The two best or most complete people of the century - Che+So

[Rastafari]

Alright, so lets hear it. I put two of course because I can only expect to get 111 "che" posts, but, for all I agree with you, put someone else up there too.

Che and Muhammed Ali, for example, are the two best people in my book, better than whoever time magazine said-fucking Winston Churchill and his brother-in-arms Adolf Hiter

[Deniz Gezmis]

Toughie.. i'll go with Bob Marley..

[Dynatos II]

Two greatest people of the 20th century: Me then Che. in that order.

[Sensitive]

Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky.

[smoer]

CHe guevara and Rodrigo Sanchez

[chamo]

Che Guevara and Martin Luther King.

[MiNdGaMe]

I'd like to suggest people actually detail why he or she selected those persons. This will create a better response.

[Geddan]

Adolph Hitler and Benito Mussolini.

No, Lenin for being the first trying to apply socialism, and the black power movement leaders like Martin Luther King I guess, for raising their voices against the oppression of non-whites

[Umoja]

MLK wasn't Black Power. The "Black Power" movement is pretty strange. I'd say it started with Nat Turner, then transfered to Fredrik Douglas, then Garvey/DuBois but it calmed down suddenly with Father Divine (let's just forget about him) and became something different with MLK although it didn't give people what they wanted so it changed to Malcolm X.... The Panthers.... and Black Liberation Army, then just fizzled out.

Anyway. I'd say the most important figures would be, for me, Kwame Nkrumah for leading off African independence and Ghandi for his policy of non-violence actually getting hard results.

[Rastafari]

ahh...Ghandi, great point. He is probably right behind ol' Cassius Clay (Ali). Muhammed Ali broke into sports and was more influential then Malcolm X methinks. Whereas MLK talked and preached, Ali applied. My favorite picture throughout his life was when he threw his Olympic Medal in the Kentucky River in Louisville because he could not respect something so Christian/American.

[Dirty Commie]

Gandhi, Muhammed Ali, Che, Jane Goodall (chimpanzee lady), Bob Marley, MLK. At least six is a multiple of two.

[Comrade Gorley]

Yashuah Ben-Yosif and Che, respectively. Yashuah because (I'll try to leave my personal beliefs out of this) his teachings have supplied peace and comfort over the centuries and because he was so brilliant, and Che because he was the epitome of the communist warrior- psychologically and physically.

(Edited by Comrade Gorley at 11:09 pm on April 26, 2003)

[exploding toast]

geddan your crazy they are the two worst people... beside bush.. i would say che and jim morrison

[the SovieT]

Jesus because (I'll try to leave my personal beliefs out of this) his teachings have supplied peace and comfort over the centuries and because he was so brilliant
pardon me?
over the ages all that christianity have brought us was war, mass mind rapes, fanatism, persecution, racism, bigotry, elitism etc etc etc....

the crusades, the persecutions against the jews, the inquisition etc this were all products of christianity...
and honestly looking at the past you willnotice that christianism brought nothing but death and deacay...

also there isnt even one relieable prove backing up the existence of Jesus of nazareth...

because right now you are just presuing that there once existed a jew that liked to throw mud at peoples face and got cruxifixed for rebeling against the romans....

[Dhul Fiqar]

Jesus wasn't around this century in any physical sense, so he doesn't exactly count ;)

I nominate first of all Ghandi, for obvious reasons. I think he contributed a lot to the human conscience and he seemed to have a peaceful answer for everything. The world would be beautiful with just a few more like him.

Secondly I believe Alexander Shulgin will increasingly become recognized as a major force for change of understanding of human thought and mental chemistry, so I nominate him for the future importance of his research into psycho-activity.

--- G.

[hoffer]

che and fidel

[the SovieT]

bah it was vassili Zaitsef...

i dunno if he was the most complete guy ever... but he sure was the most complete sniper i know....

[Uhuru na Umoja]

I would have to go Lenin, for his efforts to apply Marxism, and Nyerere for his role in African independence movements, Pan-Africanism, championing the concerns of the developing world, his contributions to African Socialism, and for being a truly wonderful human being. Beyond these two, Nkrumah, Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr, Ho Chi Minh, Tito, Castro, Che and Mandela (and I'm a sure a few I've left out) deserve credit.

[Umoja]

Who was Nyerere? I'm thinking Malawi but that definitly isn't right.

[Hampton]

I think it's Julius Nyerere.

