Why is Che great?

[Intellectual47]

I have been studying socialism and came across Che. I then learned that people like you seem to adore this man. Can you inform me as to why?

[LSD]

"Adore" is probably too strong a word to use.

Many people certainly respect Che Guevara and honour what he did to combat imperialism and fight for liberation.

Plus the man was killed for the cause of freedom and we all know how powerful a martyr is.

***

I'm curious, though. You say you've been "studying" socialism, but what are your political convictions?

[Intellectual47]

An an intellectual (hence the name) I try to get as much information as possible on something before I make up my mind. Though I'm have been rasied in a capitalist country, I begining to reject it materialism. So I'm looking for an alternative.

Can you tell me more about Che's accomplishments. The history books say he helped Fidel's revolution, but what else did he do? What kind of man was he.

[Janus]

but what else did he do?
Well, besides being one of the main leaders of the Cuban Revolution, he later rejected his relatively stable life in post-revolution Cuba in order to directly help the socialist cause in the Congo and Bolivia.


What kind of man was he.
A committed revolutionary and anti-imperialist.

[Unquiet Youth]

Che was indeed part of Fidel's band of guerrillas, one of the highest ranked besides Fidel himself I believe. Che was famous for dedicating himself solely to the cause, taking an interest in the peasants they were liberating, training with his soldiers, and criticizing himself when he felt, as he described it, "the need to live" in a battle. Still, Che was far from perfect, he was intolerant of homosexuals, degrading to women, and, if I remember right, a bit of a rascist. So all in all I'd say LSD is right, adore is too strong of a word, but respect is just about right.

[Intellectual47]

Hmmm. This does make sense, but why does he have such a high place in the socialist Hall of Fame? Cuba as a country is not doing to hot right now and he also stagnated Cuba's economy when he led it. There's also evidence that Fidel forced him out of Cuba because he wasn't doing a great job with the econmoy.

From what I've read he was a very intellegent man who really cared for the poor, but he didn't improve the lives of cuba's poor very much. So why does he have a forum just for him.


P.S. "Adore" was probably to strong a word, but you do seem to praise him much here. Now if you excuse me I have to go watch "My Name is Earl" ( I said I lived in a capitalist country. Where do ya'll live)

[Comrade J]

I think (but don't quote me on this) the majority of us live in North America, Europe or Australia, though obviously there are people from all over the globe here.


Hmmm. This does make sense, but why does he have such a high place in the socialist Hall of Fame? Cuba as a country is not doing to hot right now and he also stagnated Cuba's economy when he led it.

Communism is intrinsically anti-imperialist, and as Che was greatly opposed to imperialism and spoke against it many times (even at the UN), many of us have a deal of respect for him for this. He was never much of a great political theoretician akin to say, Marx, Lenin, Bakunin etc. though he certainly did a great deal for the Cuban people and led men into battle on several occasions, for which he is respected.

Also, bear in mind that he died in 1967 - almost 40 years ago, so it isn't fair to associate the present state of the Cuban economy at the moment with him, seeing as there has obviously been much change and an increase in political and economic obstacles since then, which the Cuban government had to deal with and adapt to. You will no doubt be aware of the American embargo on Cuba, which created huge problems for Castro, especially with the downfall of the Soviets in 1991, with whom Cuba had previously had strong, reliable trade agreements. The embargo naturally has implications on the Cuban economy and therefore the Cuban people - you can read more about it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba).

You say Cuba isn't doing too great at the moment, but what about the rest of the Carribean and South America? The American government doesn't seem particularly against most of these countries, simply because they serve as US economic colonies, providing the cheap proletarian labour for American businesses, and are thus now dependent on US economic control.
Still, check out these statistics - click. (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/cuba/)
Take note of the sources, such as the CIA World Factbook, Encarta Encyclopedia etc - hardly biased pro-Cuba sources. You will notice that even though it's suffering under the American embargo and at risk of soon becoming under US economic (possibly even military?) control, it has much better standards of literacy, healthcare, sanitation etc. than it's capitalist neighbours. It has a 100% Adult Literacy rate, less patients per doctor than even the USA and lower unemployment levels than the USA... now there's something the bourgeois media don't mention.

