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Ol' Dirty
3rd December 2006, 04:13
Good guy. Did an eighth grade report on him. Revolutionary.

stevec
2nd January 2007, 06:02
Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 04:35 pm
I remember asking the question my my US History teacher about racism precivil war. When I learned that the free soilers (which Lincoln was) were just as racist as pro slavery people, I asked my teacher if there was anyone who wasn't racist. He replied with an entire class period talking about John Brown.

That was one of the best classes of US history I had that year.

John Brown is a true American hero.
He loved blacks and hated whites. That makes him different, but his hatred was probably more than what everyone else was experiencing. That makes him a unabomber or a Hitler, a unique predator of the night. I fail to see how that makes him a hero.

On any one of a thousand nights the slaves could have risen up and killed their masters. They chose not to.

Follow the poets, not the morons with guns in their hands, if you want to create a better world.


Tiger! Tiger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder, and what art,
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? and what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?

When the stars threw down their spears,
And watered heaven with their tears,
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the Lamb make thee?

Tiger! Tiger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?

Vargha Poralli
2nd January 2007, 06:58
stevec are you a neo luddite? that William Blake's song more illustrates that the pastoral country side as idyllic and viewed industrialization as a blight. "The Tyger" uses many images of the industrial world: fire, hammers, anvils, and furnaces all convey an image of the "satanic mills" of the nineteenth century. This is completely ignoring the facts like feudalism and serfdom which existed before industrialisation and the benefits of industrialisation.

Maybe you are advocating the roll back of mentality of people but be sure the process can never be rolled back and if it is then it will be at the great cost of humanity.

RevMARKSman
2nd January 2007, 11:58
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 01:58 am
stevec are you a neo luddite? that William Blake's song more illustrates that the pastoral country side as idyllic and viewed industrialization as a blight. "The Tyger" uses many images of the industrial world: fire, hammers, anvils, and furnaces all convey an image of the "satanic mills" of the nineteenth century. This is completely ignoring the facts like feudalism and serfdom which existed before industrialisation and the benefits of industrialisation.

Maybe you are advocating the roll back of mentality of people but be sure the process can never be rolled back and if it is then it will be at the great cost of humanity.
stevec was right--John Brown was an idiot. But in a different way than stevec thought.

During the Harpers Ferry raid he barricaded himself in a shed and defended against a company of Robert E Lee's marines. Maybe he thought he "should not" move on and attack, but this proved to be his doom. It's remarkably similar to the story of Oaxaca. They thought they could maintain a "safe zone" while simply waiting for the enemy to regroup, and then it was over. You can't just hold onto a piece of land. You must attack if you want to actually get things done! The ruling class is trying to defend their status, but of course they will attack if a group of communards just sits around.

stevec
2nd January 2007, 12:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 06:58 am
stevec are you a neo luddite? that William Blake's song more illustrates that the pastoral country side as idyllic and viewed industrialization as a blight. "The Tyger" uses many images of the industrial world: fire, hammers, anvils, and furnaces all convey an image of the "satanic mills" of the nineteenth century. This is completely ignoring the facts like feudalism and serfdom which existed before industrialisation and the benefits of industrialisation.

Maybe you are advocating the roll back of mentality of people but be sure the process can never be rolled back and if it is then it will be at the great cost of humanity.
Me, a neo luddite? lol no, but that's a new one.

The tiger thinks he has a right to kill. A real tiger, of course, has no choice. It is instinctual. But a human is a higher order of animal, isn't he? He has free will.

Killing people doesn't solve problems, killing people is the problem.

Man has the capacity to build (anvils, etc) but also the capacity to destroy. We spend waaay too much time building the capacity to destroy. We war until we are unable to war anymore. Then we rest and rebuild so we can war again. It is not very different from the tiger, who goes after prey whenever he is hungry. But what is our hunger to kill? The killer is always wrapping his hunger in a white cloth and calling it love, but what he is doing is loving one group and hating another group. aka, it is groupthink and doublethink combined.

An enlightened man enlightens others, he doesn't kill those who disagree. People follow tyrants, and then are surprised when the tyrant turns on them.

