca. Its still a minor revolt that gainged a revolutionary stronghold compared to the whole of Mexico.

Think about how much better it would be if there was some kind of well trained militia.

edit -

If anyone wants to join here's the link:

http://wmich.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2220096405

We currently have four members, LOL

Just joined, I had to create an account there just for this, :D

edit edit -

Facebook may be a bit more discreet than Myspace but it's still far from private. Besides, setting up serious groups on social networking sites is gonna create problems if you ever want real committment from all the members.

Yeah that could be a problem, which is why I have suggested meating in real life at that place.

groundinghubris

30th December 2006, 19:24

There is a much smaller network community, linux based. Many of us have found it the best.
There are many now working toward a common goal. Its all a matter of finding one another.

btw, i never did get back to facebook. been very busy.

Guerrilla22

30th December 2006, 22:30

The group now has 13 members.

JKP

31st December 2006, 18:41

Is anyone there from Washington or Oregon? (I haven't yet registered a facebook account BTW)

Guerrilla22

31st December 2006, 19:43

I'm not sure, almost all of the members are from Michigan, and at least one is from Texas.

RNK

31st December 2006, 19:43

I think the basic principles of this sort of undertaking fall under "Guevarist doctrine" (aka propaganda of the deed), ie the belief that if a sustainable guerilla resistance can be maintained long enough without being eliminated then it could theoretically begin to generate support among the masses after several years, assuming that over time the population will first "get used to" the idea of local armed struggle and then "accept" it. There is some credibility to this belief, if you think about it. Our society has grown accustomed to peace, to the point that a single murder horrifies the vast majority of the population. Now you're talking about mass guerilla warfare in which thousands may die -- even for those sympathetic to the cause, it is such a culture shock that they can't help but oppose it and feed right into the reactionary right-wing lies that will undoubtedly follow.

That said, there's no reason why a peaceful progress towards the eventuality of armed struggle shouldn't take place. The right-wing portion of society sure has its fair share of reactionary militias who train constantly and endlessly for the day. We're already losing, because we haven't taken the time to take similar preperatory actions; we SHOULD form militias, operating inoffensively and with non-violence for the time being, to generate the initial core force and experience we'll need. If the Michigan Militia can do it, so should we be able to.

freakazoid

1st January 2007, 05:52

I'm not sure, almost all of the members are from Michigan, and at least one is from Texas.

I'm from Kansas. :)

Ernest - The militia wouldn't necessarily start the revolution. Again, in order for there to be a succesful revolution it needs to be backed by the people.

RNK

1st January 2007, 07:19

I never said anything about the militia starting the Revolution. I simply meant that when the time does come, the militia should be prepared.

Dimentio

1st January 2007, 17:31

Is this thread still on-going? I mean, the idea is quite futile given the contemporary conservatism.

But one good way to attract more support in the US is to pledge allegiance to the right to bear arms. Hillbillies alienated by economic growth and globalism, today recruited by the evangelicals, actually do have objective interests in left-orientated policies as well [evebn though they are against women's rights, homosexuals and people with other skin colours]. :P

JKP

1st January 2007, 18:09

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 09:31 am
Is this thread still on-going? I mean, the idea is quite futile given the contemporary conservatism.

But one good way to attract more support in the US is to pledge allegiance to the right to bear arms. Hillbillies alienated by economic growth and globalism, today recruited by the evangelicals, actually do have objective interests in left-orientated policies as well [evebn though they are against women's rights, homosexuals and people with other skin colours]. :P
Definitely, but I'm sure you don't mean to say all gun owners are hillbillies though do you?

There are one hundred million gun owners in the U.S, and I don't think that's an entirely fair generalization.

freakazoid

1st January 2007, 19:44

I never said anything about the militia starting the Revolution. I simply meant that when the time does come, the militia should be prepared.

Oh, I wasn't sure from reading that first paragraph.

Is this thread still on-going? I mean, the idea is quite futile given the contemporary conservatism.

Of course it is still going on. I am serious when I say that we should form a militia. And in order for us to do that we need to meat in real life. Like when I say that we should meat at the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot. What do you people think of that?

Dimentio

1st January 2007, 20:11

I am sorry to announce it, but the idea is more or less crazy. The left does not have political support on the country-side. Almost all militias are libertarian-leaning [the fuck-off-and-let-me-do-my-business-I-do-not-fucking-care-let-me-have-my-guns-and-be-a-redneck ideology you know], and there is a reason for that.

In the cities? What group would constitute your militia? Typical left-wing teenagers are not material for any type of insurrection. The only group which may be interested in the cities are the minority-based criminal gangs, and they are not progressive.

Guerrilla22

2nd January 2007, 06:13

It can be done, can be sucessful is another question, the best examples I can think of are the black panthers and the weather underground, which was urban based.

Dimentio

2nd January 2007, 07:58

Why? Because they were coolish?

They were crushed! And they were not even a threat against the state.

Guerrilla22

2nd January 2007, 08:11

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 07:58 am
Why? Because they were coolish?

