Question about the IWW

[Entrails Konfetti]

The IWW forms unions around workplaces, their unions are different from other because they advocate minority unionism. These tactics do help in getting gains for the workers, however in the history of the IWW it looks like branches come and go.

How is it the IWW will preserve unions, and gain unions to the extent it encompasses all the workers so the revolution is upon the world ?

To me it just seems that it is in a funk with just organizing work-places temporarily to make gains and not going any further, though I know they want to.

The IWW is one of the most active workers organizations in the USA. Honestly, I'd join the IWW, but I just don't understand it.

[BreadBros]

It doesn't purposefully organize temporarily. Some of the gains may only be temporarily because unionism as a whole is in a downturn, its hard to keep a union going and keep making gains, especially for a revolutionary one, so people are tempted to join mainstream unions for their stability I guess. Its something that has to be worked at to build.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2006 02:34 am
It doesn't purposefully organize temporarily. Some of the gains may only be temporarily because unionism as a whole is in a downturn, its hard to keep a union going and keep making gains, especially for a revolutionary one, so people are tempted to join mainstream unions for their stability I guess. Its something that has to be worked at to build.
Well they certainly have the right idea as an organization, but where are they to go with it?

[peaccenicked]

The IWW were massacred by the US state machine., a million or so lives were ruined or killed .They did not vote largely because they wanted or were made to be invisible. I say to all IWWers now. Vote. Register your brains. It dont mean that you are a traitor. The stuggle for socilalism is to make the invisible visible not just with fake elections but to say these elections are fake. The shoop floor and the parliament builidngs have to be as one.

[Sabocat]

The IWW generally concedes that the skilled labor that will unionize, has already done so within the typical bourgeois trade unions (re AFL-CIO craft unions)

Their goal, like their goal at the beginning, is to unionize the unskilled/production/service laborers first (the vast majority of labor) and then to try to get the craft/trade unions later. Once that has been accomplished, the workers can, by virtue of numbers and collective solidarity ("One Big Union"), take over the means of production with a free association of labor thus eliminating the employing class.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2006 04:20 pm
Their goal, like their goal at the beginning, is to unionize the unskilled/production/service laborers first (the vast majority of labor) and then to try to get the craft/trade unions later. Once that has been accomplished, the workers can, by virtue of numbers and collective solidarity ("One Big Union"), take over the means of production with a free association of labor thus eliminating the employing class.
Sounds like a good approach.


...and then to try to get the craft/trade unions later.

So what will make the craft/trades unions want to do something dangerous and radical like join the IWW?

The actions of the IWW, it's credibilty and tradition on it's own will make them want to join?


Once that has been accomplished, the workers can, by virtue of numbers and collective solidarity ("One Big Union"), take over the means of production with a free association of labor thus eliminating the employing class.

They'll have to come to realization first, that they can take over the means of production and advocate, and know theoretically some form of socialist-syndicalism. That will be a long process, and Wobblies will have to teach with patience.

The IWW's litterature really relates to the real-world, easy to read, comprehensive, and provides real strategies. I like their style, it's like they're talking with me and not AT me.

[Sabocat]

So what will make the craft/trades unions want to do something dangerous and radical like join the IWW?

The actions of the IWW, it's credibilty and tradition on it's own will make them want to join?


If the IWW is successful in building a huge membership of unionized laborers, I think their strength and solidarity would be attractive to current AFL-CIO members, who have watched their union membership numbers drastically shrink and their business agents continually sell them down the river. Most of the craft union members I work with understand the need of solidarity of labor. I don't think it's that much of a stretch to imagine they would support the IWW.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2006 09:48 pm
If the IWW is successful in building a huge membership of unionized laborers, I think their strength and solidarity would be attractive to current AFL-CIO members, who have watched their union membership numbers drastically shrink and their business agents continually sell them down the river. Most of the craft union members I work with understand the need of solidarity of labor. I don't think it's that much of a stretch to imagine they would support the IWW.
But the solidarity factor isn't anti-capitalist, some workers may get radicalized by working in the IWW through their other litterature and workshops.

Another question, I'm curious as if most of the members in the baristas IWW union were members before the creation of the barrista union. Did a IWW member help get other members jobs at Starbucks?

Also how successful has the IWW been at organizing workers at non-profit organizations? You know like dock workers.