[lostsoul]

Chairman Mao Zedong and Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

[Sabocat]

Che and Ghandi....or
Che and Nelson Mandela.

Ghandi for the obvious reasons. Mandela for the courage. The dedication to his cause. For being the voice of reason in unreasonable times. For also knowing that peaceful means for freedom were highly desired, but knowing that sometimes it has to be more.

[onepunchmachinegun]

Quote: from the SovieT on 2:16 pm on April 27, 2003
bah it was vassili Zaitsef...

i dunno if he was the most complete guy ever... but he sure was the most complete sniper i know....


Good guy, but overrated!

I'd say... actually I don't know! Gandhi is a good one, Che is one not to forget, Marx and Engels for their books and teachings, Tolkien wrote awesome books, Lenin for the revolution, Lennon for his music, Jakob Martin Strid for his comics and short stories, Aksel Larsen for his work in the danish communist party and a guy I know called Andreas because he have some very cool ideas and beliefs...

That was more two, wasn't it?

[Invader Zim]

Ghandi, Oscar Shindler

Ghandi needs no explanation

Oscar Shindler, saved the lives of thousands of jew during the holacaust at great personnal risk.

[Dhul Fiqar]

I am shocked and horrified no one has mentioned any of the Village People.

[Umoja]

I'm shocked and horrified that you did! Earth, Wind and Fire could blow them out of the water.

[Dhul Fiqar]

You are obviously a homophobe and a bad person.

I shall now shun you.

*shun*

[RED FIRE]

A really intense question,I personally can't pick only two,I would have to go with all revolutionaries regardless of their importance as indivduals in the revolution or attempted revolution.

[Felicia]

Ghandi

[Rastafari]

Not to delve too deeply into my beliefs, but is Jesus of this century?

I think in his time, Christ was insane

[Felicia]

Quote: from Rastafari on 12:53 pm on May 1, 2003
Not to delve too deeply into my beliefs, but is Jesus of this century?

I think in his time, Christ was insane
no, jesus is like from 10-11 centuries ago ;)

[Uhuru na Umoja]

Quote: from Umoja on 10:57 pm on April 27, 2003
Who was Nyerere? I'm thinking Malawi but that definitly isn't right.

Julius Nyerere, in Tanganyika which - following union with Zanzibar in1964 - became Tanzania. He was a philanthropist, pan-africanist, socialist, and a genuinely good person (and he has been severely under-rated outside of Africa for his contribution to world politics). He is one of the few leaders of single-party states in Africa to have volutarily stepped down. He was very good friends with Nkrumah, was instrumental in barring SA from the commonwealth in 1961 and helped the ANC, ZANU-PF, SWAPO, and the MPLA. A truly great leader.

If your interested in any of his socialist writings - which were the most influential essays on African Socialism - look for copies of 'Ujamaa: Essays on African Socialism', 'Education for Self Reliance', and the 'Arusha Decleration'.

By the way, it was Hastings Banda in Malawi.

(Edited by Uhuru na Umoja at 9:26 am on May 2, 2003)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from felicia on 6:02 pm on May 1, 2003

Quote: from Rastafari on 12:53 pm on May 1, 2003
Not to delve too deeply into my beliefs, but is Jesus of this century?

I think in his time, Christ was insane
no, jesus is like from 10-11 centuries ago ;)


Its more like 20 we arein the year 2003 AD... 2003/100 = 20.03

[Rastafari]

Quote: from felicia on 6:02 pm on May 1, 2003

Quote: from Rastafari on 12:53 pm on May 1, 2003
Not to delve too deeply into my beliefs, but is Jesus of this century?

I think in his time, Christ was insane
no, jesus is like from 10-11 centuries ago ;)

Sorry, Felicia, but...I knew that! :)
I was just talking to the guy who has Alfred from Batman as his avatar who said Jesus was of this century, cause, you know, some people do...

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Mahatma Gandhi and Oskar Schindler.


Hands down.

[Dhul Fiqar]

I've been re-thinking this...


Wouldn't you have to do more than one thing, or contribute on a very huge scale for all humanity, to qualify as "complete"?

--- G.

[Umoja]

Thanks Uhuru Na Umoja.

East Africa rules.

[Dhul Fiqar]

East Africa is pretty big, you mean Kenya or Somalia? :biggrin:

--- G.

