Replacing the Police: Violent Crimes

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Most people here are anti-cop. Why? Because of actions cops take like what happened to Sean Bell last week. Socialism would eliminate crimes like robbery because such crimes would be pointless. My question is what about violent crimes. How could they be solved without oppressive pigs post-revolution?

[RedLenin]

How could they be solved without oppressive pigs post-revolution?

Violent crimes would be solved by the armed workers themselves, organized into local militias. My problem with police is that I do not believe a true socialist state can have any armed body seperate from the working class itself. The only armed force of the revolution is the armed force of the workers themselves.

So in regards to regular policing, I would propose local workers militias. These would prevent violent crimes. Remember one of the points laid out by Marx and Lenin was that there was to be no standing army as part of a workers state. I also take this as meaning a formal police force. If the workers themselves at the local level, through the soviets, decide the local laws, it only makes sense that they would also establish local militas to enforce them. And most importantly, all members of such militias should be elected and subject to recall. Making them accountable and making sure that no militia member shot an innocent man to death with 50 bullets.

[( R )evolution]

The community would take care of the prepurator (wow I cant spell)

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Remember one of the points laid out by Marx and Lenin was that there was to be no standing army as part of a workers state.

eh? Engels upheld the Paris Commune, but it had the National Guard. I think he was talking about communism if he said that.

[Boriznov]

how would a murderer or a rapist be found if the workers are too busy living there own life and working for the community. i don't think many people would like to see the idea of having to patrol the neighbourhood after a day of hard work.

how could gangs and mafia be stopped if you only have inexperienced and untrained workers ?

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2006 01:13 am

Remember one of the points laid out by Marx and Lenin was that there was to be no standing army as part of a workers state.

eh? Engels upheld the Paris Commune, but it had the National Guard. I think he was talking about communism if he said that.
donno about that

but they never said the paris commune was perfect

it was a workers' state in embryo

or something along those lines

and that "national guard" could've easily been a worker militia-ish thing, but you'd need to know their methods of organisation etc etc to know that.


in any case
consensus amongst leftists is; worker-militia

[blueeyedboy]

Wingsomega, I would think that the local miltias won't work first, then patrol the streets. They would just patrol the streets for thier job. I think former soldiers would be great for this, well the ones who joined with the workers anway, as they would be most effective in putting down uprisings and such like.

[RedLenin]

They would just patrol the streets for thier job.
That could be dangerous though. Such a situation would create the possibility for an abuse of power. A better option would be to have everybody who is willing, to do it on a rotating basis. In this way everyone would serve as a cop and there would be no abuse of power.

[Enragé]

I'm sorry
am i missing something?

why would we need to "patrol the streets"?
Except for in wartime maybe.

If something happens, the militia can be called in.
No need to have them standing on all corners 24/7

[Political_Chucky]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2006 03:04 pm
I'm sorry
am i missing something?

why would we need to "patrol the streets"?

Because crime is evident in any society, whether or not true communism has been implemented. There are people out there who just kill for the fuck of it. If true communism was implemented in America for example, are we really going to infer that gangs will cease to exist? I believe that there should still be some sort of police. With things such as drugs, robbery and other matters not having to be worried about, murderers, rapists, and maybe other criminals not inspired by money or material possessions can be focused more proficiently.


If something happens, the militia can be called in.
No need to have them standing on all corners 24/7

If there are millions of people in America(not to say a revolution can just happen in America) you can expect crime to happen 24/7

[Enragé]

Because crime is evident in any society, whether or not true communism has been implemented

nah, really


There are people out there who just kill for the fuck of it

sure
but you're not going to stop them by posting armed people on every corner, letting them patrol the city


If true communism was implemented in America for example, are we really going to infer that gangs will cease to exist? I believe that there should still be some sort of police. With things such as drugs, robbery and other matters not having to be worried about, murderers, rapists, and maybe other criminals not inspired by money or material possessions can be focused more proficiently

two words

social control, people in gangs, who dont contribute to society, will be recognised, and recieve nothing from society
so its either starve to death or stop fucking up your fellow man

and whenever actually armed people are necessary, they can always be called in

[Patchd]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2006 09:25 pm
how would a murderer or a rapist be found if the workers are too busy living there own life and working for the community. i don't think many people would like to see the idea of having to patrol the neighbourhood after a day of hard work.

how could gangs and mafia be stopped if you only have inexperienced and untrained workers ?
Well, I've always liked the idea that workers take shifts in the workers militias. Everyone who is able to should contribute, they take time off their usual work for say a week to do militia service. And there would still be scientists around, so any forensic scientists needed can be called in.

[MiniOswald]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2006 01:10 pm


social control, people in gangs, who dont contribute to society, will be recognised, and recieve nothing from society
so its either starve to death or stop fucking up your fellow man


What if these gangs just take from people they attack? For example a well organised enough gang could go around from town to town, hiding and attacking, and a well organised and well trained gang could probably out do a poorly trained militia.

So you couldnt just starve them, they could kill and take what they wanted.

[Enragé]

What if these gangs just take from people they attack? For example a well organised enough gang could go around from town to town, hiding and attacking, and a well organised and well trained gang could probably out do a poorly trained militia.

you arm the entire population and wipe them out.

[harris0]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2006 11:28 pm
Most people here are anti-cop. Why? Because of actions cops take like what happened to Sean Bell last week. Socialism would eliminate crimes like robbery because such crimes would be pointless. My question is what about violent crimes. How could they be solved without oppressive pigs post-revolution?
Enforcers of the laws that the people democratically decide to live by will be necessary in my opinion in any society...whatever you're going to call them "cops", "malitia", etc.

I also think the ideas mentioned by others in this thread that anti-social behavior will simply disapear after the fabled revolution is just silly. Violent crime, theft, etc will always exist.

The idea mentioned that a gift economy will end crime because people will stop giving products to criminals is silly as well (imo again)...because the gift economy could only work on a small scale. Economics is more complex then that...and you need a more organized, set system than that. Personally I like the some of the ideas of anarcho-syndicalism, some of Marxist council communists, and some of Parecon's.

[Ander]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2006 03:39 pm

What if these gangs just take from people they attack? For example a well organised enough gang could go around from town to town, hiding and attacking, and a well organised and well trained gang could probably out do a poorly trained militia.

you arm the entire population and wipe them out.
Haha wow, who would want to live in a society where there's a constant war between gangs and civilians? Gangs who are cut off are simply going to get what they need/want by violent or harmful means.

As for a standing army, although a communist society probably has no need for one, I believe that a socialist state definitely needs one. In its fragile infancy it would need some kind of protection in case of outside intervention and I'm not talking about just worker's militias.

[Enragé]

Haha wow, who would want to live in a society where there's a constant war between gangs and civilians?

nobody

who's saying it'll be constant?


violence against the people will be met with the full force of the people, whether this violence is counterrevolutionary or simply criminal in nature (which, in post-revolutionary times, is about the same).


Gangs who are cut off are simply going to get what they need/want by violent or harmful means

yah
and so you counter them with violent means, simple.


As for a standing army, although a communist society probably has no need for one, I believe that a socialist state definitely needs one. In its fragile infancy it would need some kind of protection in case of outside intervention and I'm not talking about just worker's militias.

to call for the development of a standing army is to call for the development of a political power which exceeds that of the general working class, in essence, to call for the creation of an embryonic ruling class (being determines consciousness).

as a consequence
to propose the creation of a standing army is to propose the suicide of the revolution.