And as for the myth that Fidel forced Che from Cuba, well it's just that: a myth. Read any letters between the two at the time and it vastly contradicts this ridiculous rumour, Che had his own reasons for leaving Cuba, and apparently Fidel actually asked him to stay, though I am not entirely certain if that's true or not.


P.S. "Adore" was probably to strong a word, but you do seem to praise him much here.
Not really - if you have been browsing the Che forum more than any of the others, then you would certainly get that impression, considering this is where his more 'devout' followers are likely to post - elsewhere in the forum he is rarely mentioned, at least in the context of being a great political figure.

And we have a forum just for him presumably because he is such an icon, people interested in Che Guevara often then become more interested and involved in Marxism, and by having a forum for him it attracts people to this site (such as yourself) and they can then learn more about Marxist and anarchist theory. Also, this forum came from www.che-lives.com, so perhaps it is a tribute to its roots, I'm not entirely certain, you'd have to ask the admins. ;)

The bottom of the page does say this though:
The Ernesto 'Che' Guevara forum is an apprendix of Che-Lives.com and is used primarily for the visitors of that website to discuss relevant issues regarding the Cuban revolutionary.

Although this message board was created as a direct link to Che-Lives.com on its creation five years ago, Che-Lives.com and the Ernesto 'Che' Guevara forum no longer represents RevolutionaryLeft.com or the broad beliefs held by the members.

RevolutionaryLeft.com is a non-alligned broad based anti-capitalist message board and is not expressed by any specific individual set of beliefs, theorists or revolutionaries.

[Organic Revolution]

hmm... he was a good man, because he fought for liberation, but he was also a villian of sorts for putting anarchists up against the wall, and eliminating his political 'enemies'. its a double edged sword.

[Intellectual47]

[Communism is intrinsically anti-imperialist]
But didn't Castro have a gulag system that rivaled the Soviet union in cruelty?

[though he certainly did a great deal for the Cuban people and led men into battle on several occasions, for which he is respected.]


He left the cuban people in a state worse than when he got there. There's been many hated people who've led their men into battle. George Patton, Osama bin Laden (well maybe you don't hate him) and many others. So leading your men into battle doesn't make you right. Respectable, but not right.

You say that the present state of Cuba's economy can't be blamed on Che. This is true, but Cuba's economy severly stagnated when he was in power.

Oh, and Organic Revolution, could please explain the quote about anarchism you have at the bottom?

P.S. how do you make quotes

[Comrade J]

To make quotes, you can either just hit the quote button above the typing box, paste the message, then hit it again. Or just type what's in this box:
[quote]*the text you are quoting[/quote]



Communism is intrinsically anti-imperialist
But didn't Castro have a gulag system that rivaled the Soviet union in cruelty?
No. Have you any proof of this claim? And what the hell has that got to do with imperialism anyway? Do you know what imperialism is?
Wikipedia's definition:

Imperialism is a policy of extending the control or authority over foreign entities as a means of acquisition and/or maintenance of empires, either through direct territorial or through indirect methods of exerting control on the politics and/or economy of other countries.The term is used by some to describe the policy of a country in maintaining colonies and dominance over distant lands, regardless of whether the country calls itself an empire.


He left the cuban people in a state worse than when he got there.
Source?

[Intellectual47]

My source is the amazing book "Against all Hope" written by a man who spent 20 years in Castro's gulag for saying something mean about him.

And I believe the state of Cuba's society can be a source for my other statement.

And Cuba's invasion of Angola wasn't imperialism?

[Solitary Mind]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2006 09:48 pm
My source is the amazing book "Against all Hope" written by a man who spent 20 years in Castro's gulag for saying something mean about him.

And I believe the state of Cuba's society can be a source for my other statement.