They were crushed! And they were not even a threat against the state.
The weather underground was against the state, I'm not sure what you mean by "why, because they were coolish?" Are you implying that I would support such groups, simply because I think they're cool?

Dimentio

2nd January 2007, 08:55

I am implying that they were not so successful as you want make them to be. The Wheathermen were simply idiots who wanted to provoke a street war, and the Black Panthers - although more efficient - appeared more militant than they had armor or social capital to sustain themselves the luxurity with.

freakazoid

2nd January 2007, 21:35

I am sorry to announce it, but the idea is more or less crazy. The left does not have political support on the country-side.

We don't need support to start the militia that I am describing. In fact the militia that I am describing will do things to get people to realise what communism/anarchy really is.

Almost all militias are libertarian-leaning [the fuck-off-and-let-me-do-my-business-I-do-not-fucking-care-let-me-have-my-guns-and-be-a-redneck ideology you know], and there is a reason for that.

That is rather discriminating. :( I think that they are closer to us than you realise, just look at my other thread about the Free State Project.

Sadena Meti

6th January 2007, 04:19

Just FYI, I'll be spending the first two weeks in April camping and roughing it while scouting possible training camp sites in Arkansas. Anyone from RevLeft is welcome to join me. If nothing less, it will be a fun time exploring a major national forest, and checking out long abandoned logging and mining camps.

freakazoid

6th January 2007, 05:40

Urban exploring, YAY!

Sadena Meti

6th January 2007, 21:08

Heh, until you've done it, you don't know how cool it is. Driving for miles on a dirt forestry service road, and then suddenly hiting the breaks, and finding yourself before a fenced in encampment that hasn't been touched in 20 years... cool doesn't go far enough. It is like stumbling on some lost civilization, something hidden just for you. Just too kewl.

NZ_Commie

6th January 2007, 23:25

VERY cool. Leftist Militias dont necessarily have to be revolutionary in every act RIGHT NOW either. Providing defence against dangourous rightests (Nazi & 'patriotic' militias) who threaten leftist groups, providing skills,advice and in the right time resources to international struggles etc.

Is there anything essentially WRONG with being a prepared leftist? Just so long as you dont get yourself confused with those compound isolated, red-neck freaks.... :P

freakazoid

7th January 2007, 06:31

Nothing wrong with having a "compound". In the future I hope to have my own bug out shelter. :D

NZ_Commie

7th January 2007, 09:36

Dont you think that is a little counter productive, isolating yourself like that?

:P INTERNATIONAL revolution brother...

RNK

7th January 2007, 12:38

The unfortunate thing, and I think I've mentioned it, is that a Militia is going to need some sort of income. But after giving it thought (for months), here's essentially what needs to happen:

The Legal Route. This way involves operating within the legal framework of the US/Canada.

- Open up a gun club. This is essentially a place where people can get together, with guns. To do this one would need to aquire property on which to build the proper facilities, and attain the proper permits and licenses. I'm not sure about the specific laws but if possible it should include a firing range along with other types of.. things. Already you're running into the tens of thousands of dollars.
- Operate this gun club with a selective membership. Invite Comrades to join, and carefully scrutinize and reject members of the population who try to join. But do try to keep your political affiliation on the down-lo -- you don't need to wake up one day and find out your nice gun club has been firebombed.
- The next steps are purely organizational. Gather groups to go out into the countryside for some "hunting" activities. Hunting can go on (tracking game animals is good practice for the real thing) but use the oppurtunity to initiative training activities as well. Hold regular gatherings.
- One of the most important aspects will be a solid, large income of some sort so that this "business" can be maintained. Along with the tens of thousands of dollars needed simply to open the location, much more will be needed to pay the capitalist government for land taxes, utilities, etc etc, as well as the purchasing of firearms, ammunition and equipment. Membership dues are a must; though keep it small, afterall, we're not out to make a profit. Hopefully Comrades will be willing to donate as much as possible. Find other ways to gather money, be it fundraisers or... well, use your imagination.

That is essentially how such a militia could be started. It's very different from your standard "okay, let's run into the countryside and start a'trainin'!". It's less 'romantic'. Less 'action-packed'. But it is realistic. Taking unnecessary risks will only increase the chance that such a militia will be cracked down upon by the government for unlawful activities. Keeping it within the framework of the law greatly lowers the chances of this happening. So long as you and your "gun club" aren't breaking laws, you should be fully capable of doing anything in terms of training.

For more ideas check out the Michigan Militia. I've already mentioned it, but it is a good example of how a Militia-type organization can be created and maintained within the confines of the law, while still being able to provide members (who happen to be far-right gun-nuts) with all the tactical and firearms training that they'll ever need. The Michigan Militia inparticular operates on a paramilitary basis on a level very near to that of the US military. They also have a lot of ex-military members.

Anyway, if you're serious about it, be smart. Don't take unnecessary risks. We don't need to be seeing you on the news in 6 months with the caption "Leftist Terrorist Organization dismembered by FBI". And if you are serious I do suggest you go for it. If we could get as many Comrades as possible affiliated with such "gun clubs" we'd be able to build a veritable "underground army in the open". Our only obstacle is the willingness of our Comrades and the fat wallets needed to do a lot of this. But where there's a will, there's a way.