It is because people think of John Brown as a hero that we have morons in the White House like Bush. Bush thinks that killing people is the way to enlighten them, as does Osama. So what we end up with is two morons fighting their mirror. Many leaders fall into this intellectual trap, left, right and center. War is peace. Hate is love. etc.

stevec
2nd January 2007, 12:56
Originally posted by MonicaTTmed+January 02, 2007 11:58 am--> (MonicaTTmed @ January 02, 2007 11:58 am)
[email protected] 02, 2007 01:58 am
stevec are you a neo luddite? that William Blake's song more illustrates that the pastoral country side as idyllic and viewed industrialization as a blight. "The Tyger" uses many images of the industrial world: fire, hammers, anvils, and furnaces all convey an image of the "satanic mills" of the nineteenth century. This is completely ignoring the facts like feudalism and serfdom which existed before industrialisation and the benefits of industrialisation.

Maybe you are advocating the roll back of mentality of people but be sure the process can never be rolled back and if it is then it will be at the great cost of humanity.
stevec was right--John Brown was an idiot. But in a different way than stevec thought.

During the Harpers Ferry raid he barricaded himself in a shed and defended against a company of Robert E Lee's marines. Maybe he thought he "should not" move on and attack, but this proved to be his doom. It's remarkably similar to the story of Oaxaca. They thought they could maintain a "safe zone" while simply waiting for the enemy to regroup, and then it was over. You can't just hold onto a piece of land. You must attack if you want to actually get things done! The ruling class is trying to defend their status, but of course they will attack if a group of communards just sits around. [/b]
That sounds like the Green Zone in Iraq, too. :-)

Everybody that starts a fight is a moron. The same is true in Oaxaca.

There is always a better way to resist the Empire than through violence and destruction of property. That makes people afraid and leads them to act more stupidly than they were acting before.

To put it another way, the more you attack the government, the more it will tax you to suppress you, making you even more miserable.

Violence is always a dead-end strategy. And even if the rebel wins, he is simply as big a moron as the person who was overthrown. You trade one ruthless leader for another. Why would anybody want to live under a ruthless person?

Vargha Poralli
2nd January 2007, 13:16
Originally posted by stevec+January 02, 2007 06:19 pm--> (stevec @ January 02, 2007 06:19 pm)
[email protected] 02, 2007 06:58 am
stevec are you a neo luddite? that William Blake's song more illustrates that the pastoral country side as idyllic and viewed industrialization as a blight. "The Tyger" uses many images of the industrial world: fire, hammers, anvils, and furnaces all convey an image of the "satanic mills" of the nineteenth century. This is completely ignoring the facts like feudalism and serfdom which existed before industrialisation and the benefits of industrialisation.

Maybe you are advocating the roll back of mentality of people but be sure the process can never be rolled back and if it is then it will be at the great cost of humanity.
Me, a neo luddite? lol no, but that's a new one.

The tiger thinks he has a right to kill. A real tiger, of course, has no choice. It is instinctual. But a human is a higher order of animal, isn't he? He has free will.

Killing people doesn't solve problems, killing people is the problem.

Man has the capacity to build (anvils, etc) but also the capacity to destroy. We spend waaay too much time building the capacity to destroy. We war until we are unable to war anymore. Then we rest and rebuild so we can war again. It is not very different from the tiger, who goes after prey whenever he is hungry. But what is our hunger to kill? The killer is always wrapping his hunger in a white cloth and calling it love, but what he is doing is loving one group and hating another group. aka, it is groupthink and doublethink combined.

An enlightened man enlightens others, he doesn't kill those who disagree. People follow tyrants, and then are surprised when the tyrant turns on them.

It is because people think of John Brown as a hero that we have morons in the White House like Bush. Bush thinks that killing people is the way to enlighten them, as does Osama. So what we end up with is two morons fighting their mirror. Many leaders fall into this intellectual trap, left, right and center. War is peace. Hate is love. etc. [/b]
Well you have given a completely different interpretation of that song. I have interpreted that poem as a Ludiite nonsense.


The tiger thinks he has a right to kill. A real tiger, of course, has no choice. It is instinctual. But a human is a higher order of animal, isn't he? He has free will.

I think you have really extraordinary fools hope IMO. As an old saying goes "As long as there are Men there will be War". And humans are not above any animals we are basically equal as animals.Our basic needs are similar to theirs.Every living thing is basically driven by very primitive instinct self preservation.Except that unlike them we use many advanced methods to kill.