[Cobber]

Ghandi and Ho Chi Minh

[Uhuru na Umoja]

Quote: from Dhul Fiqar on 10:25 am on May 3, 2003
East Africa is pretty big, you mean Kenya or Somalia? :biggrin:

--- G.

It depends on how you look at it. Often East Africa is just used to denote Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania (these were the three states involved in the East African Community). Occasionally Somalia, Burundi, Rwanda and Malawi are included, but culturally and politically they are not really part of East Africa (this is due primarily to different colonial legacies).

[Umoja]

If you wanna go really far it's everything from Ethiopia down to Zambia or Zimbabwe..... I don't I always considered East Africa heavily Bantu areas with a Swahili influence though.

[Comrade H]

I would have to say Aneurin Bevan and Lenin.

Bevan for creating the first, and most successful nationalised health service in the capitalist world, and for having the conviction to resign as minister due to his beliefs. (also, with both of us being Welsh, Im a bit biased ;)

Lenin, for obvious reasons. Had he lived, the Soviet would have survived and succeeded

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Strange choice...Mr Bevan.

Obviously his achievements were huge, but charisma?

Let's put it this way, Mr Bevan would be fuming if he was in the Commons today after that vote. His great system is going down the pan because of those privatised scumbags.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Does that not make 5 of us from Wales here now?

Hey, we probably have enough to sway the Assembly election if turnout stays the same as it did last week!

[booga]

Che, of course because he admitted it once and Queen Elizabeth I because she also admitted to it when she married England.

Jesus is the most complete in any sense whether real or abstract as it was demonstrated in the writings of the Bible when he said while hanging from a cross "forgive them father, for they know not, what they do."

Jesus was complete in his understanding of LOVE and I can only wish to be as he was and not the scorpion or the sacrificial lamb.

Martin Luther King, I can appreciate as a hope for the black people of America yet I do not understand many things about the man. I am disappointed that his organization refused to have anything to do with the "Deacons of Defense" :angry: Are we not all brothers and sisters despite our different roles given to us by conscience? Black people ruled nations and were scholastic leaders in astronomy and governements and now I'm supposed to believe they need a "civil right"? Give me a break!!!!! :angry:

[Dhul Fiqar]

Maybe if you got shot for taking out your wallet on the street or got pulled over ten times a month by cops for driving a nice car or couldn't get a job because of your name, you got regularly cussed at for the colour of your skin, made sit in the back of the bus and basically treated like a second class citizen for 400 years...

...maybe then you'd get the idea of Civil Rights, huh?

I'm not trying to be a dick, and maybe I misunderstood, but civil rights is a damned important issue...

--- G.




(Edited by Dhul Fiqar at 9:37 pm on May 11, 2003)

[Rastafari]

Civil Rights will continue to be an important issue until the Human race nukes itself from the Earth, I'm afraid.
"Until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes, me say war."

[SwedishCommie]

1#Che (DAMN IM MAINSTREAM!)
why
Read Episodes of the cuban revolution and youll know
2#Lenin
why
He has been the rolemodel for all my political views!

[Hampton]

Black people ruled nations and were scholastic leaders in astronomy and governements and now I'm supposed to believe they need a "civil right"? Give me a break!!!!

So a couple of uncle toms get a good job and we're supposed to believe everything else for everyone else is fine? This is complete and utter foolishness, I don't have to be Noam Chomsky to pick up a history book and see that africans have never been treated equal in this country. As for black people having ruled nations maybe that's because it happened IN AFRICA, it's full of AFRICANS.

[apathy maybe]

Lenin was a murdering basterd and so doesn't get my vote. In fact no Soviet gets my vote.
Ghandi was really good I just so like the whole idea of making salt from sea water. etc
Orwell, the most influentual author of the 20th century (apart from say JRR Tolkien, AC Clarke, I Asimov and T Pratchet. No not Terry Pratchet) in my view.

[Aleksander Nordby]

Fidel Castro and Lenin who wasent a murdering basterd but a great leader ever in history.

[YKTMX]

Lenin and Muhammad Ali

[Urban Rubble]

I don't really see Muhamed Ali as being one of the 2 "best" people of the century. I mean face the facts, he was a boxer who threw a medal into a river. He was also an egomaniac. Good boxer ? Yes. Good person ? Sure. Best of the century ? HA !

[YKTMX]

Quote: from Urban Rubble on 10:55 pm on May 15, 2003
I don't really see Muhamed Ali as being one of the 2 "best" people of the century. I mean face the facts, he was a boxer who threw a medal into a river. He was also an egomaniac. Good boxer ? Yes. Good person ? Sure. Best of the century ? HA !