And Cuba's invasion of Angola wasn't imperialism?
biased gusano book, im a cuban and have talked to many other cubans who LOVE to exaggerate... and can i please ask what invasion of angola??? and people say mean things about castro alot, they are still alive and well

and no che was not a racist, was sort of degrading to women, but only in the sense that most guys are, that if the woman give it up, he'd hit it...but its true he wasn't too tolerant of homosexuals...

i have to go now so i cant anymore, but ill try to write up a small bio if you will....

[Intellectual47]

I never said anything like that about Che. And the invasion of Angloa was when Cuba sent thousands of troops and machinery to Anglola during the Angolan civil War.

People say mean things about Castro HERE. That's the key point. And have you ever been to a cuban prison?

[Janus]

This is true, but Cuba's economy severly stagnated when he was in power.
There were many reasons for Cuba's economic stagnation after the revolution. Of course, no one is pretending that Che was some type of economic genius of any type which is why he quit his position as the President of the National Bank of Cuba.


And the invasion of Angloa was when Cuba sent thousands of troops and machinery to Anglola during the Angolan civil War.
Cuba wasn't trying to dominate or control Angola and it definitely didn't invade i either, rather they simply sent troops to help the MPLA (the Angolan gov. at the time) battle against the UNITA guerrillas who were being backed by the US and South Africa.

[Intellectual47]

Which would be exactly like the Vietnam war. And yet I've heard that that war an invasion and Cuba's was not?

Can you actually list reasons for Cuba's stagnation?

[shadowed by the secret police]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2006 09:06 pm
I have been studying socialism and came across Che. I then learned that people like you seem to adore this man. Can you inform me as to why?
Because he had the balls to fight for what he believed in, unlike the majority of us (including myself) who sit around chatting on the internet.

Che had the balls to join a radical armed revolutionary movement--- Castro's the 26th of July movement and other guerrilla groups in Africa and Bolivia (three times!!!!!) risking his life. Oh and I forgot in Guatemala too in 1954, so it's four times fighting in 3 continents! Africa (Congo), North America (is Guatemala and Cuba part of North America?) and South America (Bolivia)

[marian]

I'm also wondering why you all like him that much.
Don't get me wrong i like(d) him too, but the fact that he killed that many people and helped only replacing one dictator for another (not saying that Castro isn't better than former president Batista) isn't helping very much.

[Pirate Utopian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 07:16 pm
I'm also wondering why you all like him that much.
Don't get me wrong i like(d) him too, but the fact that he killed that many people and helped only replacing one dictator for another (not saying that Castro isn't better than former president Batista) isn't helping very much.
i doubt fidel is really a dictator and if he is, Guevara couldnt look into the future could he?

[marian]

Originally posted by Big [email protected] 11, 2006 08:34 pm

i doubt fidel is really a dictator and if he is, Guevara couldnt look into the future could he? [/quote]
if Castro isn't a dictator why arent there any free elections in cuba for fourty years?

[Pirate Utopian]

source?

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Unquiet [email protected] 01, 2006 12:03 am
Che was indeed part of Fidel's band of guerrillas, one of the highest ranked besides Fidel himself I believe. Che was famous for dedicating himself solely to the cause, taking an interest in the peasants they were liberating, training with his soldiers, and criticizing himself when he felt, as he described it, "the need to live" in a battle. Still, Che was far from perfect, he was intolerant of homosexuals, degrading to women, and, if I remember right, a bit of a rascist. So all in all I'd say LSD is right, adore is too strong of a word, but respect is just about right.
a bit of a racist? how in the hell can you be %1 racist if you are in AFRICA! helping people who aren't even "part of your race"

is this about the comments he made in his diary? it was something like "he smell was strong like a black mans" or something similar. pretty much saying blacks have a stronger B.O.??? if you read it in spanish it doesn't sound racist. in spanish and latin america we throw around the word "negro" and is not consider at all racist and blacks are not as offended because is just the culture and how we talk. translated in english it sounds racist. but in spanish is normal. not consider racist by NO ONE

[matiasm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2006 09:53 am


i doubt fidel is really a dictator and if he is, Guevara couldnt look into the future could he?
if Castro isn't a dictator why arent there any free elections in cuba for fourty years? [/quote]
Castro may dictate Cuba but washington dictates the world. It doesnt seem to be very different apart from the ideological factors.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2006 01:03 am

From what I've read he was a very intellegent man who really cared for the poor, but he didn't improve the lives of cuba's poor very much. So why does he have a forum just for him.