Whether you like it or not we are all in Class War.And to win in this war we need to be better than our enemies. And if time demands unfortunately yes we need to kill our enemies.


Violence is always a dead-end strategy. And even if the rebel wins, he is simply as big a moron as the person who was overthrown. You trade one ruthless leader for another. Why would anybody want to live under a ruthless person?

I am confused by this argument.Some one else have to refute this argument.

stevec
2nd January 2007, 14:50
Originally posted by g.ram+January 02, 2007 06:58 am--> (g.ram @ January 02, 2007 06:58 am) Whether you like it or not we are all in Class War.And to win in this war we need to be better than our enemies. And if time demands unfortunately yes we need to kill our enemies.[/b]

No, we are in a struggle against stupidity. Our own in many cases.
As Pogo said, "we have met the enemy, and he is is."

The division of wealth is a mathematical fact, not a political choice. Even the rich try to correct the system through philanthropy, but they cannot. The problem isn't people's will to create a better world (with or without violence) but they simply lack a proper understanding of what is occuring economically.

In other words, Marx was wrong. All Marx did was re-write what Adam Smith said, except instead of calling the primitives "savages" he called the business owner a savage. That is a difference of political opinion, not a difference of economic theory. Marx believed that the marketplace functioned the same way that Adam Smith did, and therin lies one of his errors. Following Marx down his rabbit holes leaves you in a hole, and the prescription for violence just makes it worse.

Adam Smith, in turn, was simply rewriting something that Ben Franklin had written 50 years ealier. But where Franklin took a page to say it, Adam Smith took 500 pages.

What did Franklin say? He said that paper currency was needed. And he got his wish 50 years later with the adoption of the Constitution and the creation of a central bank that issued paper currency. This put America at a huge advantage, and is why the dollar managed to rule the world for some 200+ years. Undoubtedly Ceasars image had the same power 2000 years ago. He who controls the currency controls the world. NOT THE PURSE STRINGS! It is the creation of currency itself that is powerful. Political change (the workers taking over) only accomplishes having a new person in charge of the purse strings, so it doesn't actually change anything. There is a new face in charge, but it is the same old system. This is obvious not only in the communist revolutions but also in the Islamist revolutions, like in Iran.

But what is currency? It is just an intellectual agreement. Or as Charles Osgood says on a video that the Federal Reserve puts out, "it is just a piece of paper."

Watch for yourself (http://www.squeegeegraphics.com/plugins/fedclip1.mov)

Of course, the importance of that statement is lost on just about everybody, including the Fed itself. (I know, I've tried to talk to them.)

Marx's theory of Capital is fundamentally flawed. He uses M-C-M+, but the correct theory is C=M+L Capital = Money + Labor. For a guy who spent so much time talking about labor, it is amazing that it is not in his equation of capital. Labor is relative to technology and whatever is being made, but money is the result of the accounting system itself, and the value of money is determined by the value of C, which means the equation is turning in on itself, like a paradox. Nevertheless, that is an accurate description of Capital. Money is used to buy the Capital that somebody else creates, then labor is added, and that creates a new capital (good) that can be sold. (Perhaps the equation should be C=M+L=C) Capital is essentially just goods, and the divide between rich and poor is a divide in capital. When dowries were common, that was an attempt to give a new couple enough capital (goods) to survive. The creation of paper currency, however, changed things dramatically. An economy based on specie (gold and silver) was limited by the amount of gold and silver that existed (which is why so much time was spent trying to turn lead into gold,) but an economy based on numbers (paper) has no limits. All you have to do is write down a number, and suddenly the money "exists." 2+2=5.

But that still isn't the whole story. People use money as a commodity itself, which changes the value of the money, which inturn changes the value of the goods: Presto! Inflation. The best way to outrun inflation is to engage in the same behavior that created the inflation originally: 2+2=6 But for 2+2=5 or 6 to exist, then somewhere 5=2+2 and 6=2+2, which explains the cycles of boom and bust. It is the price of capital fluctuating and changing hands. One mans profit is another mans overhead. And so the cycle continues, until people think killing each other is the only solution.