Tut, tut.

He was also an inspiration to the civil rights movement, an anit-war activist, who went to jail for his beliefs. A truly great man who represented the best of the sixties.

[MEXCAN]

Augusto César Sandino

[Umoja]

Personally, I hate Ali. He was more of a throwback to the civil rights movement then anything. Just like Rosa Parks, the only reason he rose to fame was his skin color. It was very light, something he made known to Fraiser who he called a "gorilla" because he was dark skinned. A real help to a community that is already at war with itself and everyone else.

[MEXCAN]

OR Simon Bolivar !!!!

[Dirty Commie]

Yeah, Simon Bolivar was great, but he was from the 1800's.

I think.

[MEXCAN]

oups !!!Ya he was in the 1800's

[Dirty Commie]

Well, lets change this thread to nineteenth century to include Bolivar and Marx.

[dsmtuner]

Che & RATM

[GCusack]

Nelson Mandela and Bob Marley.
Mandela- obviously, for his work against arpathide and for the fact that he is reportedly once of the nicest men, u feel his presence!
Marley- because he gave hope to the very bedraggled and downtrodden people of Jamaica. His music inspired thousands to work for the good of mankind and he also help boost the fantastic religion that is rastifari!

[Jesus Christ]

Jim Varney and Ho Chi Minh
i picked Jim Varney because he is so damn funny

[inessa1917]

Che, Lenin and Trotsky

[YKTMX]

Quote: from inessa1917 on 7:39 am on May 30, 2003
Che, Lenin and Trotsky

I hate to point out the obvious but.......nevermind.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from dsmtuner on 6:09 pm on May 17, 2003
Che & RATM


Ohh dear...

[ireallyhadablackout]

Quote: from Dhul Fiqar on 1:32 pm on May 11, 2003


Maybe if you got shot for taking out your wallet on the street or got pulled over ten times a month by cops for driving a nice car or couldn't get a job because of your name, you got regularly cussed at for the colour of your skin, made sit in the back of the bus and basically treated like a second class citizen for 400 years...

...maybe then you'd get the idea of Civil Rights, huh?

I'm not trying to be a dick, and maybe I misunderstood, but civil rights is a damned important issue...

--- G.
(Edited by Dhul Fiqar at 9:37 pm on May 11, 2003)


Believe me, I am aware of what civil rights are yet they were created for the white Anglo an no one else.

I admit, I may be speaking out of ignorance because I am still learning and right now I believe that basic human rights are far more important.

The problem I have with "civil" rights constructed for a man of "white" skin is based primarily (for now) on the suspicion that "civil rights" is the white man's deal.

Sometimes, we can be premature in our actions and thoughts or we can pay attention to the wrong things and people when we should be paying special attention to what others were doing an achieving so that we don't become groupie followers.

For instance, the Deacons for Defense made a big impact on the civil rights movement in the state of Louisianna fighting the klu klux klan yet they received very little props despite the tremendous demonstration of how the police, peace advocates and a small army can and should work together to keep the people safe.

Duhl, I know about human oppression and I also know that it doesn't discrimminate, neither shall I.

Your not being a weinnie, you are right to care as much. :smile:

Oh, btw sitting in the back of the bus is now considered cool.

[ireallyhadablackout]

Quote: from dsmtuner on 6:09 pm on May 17, 2003

Che & RATM


Yah, true dat except for Tom Morello, he seems to not be able to handle all the "little" remarks that the kiddies make, I happened to notice. Oh, yet he looked so nice in my town a few months ago playing with Audio Slave. He was wearing white baggy pants and a cool looking grey button up shirt.

As for De La Roca, (sp?) he seems a little crazy, a bit off balance, perhaps radical. I honestly, can't see how a playboy can be "complete." :biggrin:

Uh, well I guess that only leaves Brad and Tim. :smile:

[ireallyhadablackout]

Quote: from SwedishCommie on 8:08 pm on May 13, 2003
1#Che (DAMN IM MAINSTREAM!)
why
Read Episodes of the cuban revolution and youll know
2#Lenin
why
He has been the rolemodel for all my political views!


Swedish Commie, only your wearing Marx right? Am I right? Not everyone knows what Marx looks like.

I will have to remember your quote on Lenin, I have yet to study the man.

[synthesis]

Sacco and Vanzetti.

