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Capitalist Lawyer
24th November 2006, 18:31
It's a very long read but worth it. I highlighted the parts that I felt were important and ommitted the irrelevant information.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_4_working_poor.html


The Myth of the Working Poor
Steven Malanga


Forty years ago a young, radical journalist helped ignite the War on Poverty with his pioneering book The Other America. In its pages, Michael Harrington warned that the recently proclaimed age of affluence was a mirage, that beneath the surface of U.S. prosperity lay tens of millions of people stuck in hopeless poverty that only massive government intervention could help.

Today, a new generation of journalists is straining to duplicate Harrington's feat—to convince contemporary America that its economic system doesn't work for millions and that only government can lift them out of poverty. These new journalists face a tougher task than Harrington's, though, because all levels of government have spent about $10 trillion on poverty programs since his book appeared, with disappointing, even counterproductive, results. And over the last four decades, millions of poor people, immigrants and native-born alike, have risen from poverty, without recourse to the government programs that Harrington inspired.

But brushing aside the War on Poverty's failure and the success of so many in climbing America's economic ladder, this generation of authors dusts off the old argument for a new era. Books like Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed and David Shipler's The Working Poor tell us that the poor are doing exactly what America expects of them—finding jobs, rising early to get to work every day, chasing the American dream—but that our system of "carnivorous capitalism" is so heavily arrayed against them that they can't rise out of poverty or live a decent life. These new anthems of despair paint their subjects as forced off welfare by uncompassionate conservatives and trapped in low-wage jobs that lead nowhere. They claim, too, that the good life that the country's expanding middle class enjoys rests on the backs of these working poor and their inexpensive labor, so that prosperous Americans owe them more tax-funded help.

Though these books resolutely ignore four decades' worth of lessons about poverty, they have found a big audience. The commentariat loves them. Leftish professors have made them required course reading. And Democratic candidates have made their themes central to the 2004 elections. So it's worth looking closely at what these tomes contend, and at the economic realities that they distort.

To begin with, they follow Harrington's 1962 classic by seeing the poor as victims of forces over which they have no control. From the hills of Appalachia to the streets of Harlem, Harrington had found a generation of impoverished former sharecroppers whose jobs had been replaced by mechanization. For them, the advances that enriched everyone else spelled disaster: "progress is misery" and "hopelessness is the message." Unprepared for life off the farm, many could never find productive work, Harrington argued, and would need perpetual government aid.

But the new thinkers quickly veer to the left of Harrington, following some of his more radical acolytes whose theories produced the War on Poverty's most spectacular disasters. Harrington had seen the poor as victims because they could find no work; his more radical allies, especially a group associated with Columbia University's social-work school, argued that compelling the demoralized inner-city poor to work or take part in training that would fit them for work, instead of giving them unconditional welfare, was itself victimization.

Sympathetic mayors and welfare officials responded to Cloward and Piven's call, boosting benefits, loosening eligibility rules, and cutting investigations of welfare cheating. Welfare rolls soared, along with welfare fraud and illegitimate births. The result was a national backlash that sparked the Reagan administration's welfare spending cuts.

But the Columbia crew left its enduring mark on welfare policy, in the principle that welfare, once a short-term program to help people get back on their feet, should be continuous and come with few restrictions and no stigma. A welfare mother, screaming at New York mayor John Lindsay (responsible for much of the city's rise in welfare cases), expressed the system's new philosophy: "It's my job to have kids, Mr. Mayor, and your job to take care of them." It was a philosophy that bred an urban underclass of non-working single mothers and fatherless children, condemned to intergenerational poverty, despite the trillions spent to help them.

The War on Poverty had failed so far...America needed an even bigger War on Poverty that would turn the country into a European-style social welfare state. Pooh-poohing the work ethic and the dignity of labor, the authors derided calls for welfare reform that would require recipients to work, because that would be mortifying to the poor. "There is nothing ennobling about being forced to please an employer to feed one's children," the authors wrote, forgetting that virtually every worker and business owner must please someone, whether boss or customer, to earn a living. Welfare's true purpose, the book declared, should be to "permit certain groups to opt out of work." (The authors never explained why all of us shouldn't demand the right to "opt out.")

The Mean Season's argument gained little traction, but as the nineties dawned, Ehrenreich found a way to bring Cloward and Piven's socialistic themes successfully into the new decade and beyond. Her 1989 book, Fear of Falling: The Inner Life of the Middle Class, blamed poverty's continued existence in America partly on the Me Generation, which Tom Wolfe had so brilliantly made interesting to the nation. America's emerging professional middle class had started out hopefully in the 1960s, Ehrenreich claims, the inheritor of a liberating cultural revolution. But because that class depended on intellectual capital to make its living, rather than on income from property or investments, it felt a sharp economic insecurity, which by the late 1980s had made it "meaner, more selfish," and (worse still) "more hostile to the aspirations of the less fortunate," especially in its impatience with welfare.

The book vibrates with Ehrenreich's rage toward middle-class Americans. The middle class, she sneers, obsessively pursues wealth and is abjectly "sycophantic toward those who have it, impatient with those who do not." To Ehrenreich, "The nervous, uphill climb of the professional class accelerates the downward spiral of society as a whole: toward cruelly widening inequalities, toward heightened estrangement along class lines, and toward the moral anesthesia that estrangement requires." Ironically, Ehrenreich's economic prescription for a better America was for government to create one gigantic bourgeoisie: "Tax the rich and enrich the poor until both groups are absorbed into some broad and truly universal middle class. The details are subject to debate." Time magazine, the voice of the bourgeoisie, made her a regular columnist.

If the Reagan era could provoke Ehrenreich to such anger, it's no surprise that the 1996 welfare reform heightened her fury. Passed by a Republican-controlled Congress and signed into law by Democratic president Bill Clinton, the legislation ended welfare as an automatic federal entitlement and required states to oblige able-bodied recipients to work. The law put a five-year limit on welfare (the average stay on the rolls had been 13 years) but exempted 20 percent of the cases—roughly equivalent to the portion of the welfare population believed too dysfunctional ever to get off public assistance. After President Clinton signed the bill, Ehrenreich claimed that she had seen the betrayal coming: she'd presciently cast a write-in vote for Ralph Nader in 1992's presidential election. She castigated the Left for its muted response to the new welfare law, though she later praised National Organization for Women president Patricia Ireland's hunger strike protesting the bill.

Ehrenreich's anger propelled her to write Nickel and Dimed. Beginning life as a piece of "undercover journalism" for Harper's, the 2001 book purports to reveal the truth about poverty in post-welfare reform America. "In particular," Ehrenreich asks in the introduction, how were "the roughly four million women about to be booted into the labor market by welfare reform . . . going to make it on $6 or $7 an hour?"

Nickel and Dimed doesn't fuss much with public-policy agendas, messy economic theories, or basic job numbers. Instead, it gives us Ehrenreich's first-person account of three brief sojourns into the world of the lowest of low-wage work: as a waitress for a low-priced family restaurant in Florida; as a maid for a housecleaning service in Maine; and as a women's-apparel clerk at a Minneapolis Wal-Mart. In her journeys, she meets a lively and sympathetic assortment of co-workers: Haitian busboys, a Czech dishwasher, a cook with a gambling problem, and assorted single working mothers. But the focus is mostly on Ehrenreich, not her colleagues.

The point that Nickel and Dimed wants to prove is that in today's economy, a woman coming off welfare into a low-wage job can't earn enough to pay for basic living expenses. Rent is a burden, Ehrenreich discovers. In Florida, she lands a $500-a-month efficiency apartment; in Maine, she spends $120 a week for a shared apartment in an old motel (she turns down a less expensive room elsewhere because it's on a noisy commercial street); in Minneapolis, she pays $255 a week for a moldy hotel room. These seem like reasonable enough rents, except perhaps for Minneapolis, judging from her description of the place. But with her entry-level wages—roughly the minimum wage (when tips are included) as a waitress, about $6 an hour as a maid, and $7 an hour to start at Wal-Mart—Ehrenreich quickly finds that she'll need a second job to support herself. This seems to startle her, as if holding down two jobs is something new to America. "In the new version of supply and demand," she writes, "jobs are so cheap—as measured by the pay—that a worker is encouraged to take on as many as she possibly can."

