Was Abraham Lincoln a Communist?

[Comrade Gorley]

http://www.heritagesurveys.com/lincoln.jpg

Yes, it's true. That all-American prez with a Biblical first name, that unforgettable countenance and that "air" of patriotism could well have been a socialist. At first the only communistic trait I noticed as that he helped blacks gain some equality (for their time) but I've recently discovered that at least one of his biographers called him a socialist.

http://www.patriotist.com/abarch/ab20020225.htm

For more information on his personal politics, here's a list of Lincoln quotes:

http://home.att.net/~rjnorton/Lincoln78.html

[Donut Master]

Gorley, I must disagree here. Abraham Lincoln, a socialist?


http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/bullshit.jpg

I'm afraid whoever wrote that ol' Abe was a "socialist" is full of, well... The truth about the Emancipation Proclamation is that it did not include slave states declared as loyal to the union. It only declared slaves "free" in Confederate slave states, which is really just rhetoric. It's not like the South was going to suddenly stand up and say "Woah... hey! Abe said we can't have slaves anymore... better do as he says." The Emancipation Proclamation was a political move. Before this famous document, in fact, Abe could be considered very racist - he came into the White House with the idea that these two races were not destined to get along, and advocated deporting blacks to Africa. In addition, he supported the Fugitive Slave Act, a brutally repressive law which hunted down black slaves to return them to their owners. Yes, your beloved Abraham was a white supremacist. Sorry to burst your bubble.

As for all those quotes about "freedom" and "equality", that's the same rhetoric that American presidents have always used. Does that mean they really mean what they say? Quotes are worthless.

(Edited by Donut Master at 4:47 am on May 7, 2003)

[Comrade Gorley]

Donut (if I may call you that),

Nah, you didn't burst my bubble as I wasn't really all that concerned. I just thought it was a bit interesting.

And those are reasonably good points, but the statement you made about quotes puzzles me somewhat. Your signature is a quote from Carl Oglesby, so you're contradicting yourself, unless that particular statement refered to presidents in particular. If so, please correct me.

Also (although I'm not saying he WASN'T a white supremist), just because Abe supported blacks being hunted down doesn't mean he WAS a white supremist. Stalinism is clearly not communism yet the Communist party was cheering Stalin on during the Cold War. George Lincoln Rockwell was a WWII flying ace but still said later that he wished he'd been on the other side (see my "Patron Saint of Capitalism" post).

Anyway. Nice talking to you-

but never, EVER call any political figure "my beloved" again, or I will hunt you down and shove the Declaration of Independance up your ass. After a heavy sampling of caffeine. Or something. :cheesy:

(Edited by Comrade Gorley at 4:58 am on May 7, 2003)

[Robot Rebellion]

Lincoln was a violent warmonger, election fixing, blatantly racists, fascist scalawag. He was sort of clueless on the capitalism issue.

"Property is the fruit of labor...property is desirable...is a positive good in the world. That some should be rich shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built."

Sigh, Lincoln, we serfs can't all be feudal barons, for they need serfs themselves...

Some lucid moments:

"These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in concert to fleece the people, and now that they have got into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to appropriate the people's money to settle the quarrel."

"The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, and more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces as public enemies, all who question it's methods or throw light upon it's crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the Bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe.. corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money powers of the country will endeavor to prolong it's reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few, and the Republic is destroyed."

Supposedly Marx and Lincoln exchanged letters. Not sure if much came out of that. My guess he only used capitalist or ant-capitalist quotes to gain support as needed from his continuants, and didn’t have a care one way or the other, about the issue.

[Donut Master]

And those are reasonably good points, but the statement you made about quotes puzzles me somewhat. Your signature is a quote from Carl Oglesby, so you're contradicting yourself, unless that particular statement refered to presidents in particular. If so, please correct me.

I was specifically referring to the quotes on that page, however, quotes in general are insufficient to back up an argument. They may be catchy to read, but that's about it.

but never, EVER call any political figure "my beloved" again, or I will hunt you down and shove the Declaration of Independance up your ass. After a heavy sampling of caffeine. Or something.