Ho Chi Minh places a distant third.

I agree with apathy maybe's comments. Well said.

[kingbee]

frantz fanon. dont wanna sound like a brown noser, but he was exactly the same as che. born to middle class parents, fought for a foreign country in their revolution(born in martinique, fought for algeria), was a doctor, and was most probably killed by the cia. oh, and he died young (36).

[IHP]

Martin Luther King Jr., and Charlie Perkins

--IHP


(Edited by i hate pinochet at 1:13 am on June 4, 2003)

[革命者]

me, myself and Che Guevara

[kiwisocialist]

Che and Jonah Lomu

[Indysocialist]

Che and Ghandi.

[Eastside Revolt]

Martin Luther King

And Einstien.

[Kez]

Marx and Lenin

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I'm amazed to see how so many of you see a man who got thousands of people on their knees to beg for their god given rights as one of the "two best or most complete people of the century".

I didn't realise such an achievement warranted such a title.

[Urban Rubble]

Someone actually said Rage Against the Machine, that's funny.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Top Two: Probably El Che and Ghandi

Honorable Mention: Lenin, Trotsky, FDR (odd to see a US president on my list, but he did a lot of good--even if it was only reform), Castro, Dr. King, Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali (so arrogant that I find him obnoxious, but he did a lot of good), Ho Chi Minh, Nelson Mandela, Ralph Nader (he has been fighting corruption forever, has he not?)

[Marxist in Nebraska]

and Eleanor Roosevelt, too
I'll add Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn while I am at it.

[jehenna]

in respect to politics, it would be those people who've had the largest effect in terms of creating that state which is closest to utopian (which is a matter of ideology, and a close study of exactly who was most responsible for the creation of certain modern governments).

have any of you thought about scientists? various among these people have done more for humanity in terms of improving living standards and saving lives and increasing our knowledge of the natural world than anyone involved in politics.

i'm not going to vote for anyone, as those who i voted for would most likely say their work was based on that of others, who are just as entitled to our respect and love.

[革命者]

Quote: from jehenna on 3:36 am on July 17, 2003
(..)i'm not going to vote for anyone, as those who i voted for would most likely say their work was based on that of others, who are just as entitled to our respect and love.great attitude, Jehenna.... and welcome aboard!!!!

[Rastafari]

Ali probably doesn't deserve to be one of the two, unless you narrow it down to sports, in which case, he is the one

[elijahcraig]

Two greatest people:

V.I. Lenin
Che Guevara or Leon Trotsky

[elijahcraig]

Lenin was a murdering basterd and so doesn't get my vote. In fact no Soviet gets my vote.
Ghandi was really good I just so like the whole idea of making salt from sea water. etc
Orwell, the most influentual author of the 20th century (apart from say JRR Tolkien, AC Clarke, I Asimov and T Pratchet. No not Terry Pratchet) in my view.

Lenin a mass murderer bastard? What the fuck are you talking about?

[Jesus Christ]

elijah
do you like starting fights?
think like a jedi
respect their opinion

[elijahcraig]

I'm sorry, you don't call Lenin a mass murdering bastard and get away with it without a confrontation.

[apathy maybe]

Lets go for a confrentation then, my reasons for calling Mr Lenin a murder are as follow,
He and the other members of his party killed off large amounts of other left wingers in a succesful attempt to gain and hold power. He knew that the Bolsheviks were in a minority and he didn't like it. When he died he left the way for Stalin to gain power (and we know that he wasn't very nice). It is all a matter of history and I don't have time now to give all the reasons, these are the main ones.

[elijahcraig]

Lets go for a confrentation then, my reasons for calling Mr Lenin a murder are as follow,
He and the other members of his party killed off large amounts of other left wingers in a succesful attempt to gain and hold power. He knew that the Bolsheviks were in a minority and he didn't like it. When he died he left the way for Stalin to gain power (and we know that he wasn't very nice). It is all a matter of history and I don't have time now to give all the reasons, these are the main ones.

No, the invasion of 14 imperialist nations and mass famine caused the rise of Stalin. Lenin specifically advised against Stalin taking power, he wanted Trotsky to be the "leader" afterwords.

He had 100 kulaks (rich peasents) executed, but do you know why? Because they were fighting with the White Army and were blocking food from Moscow, which need the supplies because the country had millions starving to death.

Killed other leftists? I don't know what you are talking about specifically, so I need more information to rebute this claim.