What's utterly misleading about Ehrenreich's exposé, though, is how she fixes the parameters of her experiment so that she inevitably gets the outcome that she wants—"proof" that the working poor can't make it. Ehrenreich complains that America's supposedly tight labor market doesn't produce entry-level jobs at $10 an hour. For people with no skills, that's probably true in most parts of the country; but everywhere, the U.S. economy provides ample opportunity to move up quickly. Yet Ehrenreich spends only a few weeks with each of her employers, and so never gives herself the chance for promotion or to find better work (or better places to live).

In fact, few working in low-wage jobs stay in them long. And most workers don't just move on quickly—they also move on to better jobs. The Sphere Institute, a California public-policy think tank founded by Stanford University professors, charted the economic path of workers in the state from 1988 to 2000 and found extraordinary mobility across industries and up the economic ladder. Over 40 percent of the lowest income group worked in retail in 1988; by 2000, more than half of that group had switched to other industries. Their average inflation-adjusted income gain after moving on: 83 percent, to over $32,000 a year.

The workers who stayed in retail, moreover, were usually the higher earners, making about $10,000 more a year than the leavers. They had already started improving their lots back in 1988, in other words, and probably elected to stay because they rightly saw further opportunity in retailing, though the study doesn't say what happened to them. The same dynamic occurs in other industries where low-wage jobs are concentrated, the study found: those who do well stay and watch earnings go up; those who feel stuck often depart and see earnings rise, too, as they find more promising jobs. In total, over 12 years, 88 percent of those in California's lowest economic category moved up, their incomes rising as they gained experience on the job and time in the workforce, two things that the marketplace rewards.

If Ehrenreich had given herself 12 months in her low-wage stints, instead of a week or two, she might have worked her way into the lower middle class by the end of her experiment.

Since welfare reform passed, employment among single mothers who'd never previously worked has risen 40 percent. More important, child poverty in single-mother households fell to its lowest point ever just three years after welfare reform became law. Except for a hiccup at the end of the last recession, the poverty rate among those households has continued to drop, down now by about one-third. The New York Times recently reported that "lawmakers of both parties describe the 1996 law as a success that moved millions of people from welfare to work and cut the welfare rolls by 60 percent, to 4.9 million people." Those results belie the hysterical warnings of welfare advocates, Ehrenreich among them, that reform would drastically worsen poverty.

Given that such data subvert Ehrenreich's case against the U.S. economic system, she unsurprisingly puts statistics aside in Nickel and Dimed and instead seeks to paint the low-wage workplace as oppressive and humiliating to workers forced by reformers to enter it. But given the author's self-absorption, what the reader really gets is a self-portrait of Ehrenreich as a longtime rebel with an anti-authoritarian streak a mile wide, who can't stomach the basic boundaries that most people easily accept in the workplace.


Unable to understand why her fellow workers don't share her outrage, this longtime socialist and radical feminist turns on the very people with whom she's trying to sympathize, imagining that they can only accept their terrible exploitation because they've become psychologically incapable of resisting. Why are the maids so loyal to the owner of the cleaning service? she asks. They're so emotionally "needy" that they can't break free, she speculates. Why do Wal-Mart workers accept their place in "Mr. Sam's family" instead of rising in a tide of unionization against the company? The Waltons have hoodwinked them, she surmises, misunderstanding completely the appeal to employees of Wal-Mart's opportunity culture, where two-thirds of management has come up from hourly-employee store ranks and where workers own a good chunk of company stock.

Like some of Ehrenreich's earlier work, Nickel and Dimed is contemptuous of ordinary Americans. Cleaning the homes of middle-class families, she snoops in bookcases and finds mostly writers on the "low end of the literary spectrum"—you know, Grisham, Limbaugh, those kinds of authors. "Mostly though, books are for show," she clairvoyantly concludes. A woman whose home furnishings suggest that she is a Martha Stewart "acolyte" comes in for particularly withering scorn. "Everything about [her home] enrages me," Ehrenreich snaps. She's only slightly less condescending toward the lower middle class. She mocks Wal-Mart's customers for being obese—or at least the "native Caucasians" among them. Ehrenreich doesn't say what she thinks about the body types of middle-income blacks, Latinos, or Asians.

There's other evidence that students aren't buying Ehrenreich's pessimistic line on the U.S. economy. Professor Larry Schweikart, who teaches U.S. economic history at the University of Dayton, assigns his students Nickel and Dimed along with other books that paint a brighter picture of the American economy. Schweikart says that many students quickly grasp what's wrong with Ehrenreich's book. "Many of these kids have worked in the low-wage marketplace, so they are more familiar with it than their professors or media reviewers. They tell me that there are better jobs out there than the ones Ehrenreich stuck herself with, that those jobs aren't long-term, and that they understand that she didn't give herself any time to find better work or advance."

If the holes in Ehrenreich's argument are clear even to some college kids, the logical gaps gape even wider in the 2004 book that hopes to succeed Nickel and Dimed as the definitive left statement on the oppressiveness of low-wage work: The Working Poor, by former New York Times reporter David Shipler. To his credit, Shipler, unlike Ehrenreich, cares enough about the workers who are his subjects to try to give a comprehensive account of their struggles to make it, delving into their lives and addressing important economic and cultural issues head-on. Following Ehrenreich, however, Shipler wants to blame an unjust U.S. economy for the plight of the poor. Yet his own evidence proves a very different, and crucial, point: it's often dysfunctional behavior and bad choices, not a broken economy, that prevent people from escaping poverty.

Consider some of the former welfare recipients Shipler profiles in his chapter called "Work Doesn't Work." Christie, a day-care worker, describes herself as "lazy" for never finishing college (her brother, who did, is an accountant, and her sister is a loan officer). She has had several children out of wedlock with various men, and now lives with one of them—Kevin, an ex-con—in public housing. Christie can't make ends meet, but that's partly because, having never learned to cook, she blows her $138-a-month food-stamp allocation on "an abundance of high-priced, well-advertised snacks, junk food, and prepared meals."

Then there's Debra, who had her first illegitimate child at 18. Forced to work by welfare reform, Debra actually lands a job in a unionized factory—the holy grail of low-wage work to the Left. Unfortunately, she can't adjust to work in the shop, has nightmares about the assembly line, and imagines that the bosses prefer the Hispanic workers to her, since she's black. Shipler understands that with such attitudes, she is unlikely to move up.

Or how about Caroline, who spent years on welfare and has worked various jobs, including at Wal-Mart? She actually owns her own house, though, as Shipler ominously mentions, "it is mostly owned by the bank." (Welcome to the club, Caroline.) Caroline is a victim of the "ruthlessness of the market system," Shipler informs us, because she can't seem to land a promotion. We eventually learn from her caseworkers, however, that she doesn't bathe regularly and smells bad, that when she first divorced she refused her in-laws' offer of help, that she then married a man who beat her (she later left him), and that she keeps managing to get hired but then loses one job after another.

How has the U.S. economy let these workers down? In each of these cases, bad choices have kept someone from getting ahead.

True, since they're illegals, they can't get mainstream jobs with the potential for promotion and benefits. Yet for them, this low-wage work pays off. Pedro earns nine times more working illegally on a North Carolina farm than he did toiling in a Mexican slaughterhouse. He sends from $300 to $500 a month home to his folks. If he works just two more years on the farm, he figures, he'll have enough to build a house in Mexico, and it'll be time to go home. Like many of his countrymen, Pedro is temporarily using America to make up for the Mexican economy's deficiencies. This hardly represents a failure of our economy. Shipler nonetheless finds puzzling the "absence of anger" among these immigrants.

Pointing to illegals like Pedro, who can't take advantage of the larger opportunities that our economy offers, or to people like Debra and Christie, who, every time they start to climb the economic ladder, do something self-destructive that causes them to fall back a few rungs, Shipler claims that economic mobility is vanishing from the United States. Today, he says, low-wage workers can only better themselves if they benefit from a "perfect lineup of favorable conditions."