Marx was right about the importance of financial desperation guiding peoples political choices. Of course, Christ had said the same thing: The love of money is the root of all evil. But Marx was simply another victim of the thinking he described. He never quite realized that money isn't "real" it is just a piece of paper. Similarly, people sitting in the dirt panning for gold, like they did in California in 1849, is just another example of the insanity that people have about money. It should be no surpise that the Civil war followed shortly after. They dig the dirt out of the ground, simply to lock it into a vault at Fort Knox, and guard it forever, at taxpayer expense. It would have made more sense to just leave the colored dirt in the ground. But this behavior is not new. It has been going on for thousands of years. The ruins in Greece were essentially the old Fort Knox of their time. People hoard colored dirt. Talk about a stupid intellectual agreement! Money is an intellectual farce. Why would you kill somebody over money? You would only do so if you were insane. (There are a lot of insane people in the world.) Flying planes into banks is just another step in this continuum of insanity.


[email protected] 02, 2007 06:58 am

Violence is always a dead-end strategy. And even if the rebel wins, he is simply as big a moron as the person who was overthrown. You trade one ruthless leader for another. Why would anybody want to live under a ruthless person?

I am confused by this argument.Some one else have to refute this argument.

Think about it. If somebody is willing to kill your neighbor because of what they possess, then why wouldn't they kill you for what you possess? They demand obedience, and have an appetite that cannot be satisfied. Some people value wealth, others value power. Most leaders value both, which is why people follow them. They value those things, too. But then they discover that they are being treated in the same way that they treated others. We all reap what we sow, for good or ill.

If you want peace then you have to act peacefully. If you want others to share then you must be willing to share. Robin Hood was a moron. He would steal from the rich, and so the rich would steal from the poor.

But as I explained, what is making people rich and poor is the currency system itself. It is just like the game Monopoly, which is based on the economic ideas of Henry George. Everybody makes the same amount of money:$200 for passing GO. It should be the communist ideal, but eventually all the money ends up in the hands of one person, and the board is full of hotels and houses that nobody can afford to live in. Everybody started equally, and was paid exactly the same during the course of the game, but the money divided automatically. Winners and losers was strictly by change; nobody controlled their own destiny. It is the game itself that is flawed. Or as I put it, "the system doesn't work." We were all born into the system, nobody actually created it. We can change it, but not if people are too busy hating one another to learn anything, or too proud of morons who claim that killing somebody will solve our problems. If your hero is a moron, then you will be a moron, too. Be careful of who you admire.

RevMARKSman
2nd January 2007, 15:56
Violence is always a dead-end strategy. And even if the rebel wins, he is simply as big a moron as the person who was overthrown. You trade one ruthless leader for another. Why would anybody want to live under a ruthless person?

The destruction of one state apparatus does not necessarily mean the construction of another.

stevec
2nd January 2007, 16:56
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 03:56 pm

Violence is always a dead-end strategy. And even if the rebel wins, he is simply as big a moron as the person who was overthrown. You trade one ruthless leader for another. Why would anybody want to live under a ruthless person?

The destruction of one state apparatus does not necessarily mean the construction of another.
Show me one place where that has occured.

The violent need to continue to use violence to maintain control. Like Washington and Shay's Rebellion. From Lenin to Stalin, etc.

I suppose if the genocide is complete, then there is no need for a new state apparatus, but what leader wants to be ruler of nothing? Who will sing their praise and build their memorials? :-)

Government is a religion, and somebody wants to be the Pope.

stevec
4th January 2007, 05:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 05:23 am
I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.
That is what the neo-cons always say to me! (Word for word.)

You are very alike in your fears and love of violence. Your heroes have different names.

Isn't peace the change everybody wants? You can only build peace with peace. If you hate your enemy you become him. You end up fighting your own reflection in the mirror.

Its a funny thing, no matter how much power a person has, they can still think of themselves as a victim anyway.

RedKnight
4th January 2007, 06:11
No, I want victory, not peace at all cost. Is peace so sweet to be bought with chains? I shall fight for justice and freedom, not passively submit to oppression.

stevec
4th January 2007, 17:30
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 06:11 am
No, I want victory, not peace at all cost. Is peace so sweet to be bought with chains? I shall fight for justice and freedom, not passively submit to oppression.
In general, chains do not hold people. People hold onto the chains.

The escallation of fear, anger and greed occurs on both sides of a conflict. Authority pushes, the rebel pushes back, authority pushes more, etc and so on. We are all born into this battle, and it started long before we were born. We are born into a divided world, regardless of if we hold a low or a high position.

We are indoctrinated long before we are educated, regardless of our position.