Cuba improved greatly while Che was in said nation.


if you read it in spanish it doesn't sound racist. in spanish and latin america we throw around the word "negro" and is not consider at all racist and blacks are not as offended because is just the culture and how we talk. translated in english it sounds racist. but in spanish is normal. not consider racist by NO ONE

Kind of like how Cuban squadrons were organized in "chinos" and "chekos" (sic?). "Chinos" were cuban pilots trained in China, and "chekos" were Cuban pilots trained in Chechozlovakia. It wasn't a racist statement. It's just that in Cuba (and I am sure probably in Mexico, Argentina etc. but I can only really base it on knowledge on Cuba), racial descriptions are thrown out of thin air without much thought. A Cuban might very well be called "Chino" because he is Chinese-Cuban.

This is Cuba, and I don't know how things are in Argentina but I guess there are similarities, as our Mexican friend pointed out :)


But yeah I've heard Che had some racist opinions, but where they really that bad, if he did have some prejudice? Each society influence people, even revolutionaries. Some to a lesser extent than others.

He was willing to sacrifice his life in Mosambique (sic?), Congo, or any other nation. That's more than one can say about many armchair revolutionaries.

[matiasm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 11:19 pm
But yeah I've heard Che had some racist opinions, but where they really that bad, if he did have some prejudice?


Yeah? and which are they?? please be specific when throwing comments like that out? Back it up with evidence and (reliable) sources!!??

[More Fire for the People]

But yeah I've heard Che had some racist opinions, but where they really that bad, if he did have some prejudice? Each society influence people, even revolutionaries. Some to a lesser extent than others.
Che was white, fought for meztizo and indigenous rights, and fought with blacks against white occupation in Africa. He also admired Mao and wanted to create 'two, three, many Vietnams'. Sounds like a racist to me.

[Clarksist]

People say mean things about Castro HERE. That's the key point. And have you ever been to a cuban prison?

Hmm... that is irrelevant to whether Che should be respected or not. Now if you've been to a Cuban prison, instead of just taking one guy at his word, then please share.


Can you actually list reasons for Cuba's stagnation?

There are plenty.

1. The US embargo on Cuba.
2. Have you seen Cuba on a map? There is no way it can self sustain, thus it has had a tough time finding trade partners who will turn their backs on the rich US.
3. The fall of the USSR created the "Special Period" in which vast amounts of income and goods that were coming in stopped.


if Castro isn't a dictator why arent there any free elections in cuba for fourty years?

Umm... there are.

SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Cuba

[matiasm]

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 15, 2007 04:02 am
Che was white, fought for meztizo and indigenous rights, and fought with blacks against white occupation in Africa. He also admired Mao and wanted to create 'two, three, many Vietnams'. Sounds like a racist to me.
well said.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

matiasm,


I've heard

[matiasm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 11:19 pm
but where they really that bad, if he did have some prejudice?
ok, you've heard, which probably means, that if you did hear it it most likely came from a capialist brick or imperalist *****!

Racial comments are bad, there is no such thing as "really not that bad" racism. By reading your comment it suggest that you may beielve these rumours, and by saying that "they are not that bad" does not better the moral of the act.

[Pirate Utopian]

also in the Motorcycle Diaries he meets up with some black and native families/people and writes about their condition in their support.
he also met someone who was thrown out of a townparty because the town thought he was gay, Che and his friend talk with this man and he writes about that guy with great sympathy. the latter was to show i dont think che wasnt homophobic

[cumbia]

Hes probaly so great cause hes soe damn handsome.