The Tran family is just such an exception, Shipler thinks. Everything works for these Vietnamese immigrants. Within four months of arriving in the U.S. in 1998, three family members were working, earning $42,848 in their first year in the country. Within five months, the family had earned enough to buy two used cars. Within two years, two children had registered for college. This is a "heroic" success story, in Shipler's view, because for low-wage workers in today's America, "there is no room for mistake or misfortune—not for drugs, not for alcohol, not for domestic violence."

But what the Trans have done, admirable as it is, isn't heroic—or even unusual. In 1990s California, where the Trans did so well, recall that nearly nine out of ten low-wage workers moved up, presumably avoiding the drugs, alcohol, and violence that Shipler wrongly sees as endemic to poverty. The average real income of the low-wage workers in the Sphere Institute study doubled over that time to more than $27,000 a year. Nor is there any evidence, statistically or anecdotally, that such mobility is disappearing from the U.S.

For Shipler, as for Ehrenreich, the U.S. always shortchanges the poor. Education is a prime example, he says. He tours Washington, D.C.'s public schools, where student scores are abysmal and dropout rates are inexcusably high, and—noticing the classrooms' shortages of supplies and books and the nonexistent computers—says that lack of money is to blame. But the notorious failure of D.C.'s public schools has nothing to do with money. Those schools spend some $13,500 per pupil a year—not as much as rich suburban districts, true, but far above the national average and well above what many private schools spend to educate kids effectively. As for the missing supplies and computers, blame a corrupt, dysfunctional system that wastes the more-than-adequate funds. There's no hint of this ongoing scandal in Shipler's book, even though for years the local papers have chronicled it extensively and, in desperation, Mayor Williams and the U.S. Congress have set up a voucher plan to address it.

Shipler's obliviousness to the real causes of poverty also characterizes the latest addition to the "working poor" canon: Joanna Lipper's Growing Up Fast. A sometime documentary filmmaker, Lipper traveled to the once-thriving industrial town of Pittsfield, Massachusetts, in order to chronicle the lives of a generation of teenage unwed mothers. Because many of these young women are daughters of blue-collar workers who lost their jobs as General Electric gradually pulled out of Pittsfield during the 1980s, Lipper blames G.E. and, more broadly, globalization for the social pathology evident in the town today—not just the teen pregnancies but also the rising crime and drug-abuse rates that she says followed G.E.'s departure. The town's youth "have been excluded from the American dream," she writes.

Yet as the tale of Pittsfield and its teens unfolds, a different story emerges, even if Lipper—like Shipler in this regard—seems not to grasp the meaning of her own evidence. We learn, for example, that the town's drug problem actually began in the early 1980s, before G.E. left, after social-services providers opened government-funded drug-treatment centers in the area and imported hundreds of addicts from New York City and elsewhere to receive treatment. Many of these addicts, released from the programs but not fully detoxed, stayed on. They then brought friends and relatives to town and started dealing drugs around local fast-food joints and other spots where teens hung out. Not that all the buyers were kids, let alone "excluded" ones. Fueling the market, we learn, were "doctors from Williamstown and well-to-do people."

The teens get pregnant, as Lipper tells it, because they've got nothing better to do. They feel trapped, because "the major institutions of American life," the job market heading the list, "are not working for them," Lipper says. "[H]ope is the ingredient missing" from their lives. Yet one teen mother, Jessica, confides: "I had so much going for me before I got pregnant." Another, Shayla, herself born to teen parents long before job woes came to Pittsfield, says that she wanted to attend college but didn't work hard enough in high school to get in.

It never occurs to Lipper that teen pregnancy doesn't naturally flow from economic status. After all, millions of impoverished immigrants came to America from Europe in the early twentieth century without illegitimacy getting out of hand, thanks to strong religious traditions that stigmatized illegitimacy. What's really missing from the lives of Pittsfield's unwed mothers isn't hope; it's shame about teenage sex or out-of-wedlock pregnancy. The teens talk openly of early sexual escapades, and matter-of-factly pose for book photos with their illegitimate kids—unsurprising in a culture that glorifies sex and in which movie stars and rock musicians proudly flaunt their out-of-wedlock offspring. The demise of shame is a far more plausible explanation for Pittsfield's teen-pregnancy problem than is economic distress.

Like Shipler, in other words, Lipper has reversed cause and effect. She sees social dysfunction in Pittsfield and blames it on poverty. But it typically is personal failure and social dysfunction that create poverty. To stay out of poverty in America, it's necessary to do three simple things, social scientists have found: finish high school, don't have kids until you marry, and wait until you are at least 20 to marry. Do those three things, and the odds against your becoming impoverished are less than one in ten. Nearly 80 percent of everyone who fails to do those three things winds up poor.

That's a crucial truth that left-wing social thinkers have tried to deny from the earliest days of the welfare-rights movement. And as these books show, even after the conclusive failure of the War on Poverty and the resounding success of welfare reform, they are still at it.

Ol' Dirty
24th November 2006, 19:06
You're addresing this to the wrong crowd. Forward this to Reformist Left. They might have some use for it.

Capitalist Lawyer
24th November 2006, 19:48
It completely shatters the myth of "class warfare" and how the "prolertariat's living standards are declining and the immersation downwards will continue".

Why the need for the "revolution" if things aren't panning out as they were predicted by the Marxists?

Is revolution needed or desired? If so, why?

And it's common knowledge that we aren't living in a truely capitalist society and we'll probably never will (or have).

Therefore, your anti-capitalist beliefs are absurd. Your condemning something that isn't really there.

Ol' Dirty
24th November 2006, 20:15
Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 24, 2006 02:48 pm










It completely shatters the myth of "class warfare" and how the "prolertariat's living standards are declining and the immersation downwards will continue".

Though your article made some good points, it still shatters absolutely nothing. I still assert that as long as the borgoise class controls the means of production, democracy and independance can't exist.

Besides, this is in the U.S., the wealthiest nation in the world. Do you think that the poverty rate is decreasing in Botswana? Kenya? Kazhakstan? Poland? Think again.


Why the need for the "revolution" if things aren't panning out as they were predicted by the Marxists?

But they are.

Still, ten precent of the population of most of the world holds 90% of the capital, with the top 1% controling most of that.

Truly Revolutionary Socialist countries, on the other hand, have some of the highest highest HDI's on the planet, with Cuba being ranked 50th at .826.


Is revolution needed or desired? If so, why?

It is both desired and needed, because the people have nothing to lose but their chains.


Therefore, your anti-capitalist beliefs are absurd. Your condemning something that isn't really there.

:lol:

Read your name, man.

bcbm
25th November 2006, 14:29
But it typically is personal failure and social dysfunction that create poverty. To stay out of poverty in America, it's necessary to do three simple things, social scientists have found: finish high school, don't have kids until you marry, and wait until you are at least 20 to marry. Do those three things, and the odds against your becoming impoverished are less than one in ten. Nearly 80 percent of everyone who fails to do those three things winds up poor.

That's a crucial truth that left-wing social thinkers have tried to deny from the earliest days of the welfare-rights movement.

I skipped to the end. Sue me.

In any case, "left-wing social thinkers" have addressed these issues repeatedly. William Julius Wilson's work comes to mind. Oops. :rolleyes:

uber-liberal
25th November 2006, 23:56
Granted, the American poor have it MUCH easier than the third world does. However, this site isn't only for and by Americans. American corporate capitalism exploits workers over the entire globe, so this argument, as interesting a read as it is, is misplaced here.

encephalon
26th November 2006, 09:59
oh, you silly bourgeoisie. Always forgetting the majority of the human population outside of your own nation. *sigh*

Are you really that myopic, or just unconcerned?

Rawthentic
26th November 2006, 19:20
These low-lifes are always trying to justify capitalism. They cant. We have reason and history on our side.

The Sloth
26th November 2006, 23:02
1) western european capitalism is the exception, not the rule. go ask mugabe what his "structural re-adjustment" concessions have done for zimbabwe.

