Did Japan help make China communist?

[lostsoul]

Hi everyone,

i recently started to study chinese history and i have been wondering about question, i was hoping some of you knowledge people may help me with the answer.


I have studied mao alot lately, and from my studies kind of started to relize after the long march the red army would have been destoryed if the nationalists kept going (i heard they were only 8,000 men left). But because Japan invaded china, America and USSR made the nationalists and the Communists make a truce inorder to protect china. Thats one point where i figured Japan helped the communist, Japan bought them time.


Second, and most important, it seems the Communists in china, were the only ones willing to fight japan. And because of that many people joined(i have different numbers but most books i read agree that within a short time, the communists army grew very large numbers). Many young people joined to fight the invaders. But after World War 2 was over, the Red Army had a very strong force and was able to take china.

I am just a benginner studying china, so please correct me if i'm wrong. And also, i was wondering what do you all think would have happened if Japan never invaded China?

[Kapitan Andrey]

...this is wery strange opinion!!! I don't belive in this!

[Dhul Fiqar]

It's not a strange oppinion, it's a generally accepted oppinion. Everyone I know that's studied the Long March agrees the period in which the Communists allied with the Guomintang against the Japanese was a crucial part of the revolutionary process.

They probably would have won eventually, but it would have taken much more time had the country not been reeling from the terrible effects of the occupation. It's a lot easier to inspire revolution and take over a country when it's in shambles than when things are stable.

That being said, it's obviously not a good thing that the Japanese invaded, nor was it an intended consequence to bolster the socialist cause.

--- G.

[nz revolution]

I would have to say one thing is incorrect.

The Chinese commie army was called the People's Liberation Army PLA not the Red Army, the Red Army was from Soviet Russia

[Dhul Fiqar]

Yeah, and that's a great point actually. Much of the legitimacy of the PLA came from it's outstanding performance against the Japanese, and the fact that they liberated large swathes of territory.

--- G.

[chamo]

A quick look at my history book seems to inform me that the invasion was a very indirect cause of Communist China.

It would have been the socialist spirit that keep 'em fighting!

[Dhul Fiqar]

They certainly would have prevailed eventually, but with much more bloodshed and difficult battles. Perhaps we'd even have seen a much larger part of China entrenched under the Guomintang untill this day, instead of just Taiwan.

The actions of the PLA in the war won them widespread respect across the Chinese population, most of which had never heard of them untill they showed up killing their Japanese oppressors. After the war, they had a HUGE base of support across the country, much larger than any non-military campaign could have brought them in that timespan.

--- G.

(Edited by Dhul Fiqar at 9:56 pm on May 13, 2003)

[lostsoul]

hmmm...Wasn't the PLA, really the red army, but changed their named? I know the soviet army was called the Red army, but in the books i have read they keep refering to china's army as the red army too, but after a certain date, they changed their name. *feels embrassed if i'm wrong..since i have been calling china's army the red army for so long..it sounds 54.54% cooler*


Also after the long march, the nationalist were still trying to kill the communists, but because of america and the USSR they had to make a truce with the communists. From what i read, the nationalists were not really willing to fight japan and would rather have fought the communists. i don't remember how big the nationalists army was, but i am sure it was over a million soliders(i heard it was 4 million..but i think that could be too high), and the communists were only about 8,000. I think if the nationalists actually continued their attack on the communists they would wiped them out.

The communists were amazing fighters, i agree. They fought great battles in which 5,000 of their men made 50,000 nationalists surrender, but i don't think they could at 8,000 take an army of over a million.

I really think Japan give the communist two of the greatests gifts:
1) time
2) more soliders(many people joined the communists to fight japan)

Please correct anything mistaken idea's i may have.



on a side topic, imagin how shitty Chiang Kai-shek must have felt knowing that if he just did 2 or 3 more encirclements of the communists, he would still be in china.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Hey, you're right! I'd forgot about that, but a quick check showed you are totally right. Mao's original CPC army that he formed back in '27 was called the "Red Army".

I don't think they changed the name untill after they actually liberated the country from the Japanese occupation in '45. Which kinda makes sense :)

--- G.

(Edited by Dhul Fiqar at 1:48 am on May 14, 2003)

[lostsoul]

Quote: from Dhul Fiqar on 5:46 pm on May 13, 2003
Hey, you're right! I'd forgot about that, but a quick check showed you are totally right. Mao's original CPC army that he formed back in '27 was called the "Red Army".

I don't think they changed the name untill after they actually liberated the country from the Japanese occupation in '45. Which kinda makes sense :)

--- G.

(Edited by Dhul Fiqar at 1:48 am on May 14, 2003)


i finally got one right!!!
Thank you all for your amazing input.

I had a feeling you'd respond Dhul Fiqar, because, if i remember correctly, your in china. But since i didn't think i would get many responses by many other people on this board, i posted it in a china newsgroup.(i was wrong though i got some pretty cool replies).

Their points are pretty intresting, some agree with me..some totally disagree and say that even without the communists, its possible the nationalists would have fell.

http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&i...81d2c5fc&rnum=2 (http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&th=29977aa481d2c5fc&rnum=2)

Its pretty intresting.

