Indians - what do you think about them and what happened to

[exploding toast]

In my history class we are just starting the 1830's and shit, and that is whenindians started to get chased out of their lands... and i got me thinking... the indians were the first real working form of communism, because the chief acted as government. there were no luxuries, no classes. and now all i can think about is how Jackson ruined such a good society...

[hazard]

I love the indians. we should all leave the american continents and give it back to them.

[redstar2000]

#Moderation Mode

I think this would be better discussed in the History forum.

:cool:

Moved here (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=26&topic=345)

[RedCeltic]

Naturally, there are many different Native American tribes, and some were more egalitarian than others. Not all of them had chiefs in fact. Many tribes had a democratic council.

What modern society can learn from indigenous peoples is how to live as sustainable cultures within our ecosystems. While Americans make up 5% of the worlds population, we consume 25% of the world's resources. Compare that to native populations in their indigenous habitats, like tribes still living in the rain forest in the Amazon, they have little to no impact on their environments, and therefore the resources they depend on, would be indefinite, if it wouldn't be for encroaching western civilization.

[redstar2000]

I'd like to expand on RC's remarks. "Indians" exist only in European eyes; these were many different peoples in their own eyes.

Some were indeed quite egalitarian; others were already well on the road towards agriculture and a proto-class society; still others were perhaps not more than a century or two from something very much like Sumer or Ur, the earliest examples of oriental despotism.

Even with regard to ecological considerations, there were wide differences in practice.

It is always a mistake to "romanticize" cultures without really taking the time to dig in and learn what they are/were really like.

Remember that they were/are people, just like us, not saintly, spiritual redeemers of our own alienation.

:cool:

[hoffer]

its not fair to take there land

[Sabocat]

Quote: from exploding toast on 8:58 am on April 30, 2003
In my history class we are just starting the 1830's and shit, and that is whenindians started to get chased out of their lands... and i got me thinking... the indians were the first real working form of communism, because the chief acted as government. there were no luxuries, no classes. and now all i can think about is how Jackson ruined such a good society...


Actually, in the U$, the aboriginal indians were getting murdered and chased off of their properties right from the start (1600's). In Massachusetts alone, the tribes were pushed out/slaughtered out of the Boston and shore areas as well as the islands. (Martha's Vineyard, and Nantucket).

I suggest you read Howard Zinn's "A Peoples History of the United States" if you want to read and learn real history about the Native Americans. The U$ never made one deal/treaty with the Indians that that they didn't break.

What your history teacher won't tell you, is that the Indians way of life was so much better that, many settlers left the settlements and went to live with the Indians, never to return to the settlements. The Indian way of life was more appealing to them.

[RedCeltic]

What RedStar has said is quite true. My studies in a anthropology which I’m majoring in, actually focus on Native Americans of North America and Mezzo America. You did have many egalitarian hunting and gathering groups. However larger populations of people, often demands a shift to subsistence means that produce higher yields, which in turn give birth to social stratification.

The Maya are an extreme example of this as they pushed their population to the limit where they couldn’t support their civilization on the slash and burn farming they where accustomed to, and their social stratification and exploitation of their environment brought the civilization to its knees.

The Aztecs where known to have slaves, and there is even evidence of prostitution among one western planes tribe, before European contact.

[Iepilei]

being native myself, I think what happened was complete and utter crap.

However, communism is not the correct term for what the native people had. Tribalism - primitivism is more fitting. They never had massive industrialisation or a proletariat. Animist, and naturalist. That's about it.

[exploding toast]

thanks for the information and ideas... now i look at it in a dif. way

[LoneWolf]

yeah, but even though they were primitive and they were what u call tribalism :)
the white man didnt help them much... bringing diseases ans slaughter to their lands..
i dont like it, why cant people just be nice??

[Subcomandante Marcos]

Aztecs were really violent on their sacrifices but they developed an incredible way of cultivating on the surrounding lake of Technotlitan (or something like that).

Incas on the other hand a a perfect socialist system, the way they adapted to the mountains and the way they distributed crops is awesome, there were no such things as wars, to conquer territory they would offer them to join their system and give the lost of benefits, the ayllu was the perfect form of social structure.

Mapuches also are a great example of not indians but native americans since they are the true americans.

[LoneWolf]

Yeah, i think the lake was right, and yeah, they built cities in the water, on piles :)
and yes, even thought they had a violent way of living, they managed to cultivate and build magnificent buildings. They have temples build in specific ways just to make the sun's shadow have a specific angle at ONE day in the year. The developed a large society and buildt great cities. it went fine until the white man came.... slaughter disease trickery, and most of the few surviviors were taken as slaves :(

The inkas were the most peacefull of the indians, wasnt they? and they lived good and grew large and high in numbers. They built great structures, with hanging gardens and such :) big temples several thousands of metres over the sea level. The build bridges over the most dangerouse and deep cliffs in the world! And all went fine until the Spanish came... disease slaughter and trickery made the inka empire into ruins. and most of the survivors were taken slaves :(

[Comrade H]

It's all well and good saying "....until the white man came" but really, can you imagine any other possible outcome. European countries were driven by the capitalistic need to compete with their opponents. Therefore, if Spain hadn't colonized South America, then the French or the British would have, and the native americans would have suffered anyway. The same goes for North America. The Indians were doomed from the moment Columbus returned home....or perhaps even before that, back to when the fragmentation of the Roman Empire meant that European countries entereda perpetual competiton for wealth, power and resources. Just another example of why capitalism sucks.

[LoneWolf]

I know, but it would have been better if we fought each other ;)