2) where it is not purely parasitic, it is at least regressive. capitalism raises living standards, but so has every other system in history, including slavery. thus, seek not only the functional (all systems, more or less, are functional), but also the humane.

3) ending exploitation is not the only reason why communism is desirable. the whole idea of democratic participation and self-control is part of it, too. the market, in the hands of a capitalist, is a substitute for human decisions. for communists, markets are mechanical forces that can be tamed for the sake of equality.


also,


These low-lifes are always trying to justify capitalism. They cant. We have reason and history on our side.

unless this is meant to be funny, do explain what the hell you mean. sorry, not everyone understands that "we have reason and history on our side." that's a bit too grandiose to be serious.

so, elaborate.

Tungsten
27th November 2006, 00:11
Muigwithania

I still assert that as long as the borgoise class controls the means of production,
This is still crap; those who own a means of production don't operate as a class.

democracy
Bollocks to democracy. It's overrated and you don't need it to be free or independent anyway.

and independance can't exist
Okay, so you kill the borgoise and the workers take over. At this point, how are you now more independent than before? You're still dependent, just on a different group of people. There is no guarantee this new group will advance your interests.

But they are.

Still, ten precent of the population of most of the world holds 90% of the capital, with the top 1% controling most of that.
The fact that you even consider this relevent demonstrates that you know little about economics, which is another reason you're predictions aren't going to happen.

It is both desired and needed, because the people have nothing to lose but their chains.
You need to stop thinking in slogans and use your brain. It's obviously not desired otherwise it would be happening now, or would have happend in the past. We don't need communism any more than we need religion.
hastalavictoria

These low-lifes are always trying to justify capitalism. They cant. We have reason and history on our side.
You have neither on your side, which is why so many of you advocate violence, revolution and the suppression dissenting views (the falseness of an ideology is proportional to the need to suppress dissent). If you had reason on your side, you would'nt need to do such things.
Brooklyn-Mecca

3) ending exploitation is not the only reason why communism is desirable. the whole idea of democratic participation and self-control is part of it,
Nah. Bullshit. What makes you think you'll be free to do as you please if democracy (other people) decide to force you to do something else? The two are mutually exclusive.

the market, in the hands of a capitalist, is a substitute for human decisions.
The market isn't in the hands of a capitalist, it's in the hands of everyone who participates.

for communists, markets are mechanical forces that can be tamed for the sake of equality.
Which would explain why communism is completely wrong-headed and will never work.

MKS
27th November 2006, 01:06
But it typically is personal failure and social dysfunction that create poverty. To stay out of poverty in America, it's necessary to do three simple things, social scientists have found: finish high school, don't have kids until you marry, and wait until you are at least 20 to marry. Do those three things, and the odds against your becoming impoverished are less than one in ten. Nearly 80 percent of everyone who fails to do those three things winds up poor.

This statement is absurd. First it does not take into account racial or other types of discrimination which have relegated many US citizens to poverty. Second it completely ignores the affects of the capitalist system, it most obvious effect being the stratification of society which creates the necessity of an impoverished class. In order for there to be a top there must be a bottom. And the bottom in the US can be just as bad as some 3rd world nations. This statement also seems to ignore the issue of unemployment; yeah I can finish high school and maybe even college but if there is no body to employ me I’m SOL and all my diplomas and degrees are worthless. The American Capitalist (neo-liberal) systems has caused an increase of unemployment and the dissolution of the middle classes and working classes, it effectively has increased the gap between the haves and have-not's. This to me is the biggest problem facing American workers. Not, 'getting married too early, or having children at a young age'.

The American economic system is to be the most inhumane in the world, it is not "pure capitalism" it is much worse, it is controlled Capitalism, by the state and Corporations (some say there is no longer a difference) it is a threat to the international worker, and to all of humanity. To oversimplify the problems facing the world due to the economic and geopolitical systems is completely asinine. It is thinking like this which has enslaved the majority of mankind for most of recent history.

The Feral Underclass
27th November 2006, 12:36
None of what has been said is at all relevant. Capitalism still exploits and the creation of a communist society would be far better for the world.

I don't give a shit if people in America earn more money than they did 50 years ago, capitalism remains exploitative, oppressive and destructive and the sooner we annihilate it the better.

t_wolves_fan
27th November 2006, 14:53
1) western european capitalism is the exception, not the rule. go ask mugabe what his "structural re-adjustment" concessions have done for zimbabwe.

Mugabe's actions are political and frankly at odds with what capitalism would advocate.


2) where it is not purely parasitic, it is at least regressive. capitalism raises living standards, but so has every other system in history, including slavery. thus, seek not only the functional (all systems, more or less, are functional), but also the humane.

Your quip about slavery is absurd to the point that you should be embarassed that you wrote it.

There's not a lot of evidence that communism would be any more or less humane than capitalism that I've seen.


3) ending exploitation is not the only reason why communism is desirable. the whole idea of democratic participation and self-control is part of it, too. the market, in the hands of a capitalist, is a substitute for human decisions. for communists, markets are mechanical forces that can be tamed for the sake of equality.

There's certainly no evidence that communism would improve an individual's self-control nor his or her ability to participate democratically. The system you advocate would lead to mob rule and the loss of individual rights. Capitalism contains and fosters an incentive for the individual to succeed based on his or her own talents, while communism produces no incentive whatsoever considering your rewards are the same regardless of what you do.

Tungsten
27th November 2006, 14:57
The Anarchist Tension
Don't let reality spoil your utopian daydreaming.

The Feral Underclass
27th November 2006, 17:27
Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2006 03:57 pm
The Anarchist Tension
Don't let reality spoil your utopian daydreaming.
I've been doing alright so far, but thanks for the concern.

Guerrilla22
27th November 2006, 17:30
A uniquely fluid class system that allows for significant upward mobility is “the promise that lies at the heart of the American dream,” according to a New York Times study on class in the United States.20 The ability of the poor and the working class to climb the social ladder has always been exaggerated. But in the early phases of industrial development it had a certain amount of validity. The abundance of cheap land in the West for a time offered workers the opportunity to “retire” from wage labor and become farmers. Each new wave of immigrants would start at the bottom, but might dream of improving their lot by moving up and out of the working class. This provided a safety valve preventing the formation of what Engels called a “permanent proletariat.”21 Once westward expansion had completed its course by the end of the 1890s, however, the safety valve was closed.

But the “dream” never disappeared. Being your own boss-starting up a small business where there aren't any foremen or managers bossing you around-continues to be seen as a way out of the working class. The dream is a backhanded acknowledgement of the alienating, tedious, and unrewarding quality of wage labor. But the dream also has an ideological purpose-to promote the idea that individuals can make something of themselves, not through collective struggle, but by dint of individual spunk and hard work. Conversely, it reinforces the idea that those who are stuck in the working class or in poverty deserve it because they haven't tried hard enough to get out.

How realistic is it for most workers to become their own boss? There are lots of small businesses in the United States, but they are responsible for only a small part of total employment and total wealth. In the United States, there are 3,551 larger firms that employ twenty-five hundred or more workers, accounting for 37 percent of the total workforce and 43 percent of the total payroll. On the other hand, the 3.75 million businesses that employ 9 or fewer workers account for only 11 percent of employment and a paltry 8.7 percent of total payroll.22

The problem with the dream of owning your own business is that it is a precarious existence that often ends in bankruptcy. Only half of newly created small businesses are still in business after four years. Indeed, every year about as many small businesses close as are created. In 2004, for example, 580,900 new small businesses opened, but 576,200 closed-34,317 of these ended in bankruptcy.23

For millions of people, the dream of ownership means pouring your life savings into a business venture that requires endless work and the constant threat of failure to show for it. The small minority that are lucky enough to grow into real businesses end up surviving by exploiting other workers-profiting from the difference between labor's output and labor's pay. That is, by becoming their own boss, they also became someone else's boss.

