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Zero
29th November 2006, 18:45
There are those (like myself at one point) who believed the stories of western practitioners of Buddhism to be "in clean conscious" because "no war had been fought in the name of Buddhism", that it "wasn't a proper religion", and that the tradition of the Dalai Lama was clean and "progressive". After all he did say (quite ambiguously I might add) that he was "half Marxist", after he explains what a half-marixst is I suppose he should explain a bit of his history.

LSD had a pretty informative paragraph or two on the impact of the Dalai Lama's rule over Feudal Tibet, however I found an excellent article on Michael Parenti's website that goes into detail. I encourage everyone to read this.


Originally posted by "[email protected] Michael Parenti's Friendly Feudalism, The Tibet Myth"
In the Dalai Lama's Tibet, torture and mutilation—including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation--were favored punishments inflicted upon runaway serfs and thieves. Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: "When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion." Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then "left to God" in the freezing night to die. "The parallels between Tibet and medieval Europe are striking," concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet.

In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, and breaking off hands. There were instruments for slicing off kneecaps and heels, or hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling.

The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master's cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who was raped and then had her nose sliced away.

Early visitors to Tibet comment about the theocratic despotism. In 1895, an Englishman, Dr. A. L. Waddell, wrote that the populace was under the "intolerable tyranny of monks" and the devil superstitions they had fashioned to terrorize the people. In 1904 Perceval Landon described the Dalai Lama's rule as "an engine of oppression." At about that time, another English traveler, Captain W.F.T. O'Connor, observed that "the great landowners and the priests . . . exercise each in their own dominion a despotic power from which there is no appeal," while the people are "oppressed by the most monstrous growth of monasticism and priest-craft." Tibetan rulers "invented degrading legends and stimulated a spirit of superstition" among the common people. In 1937, another visitor, Spencer Chapman, wrote, "The Lamaist monk does not spend his time in ministering to the people or educating them... The beggar beside the road is nothing to the monk. Knowledge is the jealously guarded prerogative of the monasteries and is used to increase their influence and wealth."

The entire article can be found here (http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html).

freakazoid
29th November 2006, 18:49
:o Wow, you don't hear about things like that.

Zero
29th November 2006, 19:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2006 06:49 pm
:o Wow, you don't hear about things like that.
Actually yes you do. Just not by the Dalai Lamas :lol: .

Janus
2nd December 2006, 01:38
"no war had been fought in the name of Buddhism",
Well, they've obviously never studied the history of the Japanese warrior monks then.

ichneumon
2nd December 2006, 19:03
honestly, i don't get the point of this. are you saying that the current DL is a fascist feudal overlord? do you *really* think he wants to restore this system?

honest buddhists know that horrible thing have been done in the name of buddhism. i suspect that's why the buddha himself *begged* his followers not to turn his teaching into a religion. but the buddha can't stop the march of history - societies go through a series of stages, and brutal feudalism is one of them - how can a marxist not know this? furthermore, religion is always used in the process of state formation - part of what religion *is* is a system to apply group identity to unrelated individuals so that they function as a tribe.

religion is tool. it can be used to oppress or to liberate. so what?

Severian
3rd December 2006, 19:08
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2006 01:03 pm
honestly, i don't get the point of this. are you saying that the current DL is a fascist feudal overlord?
He certainly was a feudal overlord until he was overthrown. Whether he wants to go back - who can read his mind? In any case, he lacks that power.

What you might ask, though, is why believe the proclamations of an overthrown feudal theocrat?

The Bitter Hippy
3rd December 2006, 22:29
@ichneumon: what i want to know is how religion, defined by a belief in the unprovable combined with a set of mandatory, fundamental and utterly arbitrary laws, could ever be used to liberate?

ichneumon
4th December 2006, 03:46
please do not confuse religion with christianity. as a scientific buddhist, i don't believe in anything irrational or unprovable as a part of my religion. i do believe in the odd silly bit of nonsense for fun, but it has nothing to do with religion.

--PREACHY MODE ON---

1)the nature of human life is suffering - all beings grow old, weak, sick and die. in that time, most of us spend our few good days in misery.

2)psychological suffering comes from desire - desire for sensation and desire for material things. either the desire is sated, which then leads to even greater desire, or it can't be satisfied, and it torments us.

3)desire comes from attachment - attachment to things, to ideas, to the material world, the evidence of our senses.

4)attachment can be alleviated and suffering ameliorated by leading an ethical life of meditation and compassion.

the middle path: no one can be expected to be happy or be able to be happy unless they have full access to enough food, water, shelter and healthcare. too much of these things also prohibits happiness - it can become an addiction and addiction is slavery.

the boddhisattva vow: i will not seek my own transformation into nirvana until all sentient beings have access to the requirements of the middle path and full access to information, including the dharma. my suffering will not end until all suffering has ended, as all beings are one being.

--PREACHY MODE OFF--

you asked for it. whatever.

btw, the DL was taken from his family at age 6 and brainwashed for many years. he was 24 when he fled tibet, and at that time had no real idea of how the world worked. he's done well, considering. and no, i don't think he wants to reinstall feudalism - hell, what do y'all think of emperor akihito?

synthesis
7th December 2006, 11:11
I'm not really interested in debating this subject, since I don't know anything first-hand, but just to provide a counterpoint to anyone interested in hearing the other side of the argument:

http://www.studentsforafreetibet.org/article.php?id=425

Johnny Anarcho
7th December 2006, 15:22
I want proof.

ichneumon
10th December 2006, 19:17
that article was pretty detailed - what more do you want?