I'm not trying to figure out, if the red army changed its name to the PLA, why then during the cultural revulation did the students call themselfs the "red gaurds"..why not "the people's gaurds"? right now i am thinking its because they were trying to copy the revulationary period of the past(during the civil war. and war with japan)..but it seems kind of weird to me.


Anyways Take care and thanks again!

[Dhul Fiqar]

It's possible that it just sounded catchier, but there certainly could also be deeper reasons.

Furthermore, the translation is not 100% correct because the way sentances and characters work is different in Chinese. I don't speak much Chinese, but the Mandarin name for the guards is "Hung Wei Bing".

"Hung" = Red

"Wei" = Protect

"Bing" = Soldier

So basically, it's "The solderis who protect the red". It was not so much about protecting the population itself as it was about protecting socialism by strengthening socialist identity and institutions from the ground up. Of course, it was horribly perverted, but that was the idea.

--- G.

[lostsoul]

the red gaurd were fucked up. They would beat people, tutur them..do anything...i heard in most cities 2/3 of the houses got raided.

the cruelest thing i read, was they made some guys sit on bombs and made them light the fuse on themselfs.

I can't believe mao encouraged it. Its crazy

[Dhul Fiqar]

He didn't really encourage it, he was a sick old man at that time. Most of the power was in the grips of the Gang of Four.

--- G.

[lostsoul]

i used to think that also..but from what i read. He gave red gaurds free access to trains all over the country(so they can go anywhere), and he went to many huge red gaurd rallies.

He also told many of the politians to watch what their doing, if their good nothing will happen, if their bad then the people will deal with them.

the gang of four was fucked, but it seems that he played a big role when he felt his power was being taken away.

it seemed so crazy to me, i just don't understand how a book i read said the culutural revultion was nessary(it all fairness..it was a pro-stalin book..so maybe that explains why).

take care

[Dhul Fiqar]

Well, he probably felt his power was being taken away because it had been taken away, by the Gang of Four. Of course they did this also by fostering paranoia, making him think everyone except them was against him.

I'm not saying he was blameless, I just think he was very much manipulated in that stage of his life.

--- G.

[lostsoul]

Quote: from Dhul Fiqar on 12:38 am on May 16, 2003
Well, he probably felt his power was being taken away because it had been taken away, by the Gang of Four. Of course they did this also by fostering paranoia, making him think everyone except them was against him.

I'm not saying he was blameless, I just think he was very much manipulated in that stage of his life.

--- G.

I consider mao one of the greatest people of this century, but i feel a bit weird about the gang of four. I mean, every since his red army survived the long march, he was pretty isolated. Not in the literial sense of being alone physically, but in the mental sense, i think people just tried to follow him and allowed him to make the decisions.

Also, if you look over his whole life, he did soo many smart things to fuck up people who fucked with him. No need to explain this, just look at anyone who critized him, after the long march...either kicked out, jailed, or dead.

Well those two points my opinion show that after the long march, he slowly slowly diftied away from relaity but yet was very smart.

It seems to me the gang of four were very bad, but Mao was more responsible since he had dealt with worst scum in his life and fucked them up..yet he didn't do anything with the 4. I think although the 4 were horribly bad, they were also mainly a group to blame for mao's failures, inorder to preserve his image after his death.

On the other hand, maybe your right..later in his life he did seem a bit dumber...i mean in his younger years he'd have the craziest things to say to people who were fucking with him. But when, i believe it was, his defense securaty started to criquize him(over greap leap), instead of saying something smart he said "i'll go out to the country and over throw this goverment, and put a new goverment if i have too". Later in his life, lines like that were his comebacks.

hope it makes senese...

[GCusack]

Thats an interesting scope! I think that your rite, Japan, in an odd way, help Chiniese communists, however, the Japanese did persecute and kill many for being communist because like all Imperialists they were very scared of them

[lostsoul]

Quote: from GCusack on 10:39 pm on May 17, 2003
Thats an interesting scope! I think that your rite, Japan, in an odd way, help Chiniese communists, however, the Japanese did persecute and kill many for being communist because like all Imperialists they were very scared of them

Hilter also tried to kill communists but because of him, i believe, indirectly he was also responbile for creating the eastern bloc.

Japan hated communists but when they feel china became communists and so did north korea.

To me, it seems when these powers colasped and the people had a chance to make a choice they choose socialism.(in Asia's case..at least..not too sure about europe).

Some times people try so hard to destory something but in the end, just end up making it stronger. Thats why i find it very intresting.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from Kapitan Andrey on 8:22 am on May 13, 2003
...this is wery strange opinion!!! I don't belive in this!


Pfff....It doesn't sound strange to me. It actually explains a lot, if you would provide some numbers, statitics or even an argument.

[GCusack]

Its very true! Hitler did help create the Eastern bloc, if he had shown Stalin the bonus of expansion Stalin probably would have taken 10 maybe 20 more years to expand so much!