According to the New York Times study, income mobility in the United States has been on the decline for the last three decades. In the past, notes one Michigan economist cited in the study, “people would say, 'Don't worry about inequality. The offspring of the poor have chances as good as the chances of the offspring of the rich.' Well, that's not true. It's not respectable in scholarly circles anymore to make that argument.”24 According to Sharon Smith, “This is…the first generation of young workers in U.S. history that faces a substantially lower standard of living than their parents.”25

While there are certainly some people who move out of the working class, and some middle-class people who become capitalists, the movement also works in the other direction, toward downward mobility. Whether we use the more superficial measure of income, or whether we use the more accurate measure of class mobility, the overall picture doesn't change much from year to year; income distribution today is as unequal as it was on the eve of the Great Depression.26

The ultimate argument against the dream of upward mobility for the majority is the fact that the economy is a social pyramid; lots of room at the bottom, very little room at the top. Workers in the United States, just like workers everywhere else, can only advance through joint struggle with their class, not by trying to climb out of that class.

http://isreview.org/issues/50/marxism.shtml

KC
27th November 2006, 17:40
It completely shatters the myth of "class warfare" and how the "prolertariat's living standards are declining and the immersation downwards will continue".

The increasing immiseration of the working class isn't a Marxist concept.

t_wolves_fan
27th November 2006, 17:50
Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2006 05:30 pm
Article
I didn't find much about your article that was disagreeable, except its complaint that success in opening a new business isn't guaranteed.

Yet I have no real complaint with the reality it describes. The fact is, people starting their own business has led to progress; an incentive that is lost when societal rewards are guaranteed to be equal.

The Sloth
28th November 2006, 00:45
tongue-stunned,


The market isn't in the hands of a capitalist, it's in the hands of everyone who participates.

hehe, how special -- you can dick around and "participate" to your heart's content, just like in any other system. the only difference is the point.. or, more colloquially, what fucking happens after that.


Nah. Bullshit. What makes you think you'll be free to do as you please if democracy (other people) decide to force you to do something else?

"other people"? shoot 'em.


Which would explain why communism is completely wrong-headed and will never work.


it "would," eh? "would"? sure, but it doesn't. hehe, careful with da conditionals.

anyway, you're all gobbledegook. you drop a lot of tra-la-la and hope that i make sense of it.

bezdomni
28th November 2006, 00:49
Way to only address the United States.

The Sloth
28th November 2006, 00:53
Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2006 12:11 am
The fact that you even consider this relevent demonstrates that you know little about economics, which is another reason you're predictions aren't going to happen.
yowza, while you're confusing acts wif ideas, do you know anything 'bout economics?

Rawthentic
28th November 2006, 00:53
You have neither on your side, which is why so many of you advocate violence, revolution and the suppression dissenting views (the falseness of an ideology is proportional to the need to suppress dissent). If you had reason on your side, you would'nt need to do such things.

If what you were saying were true, then capitalism would (and is) what you say. Its a false ideology because it brutally represses dissent, openly and secretive. We have history on our side because people make history and you are in a utopia if you think that private property is the end of human history. Oh yeah, and history is made through the barrel of a gun. You leeches wouldnt give up our land unless I put a shotgun to your head.

The Sloth
28th November 2006, 01:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2006 02:53 pm
Mugabe's actions are political and frankly at odds with what capitalism would advocate.
ya? the liberalization of a country to 'free trade' is anti-capitalist?


Your quip about slavery is absurd to the point that you should be embarassed that you wrote it.

i don't think you've understood the 'quip' very well. read it over, you might even agree with me.


There's not a lot of evidence that communism would be any more or less humane than capitalism that I've seen.

what exactly are you looking for? i'll wager nothing; demanding results from social science means to think in circles.


There's certainly no evidence that communism would improve an individual's self-control nor his or her ability to participate democratically. The system you advocate would lead to mob rule and the loss of individual rights.

ya, simply because you have no self-control and would rape&pillage in a social situation doesn't mean you have to assume we share your handicap.


while communism produces no incentive whatsoever considering your rewards are the same regardless of what you do.

oh? what i do = no money. yet, i feel quite rewarded.

so, do quantify 'rewards' for me. i think you'll have a very different formula from my own.. and i know why.

RNK
28th November 2006, 01:18
The "evils" of a more equal society can be observed in states like Cuba. Without the incentives of monetary gain, Cuba has suffered such horrors as a massive increase in life expectancy, major boost to quality of life, and one of the highest doctor-patient ratios in the world!

Oh the horrors of a society based on personal freedom of achievement and not the incentives of capital!

Ol' Dirty
28th November 2006, 01:30
Muigwithania

I still assert that as long as the borgoise class controls the means of production,

This is still crap; those who own a means of production don't operate as a class.

I've never seen any poor people owning capital, have you? Ever seen a working girl owning a factory? A farm? A press? Ever seen a steel-mine owner sharing his profits with a proletarian? If you have, you must be smokin' some grade-A shit. Danga Dust? Purple haze? A little too much trampoosin' on the boozin'? Hmm? :huh:


and independance can't exist

Okay, so you kill the borgoise and the workers take over.

Ooh. I think I just gizz my pants.


this point, how are you now more independent than before?You're still dependent, just on a different group of people.

Well, Communism is a theory of interdependance. I really meant that I don't want to be dependant on someone who doesn't contribute anything to society. I suppose that what I should have said is that I'd rather depend on a loving parent (the proletariat) than the creepy guy at the park in the long leather trenchcoat that offers kids candy that I know has raped little kids before (the bourgois). Why? Because my parents have never felt me up before. The other guy is more likely to. Speaking of pedophilles, I happen to be talking to one right now. I really shouldn't be talking to strangers, but I'll give it a try. :rolleyes:


But they are.

Still, ten precent of the population of most of the world holds 90% of the capital, with the top 1% controling most of that.


The fact that you even consider this relevent demonstrates that you know little about economics, which is another reason you're predictions aren't going to happen.

Au contraire. It's kind of freightening that you don't see this to be relavent. :(

hastalavictoria

These low-lifes are always trying to justify capitalism. They cant. We have reason and history on our side.

You have neither on your side, which is why so many of you advocate violence, revolution and the suppression dissenting views (the falseness of an ideology is proportional to the need to suppress dissent). If you had reason on your side, you would'nt need to do such things.

People can say what the fuck they like after the revolution. They merely can't privately own the presses like they diud before. Need I illiterate?

A revolution is not a dinner party. It is not a fanciful ballet. It is not a game. It is the tool by which one class violently overthrows and represses another.

Brooklyn-Mecca

3) ending exploitation is not the only reason why communism is desirable. the whole idea of democratic participation and self-control is part of it,

Nah. Bullshit. What makes you think you'll be free to do as you please if democracy (other people) decide to force you to do something else? The two are mutually exclusive.

No proletarian is going to force any other proletarian to do anything.

Ol' Dirty
28th November 2006, 01:32
Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+November 27, 2006 12:50 pm--> (t_wolves_fan @ November 27, 2006 12:50 pm)
[email protected] 27, 2006 05:30 pm
Article
I didn't find much about your article that was disagreeable, except its complaint that success in opening a new business isn't guaranteed.

Yet I have no real complaint with the reality it describes. The fact is, people starting their own business has led to progress; an incentive that is lost when societal rewards are guaranteed to be equal. [/b]
Equal? Maybe. Fair? DEFFINATELY.

red team
28th November 2006, 07:07
Nah. Bullshit. What makes you think you'll be free to do as you please if democracy (other people) decide to force you to do something else? The two are mutually exclusive.

converse of argument: What makes you think I'll be free to do as I please if oligarchy (a small minority) decide that their freedom of action is more important than my quality of life? There are certain actions that are outlawed because it affects the quality of life of those you affect by those actions and unless you want to be kicked out of society you have to abide by those laws. But, knowing that you are the hypocrite that you are, you would like to have the benefits of society, but none of it's responsibilities.

t_wolves_fan
28th November 2006, 14:38
Originally posted by Muigwithania+November 28, 2006 01:32 am--> (Muigwithania @ November 28, 2006 01:32 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2006 12:50 pm

[email protected] 27, 2006 05:30 pm
Article
I didn't find much about your article that was disagreeable, except its complaint that success in opening a new business isn't guaranteed.