[violencia.Proletariat]

They did not vote largely because they wanted or were made to be invisible.

The IWW is apolitical. We do not tell our members who to vote for or that they should vote at all, it's their business.


I say to all IWWers now. Vote. Register your brains. It dont mean that you are a traitor. The stuggle for socilalism is to make the invisible visible not just with fake elections but to say these elections are fake. The shoop floor and the parliament builidngs have to be as one.

First of all, this is completely irrelevant to the thread. Secondly, we are not a political party, we are a labor union. Take your politics somewhere else.


Another question, I'm curious as if most of the members in the baristas IWW union were members before the creation of the barrista union. Did a IWW member help get other members jobs at Starbucks?

Some yes but originally it was IWW organizers who started the union push. As to whether these organizers had already worked for Starbucks or were just salting, I'm not sure.

How could the organizers get other IWW members jobs there? They are not in management positions and couldn't do this.


Also how successful has the IWW been at organizing workers at non-profit organizations? You know like dock workers.

I don't understand how dock workers are a non profit organization. In 2005 we had some luck organizing dock truckers but things fell through.

[classwarveteran]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 02, 2006 09:31 pm
The IWW forms unions around workplaces, their unions are different from other because they advocate minority unionism. These tactics do help in getting gains for the workers, however in the history of the IWW it looks like branches come and go.

How is it the IWW will preserve unions, and gain unions to the extent it encompasses all the workers so the revolution is upon the world ?

To me it just seems that it is in a funk with just organizing work-places temporarily to make gains and not going any further, though I know they want to.

The IWW is one of the most active workers organizations in the USA. Honestly, I'd join the IWW, but I just don't understand it.
Sorry I missed participating earlier. I will try to make myself available for additional questions, discussion, etc. I've got a good bit of experience with the IWW.

The IWW methodology is actually to form unions around industries, from extraction, to manufacture and production, to distribution. While organizing may initially take place at a particular shop, the idea isn't just to organize all the workers of every craft in a particular shop or in a particular company, but rather to organize to create industy-wide standards and enable workers to coordinate their efforts industry-wide, with the goal of enabling them to carry on production for themselves.

There will always be an ebb and flow of locals (industrial union branches) given the very nature of capitalist production itself, as well as how the class struggle plays out. We are not absolutely against time contracts, which to some extent stabilize class relations for a particular period of time, and which can have the benefit of providing some greater stability in particular circumstances; however, we leave those decisions up to those involved (traditionally, up to the IWW's constituent Industrial Unions), as to whether it makes sense to have contracts for a particular industry at a particular point in time. Last big example of that would be the Cleveland Metal & Machinery Workers Industrial Union #440, from about 1933-1950, when the union decided not to sign the Taft-Hartley anti-communist provision.

Minority Unionism, also called direct unionism, is the concept that one does not have to command a majority of support for the *union* in any particular situation to act as a union (in its best traditional sense) and advocate for on-the-job and industrial improvements. The idea, of course, is to eventually gain support from more workers, and therefore have even more opportunities to improve working conditions by advocating around particular issues as they arise, rather than waging a campaign under the rubric of getting a contract, sitting down, and negotiating all the terms and conditions of employment. Again, the strategy used really depends on the group of workers involved, and the nature of the industry and its workforce.

[Janus]

To me it just seems that it is in a funk with just organizing work-places temporarily to make gains and not going any further, though I know they want to.
The IWW views union organizing as a means to an end not as an end in itself. These goals are clearly stated in the preamble to the IWW constitution.

[classwarveteran]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2006 05:53 pm
The IWW views union organizing as a means to an end not as an end in itself. These goals are clearly stated in the preamble to the IWW constitution.
Well, the goal is not labor peace with the capitalists, or some era of industrial harmony under capitalism...but neither does it mean that we feel the union needs to be merged into, or subsumed under, a revolutionary party [sic?] during a "revolutionary situation." Contrary to the statement attributed to FW Haywood, most IWWs did not believe that the Soviet Union was the IWW "all feathered out."

[Janus]

Well, the goal is not labor peace with the capitalists, or some era of industrial harmony under capitalism...but neither does it mean that we feel the union needs to be merged into, or subsumed under, a revolutionary party [sic?] during a "revolutionary situation."
I never said that it was either.


