Does God Exist?

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

Does God exist? Everyone has wondered if he does.

Life would be so much simpler if God existed. It rains – God did it! Earthquake – God did it! I got fired at my job – God did it! But of course, life is a lot more complicated than that.

If God really existed, God would have either caused or be controlling everything. All wars, all problems, all happiness and all sadness would all be God’s doing and what he wants (because he created everything)– so then the point of our lives would be to praise God and hope he will give us good things, because God made us and is our father. In other words, our purpose is to be his willing servants and slaves. If we serve him, then naturally wouldn’t he (being a good god) make our lives perfect and happy? But as we see, many of those who praise God (Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc.) don’t exactly live the best lives, and in history have often died tragic deaths or suffered a life of misery. In fact, it seems atheists are actually more successful in life than religious people! Does God punish those who he cares about? Well then he is a very ungrateful God. Why would a master whip his good slaves and reward the bad ones? Why would he put us through all these wars and suffering in the world? Why does he make innocent people starve in places like Africa and Asia? Why does he allow murder, crime, genocide, and all these other things to happen? Is he testing us?

If he is testing us, as our “mortal life before eternal life (Heaven)” then he is a complete asshole for doing so. People who went through World War II and Vietnam aren’t thanking God for putting them through that test, and they aren’t coming back stronger and more god-loving either. Most of them are coming back with nightmares every night and suffering from all sorts of injuries and diseases. If God exists, he is the one behind all the missiles and bombs being dropped on people in wars, he is the one behind all the murder and other problems humans go through everyday. Poverty, War, Death, Hate, murder, oppression, everything. If he exists, no sane person would love him, because he certainly doesn’t love us.

So here is what I ask you Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu’s, and all the rest of you who call yourselves “religious”:

Where was your God when the slaves were slaughtered in Latin America?
Where was your God when the Jews were gassed?
Where was your God when the nuclear bombs were dropped?
Where is your God in the shantytowns of India?
Where is your God in Iraq?
Why does your God let all these things happen?

What if you then say – “well we are humans, and we can’t understand God’s master-plan…we are only imperfect people, and God is perfect”. I think that I, same with anyone else, knows enough to see things like murder, genocide, rape, war, poverty, and bombs being dropped on innocent humans to be wrong and inhumane. Fuck God.

God is the real devil. Religions can cry all they want about the “all-loving father” who “sacrificed his only son for our sins”. Too bad humanity has sacrificed billions upon billions of sons, daughters, mothers, and fathers for God’s sins.

The only problem is, most of the times these religions can’t stand being isolated. The core of their doctrine is to go out and convert everyone else to their religion, and that’s why throughout history there were so many religious wars and burnings of heretics, and in our modern day we are seeing the results of religious fundamentalism all around the world. All these religions are inherently insane. If a person nowadays claimed that there was a invisible dragon up in space that would kill us all if we didn’t obey his will, then we would throw him into a psychiatric institute – there is absolutely no difference with this “God”.
None of the major religions can talk about morals without being an outright disgusting hypocrite, because it was these religions crying “thou shall not kill” that have killed so many people in the name of an ‘all-loving’ God.

[Sir_No_Sir]

The question isnt does God exist, the real question iswhy does it matter if God exists. We came from whereveer, and we're all in the same place,regardless anyways.

[Pow R. Toc H.]

Yes yes, God is a Douche. The fuck is also to blame for global warming. When the fuck will people start taking the responsibility?

[ichneumon]

you should drop the reference to hinduism, which you clearly do not understand - Kali most certainly was present at the events you list, twirling and stomping the Dance of Creation-Death.


http://grenier2clio.free.fr/hindou/pic/kali.jpg


furhtermore, this is puerile, though given, so is it's audience. they have faith, they don't care about your logic.

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

I guess so, but many of those "faithful" aren't radically faithful - I've talked with a diverse community of religious people, from mainly-agnostics/"i dont like my religion" to the son's of ministers and such, and generally they seem to all not even be sure there is a God, so that is the target of this flyer.

But formatting wise, do you think it is a readable size and well-explained for its size?

[jasmine]

Two points.

Who is this flyer addressed to? Probably most ordinary people who belong to a religion will find it insulting and abusive. Are you really trying to persuade anybody with this?

Also, many will tell you that their God does not control what happens on earth. He gave humans free will.

Just trying to help.

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

Alright Thanks, those are exactly the kind of points I was hoping people to find : )

[MrDoom]

One thing that I notice is that the first half of your flier begins rather formally, giving sound reasoning behind your arguments; while later it gets somewhat emotional (like using the phrase "Fuck God"). I do not see this as anything to disagree with, but it does weaken consistiency and apparent legitimacy. It would be good to stay consistiently formal and coolheaded.