:o

[Comrade Gorley]

Donut,

I agree with you on another point, that quotes are catchy and effective, but it annoys me when people use them as arguements for their particular belief system.

"Einstein was a communist!" etc. proves nothing. If anything, it's almost a cop-out. Einstein may have been a brilliant physicist but his personal opinions were worth nothing more than anyone else's opinion. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he was socialist but I really hate it when it's used as an arguement.

I use a quote from "Utopia" and have Sir Thomas More as my avator but trying to loop a bunch of people onto your side will only result in a pointless petty conflict which is the equivalent of a children's arguement. Besides, often times it's a matter of opinion what their political beliefs were (I understand you and I differ on Jesus' beliefs) and discussing THOSE only detracts from the big picture (although they can prove interesting).

[redstar2000]

#Moderation Mode

Belongs in the History forum, I think.

:cool:

Moved here (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=26&topic=361)

[Severian]

No, but there's an interesting letter from Marx to Lincoln...and a reply from Lincoln to Marx. (Formally, it's from the International Working Men's association, the First International, rather than under Marx's own name.) It's not about communism, but about the Civil War, which Marx viewed as a revolutionary war against slavery. Lincoln thanked the IWMA for their support.

Lincoln played an important role in carrying through the Second American Revolution against slavery, albeit reluctantly and hesitantly at first, and communists should honor him for it. Despite his racial prejudices and other hangups.

But he was a bourgeois revolutionary, not a communist.

[truthaddict11]

here is your "socialist" and "equality" Lincoln in all his glory
"the Negro is not my equal in many respects- certainly not in colour, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowments"

"I am not, nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office. There is a physical difference between the white and black races, which, I believe, will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. I as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race"

As a socialist this man recieves absolutly no respect from me

[Urban Rubble]

I know this doesn't really matter, but I'll say it anyway. You all support Castro right, I know I do, well he considers Abraham Lincoln one of his heroes. I'm not saying that you have to like him because of that, I just thought it was odd.

[Comrade Gorley]

And the Beatles despite being mostly secular respected Jesus and originally wanted him on the cover of Sgt Peppers. (And please don't bring up that 1966 interview. John said he was more popular than Jesus, not that he was better.) Just because you disagree with someone's personal politics doesn't mean you can't respect their work.

But interesting comment, Urban.

[truthaddict11]

Quote: from Urban Rubble on 7:58 pm on May 8, 2003
I know this doesn't really matter, but I'll say it anyway. You all support Castro right, I know I do, well he considers Abraham Lincoln one of his heroes. I'm not saying that you have to like him because of that, I just thought it was odd.


I dont support Castro,
remember he also respected Benito Mussolini at one time. i really dont care about Lincoln being one of his heros. I still have little respect for any american president.


concerning the "bigger than Jesus" thing with the Beatles was during a disussion about the loss of faith and church attendence among people. thats all we should talk about the Beatles though if you want to talk about it in Music

[Urban Rubble]

I knwo, like I said, I wasn't using that as a reason to call Lincoln a hero, I just thought that was an odd fact.

Che called Stalin one of his heroes, Che is one of my heroes but I don't admire Stalin.

[Reuben]

From what i know Lincoln was essentialy a bourgoir revolutionary. The conflict between the north and south was precipitated partly by a legitimate disgust at the treatment of slaves, but partly because northern capitalists wished to absorb slaves into the capitalist labour market. While this was progress, in the sameway that the french revolution was progressive, over-seeing a transition from slavery to wage labour does not make Lincoln a socialist

[GCusack]

Abraham Lincoln had planned the Emancipation Proclimation for two reasons; To free the slaves, thats the first but not the main! The main reason was to prevent the British and French getting involved on the side of the Confederacy and support a war from the side of the slave owners fighting abolishioners,. it would be imposible for them to justify because they had already disolved slavery!

[Pete]

Have you been reading any Harry Turtledove recently? (To those who agree with the topic statement)