Wealth and Making Money in a revolutionary society

[AlwaysAnarchy]

I have been reading a bit about revolution, communism and how a post-revolutionary society would look and I am confused on some points.

I understand that, in a revolutionary society, basic needs would be taken care of, but beyond that would people be able to make and accumulate money? Will differences of income and wealth persist but just be much more equal than it is now? Or will differences in income and wealth be abolished completely leaving only complete equality between everyone??

I read something in here about someone quoting Karl Marx saying that "Communism will deprive no man the means of appropriation the products of society" What exactly is meant by that? Is he stating here that people would become rich possibly in a communist society and that all that will end is the exploitative part??

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Sorry one last thing: Before everyone answers I would like to know is if this is still a very controversial topic among leftists and revolutionaries, or is there more or less a consensus on this issue?

[Aurora]

I understand that, in a revolutionary society, basic needs would be taken care of, but beyond that would people be able to make and accumulate money?
Money will not exist as there will be no need for it.People will take according to need and give according to ability.At least in the later stage of communism.

Will differences of income and wealth persist but just be much more equal than it is now? Or will differences in income and wealth be abolished completely leaving only complete equality between everyone??
Private property will become public property.In the later stage of communism there will be economic equality,just as all other forms of inquality will cease to exist.

I read something in here about someone quoting Karl Marx saying that "Communism will deprive no man the means of appropriation the products of society" What exactly is meant by that? Is he stating here that people would become rich possibly in a communist society and that all that will end is the exploitative part??
"Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society;all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriation"
Communism stops no person using the goods of society,all it does is take away their power to exploit labour by use of those products.

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Well what about in the "first stage" of communism? I think that's more relevant to us right now since the first stage would be the one that we encounter first and would have to deal with first. So what happens in that "first stage"?



"Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society;all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriation"
Communism stops no person using the goods of society,all it does is take away their power to exploit labour by use of those products.

So who says that money will be abolished? (Marx, Bakunin, Engles?) And who will do the abolishing?

How will people "acquire" things like say, video games, computers, TVs stuff outside of the basic needs??

And money will only be abolished in the "later" stage of communism, so what about the first one? What is the role of money there?

Sorry for asking so many questions, but I am very curious about all this and want to learn!! :)

[Aurora]

I would recommend reading The Communist Manifesto its very informative as a beginers guide to communism.

[Aurora]

Well what about in the "first stage" of communism? I think that's more relevant to us right now since the first stage would be the one that we encounter first and would have to deal with first. So what happens in that "first stage"?
The first stage of communist society is socialism(the dictatorship of the proletariat).Socialism is a post-revolutionary time when the workers seize control of the means of production and organize society in the interest of the vast majority(the proletariat) and repress the tiny minority(the bourgeoisie) eventualy the bourgeoisie will dissapear because they have no one to exploit and when the bourgeoisie cease to exist the state will have no reason to exist.(as the state is a tool for the oppression of one class by another)So the state will whither away.


So who says that money will be abolished? (Marx, Bakunin, Engles?) And who will do the abolishing?
As far as i am aware Marx and Bakunin were in agreement on the abolishion of currency.The proletariat organized as the ruling class will decide how society is run.


Sorry but im in a hurry,ill answer the rest later

[crippled sloth]

Depends who you ask. The exact set up of a post revolutionary society is what separates most of the different leftist factions - so yes, its a point of contention.

The history books will show you what the first stages of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" will look like in the oppinion of lenninists/maoists. As for other marxists you are better off asking someone else.

The position of most anarchists is that many different arrangements will be tried (in different areas), and the best ones selected by direct democracy.

I am most familiar with the syndicalist version (which actually happened for a bit in spain). Basically, the land and means of production (MOP) will be expropriated by the unions or syndicates. These will elect representatives who will run things day to day, with policy decided by direct democracy. A similar organisation will be set up to coordinate the syndicates, with goods produced/distributed on the basis of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". Those who dont want to join syndicates/collectives (or those who do in their free time) are permited to engage in "free enterprise", providing they do not employ anyone or use large ammounts of land/MOP - thus depriving others of them. People are free to trade goods as they wish (just not land or MOP)

Ideally, people would just take the goods they wanted (this happened in some parts of spain), but when goods are scarce various forms of voucher system or money are retained

[Floyce White]

I smash the myth of a "lower stage" of communism in my Antiproperty (http://www.geocities.com/antiproperty/index.html) essays. It's petty-capitalist propaganda to assert that workers should save some methods of exploitation and abuse in order to use them to build a society without exploitation and abuse. The petty rich propagate this idea in order to co-opt the workers to fight for petty-capitalist revolution over their big-capitalist rivals.

[norwegian commie]

nobody answered this "How will people "acquire" things like say, video games, computers, TVs stuff outside of the basic needs??"

[crippled sloth]

Yes I did. Ideally, under anarcho-syndicalism, people take what they want from the produce of the coordinated syndicates (as happened in some parts of spain). In times of scarcity, there would be some kind of rationing or voucher system.

