Forcing beliefs upon the proletariat

[Colombia]

When and if the proletariat comes to power by an overthrow of the capitalists and the creation of a socialist state is implemented, I feel that a strong central government should be created for the sole purpose of ensuring that no social beliefs that come about from ignorance continue to live on. This is especially so in regards to social issues and the bias that will most likely still exist in the early stages of the socialist state.

Now an example of this would be racism. While it isn't as much an issue as it was during the time of Marx, how would you combat it? During the time of Marx and how he saw the world, it seems this would be the only solution (unless Marx wrote something about such things which I have yet to find). It still can be applied to our times as well. The only solution I have come up with is by simply forcing it upon people until it becomes the norm. Just look at Brown V. Board of Education. It had to be enforced by the US army in certain areas because of refusal to integrate. Simply put the majority of the proletariat may still have a bias towards something, even in our times. So stamping this out in all forms could be a major issue.

I've just given a broad intepretation of what I feel needs to be done. Obviously a strong central government ideal may raise some eyes here but I would like to see how you handle the situation. I know most people will say education but still that is a really long term solution.

[bcbm]

Big government shoving things down people's throats hasn't gone over very well historically. And, of course, your assumption that the under-classes are just too dumb to understand the concept of equality and need the government (run by "smart" people like you, no doubt) to show them (or rather force them to forget) the error of their ways is paternalist as hell, and reeks of someone more interested in controlling the oppressed than joining them in their fight for liberation.

[Colombia]

There were some still dumb 40 years ago about racial equality until the US government forced it "down their throats."

[MrDoom]

I do not think 'forcing belief' is beneficial nor neccessary. However, suppression of public expression of racism, sexism, religion, etc.; should be enforced by the workers.

EDIT: Typo'ed majorly.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2006 05:20 pm
There were some still dumb 40 years ago about racial equality until the US government forced it "down their throats."
And we've clearly seen how well that has worked, haven't we? With all the racial equality everywhere around us.

You can teach them to fish or give them fish. I want to teach them how to think for themselves so I don't have to continuously watch over them. I don't think they take so long to learn that I need to give them fish while I teach them. Perhaps you do.

[Hit The North]

People's ideas are linked to their material circumstances. Inequality and competition allow divisive ideas like racism to flourish.

The point is that a racist and divided working class would be unable to enact a revolution in the first place. The realization of workers' unity, necessary for communist revolution, will put an end to reactionary doctrines like racism. The working class changes itself as a necessary consequence of its attempt to change society.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2006 06:14 pm




When and if the proletariat comes to power by an overthrow of the capitalists and the creation of a socialist state is implemented, I feel that a strong central government should be created for the sole purpose of ensuring that no social beliefs that come about from ignorance continue to live on.

People should be able to say and believe whatever they wish. If we repress things that are different than ourselves (e.g. fascists, hardcore capitalists,) we become as bad as the aforementioned.


Now an example of this would be racism. While it isn't as much an issue as it was during the time of Marx, how would you combat it? During the time of Marx and how he saw the world, it seems this would be the only solution (unless Marx wrote something about such things which I have yet to find). It still can be applied to our times as well. The only solution I have come up with is by simply forcing it upon people until it becomes the norm. Just look at Brown V. Board of Education. It had to be enforced by the US army in certain areas because of refusal to integrate. Simply put the majority of the proletariat may still have a bias towards something, even in our times. So stamping this out in all forms could be a major issue.

I've just given a broad intepretation of what I feel needs to be done. Obviously a strong central government ideal may raise some eyes here but I would like to see how you handle the situation. I know most people will say education but still that is a really long term solution.

Racism is nearly as bad as it was in the sixties. The only thing that has drasticly changed is that the repression of the black worker has shifted to more economic forms of oppression.

[Janus]

There were some still dumb 40 years ago about racial equality until the US government forced it "down their throats."
Obviously, political and economic equality must be the first targets during and after a revolution. However, you can only change people's opinions and views so far. I think the more important issue is that political and economic equality should do bridge some of the gaps that allow these discriminatory views to take hold. However, I would think that the problems of racism,etc. would be dealt with before a revolution as globalization increases and as the working class gains increasing class consciousness.