Sadena Meti

7th January 2007, 14:46

On the subject of income, despite what your school teachers told you, crime does pay. Look at FARC.

freakazoid

7th January 2007, 23:36

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 03:36 am
Dont you think that is a little counter productive, isolating yourself like that?

:P INTERNATIONAL revolution brother...
Not necessarily isolating myself, just a place where I can store all of my things and eventually live there in preporation for the TEOTWAWKI event. I don't have one yet though, :(. But hopefully in the future I will.

JKP

8th January 2007, 00:11

@Ernest:

I actually agree that a worker run gun club might be good, but the $10,000+ it would cost to set up and maintain doesn't make it very cost efficient. $10,000 could fully equip 9 or 10 people with quality rifles and gear, and after that you'd only really need to pay for ammunition.

Seeing as how the amount of people who would be using a gun club for its primary purpose of training a leftist militia/cell would be small, it's simply not worth the investment. If however, you can get dozens of people together then it's viable, but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

We don't have too much money at our disposal, so it has to be used in the most efficient manner possible for something like this. Trying to keep as much of a low profile as possible is the best way possible without resorting to superfluous expenses.

If you take the time to drive to a rural area, there are many places where you can train without prying eyes; provided of course, you don't do anything stupid.

Guerrilla22

8th January 2007, 19:54

For more ideas check out the Michigan Militia. I've already mentioned it, but it is a good example of how a Militia-type organization can be created and maintained within the confines of the law, while still being able to provide members (who happen to be far-right gun-nuts) with all the tactical and firearms training that they'll ever need. The Michigan Militia inparticular operates on a paramilitary basis on a level very near to that of the US military. They also have a lot of ex-military members.

Yeah, they're actually well organized, however I'm sure they're constantly under FBI survaillence though.

freakazoid

9th January 2007, 02:10

The gun club would be a good idea except like JKP has said, it wouldn't really be worth the investment. But if there was more people then that would be different. And about the Michigan Militia, They probably are monitered but I am sure that there are many things about them that the FBI doesn't know about them.

RNK

13th January 2007, 16:03

If there's any FBI connection with the Michigan Militia, I'd bet it's because there are FBI members in it. And I don't mean undercover.

Anyway, in reply to the monetary losses of a gun club:

My looking into it is very limited. The figure of $10,000 is completely arbitrary. What I imagine the costs would go towards would be the appropriation of property (blech), either by buying or renting; the costs of building on or renovating this property to be a suitable firearms range; the fees for whichever licenses would need to be aquired; and lastly, but most importantly, purchasing firearms, firearms equipment, cleaning equipment, storage, ammunition, etc -- anything to do with the guns themselves. Also keep in mind that there is a long list of regulations and other conformities that gun clubs need to adhere to in order to operate legally. The initial cost would be a one-time deal, and like any other business comes with its own financial risks -- but what kind of revolutionary isn't willing to take risks?

hazer87

19th February 2007, 23:44

"It is unreasonable for an armed man to obey the unarmed. It is also unreasonable for an unarmed man to feel safe amoung armed men."- Makiavelli

Face it, the government has the money and the arms, while most Americans do not. This is why protest and using our voice does not matter. For as long as they have the power of the economy and military, who are we to tell them what to do. If they have the means to stay in power, how much do you think they care about us and our interest. The time for revolution was yesterday, it is already starting to turn the tide. This generation is the last hope left for change, for if we do not change anything, all will be lost for the next to come. We must keep in mind that we as a generation shall be the ones to inheret this nation, this Earth, therefore it is our duty as human beings to save it, nurture it and protect it for future generations to come. At the rate the world and this nation is declining, there will be nothing left. It is our time, we must deal with what is happening now. If our lives must be sacrificed to do so, then let it be. I know I would give my life for the better of tomarrow, so that my future children will not be handed down a worser hell called Earth that our parents has given to us. I have the plan to win the hearts and minds of the people, the confidence to lead our people toward freedom. Helping the people is exactly what this party needs to do, to show that no matter what troubles are sent their way, they can depend on their fellow man to help and support them, and in return support us. No matter what kind of force the government has, they cannot break the binds of brothership, of family, of human nature. We must realize that it is our time, that the ways of the past shall haunt us no more, that only we can change things. Only we can determine what kind of world we will inheret and raise our children in. If we do not arm now, if we do not act now, if we do not speak now, then the ways of the truly free will be silenced. This is the call to arms. I have called. Who will answer? If their ears shall go deaf to our voices, let us speak a language they better understand. Meaning, if they do not listen to our voices, maybe they will when we take action. Go out, train yourself in all aspects of fighting and survival, educate yourself on politics and your resources, become knowledgable of your surroundings and terrain, teach the youth the truth rather than the propaganda force fed by the schools. Do something! For if we do nothing, then nothing will change.

RE-ACT, RESIST, REVOLT
Viva La Revolution!