The IWW is apolitical
I think the term"apolitical" is somewhat misleading; it creates the sense that the IWW has no interest whatsoever in politics.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by Violencia Proletariat+--> (Violencia Proletariat)I don't understand how dock workers are a non profit organization. In 2005 we had some luck organizing dock truckers but things fell through. [/b]
My bad, dock-workers at non-profits, aswell as service people at non-profits.


Originally posted by [email protected]

The IWW methodology is actually to form unions around industries, from extraction, to manufacture and production, to distribution. While organizing may initially take place at a particular shop, the idea isn't just to organize all the workers of every craft in a particular shop or in a particular company, but rather to organize to create industy-wide standards and enable workers to coordinate their efforts industry-wide, with the goal of enabling them to carry on production for themselves


Sabocat
If the IWW is successful in building a huge membership of unionized laborers, I think their strength and solidarity would be attractive to current AFL-CIO members, who have watched their union membership numbers drastically shrink and their business agents continually sell them down the river. Most of the craft union members I work with understand the need of solidarity of labor. I don't think it's that much of a stretch to imagine they would support the IWW

Okay, together you emphasize on solidarity and autonomony-- how do these atributes influence workers to take control of society and implement Socialism, Communism or Anarchism, (or whatever semantics one prefers to use for the new society when work, money, classes, and private property are abolished and with all means in common)?

There certainly appears to be an aspect in the IWW that tries to raise consciousness towards revolution-- I've seen you with your Anarcho-Syndicalist flags. And Anarcho-Syndicalist writings are on your links. As an outsider who'd like to join, you certainly seem political.

The idea is that economic section of society needs to be changed, then the political structure too, right? Or is it infact simulteanous, seeing how the economic structure is what influences the political structure, and the workers are from the economic structure. therefore also the political structure.

[Ultra-Violence]

When i join the carpenters union i thoguht about it hooking up wiht the iww in some way you know but is it not contradicting would they allow "skilled" labor to join as well

enlighten me plz.. :hammer:

[classwarveteran]

Originally posted by Ultra-[email protected] 07, 2006 01:00 am
When i join the carpenters union i thoguht about it hooking up wiht the iww in some way you know but is it not contradicting would they allow "skilled" labor to join as well

enlighten me plz.. :hammer:
You would be most welcome to join, fellow worker. We have no problems working with skilled or unskilled workers, and both groups should work together more often. It's a rather artificial distinction in many ways.

There are a number of carpenters in the IWW, including those who also are members of the UBC. Feel free to contact me, and I can put you in touch with some of these folks.

[Sabocat]

Originally posted by Ultra-[email protected] 07, 2006 02:00 am
When i join the carpenters union i thoguht about it hooking up wiht the iww in some way you know but is it not contradicting would they allow "skilled" labor to join as well

enlighten me plz.. :hammer:
Just FYI, I am a union carpenter and an IWW member. A "double carder" so to speak. I haven't had any problems with my union, and they are aware of my politics, ideology, and that I generally regard the AFL-CIO leadership with contempt.

Not surprisingly, quite of few in the carpenters union feel the same.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Okay, together you emphasize on solidarity and autonomony-- how do these atributes influence workers to take control of society and implement Socialism, Communism or Anarchism, (or whatever semantics one prefers to use for the new society when work, money, classes, and private property are abolished and with all means in common)?

Thats why we organize industrialy. That way the workers have the means and organization to take over entire industries and coordinate all aspects of production.

If your asking how we will physically go about making revolution, I think that will be decided when the time comes. One tactic obviously is the general strike. Speaking of workers militias, etc, is premature.


There certainly appears to be an aspect in the IWW that tries to raise consciousness towards revolution

I'd hope so, it's a revolutionary anti capitalist union.


I've seen you with your Anarcho-Syndicalist flags. And Anarcho-Syndicalist writings are on your links. As an outsider who'd like to join, you certainly seem political.

Those are members politics. The IWW as a whole does not accept anarchist syndicalism as our "platform." If there are links on our site then its probably theory that is related to our goals and ideas. There is a political nature in the sense that we are anti capitalist. Anti capitalism is obviously political but we don't define ourselves as anything from there.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by Sabocat+--> (Sabocat)Not surprisingly, quite of few in the carpenters union feel the same[/b]

And thats another thing, I'd like to join, but I'm not in a union so I don't feel I have much to offer the IWW.