[Anton]

i understand where you are coming from but I disagree with the idea of a Totalitarian thought police type of thing.
Maybe i don't understand something yet as I am very much still learning but unless this government is operated under some sort of worker's democracy, it will just be another USSR, imho

[MrDoom]

However, I would think that the problems of racism,etc. would be dealt with before a revolution as globalization increases and as the working class gains increasing class consciousness.
One would think class unity would be a prerequisite for class consciousness and revolution.

[Whitten]

I fail to see what the problem is with oppressing oppressors. Its not fascism, its creating a system in which people cant be racist (for example). Theres nothing wrong with using the threat of force against such people.


i understand where you are coming from but I disagree with the idea of a Totalitarian thought police type of thing.
Maybe i don't understand something yet as I am very much still learning but unless this government is operated under some sort of worker's democracy, it will just be another USSR, imho

1) The USSR was a workers Democracy

2) I dont remember him suggesting this hypothetical government wouldnt be.

[Tekun]

Indoctrinating can never accomplish anything positive: u can't expect a group of ppl to accept and adopt a position because u say so
Furthermore, have u ever considered the negative effects that "forcing beliefs on the prole" would create? Therez a myriad of negatives
Ignorance is done away with when one becomes educated on the subject in question, and one begins to think outside the socially constructed norms
Liberating ourselves from capitalist oppression would liberate our minds from what we were spoon fed by that very same capitalist society

If by "securing that no social beliefs come about" u mean making sure that discrimination and institutionalized racism are not tolerated in employment, education, and the like...then I agree with u
However, if u think that the state should force ppl to believe the "common sense," than I dissent

Like others mentioned, racism and discrimination arise from material conditions and the need for a scapegoat
Therefore if a socialist state were to rise, racism would by the sheer nature of equality in a socialist state, be remote and scarce
In addition, under socialism society would still be developing and improving
Any faults or ignorance would be dealt with according to communist principles and a general concensus
My guess is that the state and its citizens would agree to form groups which would meet with ppl who held racist beliefs, and at these meeting they would prove the ridiculousness and stupidity of racism, thus erasing that flaw from society
If an individual chose to ignore or disregard these study groups, then further action would be voted for and then taken

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by "Colombia"+--> ("Colombia")When and if the proletariat comes to power by an overthrow of the capitalists and the creation of a socialist state is implemented, I feel that a strong central government should be created for the sole purpose of ensuring that no social beliefs that come about from ignorance continue to live on. This is especially so in regards to social issues and the bias that will most likely still exist in the early stages of the socialist state.[/b]

My first issue with this argument is semantics. A ‘socialist state’ is a misnomer. The state is an institution of class rule; it acts as an agent — literally the legal superstructures — of the mode of production but the confines of capitalism are not limited to the state. Likewise, a workers’ state is an agent of the socialist mode of production but the state isn’t the end-all of socialism. Marx espoused this notion in the Critique of the Gotha Programme:


Originally posted by "Marx"@
Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.

Now my second issue is with the line of argument stating that a strong central government is necessary for combating ignorance. One does not combat ignorance with bureaucratism but with education.


"Marx"
"Elementary education by the state" is altogether objectionable. Defining by a general law the expenditures on the elementary schools, the qualifications of the teaching staff, the branches of instruction, etc., and, as is done in the United States, supervising the fulfillment of these legal specifications by state inspectors, is a very different thing from appointing the state as the educator of the people! Government and church should rather be equally excluded from any influence on the school.

Antonio Gramsci speaks of how two ‘societies’ exist — political society and civil society. The political society exists as the police, the army, the legal system, and so on while the civil society exists as the non-state sections of society — family, education, economy, etc. A revolution smashes bourgeois political society but civil society is not so easily destroyed. It is necessary to create an alternative proletarian hegemony within civil society to combat the existing bourgeois hegemony. This can only be done critically and independently of state [barring aid from the state].

[Colombia]

How has the lack rights for homosexuals been a result of material conditions here in the USA?