Yet I have no real complaint with the reality it describes. The fact is, people starting their own business has led to progress; an incentive that is lost when societal rewards are guaranteed to be equal.
Equal? Maybe. Fair? DEFFINATELY. [/b]
It's fair that someone who has little or no drive or initiative and isn't a very good worker receives equal societal rewards as someone who has great drive and initiative and invents or makes easily available a product or service that benefits a great many people?

t_wolves_fan
28th November 2006, 14:39
Originally posted by red [email protected] 28, 2006 07:07 am

Nah. Bullshit. What makes you think you'll be free to do as you please if democracy (other people) decide to force you to do something else? The two are mutually exclusive.

converse of argument:
I'd like to see you actually answer the question instead of running away from it.

t_wolves_fan
28th November 2006, 14:40
Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2006 01:18 am
The "evils" of a more equal society can be observed in states like Cuba. Without the incentives of monetary gain, Cuba has suffered such horrors as a massive increase in life expectancy, major boost to quality of life, and one of the highest doctor-patient ratios in the world!

Oh the horrors of a society based on personal freedom of achievement and not the incentives of capital!
Are those things are worth the probability that you'll be jailed for speaking your mind?

I would say "no". You?

Dr. Rosenpenis
28th November 2006, 17:59
Couldn't we just as easily discredit all of the "freedoms" and privileges afforded to American because people have been silenced and oppressed. Arguably at the expense of these priviliges.

Tungsten
28th November 2006, 18:10
red team

converse of argument: What makes you think I'll be free to do as I please if oligarchy (a small minority) decide that their freedom of action is more important than my quality of life?
People act freely every day and do nothing to alter your quality of life. That evidently bothers you.

Does all this mean that you'll be taking slaves after the revolution (who will presumably be made to sacrifice their "less important" freedom of action to improve your "more important" quality of life)?
Brooklyn-Mecca

ya? the liberalization of a country to 'free trade' is anti-capitalist?
Oh yeah, Zimbabwe has all the calling cards of free trade: Heavlily regulated economy, 465% inflation rate, government land seizures, price controls and the abolition of privately owned land. What have you been smoking and where can I get some?

"other people"? shoot 'em.
If those other people comprise a majority, the chances are it will be you staring down the barrel of a gun, not them.

it "would," eh? "would"? sure, but it doesn't. hehe, careful with da conditionals.

anyway, you're all gobbledegook. you drop a lot of tra-la-la and hope that i make sense of it.
Those are your short-comings, not mine.

ya, simply because you have no self-control and would rape&pillage in a social situation doesn't mean you have to assume we share your handicap.
Given some of the posts here, it's a fair assumption.
hastalavictoria

If what you were saying were true, then capitalism would (and is) what you say. Its a false ideology because it brutally represses dissent, openly and secretive.
How and when is it brutally repressing dissent? The fact that you're still alive and outside jail suggests that you're a liar.

We have history on our side because people make history and you are in a utopia if you think that private property is the end of human history.
There's no such thing as the end of history so long as there are people about.

Oh yeah, and history is made through the barrel of a gun. You leeches wouldnt give up our land unless I put a shotgun to your head.
I probably wouldn't. Nor anyone else with a functioning brain.
Muigwithania

I've never seen any poor people owning capital, have you? Ever seen a working girl owning a factory? A farm? A press? Ever seen a steel-mine owner sharing his profits with a proletarian? If you have, you must be smokin' some grade-A shit. Danga Dust? Purple haze? A little too much trampoosin' on the boozin'? Hmm?
Try addressing the point next time by proving that those who own the means of production operate spontaneously as a class. That shouldn't be too difficult, should it?

Well, Communism is a theory of interdependance. I really meant that I don't want to be dependant on someone who doesn't contribute anything to society.
Well you picked the right system for that, didn't you. :rolleyes: The one where no one supposedly has to do any work.

I suppose that what I should have said is that I'd rather depend on a loving parent (the proletariat)
You think other members of the working class "love" you and are willing to carry you because you're also a worker? Sometimes I'd love to see communism happen just to watch it go tits up.

Speaking of pedophilles, I happen to be talking to one right now.
I'm not interested who you make friends with or your sexual fantasies.

A revolution is not a dinner party. It is not a fanciful ballet. It is not a game. It is the tool by which one class violently overthrows and represses another.
...or your homicidal fantasies.

People can say what the fuck they like after the revolution.
Until it offends you. We know the story and we know what happens next.

No proletarian is going to force any other proletarian to do anything.
How's it all going to work to ensure that they don't?

t_wolves_fan
28th November 2006, 19:10
Originally posted by Dr. [email protected] 28, 2006 05:59 pm
Couldn't we just as easily discredit all of the "freedoms" and privileges afforded to American because people have been silenced and oppressed. Arguably at the expense of these priviliges.
Explain.

Dr. Rosenpenis
28th November 2006, 20:34
Many people in the United States have been targeted by the government for their political actions. If you can claim that Cuba's success in certain areas has been at the expense of alleged human rights infringements, can we also not claim that the United States's success in certain areas has been at the expense of the quite well-documented persecution of subversives, racism in law enforcement, in politics, not to mention the oppression of people abroad and capitalism itself.

t_wolves_fan
28th November 2006, 20:51
Originally posted by Dr. [email protected] 28, 2006 08:34 pm
Many people in the United States have been targeted by the government for their political actions. If you can claim that Cuba's success in certain areas has been at the expense of alleged human rights infringements, can we also not claim that the United States's success in certain areas has been at the expense of the quite well-documented persecution of subversives, racism in law enforcement, in politics, not to mention the oppression of people abroad and capitalism itself.
Your argument suggests you believe its ok so long as everyone does it, which is troubling.

Yes, we have persecuted people for their beliefs in the past unfortunately. Our current administration has not been kind towards dissent, but neither has it instituted a policy where "disrespecting" the President lands one in jail as it does in other countries.

I used to walk by the White House on my lunch break just a couple of years ago, where I'd see people holding signs calling Bush every name in the book. They were ignored by the cops.

Would they be ignored in Havana?

Reporters without borders says we're the 53rd most open country for the press. Cuba is 165th.

Out of 168.

And please do not equate a few hipsters getting their heads cracked for inciting the cops at a protest with Cuba. I've been there, seen that, and they almost always deserve it for reasons other than their opinion.

Krypto-Communist
28th November 2006, 21:04
I used to walk by the White House on my lunch break just a couple of years ago, where I'd see people holding signs calling Bush every name in the book. They were ignored by the cops.


Of course they were ignored by the cops, but in certain circumstances such as where the ruling class is seeing its demise (well into the future obviously) it will cease to give the appearance of tolerance.

Those cops that ignored those protestors will sooner or later, be ordered to trackdown dissidents and possibly even execution on the spot.

You think "tolerance of dissent" can continue indefintely?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids

t_wolves_fan
28th November 2006, 21:10
I used to walk by the White House on my lunch break just a couple of years ago, where I'd see people holding signs calling Bush every name in the book. They were ignored by the cops.


Of course they were ignored by the cops, but in certain circumstances such as where the ruling class is seeing its demise (well into the future obviously) it will cease to give the appearance of tolerance.

And your vision of what might happen in the future justifies the repression of opinion for the sake of making everyone socioeconomically equal, how again?

The Palmer raids happened in the 19-teens. Try picking something...I don't know... maybe relevant? We've had multiple socialist/communist mayors elected since then and presently have an openly socialist member of the United States Senate.

red team
28th November 2006, 21:43
People act freely every day and do nothing to alter your quality of life. That evidently bothers you.

Does all this mean that you'll be taking slaves after the revolution (who will presumably be made to sacrifice their "less important" freedom of action to improve your "more important" quality of life)?