[Bright Banana Beard]

I believe in God, but he does not mess with Earth, people or religious. He never touched them. It is the people's fault creating chaos, hungry problem, war & disaster. I do think
God messed with science to get rid of fake believer so he can get the honest believer.

Where was your God when the slaves were slaughtered in Latin America? Their children is here, they freed of course.
Where was your God when the Jews were gassed? Of course, Nazis is powerful but numerous Jew got saved too.
Where was your God when the nuclear bombs were dropped? The military doesn't use bible to attack.
Where is your God in the shantytowns of India? Corruption, I believe.
Where is your God in Iraq? I'm sure this is Bush's fault to make money and creates fear in us to destroy so-called terrorist.
Why does your God let all these things happen? God does not interfere our life, as we must learn what is right & what is wrong.

As I said, God will not control or tell us what to do, it is us we must know what is right or wrong. Intelligent exist, anyone?

[MrDoom]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2006 06:00 pm
I believe in God, but he does not mess with Earth, people or religious. He never touched them. It is the people's fault creating chaos, hungry problem, war & disaster. I do think
God messed with science to get rid of fake believer so he can get the honest believer.

Where was your God when the slaves were slaughtered in Latin America? Their children is here, they freed of course.
Where was your God when the Jews were gassed? Of course, Nazis is powerful but numerous Jew got saved too.
Where was your God when the nuclear bombs were dropped? The military doesn't use bible to attack.
Where is your God in the shantytowns of India? Corruption, I believe.
Where is your God in Iraq? I'm sure this is Bush's fault to make money and creates fear in us to destroy so-called terrorist.
Why does your God let all these things happen? God does not interfere our life, as we must learn what is right & what is wrong.

As I said, God will not control or tell us what to do, it is us we must know what is right or wrong. Intelligent exist, anyone?
If he has absolutely no ties to the material world whatsoever, why call him "God"? Why worship him, even?

[Forward Union]

heres a better leaflet?


Does God Exist?




No


Tell your friends!

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

If he has absolutely no ties to the material world whatsoever, why call him "God"? Why worship him, even?

Very True

[ZeroPain]

Religions can cry all they want about the “all-loving father” who “sacrificed his only son for our sins”. Too bad humanity has sacrificed billions upon billions of sons, daughters, mothers, and fathers for God’s sins.


I love that line its really powerful in meaning but it could be phrased somewhat better to make it sound much more strong.

[Bright Banana Beard]

If he has absolutely no ties to the material world whatsoever, why call him "God"?
He does have connection to the people, but many religious are false and you can describe why religious fucked up.


Why worship him, even? Because I felt a better person after I go to church, before that I was dumb and lazy, no one really likes me.But, now I help my family, give advice to my friends, got rid of depression, no more of bully, bully become friend, my grade got up & teacher was impress with my grade. I thank god for that happen, but you already know that bible does change the way people live. And yes, that people's concept is really strange and weird, but I believe in it.

[An archist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2006 06:00 pm
I believe in God, but he does not mess with Earth, people or religious. He never touched them. It is the people's fault creating chaos, hungry problem, war & disaster. I do think
God messed with science to get rid of fake believer so he can get the honest believer.

Where was your God when the slaves were slaughtered in Latin America? Their children is here, they freed of course.
Where was your God when the Jews were gassed? Of course, Nazis is powerful but numerous Jew got saved too.
Where was your God when the nuclear bombs were dropped? The military doesn't use bible to attack.
Where is your God in the shantytowns of India? Corruption, I believe.
Where is your God in Iraq? I'm sure this is Bush's fault to make money and creates fear in us to destroy so-called terrorist.
Why does your God let all these things happen? God does not interfere our life, as we must learn what is right & what is wrong.

As I said, God will not control or tell us what to do, it is us we must know what is right or wrong. Intelligent exist, anyone?
If god is all-powerfull, he could have prevented all those things.
If god is love, he would have wanted to prevent all those things.

IF there is a god (and there's no proof at all to say that) either he's not all-powerful, or he just hates us.

[Patchd]

He does have connection to the people

How do you know this?


I thank god for that happen

You should thank yourself. It wasn't God that helped you, you don't need a belief in a higher being in order to want to start concentrating in school.

EDIT:
If god is love, he would have wanted to prevent all those things.

If God is love, then he would not have created "Satan" and "evil" in the beginning.

[Publius]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2006 11:48 pm







Life would be so much simpler if God existed. It rains – God did it! Earthquake – God did it! I got fired at my job – God did it! But of course, life is a lot more complicated than that.

I disagree with the premise that "God did it" at all simplifies anything. God isn't an answer, it's a lack of answer.

Why does it rain? God did it. Why? Uhh. How? Uhh.

See what I mean? If you answer those questions, you've know moved beyond 'God' by assigning him methods and purposes.