Severian
11th December 2006, 05:41
Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 07, 2006 09:22 am
I want proof.
If you really want more facts and sources, you can't find a lot in this thread. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=57205) There have been a lot on Tibet, you can search up some of the others if you still want more than that.

STI
11th December 2006, 11:21
Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 07, 2006 03:22 pm
I want proof.
Proof of what?

TC
12th December 2006, 09:20
Yah, the "Free Tibet" liberal anti-communist pro-theocracy people are really sad for supporting a brutal feudalism, which just goes to show how effective imperialist propaganda is at convincing otherwise rational and compassionate people (the anti-communist liberals) of utterly barbaric and inhumane positions.

ichneumon
12th December 2006, 12:19
exactly how does wanting china out of tibet equate to installing brutal feudalism? everyone, including the DL, wants democracy for tibet.

Yah, the "Feudal Tibet" leftist pro-communist anti-democracy people are really sad for supporting brutal oppression and genocide, which just goes to show how effective communist propaganda is at convincing otherwise rational and compassionate people (the procommunist liberals) of utterly barbaric and inhumane positions.

Zero
12th December 2006, 19:21
How do you equate modern-day China with Communist thought? -.^

Severian
13th December 2006, 22:58
Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2006 06:19 am
exactly how does wanting china out of tibet equate to installing brutal feudalism? everyone, including the DL, wants democracy for tibet.
How do you know? Actions speak louder than words, and that's not what he did when he was in power.

He doesn't exactly rule the exile Tibetan communities democratically, either. For example (http://www.tibet-internal.com/)

But there's a larger issue: support for U.S. and European imperialism, whose battle cry is always "democracy"! The DL is one of their paid propaganda institutions for going after China, which they consider a "strategic competitor".

The advanced capitalist countries are also applying pressure to China in order to get it too move further towards the "free market" and the "rule of law", that is stable capitalist property relations. Capitalist in China still can't buy land, for example. Applying pressure in the other direction: hundreds of worker and peasant strikes and protests - daily.

The real issue with Tibet is the same as with all the strange business of campaigning - in the West - for democracy - in China. It's not about restoring feudalism in Tibet - it's about the ongoing battle to restore stable capitalist property relations in China.

RedStarOverChina
18th December 2006, 23:07
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2006 10:46 pm
--PREACHY MODE ON---

1)the nature of human life is suffering - all beings grow old, weak, sick and die. in that time, most of us spend our few good days in misery.

2)psychological suffering comes from desire - desire for sensation and desire for material things. either the desire is sated, which then leads to even greater desire, or it can't be satisfied, and it torments us.

3)desire comes from attachment - attachment to things, to ideas, to the material world, the evidence of our senses.

4)attachment can be alleviated and suffering ameliorated by leading an ethical life of meditation and compassion.

the middle path: no one can be expected to be happy or be able to be happy unless they have full access to enough food, water, shelter and healthcare. too much of these things also prohibits happiness - it can become an addiction and addiction is slavery.

the boddhisattva vow: i will not seek my own transformation into nirvana until all sentient beings have access to the requirements of the middle path and full access to information, including the dharma. my suffering will not end until all suffering has ended, as all beings are one being.

--PREACHY MODE OFF--

Funny you didn't mention reincarnation...As it is a central theme of Buddhist theology---Upon which all other concepts (Such as the state of "nirvana" and "parinirvana") are based on.

I'd like to see you "scientifically" prove reincarnation. Not that I haven't had it "explained" to me by Buddhist monks. But because they didn't claim to be "scientific".

ichneumon
19th December 2006, 20:35
Reincarnation is not a simple physical birth of a person; for instance, John being reborn as a cat in the next life. In this case John possesses an immortal soul which transforms to the form of a cat after his death. This cycle is repeated over and over again. Or if he is lucky, he will be reborn as a human being. This notion of the transmigration of the soul definitely does not exist in Buddhism.

Reincarnation Intro (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/reincarnation.htm)


In theological discussion with religious leaders, I often ask what their response would be if a central tenet of their faith were disproved by science. When I put this question to the current, Fourteenth, Dalai Lama, he unhesitatingly replied as no conservative or fundamentalist religious leaders do: In such a case, he said, Tibetan Buddhism would have to change.

Even, I asked, if it's a really central tenet, like (I searched for an example) reincarnation?

Even then, he answered. However - he added with a twinkle - it's going to be hard to disprove reincarnation.

-Carl Sagan, Demon Haunted World

reincarnation is a complex issue - one that the buddha himself advised his followers to regard as impractical or useless. buddhism is about ending suffering NOW - asking about reincarnation is compared to having an arrow stuck in your chest, then stopping the doctor to ask "where was it made, who shot it and why?". tibetans are very fond of the idea, but, as you see, even the DL doesn't consider it essential.



NB - this thread is not about arguing about buddhism, which has already been done to death. however, reply regards tibetan buddhism in some fashion, so it's kinda valid. if y'all'd like to argue about buddhism in general YET AGAIN, please start a new thread.