Violencia.Proletariat
I'd hope so, it's a revolutionary anti capitalist union.

Since you consider yourself Anti-Capitalist, how does a member who is apolitical release they are opposed to capitalism and are revolutionary?

[classwarveteran]

Originally posted by EL KABLAMO+December 07, 2006 04:16 pm--> (EL KABLAMO @ December 07, 2006 04:16 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected]
Not surprisingly, quite of few in the carpenters union feel the same

And thats another thing, I'd like to join, but I'm not in a union so I don't feel I have much to offer the IWW.


Violencia.Proletariat
I'd hope so, it's a revolutionary anti capitalist union.

Since you consider yourself Anti-Capitalist, how does a member who is apolitical release they are opposed to capitalism and are revolutionary?[/b]
We're not primarily made-up of dual carders. In other words, we are a functioning union in and of ourselves. So, those who are not currently union members are encouraged to join and be union members, regardless of their particular workplace status. Of course, we would expect you to actually want to organize a union wherever you work, and in whatever industry you work.

I'm not sure I understand your second question, but I'll take a shot at it. Workers who are not socialists, etc., still join the IWW when it has something they think it will offer them, such as greater pay, more workplace control, and solidarity on the job. Most people get it when we explain the preamble to them, and address whatever they've mistakenly been told about such ideas. The IWW doesn't think there has to be a division of workers and bosses in society. Many workers think of their supervisors as incompetent assholes anyhow, so they can relate to this. They may not agree with everything we say, but they don't have to. Agreement with the preamble is not a condition of membership.

A lot of workers really are anti-capitalist, but just don't refer to things or conceptualize of things along the same lines that we do. What radicalizes them? Well, a good union can help do that, but ultimately, it would be the class struggle itself. However, I don't think Marx anticipated all of the social conditioning that goes on these days, to play workers off one another, and brainwash us to think we have more in common with our employers than with workers in other countries -- or to get us to the point where we think the capitalist system is the only viable option. A good union should really provide education for their members as to how this is not the case.

I think you are approaching this from the standpoint of ideological affinity, meaning that you are looking at the IWW as something that you agree with in your mind, rather than something which can be used to support your struggles in the workplace to produce more benefits for yourself and have a better life. I've signed-up Democrats before, relatively apolitical people, etc. It's just a matter of discussing things in a way that they can relate to, and showing them that it is to their benefit. Obviously, there are always going to be some people who are foaming-at-the-mouth rabid pro-capitalists (or just hopeless idiots), but they usually wouldn't join another union anyhow, unless it was a company union or something with relatively little bite.

Of course, I should add that the biggest obstacle to organizing I've seen is not people's horror of "socialism," but rather their previous experiences with business unions.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2006 11:05 pm
Of course, we would expect you to actually want to organize a union wherever you work, and in whatever industry you work.
What if the member can't start a union in the workplace because of how everything is organized, and that other workers don't want unions?
Also, what if the member want to change jobs, but they have helped in organizing a union, is that selfish of them?


I think you are approaching this from the standpoint of ideological affinity, meaning that you are looking at the IWW as something that you agree with in your mind, rather than something which can be used to support your struggles in the workplace to produce more benefits for yourself and have a better life.

To be honest, right now I'd have to consider myself a sympathizer, until I attend some workshops and meet and talk with more members. If it's obvious to you, I don't know much about unionism.

If any organization lives near Tampa Florida, 2 hrs away, please give me infor on your next workshop.

[classwarveteran]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 11, 2006 07:29 pm
What if the member can't start a union in the workplace because of how everything is organized, and that other workers don't want unions? Also, what if the member want to change jobs, but they have helped in organizing a union, is that selfish of them?

I think you raise questions of strategy, which are probably not best addressed on this thread. Something similar was raised earlier by someone who wanted advice on how to speak with a friend about organizing. My knowledge of Florida geography is not great, but I'll get in touch with you and see what we can do to put you in touch with some IWW members locally.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2006 01:34 am
My knowledge of Florida geography is not great, but I'll get in touch with you and see what we can do to put you in touch with some IWW members locally.
Great!
I know a few members indirectly in Gainseville and they aren't too far away.