[Aurora]

I smash the myth of a "lower stage" of communism in my Antiproperty essays. It's petty-capitalist propaganda to assert that workers should save some methods of exploitation and abuse in order to use them to build a society without exploitation and abuse. The petty rich propagate this idea in order to co-opt the workers to fight for petty-capitalist revolution over their big-capitalist rivals.
:rolleyes: wow you must be the first person in the world to prove marxism wrong.bravo

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2006 04:07 pm





So who says that money will be abolished? (Marx, Bakunin, Engles?) And who will do the abolishing?

I'm not certain but I think those who first called for abolishing money were the anarchist communists like Kropotkin. I'm sure Marx and Engles envisioned a moneyless society but I'm not sure if they wrote about that.


How will people "acquire" things like say, video games, computers, TVs stuff outside of the basic needs??

Necessities are distributed to everyone based on need. Luxuries will be given to everyone who wants them if the supplies allow for it.

As someone mentioned above, in anarchist syndicalist theory there will be syndicates that control production/distribution. There are different syndicates for different fields, food, housing, etc. These syndicates will take count of what needs to be produced in order to cover everyone in need/want.


And money will only be abolished in the "later" stage of communism, so what about the first one? What is the role of money there?

Money will be abolished as soon as it can be. Theorizing about "first and second stages" is pointless. Of course the revolution will not be completed right away, however we can't make decisions about progress when we have no clue how fast it will happen. In Spain during the civil war, some collectives had already started abolishing money within the first year or so. So when will money be abolished? As soon as possible.

[perdido]

Well as a somewhat "computer geek" it is my hope that computers and related technology will no longer be a luxury and will become a tool. With computers and the internet at the disposal of everyone decisions could be made in a instant. perhaps with a simple poll system displaying what everyone wants. Remember the book was considered a luxury at one time too. And video games will result from people creating games because they want to which is how most game designers start off even in capitalist societys. people will make music, movies, clothes simply because they want to and if enough people want these objects they can collectively decide to support the manufacuring of them and everyone will benefit.

[RNK]

nobody answered this "How will people "acquire" things like say, video games, computers, TVs stuff outside of the basic needs??"

There will be people producing these commodities as well, and they will be distributed much like any other commidity. One of the reasons for the reliance upon industrialization in Communist theory is undoubtedly because a massive industry will be needed in order to produce enough commodities for the masses (the "over-production phase"). How it will happen is an unknown, as it has never come up. One theory could be that it would be much the same as today, except minus the money. An individual or group of individuals will get together to develop a video game, and once it is completely, will organize with a factory to produce the game, and organize with distributors to make them available everywhere. From there, you'd be free to pick a copy up at your local video game outlet.

[More Fire for the People]

The communist ‘system’ [more like anti-system] operates on the principle of ‘from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs’. In German, Marx used the word ‘fähigkeiten’ for abilities which has, at least according to LEO, the various meanings of abilities, faculties, features, fitness, and skills. In the E&P manuscripts he uses the word ‘fähigkeiten’ with ‘anlagen’ to describe man’s natural instincts. The communist system as the outcome of rule of the proletariat would place these ‘instincts’ on a higher level embracing man’s intellectual and practical advancements upon instinctual capacities. So, under communism, each person will be able to fulfil their needs through the mere use of their natural abilities.

[BobKKKindle$]

The original poster asked if one would be free to make money and accumulate wealth if one desires more than the basic necessities that will be provided. This suggests he is in fact, despite his name, a mere social democrat who does not recognize the way that Capitalism works.

In answer to your question, no, one would not just be alowed to accumulate money in any way, as there would be a very different form of economic organisation not based on private property (the ownership of property and the sale of labour power being the means by which the Capitalist and Proletarian gain the means to purchase commodities respectively)

The form of economic organisation under Socialism is as follows as I understand it: THe most important change that will occur during a proletarian revolution will be the change from the private ownership of the means of production to the social ownership of the means of production. This means that the economic assets of a community will not be under the control of the Capitalists and based upon the accumulation of Capital, but will instead by owned by the Workers themselves and geared towards the fulfillement of the material needs of the general community.. These Economic Assets are not limited to the means of production persay (the means of production being the objects that are used in the production process but are not consumed in the production of a commodity) but will also include land and natural resources.

The Workers will have control over the organistion of their enterprises in terms of the quanitity and type of commodity that they produce, work complexes, and the production process. They will have ownership over the goods and services that they produce. Consequently, If a medium of exchange exists, the 'money' that is earned through the selling of these commodities will not be recieved by the Capitalist by virtue of his property ownership, but will be divided in a fair and egalitarian manner amongst all the workers.

A range of basic services will be provided at no monetary cost by the local commune, Soviet, or Central Government (depending on the form of political organisation) These services include a standard level of nutrition, Healthcare, housing, education, pension, and public transport. Likewise, the political unit that is responsible for the community's needs will also provide a garuentee of employment.

Try reading some leftist material sometime Peacefulanarchist.