If God really existed, God would have either caused or be controlling everything.

I think free will is a pretty basic Christian idea.

I'm not sure about Islam though.


All wars, all problems, all happiness and all sadness would all be God’s doing and what he wants (because he created everything)– so then the point of our lives would be to praise God and hope he will give us good things, because God made us and is our father.

Again, Christians believe in free will.


In other words, our purpose is to be his willing servants and slaves.

Most Christians point to this aspect of Christianity with adoration; they love 'serving' God.

Not a good argument to make.



If we serve him, then naturally wouldn’t he (being a good god) make our lives perfect and happy?

See above: free will

I'm not saying this is a good argument or a good refutation, but it is what Christians say and believe.


But as we see, many of those who praise God (Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc.) don’t exactly live the best lives, and in history have often died tragic deaths or suffered a life of misery. In fact, it seems atheists are actually more successful in life than religious people!

Completely speculative.


Does God punish those who he cares about? Well then he is a very ungrateful God. Why would a master whip his good slaves and reward the bad ones? Why would he put us through all these wars and suffering in the world? Why does he make innocent people starve in places like Africa and Asia? Why does he allow murder, crime, genocide, and all these other things to happen? Is he testing us?

Some Christians would say yes, some would say these are necessary results of man's fall, and others would say they are a result of free will.



If he is testing us, as our “mortal life before eternal life (Heaven)” then he is a complete asshole for doing so.

I sense you convincing a lot of people with this 'logic'...


People who went through World War II and Vietnam aren’t thanking God for putting them through that test, and they aren’t coming back stronger and more god-loving either.

Some are. I believe Elie Weisel said the Holocaust eventually brought him closer to God, after much anger and resentment. I'm not a hundred percent certain, but still, the point is the same: many people view suffering as something to turn to God FOR.


Most of them are coming back with nightmares every night and suffering from all sorts of injuries and diseases. If God exists, he is the one behind all the missiles and bombs being dropped on people in wars, he is the one behind all the murder and other problems humans go through everyday. Poverty, War, Death, Hate, murder, oppression, everything. If he exists, no sane person would love him, because he certainly doesn’t love us.

I think there's actually a good argument here, refuting 'free will'. They say "If God prevented all this from happening, we wouldn't have free will", which is of course nonsense. You don't let your children drink bleach or nearly drown to teach them lessons and to maintain their 'free will', do you? The best argument though, I think, is pointing out God's inconsistency: why does he heal some but not others? If truly God didn't interfere because of 'free will', as Christians claim, then he wouldn't interfere, period. But of course he does. THe Christian answer to this is, of course, "God works in mysterious ways", which completely destroys their previous 'argument' that God cannot interfere in free will, and is in fact nothing more than saying "I don't know."


So here is what I ask you Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu’s, and all the rest of you who call yourselves “religious”:

Where was your God when the slaves were slaughtered in Latin America?
Where was your God when the Jews were gassed?
Where was your God when the nuclear bombs were dropped?
Where is your God in the shantytowns of India?
Where is your God in Iraq?
Why does your God let all these things happen?

What if you then say – “well we are humans, and we can’t understand God’s master-plan…we are only imperfect people, and God is perfect”. I think that I, same with anyone else, knows enough to see things like murder, genocide, rape, war, poverty, and bombs being dropped on innocent humans to be wrong and inhumane. Fuck God.

Simply appealing to Theodicy won't be enough convince many Christians. They have arguments for it. Not good ones, mind you, but arguments good enough to convince the gullible. Learn to refute those.

From Wikipedia:

* Calvinism asserts that all events are part of God's righteous plan, and therefore, though they may involve true evil in themselves, they are intended by God for morally justified purposes (which are not always apparent to human beings). Calvinists see the duality of intentions indicated in Genesis 50:15-20 as the exemplar of this paradigm. Compare Augustine, Enchridion [On Faith, Hope and Love], 26:100.
* Open Theism asserts that God's goodness is displayed in the creation of beings with free will. The decision of a free will is not determined and therefore the decision and its consequences do not exist until the decision is made. Given free will, even an omniscient God would not claim to know that which God had determined not to be knowable. Therefore, free creatures may commit evil actions, but God's gift of freedom is still good.
* Maltheism asserts that the "problem of evil" is not a problem at all—the initial question has a simple answer, there is no way that a benevolent omnipotent God would allow evil in the world. Therefore, they reason, God is either not benevolent or not omnipotent.
* "Modified Dualism", since the powers of good and evil are unequal, and the evil power is merely tolerated by the good power, who turns all the acts of the evil power into eventual good. Classical Christianity, i.e, from the Apostolic Fathers to Augustine, has been characterized as "modified Dualism". Sts. Augustine and Basil the Great both explicitly mention this idea. St. John of Damascus proposed that God deliberately leaves some events "in our hands". In early modern times (1714) a modified Dualism was advocated by John of Tobolsk. Calvinism may be seen as a form of "modified Dualism" in the Augustinian tradition.