[Kez]

the working masses and eric cantona

[mentalbunny]

Why cantona?

[apathy maybe]

When a general election was held in November 1917, the Bolsheviks came second to the Socialists-Revolutionaries. Lenin's response was simple. When the new Russian Parliament, the Constituent Assembly, met on 5th January, it was dispersed and Lenin began to rule as a dictator.
On 12 April 1918 the Moscow headquarters of the anarchists was surrounded and attacked by Bolshevik troops. 9 May 1918, Bolshevik troops open fire on workers protesting at food shortages in the town of Kolpino.

Other political parties were banned, newspapers were censored and a secret police force was set up, the Cheka, led by Felix Dzherzhinsky. they enforced Lenin's ideas and thousands of people were murdered.

While you may say that people were not doing as Lenin ordered because he was the dictator he had the power. And why did he need to be dictator? It wasn't to further the revulution to it's final stage that is for sure. It seems that Lenin and Stalin both were just using the old, "get power any way and hold power any way". Both held power till the died, pretty impressive.

But really there probably should be a thread in History on the achivements of Lenin. In fact I'll start it.

[elijahcraig]

When a general election was held in November 1917, the Bolsheviks came second to the Socialists-Revolutionaries. Lenin's response was simple. When the new Russian Parliament, the Constituent Assembly, met on 5th January, it was dispersed and Lenin began to rule as a dictator.

Lenin did not "rule as a dictator". The election was unrepresentative of the people, the votes in Podilia weren't even counted. Lenin and the Bolsheviks broke off at this occurence and formed a new assembly. There was no dictatorship by Lenin.



{QUOTE]On 12 April 1918 the Moscow headquarters of the anarchists was surrounded and attacked by Bolshevik troops. [/QUOTE]

And? They were fighting against the government in the middle of a war. The country was in famine and 16 imperialist nations had invaded. The Bolsheviks were trying to keep the country together, and what were the anarchists doing??? Crying about the state.


9 May 1918, Bolshevik troops open fire on workers protesting at food shortages in the town of Kolpino.

OK, we're in the middle of mass famine, there IS NO FOOD available, and these people are stirring up resistance to the Bolsheviks at a crucial time? That is a "justification", though I will say this might have been a mistake.


Other political parties were banned, newspapers were censored and a secret police force was set up, the Cheka, led by Felix Dzherzhinsky. they enforced Lenin's ideas and thousands of people were murdered.

Thousands of bourgeois counter-revolutionaries. What part of "dictatorship of the proletariat" is not clear to you? Kulaks and White army cooperators were killed, none of whom I have any love for.


While you may say that people were not doing as Lenin ordered because he was the dictator he had the power. And why did he need to be dictator? It wasn't to further the revulution to it's final stage that is for sure. It seems that Lenin and Stalin both were just using the old, "get power any way and hold power any way". Both held power till the died, pretty impressive.

That is a useless claim made by capitalists, which holds no water. Lenin did not hold power until he died, though he had influence on people. By 1924, Stalin had began to take over, against Lenin's wishes. Your slanderous approach to Lenin reminds me of a Time Magazine article I read once.


But really there probably should be a thread in History on the achivements of Lenin. In fact I'll start it.

OK.

[elijahcraig]

I really messed up the quotes on that page, but I think you can probably figure it out.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

elijah is right......apathy maybe get the fuck off here capitalist!

[Cobber]

In chronological order - Gandhi and Che (two completely different methods, but I think ultimately the same aim).

[Faeelin]

FDR and Ike.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Faeelin,
Why two US presidents?

[Faeelin]

1) FDR helped save american democracy, and defeat the nazis.

2) Ike stood firm against Stalin.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 10:16 PM
1) FDR helped save american democracy, and defeat the nazis.

2) Ike stood firm against Stalin.
Interesting... what is your political persuasion?

[Faeelin]

Originally posted by Marxist in Nebraska+Aug 20 2003, 03:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Marxist in Nebraska @ Aug 20 2003, 03:20 AM)
[email protected] 19 2003, 10:16 PM
1) FDR helped save american democracy, and defeat the nazis.

2) Ike stood firm against Stalin.
Interesting... what is your political persuasion? [/b]
Oh, to the left. I just simply can&#39;t excuse stalin for what he did.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 10:25 PM
Oh, to the left. I just simply can&#39;t excuse stalin for what he did.
Neither do I... I was just wondering what you would best identify as...