Slavery is a decrease in the quality of life by those affected by it. The restriction of the freedom of action of a privileged oligarchy to adversely affect the quality of life of others from the hoarding of resources gives a net increase in the quality of life for everyone except the members of the oligarchy which now is deprived of the ability to extort others for their labour. Which position do you think the majority of the working population will take? The further increase in the effortless luxury of the financial royalty at the expense of their own general quality of life? :lol:

The Sloth
28th November 2006, 22:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2006 02:39 pm
I'd like to see you actually answer the question instead of running away from it.
what do you mean? red team was contrasting the two possibilities being discussed. what would you like answered, exactly? and how?

t_wolves_fan
28th November 2006, 22:28
Originally posted by Brooklyn-Mecca+November 28, 2006 10:15 pm--> (Brooklyn-Mecca @ November 28, 2006 10:15 pm)
[email protected] 28, 2006 02:39 pm
I'd like to see you actually answer the question instead of running away from it.
what do you mean? red team was contrasting the two possibilities being discussed. what would you like answered, exactly? and how? [/b]
It was a pretty direct and straightforward question: if you think direct democracy is the answer to getting to do what you want all the time, how can you be sure the mob simply won't vote to repress you?

RT took the ball and ran off into unsubstantiated "the oligarchy is out to get me" land without explaining exactly what he's prevented from doing by the dominant capitalist oligarchy.

The Sloth
28th November 2006, 22:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2006 06:10 pm
Oh yeah, Zimbabwe has all the calling cards of free trade...
oh? shucks, was that before or after the structural readjustment? and why? doyaknow, doyaknow, doyareallyreally know?


If those other people comprise a majority, the chances are it will be you staring down the barrel of a gun, not them.

why are you so certain as to what object i will be "staring" at seconds before i'm shot. maybe i'll be looking at the floor, meng.

but, "a majority" will exist no matter what. it always pressures, and sometimes coerces, but its character is different according to the society.


Those are your short-comings, not mine.

"those" implies i've made some kind of list. i really don't know what you're talking about.

The Sloth
28th November 2006, 22:46
It was a pretty direct and straightforward question: if you think direct democracy is the answer to getting to do what you want all the time, how can you be sure the mob simply won't vote to repress you?

how silly. the "mob" can do anything it pleases -- including a vote on fecal consumption.

same goes for the oligarchy.


RT took the ball and ran off into unsubstantiated "the oligarchy is out to get me" land without explaining exactly what he's prevented from doing by the dominant capitalist oligarchy.

perhaps he's not prevented from doing anything; he might be quite rich. but that's not anyone's business here.

what is the "what" you are referring to? it depends entirely on class, of course.

Krypto-Communist
29th November 2006, 01:29
And your vision of what might happen in the future justifies the repression of opinion for the sake of making everyone socioeconomically equal, how again?

Communism isn't about "socioeconomically equality", it's about emancipation from compulsory wage labor.


The Palmer raids happened in the 19-teens. Try picking something...I don't know... maybe relevant? We've had multiple socialist/communist mayors elected since then and presently have an openly socialist member of the United States Senate.

When was the last time the ruling class in this country felt genuine threatened by the masses?

Never...atleast not yet.

How about the Kent State shootings? The Bonus Army after World War I? Those students killed in Mississippi and Alabama in the late-60s?

That's what happens when the ruling class only feels "a little threatened" by its people.

Check back with us in a decade or two and we'll see how your government deals with dissent from a large majority.

I am not saying that the U.S. government is an openly tyranncial force that terrorizes its people (they do that to others or atleast pay others to do it for them). What I am saying that it could come to that. Dictatorships, fascism and police states don't exist because of "bad ideas", they are created by the objective political and economical conditions that exist in a given society.

Being determines consciousness.

uber-liberal
29th November 2006, 03:32
Communism isn't about "socioeconomically equality", it's about emancipation from compulsory wage labor.

One leads to the other, boss.


When was the last time the ruling class in this country felt genuine threatened by the masses?

Throughout the Sixties and early Seventies. Kent State, Civil Rights, Vietnam protests, Black Panthers, the Weathermen... society seemed to be unraveling around them. Damn straight they were scared.

Rawthentic
29th November 2006, 03:42
There's no such thing as the end of history so long as there are people about.

Theres my point, thanks for shutting yourself up. Of course history is not over. When communism is achieved history will continue, but not through revolution, but evolution.

And that second shit you said, of course not all rebels are gonna be repressed or incarcerated, its physically impossible.

uber-liberal
29th November 2006, 04:23
Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2006 03:42 am

There's no such thing as the end of history so long as there are people about.

Theres my point, thanks for shutting yourself up. Of course history is not over. When communism is achieved history will continue, but not through revolution, but evolution.

And that second shit you said, of course not all rebels are gonna be repressed or incarcerated, its physically impossible.
Are they gonna be put in the firing lines like Stalin did with his "undesirables", or just deported like Trotsky? Punto, fuego!!! Hypocrite.

Bretty123
29th November 2006, 05:06
Originally posted by Brooklyn-Mecca+November 28, 2006 01:15 am--> (Brooklyn-Mecca @ November 28, 2006 01:15 am)
[email protected] 27, 2006 02:53 pm
Mugabe's actions are political and frankly at odds with what capitalism would advocate.
ya? the liberalization of a country to 'free trade' is anti-capitalist?


Your quip about slavery is absurd to the point that you should be embarassed that you wrote it.

i don't think you've understood the 'quip' very well. read it over, you might even agree with me.


There's not a lot of evidence that communism would be any more or less humane than capitalism that I've seen.

what exactly are you looking for? i'll wager nothing; demanding results from social science means to think in circles.


There's certainly no evidence that communism would improve an individual's self-control nor his or her ability to participate democratically. The system you advocate would lead to mob rule and the loss of individual rights.

ya, simply because you have no self-control and would rape&pillage in a social situation doesn't mean you have to assume we share your handicap.


while communism produces no incentive whatsoever considering your rewards are the same regardless of what you do.

oh? what i do = no money. yet, i feel quite rewarded.

so, do quantify 'rewards' for me. i think you'll have a very different formula from my own.. and i know why. [/b]
I have to agree with Brooklyn-Mecca on his point about slavery not being an exception to economic improvement.

The greeks employed slaves and this is one of the foundations in which they were able to flourish and use a system of pure democracy [not representative].

The amount of slaves in this situation is mind boggling compared to the amount of real athenian citizens [male, athenian, over 18]

Then a little further through history feudalism is forced upon people in fear of neighbouring hostilities and further another slavish system unfolds.

Dr. Rosenpenis
29th November 2006, 15:57
Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+November 28, 2006 05:51 pm--> (t_wolves_fan @ November 28, 2006 05:51 pm)
Dr. [email protected] 28, 2006 08:34 pm
Many people in the United States have been targeted by the government for their political actions. If you can claim that Cuba's success in certain areas has been at the expense of alleged human rights infringements, can we also not claim that the United States's success in certain areas has been at the expense of the quite well-documented persecution of subversives, racism in law enforcement, in politics, not to mention the oppression of people abroad and capitalism itself.
Your argument suggests you believe its ok so long as everyone does it, which is troubling.

Yes, we have persecuted people for their beliefs in the past unfortunately. Our current administration has not been kind towards dissent, but neither has it instituted a policy where "disrespecting" the President lands one in jail as it does in other countries.

I used to walk by the White House on my lunch break just a couple of years ago, where I'd see people holding signs calling Bush every name in the book. They were ignored by the cops.

Would they be ignored in Havana?

Reporters without borders says we're the 53rd most open country for the press. Cuba is 165th.

Out of 168.

And please do not equate a few hipsters getting their heads cracked for inciting the cops at a protest with Cuba. I've been there, seen that, and they almost always deserve it for reasons other than their opinion. [/b]
Answer the question, coward

Tungsten
29th November 2006, 18:00
red team

Slavery is a decrease in the quality of life by those affected by it.
"Hoarding" doesn't presuppose slavery.

The restriction of the freedom of action of a privileged oligarchy to adversely affect the quality of life of others from the hoarding of resources gives a net increase in the quality of life for everyone except the members of the oligarchy which now is deprived of the ability to extort others for their labour.What's true for a privelaged oligarchy is true for everyone. Is a worker saving for something while others are stuggling not "hoarding resources" also?
Krypto-Communist

Check back with us in a decade or two and we'll see how your government deals with dissent from a large majority.
Just because dissent exists doesn't mean they're singing your tune, buddy. If you think the majority- at least in America - will be screaming for communism in the next few decades, you're dreaming.