Therefore it is our own intellectual chains (or perhaps I should say emotional chains) of hate and anger and greed (the exercise of POWER) that enslave us. Ideas of "revenge" and "order" are the same thing, if it requires others to change but not yourself.

It doesn't matter which dog wins, it remains a dog-eat-dog world if you think and act like a dog. If you want a different world, then you need to think and act differently than the fighting dogs.

I call capitalism two dogs fighting over two bones. Socialism isn't any different.

You are enslaved to the will for power, the same thing you fight. You will never find freedom that way because in victory you will simply change places and be in battle anew to keep your bones. You will never be free unless you let go of the will to power. Then nobody can enslave you, and you have let go of your chains, regardless of if you began low or high.

There are plenty of bones in the world, there is no need to fight over them.

RedKnight
4th January 2007, 20:03
Well since this is a history topic. What about the Warsaw ghetto uprising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_ghetto_uprising), during the holocaust? In your opinion, were the jews as bad as there Nazi adversarys? Should they have just allowed themselves be lead like livestock to the slaughter? As for me I'd rather be bad yet alive and free, than to be good and dead, or enslaved. And I do not want power just for myself, I want power for all of the people. Leaders must be held accountable to there subjects. And when they abuse there power, they should be resisted by all means necessary.

stevec
5th January 2007, 03:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 08:03 pm
Well since this is a history topic. What about the Warsaw ghetto uprising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_ghetto_uprising), during the holocaust? In your opinion, were the jews as bad as there Nazi adversarys? Should they have just allowed themselves be lead like livestock to the slaughter? As for me I'd rather be bad yet alive and free, than to be good and dead, or enslaved. And I do not want power just for myself, I want power for all of the people. Leaders must be held accountable to there subjects. And when they abuse there power, they should be resisted by all means necessary.
Man is an ugly beast, isn't he?

He is always walking up to a starnger and saying, "I'm sorry sir, but I must kill you."

He has a gun in one hand and a piece of paper in the other. This is what a fascist "is" any he comes in many many flavors. In ancient times and today always there was some imperative to kill. Some problem to fix, some person to blame, some need of urgency to rush history along to get to that "better place" that had been promised us where we would be "happy and free" finally. (My blog is www.behappyandfree.com)

That "piece of paper" has many forms. An order from the government, a declaration of Independence, the Communist Manifesto, a verse in the Bible or Koran, etc. Perhaps it is a personal manifesto, like the Unabomber or Timothy McVeigh, but always their is a reason why "history" demands your death.

So what do you do when this self-appointed "guardian of history" knocks at your door?

If you kill him, then you will teach your children that killing is a good thing to do. Before long, they will be knocking at someone else's door. What was "defense" quickly evolves into "offense is the best defense" and "pre-emptive" attacks and "better safe than sorry" and "nipping the problem in the bud" (perhaps first by segregation, eh?) Paranoia and fear have no limits, once begun they never end.

Whatever evil is in the world still continues if you kill the person at the door. The evil has simply passed from one person to another. One killer was stopped, and another was born.

So what do you do when he knocks at your door?

Do you say, "Hey, you made a mistake. I'm one of you." and then join him? That is a lesson to teach your children too. To go along to get along. When in Rome do as the Romans do. Whatever evil was at the door has been multiplied. You are now born to kill so that you may live to die.

So what do you do when he knocks at the door?

Don't be home. Perhaps, rather than waiting for evil to come to you, you should go out and meet it on the open road. Walk and talk and step down the road. The person who wants to kill evil has a definition in his head of evil. He will kill one man and leave another standing. He is choosing. He has freewill and he uses it. In fact, he believes he is killing evil to save the good, so obviously he is as careful as possible to protect which he values. When he meets you on the open road he does not know if you are friend or foe.

So what do you do when he knocks at the door, and you are home? Do you let a stranger in? Do you tell a pregnant woman to go sleep in the barn and give birth like the animals?

We are all born to live and born to die. What difference does it make how you die? That is sure to occur. All that really matters is how you live. If you are alive by killing, then you are already dead. It is better to love your enemy and let him have his way if you cannot convince him otherwise, but when you give up on him you have also given up on yourself.

We all reap what we sow, and we all pay for the sins of our fathers. We are simply the last actors to arrive on the stage. We do not write the script for ourselves, but for the next generation.