Well, Calvinism fails because, if God can decide what the final goal of his plan is, he could easily arrange it in such a way as to make evil superfluous.

Open theism fails because it's based on a contradiction, that an 'all knowing' being can 'not know' something, if given the choice. That being could 'not know something', but then he would not, by nature, then be 'all knowing.' You won't refute this, however, because the Christian will just go in circles around this point.

Maltheism is what you're going for, but you should note, it doesn't actually refute God, just one kind of good, a good one.

Dualism is just a rephrasing of Calvinism. It's possible that this is the case, but again, I ask what limits God from making all Good simply good.


The only problem is, most of the times these religions can’t stand being isolated. The core of their doctrine is to go out and convert everyone else to their religion, and that’s why throughout history there were so many religious wars and burnings of heretics, and in our modern day we are seeing the results of religious fundamentalism all around the world. All these religions are inherently insane.

Hard-hitting analysis, but what are you hitting?


If a person nowadays claimed that there was a invisible dragon up in space that would kill us all if we didn’t obey his will, then we would throw him into a psychiatric institute – there is absolutely no difference with this “God”.

Yeah there is.



None of the major religions can talk about morals without being an outright disgusting hypocrite,

Right...


because it was these religions crying “thou shall not kill” that have killed so many people in the name of an ‘all-loving’ God.

Not exactly a good pamplet. I think the odds of convincing a believer are between zero and less than zero. Now, maybe a good pampleht for atheistic circle-jerks (coughs), but honestly, there's no possibly way this does anything other perpetuate the stereotype that atheists are amoral, foul-mouthed assholes.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

You need to get rid of Free Will Defense. It isn't difficult, just talk about naturally occurring disasters and his omniscience logically contradiciting genuine free will.

-Alex

[Bright Banana Beard]

I go to church to be in highest in heaven, but also to learn a lot of thing that Chirstian called right or wrong, and remember I still support abortion, conception (to stay away from prengagnt), Embroyic stem cell research, get gay to be union. I never see a scripture saying they are evil.

[MrDoom]

I go to church to be in highest in heaven
Sounds like a real rat race. Almost like capitalism, if you ask me. Bend over backwards for the cappie, and you just might get to join his ranks as a petty-bourgeois.

Think of all the time you're wasting praying and going to church. You could be doing anything you wanted (developing new skills, improving yourself, etc.) with all of that time!


I never see a scripture saying they are evil.
Really? As I recall, there was plenty of scripture denouncing homosexuality and advocating the murder of gays.


He does have connection to the people, but many religious are false and you can describe why religious fucked up.
Describe this 'connection', give details of its properties and attributes.


Because I felt a better person after I go to church
You also feel better about yourself after snorting heroin. But the real question is, ARE you better? Or do you only FEEL better?


before that I was dumb and lazy
And "God" magically motivated you and filled your head with 'smartness'?


no one really likes me.
So what? If they 'like' you now, it's because you buy into their religious con game.


But, now I help my family, give advice to my friends,
Good. But was that really "God's work", or was it your own?


got rid of depression,
And replaced it with a delusion. Sounds like the alcoholic's response.


no more of bully, bully become friend,
Because you are with his church now?

Doesn't that sound like all of the religious imperialism in the past? "Join us believers or die! Oh, you just did? Well put 'er there, buddy ol' pal!"


my grade got up & teacher was impress with my grade.
This is your own effort, not "God's".


I thank god for that happen,
You should thank yourself.


but you already know that bible does change the way people live.
From what I've seen, it changes the way they live by making them NOT live.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2006 12:02 am
The question isnt does God exist, the real question iswhy does it matter if God exists. We came from whereveer, and we're all in the same place,regardless anyways.
Agreed.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Since, scientifically, we do not think in terms of things being "endless", science theorizes the Universe as a finite area/mass/amount of energy. So if the universe has and end, what lies just beyond the end? There is no such thing as "nothing". Even "black space" between atomic particles are just now begining to be understood to be made up of smaller particles.

So the Universe cannot be contained in "nothing". What is beyond? Either you go with faith or start theorizes multi-dimensional..... Faith is easier to understand.

I don't always go to church, but just to learn a lot about right and wrong & hopeness.
I believed God magically fill me as "smartness". The scripture filled me to do something.
It not just a church likes me, it everyone even who opposed my church.
I help my family when I believed in God.


Because you are with his church now?

Doesn't that sound like all of the religious imperialism in the past? "Join us believers or die! Oh, you just did? Well put 'er there, buddy ol' pal!" I still don't get this. I don't believe people should be forced, but it their choice to go to church. It just faith where no one will understand about it.