Education takes too long sometimes though. Waiting 100 years for
education to work does not seem a suitable solution to me.

[Comrade_Scott]

I agree sometimes focing things on people is the only way to go..... racism and homophobia are here now and insted of wating and watching people gradually learn the errors of that form of thinking(which may take many decades) we could just force these belifes on them.... but it is a fine line between focing good thing and then just being a screwed up state

[La Comédie Noire]

The point is that a racist and divided working class would be unable to enact a revolution in the first place.

Well put.

Something I'd just like to add to the discussion.

Firstly let me say racism just doesn't come from anywhere.

Let us take african slavery in the united states as an example . Despite what U.S text books convey racism just didnt fall out of the sky.(IE. White people didnt just automatically dislike black people because they looked diffrent) The color line was created by rich, white, land owners to keep indentured white servants and white workers from joining forces with black slaves in a collective out rage against the horrible conditions in the colonies.

Racism has been and continues to be used by the Burgeoisie to keep the prolitariate safely divided.

Secondly, we do need a strong worker's state to:

Plan the Economy

Centralize the means of production

Rebuild Society in a post Capitalist world.

Deal With World Crisis


We don't need a state to:

Force Beleifs

Punish people

"Look After" people

[Tekun]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2006 11:11 pm
How has the lack rights for homosexuals been a result of material conditions here in the USA?

Education takes too long sometimes though. Waiting 100 years for
education to work does not seem a suitable solution to me.
Homophobia is perpetuated throughout the media and in entertainment
Maybe u haven't noticed, but the church does it pretty good job of lulling the working class to sleep, while also feeding them homophobia

Waiting 100yrs is better than programming many to believe and not question a specific issue or policy

[rouchambeau]

You don't need a strong centralized state to get such a thing done.

[La Comédie Noire]

You don't need a strong centralized state to get such a thing done.

I'm not arguing a strong centralized state is the only way to get those things done. I'm saying that if we are to have a worker's state that it would be best if it performs those functions.

[harris0]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2006 02:16 pm
1) The USSR was a workers Democracy

hahaha

[Dimentio]

Forcing beliefs always backfire.

In UK, about 30% of the population is christian, in Sweden about 45% and in Russia about 75%. In which of these countries did they raze churches? As long as the religious group in question does'nt work to harm other citizens or overthrow society, let them exist. That will moderate most of them, and alienate the worst extremists. The only exception is USA.

[Pow R. Toc H.]

Forcing people to not believe certain things seems a just a little authoritarian to me. You cant make people not be racist/sexist/homophobic all you can do is make sure that they dont preach it in public. Your idea is silly. Eventually the people who are racist will do something racist.

[Colombia]

Originally posted by Tekun+December 08, 2006 11:00 am--> (Tekun @ December 08, 2006 11:00 am)
[email protected] 01, 2006 11:11 pm
How has the lack rights for homosexuals been a result of material conditions here in the USA?

Education takes too long sometimes though. Waiting 100 years for
education to work does not seem a suitable solution to me.
Homophobia is perpetuated throughout the media and in entertainment
Maybe u haven't noticed, but the church does it pretty good job of lulling the working class to sleep, while also feeding them homophobia

Waiting 100yrs is better than programming many to believe and not question a specific issue or policy [/b]
So then shouldn't we force the destruction of organized religion? It would make perfect sense to me.

[Dimentio]

Heh... Russia is probably the most racist, sexist and homophobic country in Europe.

[encephalon]

As anti-authoritarian and anti-paternalism as I am, I think it's a mistake for people to automatically resist an idea merely because it's authoritarian.

If someone refuses to share in three centuries, should they not be forced to do so by society? This is both authoritarian and paternalistic.

If someone want to beat their children, should they not be stopped? Stopping them is both authoritarian and paternalistic.

And so on and on and on and on.

The point being, it isn't a matter of authoritarian vs. libertarian. They aren't always on opposite ends of the spectrum.

[Dimentio]

That is only to stop them from harming others.

But I think it should be legal to hate others, but not to actually harm them out of any reason.