Dictatorships, fascism and police states don't exist because of "bad ideas", they are created by the objective political and economical conditions that exist in a given society.
No, they exist because of bad ideas and idiots who think they're good ones.

Being determines consciousness.
Is that the communist version of "biology means destiny"? It sounds like the similar brand of determinsm. Another one of those bad ideas I was talking about.
hastalavictoria

Theres my point, thanks for shutting yourself up. Of course history is not over. When communism is achieved history will continue, but not through revolution, but evolution.
When communism is achieved, we'll all be in hell ice-skating with satan.

And that second shit you said, of course not all rebels are gonna be repressed or incarcerated, its physically impossible.
Stalin managed it quite well and Bush has far more resources at his disposal than Stalin.

t_wolves_fan
30th November 2006, 17:57
Originally posted by Dr. [email protected] 29, 2006 03:57 pm

Answer the question, coward
My answer is yes, our success has come at the cost of some personal liberties.

I thought I made that clear.

Now my question to you is, your system seems to have a higher price in personal liberties for what basically amounts to the elimination of risk.

Is it worth it?

t_wolves_fan
30th November 2006, 18:01
Communism isn't about "socioeconomically equality", it's about emancipation from compulsory wage labor.

The degree to which it's about socioeconomic equality seems to vary based on which one of you I'm talking to.


Check back with us in a decade or two and we'll see how your government deals with dissent from a large majority.

It isn't going to be there.


I am not saying that the U.S. government is an openly tyranncial force that terrorizes its people (they do that to others or atleast pay others to do it for them). What I am saying that it could come to that.

That's the case with any government, ace.

Dr. Rosenpenis
30th November 2006, 19:23
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2006 02:57 pm
My answer is yes, our success has come at the cost of some personal liberties.
In addition to that, you're 'success' has come entirely at the cost of the suppression of rights for the majority of the population.


Now my question to you is, your system seems to have a higher price in personal liberties for what basically amounts to the elimination of risk.

Is it worth it?

We really have no regrets at all about imposing authoritarian restrictions upon the 'liberties' of the bourgeoisie.

t_wolves_fan
30th November 2006, 19:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2006 02:57 pm
My answer is yes, our success has come at the cost of some personal liberties.
In addition to that, you're 'success' has come entirely at the cost of the suppression of rights for the majority of the population.

:lol:


We really have no regrets at all about imposing authoritarian restrictions upon the 'liberties' of the bourgeoisie.

Like speaking and thinking and worshipping and such?

Guerrilla22
30th November 2006, 19:42
The article posted by capitalist lawyer is typical reactionary garbage. Around half of the 36 million people in the US living below the poverty line are employed. The article also doesn't take into condieration those who lose their jobs due to corporate downsizing or outsourcing of jobs. If there were unlimited job opporotunties avaible in the US attacking the poor for not working would be legit, however the reality is that this is not the case.

With socialism all are gauranteed employment, therefore society is much more equal and productive then under a capitilist society where 36 million rely on handouts.

Tungsten
30th November 2006, 20:47
Guerrilla22

With socialism all are gauranteed employment, therefore society is much more equal and productive then under a capitilist society where 36 million rely on handouts.
Guraranteed employment is almost impossible unless someone invents mickey-mouse jobs for these people to do, which are usually unproductive because they lie outside the market and there's no demand for them. It's virtually no different to being on handouts.

uber-liberal
1st December 2006, 11:36
Guraranteed employment is almost impossible unless someone invents mickey-mouse jobs for these people to do, which are usually unproductive because they lie outside the market and there's no demand for them. It's virtually no different to being on handouts.

While I agree mostly, the general theory of communism insists that all jobs are relavant and none are outside of the market because there is no market anymore. This is good in theory, but very lacking in practicality.
And we have plenty of jobs here in the States where we don't need to hire foreign workers, but no one wants to do them except the uneducated and disenfranchised, like immigrants and felons/parolees. I lived in apple country for years and never EVER saw one white man pick so much as one Red Delicious. Shit, they hire mexicans up in the Northwest for every little bullshit job you can think of and give them half the wages non-hispanic peoples get.
I know a guy, a former teacher (economics, of course) of mine, who got new windows installed in his entire house (a two-day job) by a very skilled mexican laborer for $125. You can't even hire a scab contractor to do that for that price.
That mexican worker was in a bad position of needing to get whatever he could for his time and effort. Had he gone to the Carpenter's local hall he could have done work like that for approximately $35 an hour!
The capitalist market naturally goes to the cheapest form of appropriately skilled labor that is available on the market. This, however, has the tendency of taking advantage of the average hourly worker by constantly lowering pay while keeping the product the same price, thus insuring a larger profit, a bigger stock price leap and a bigger bonus for the shareholders and the executive board.
While Marxism won't work right now, and maybe ever, it's about time to start swinging the penduluum the other way again, in favor of those whose sweat makes our bread, our cars and our lives more accessable.

t_wolves_fan
1st December 2006, 15:04
Originally posted by uber-[email protected] 01, 2006 11:36 am

Guraranteed employment is almost impossible unless someone invents mickey-mouse jobs for these people to do, which are usually unproductive because they lie outside the market and there's no demand for them. It's virtually no different to being on handouts.

While I agree mostly, the general theory of communism insists that all jobs are relavant and none are outside of the market because there is no market anymore. This is good in theory, but very lacking in practicality.
And we have plenty of jobs here in the States where we don't need to hire foreign workers, but no one wants to do them except the uneducated and disenfranchised, like immigrants and felons/parolees. I lived in apple country for years and never EVER saw one white man pick so much as one Red Delicious. Shit, they hire mexicans up in the Northwest for every little bullshit job you can think of and give them half the wages non-hispanic peoples get.
I know a guy, a former teacher (economics, of course) of mine, who got new windows installed in his entire house (a two-day job) by a very skilled mexican laborer for $125. You can't even hire a scab contractor to do that for that price.
That mexican worker was in a bad position of needing to get whatever he could for his time and effort. Had he gone to the Carpenter's local hall he could have done work like that for approximately $35 an hour!
The capitalist market naturally goes to the cheapest form of appropriately skilled labor that is available on the market. This, however, has the tendency of taking advantage of the average hourly worker by constantly lowering pay while keeping the product the same price, thus insuring a larger profit, a bigger stock price leap and a bigger bonus for the shareholders and the executive board.
While Marxism won't work right now, and maybe ever, it's about time to start swinging the penduluum the other way again, in favor of those whose sweat makes our bread, our cars and our lives more accessable.
Great post.

You hit on the weaknesses inherent in both systems quite well. Shocking for someone who calls himself an "uber-liberal". :P

I guess the choice comes down to which you value more, guaranteed employment and a minimum standard of living, which will bring with it incredible waste, inefficiency, and likely repression (considering the social positions of adherents to this position on this site); or economic freedom and individual liberty, which will bring with it economic efficiency at the cost of poverty and unfairness.

I find that it doesn't really have to be an "either/or" proposition. If you can use intelligent government intervention (which is still an oxymoron at this point), to alleviate the flaws in the latter proposition it will be far superior to the former.

uber-liberal
1st December 2006, 17:45
As it is still considered economic blasphemy by both sides (hence my restriction), why not take the better aspects of both and create something new?

t_wolves_fan
1st December 2006, 17:50
Originally posted by uber-[email protected] 01, 2006 05:45 pm
As it is still considered economic blasphemy by both sides (hence my restriction), why not take the better aspects of both and create something new?
That would entail getting people to stop conforming to political ideologies (as even communists do) by admitting they don't have a license on the truth.

People, and especially those who get into politics, aren't generally capable of doing that.

Which itself makes pure communism untenable.

uber-liberal
1st December 2006, 19:01
Pure capitalism, too.

t_wolves_fan
1st December 2006, 19:20
Originally posted by uber-[email protected] 01, 2006 07:01 pm
Pure capitalism, too.
Yep, forgot to add that.

uber-liberal
1st December 2006, 20:56
See, I'm against purity. Nothing gets out of my reach without a smear of mud on it. Idols and heros are nothing more than mere mortals with good PR and timing.