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Xiao Banfa
14th November 2006, 01:17
Chinese are infamous about inflating figures that make them look like victims i.e. the 300,000 figure from NanJing.

What the fuck is this!? You sound like a racist genocide denier.

Explain yourself!

Fidelbrand
15th November 2006, 13:12
For Nanjing massacre, check out this link:

P.S. My grannie's brother was killed in the massacre. This is my family's eye-witnessed history. Fuck with that.. i will brush your ass-hole with a toilet-brush!

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...opic=24061&st=0 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=24061&st=0)


THE NANJING MASSACRE.
(As noted by the website: Warning: The following document contains detailed descriptions of the Nanjing Massacre in 1937-1938. The brutality shown in the photos is beyond any human imagination.)
http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/njmassac/
http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/njmassac/killcity.htm


The most horrible thing i read was: They took the fetus as a toy and played in the streets

http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/njmassac/nmphoto/fetus.gif

Alejandro C
15th November 2006, 16:30
The NanJing Massacre of Chinese by Japanese as we all know is one of the worst genocidal moments in history. However, because of the Eurocentric view through which most of us have learned history, a lot of us know very little about it. i certainly don't remember reading about it in my history books. (Then again, there are a lot of very smart people here with a deep background of world history so probably we have all heard about this). In another post I casually questioned the figure of the massacred Chinese people as quoted by the government. This was in no way a denial that the massacre happened, nor that it was one of the worst moments in human history. The Chinese that I know still hate the Japanese because of this. A lot of people don't understand that, because it happened a long time ago. But if we read first hand accounts of what happened, it is perfectly understandable for such a traumatic event to have a very long lasting impact on the Chinese society.
My questioning of the Chinese government brought a lot of surprising backlash from people on the board, and I think it was a little unjustified. From the most well researched article I could find:

Unknown Number of Victims from the Beginning


The stone wall at the entrance of the Memorial Hall for Compatriot Victims of the Japanese Military's Nanjing Massacre.


Without doubt the total number of victims in the Nanking Atrocities per se by no means signifies the cruelty and barbarism of the incident.

No matter what the actual death toll was, the fact that Japanese soldiers were engaged in wanton executions and reckless rapes remains the same.

It is also true, however, that the number has been tinged with politically symbolic meaning and has maintained the emotional controversy for decades.

For Japanese conservatives, the figure of 200,000 connotes "victor's justice" at the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. In their eyes it was an overly inflated estimate based on groundless evidence, and any number in the hundreds of thousands is a pure nonsense.

In China the figure of 300,000, the death toll reckoned at the Nanking War Crimes Tribunal, is the official estimate engraved on the stone wall at the entrance of the Qin-Hua Rijun Nanjing Datsusha Yunan Tongbao Jinianguan, or the Memorial Hall for Compatriot Victims of the Japanese Military's Nanjing Massacre.

As historian Yang Daqing at George Washington University points out, it denotes the "justice, legality, and authority of the postwar trials" in Nanking. Thus, for many Chinese any question about the death toll is considered motivated by ill will.175

However, as seen below, estimates of the total number of victims have never been definite and consistent, even after the release of the two tribunals' judgments.


Chinese refugees gathering near the headquarters of the International Committee for the Nanking Safety Zone.


For instance, more than a month after the city fell, Miner Searle Bates, a professor of history at the University of Nanking and a member of the International Committee for the Nanking Safety Zone, wrote on January 25, 1938, "close to forty thousand unarmed persons were killed within and near the walls of Nanking, of whom some 30 percent had never been soldiers."176

Lewis Smythe, a sociologist at the University of Nanking, initially reported on March 21, "... it is estimated that 10,000 persons were killed inside the walls of Nanking and about 30,000 outside the walls.... These people estimated that of this total about 30 percent were civilians."177

Then in the spring of 1938, Smythe conducted a field survey to assess the damages and losses at Nanking and its vicinity under the auspices of the International Relief Committee. His research resulted in civilian victims of 6,600 (2,400 massacred and 4,200 abducted (and mostly missing)) within the city and 26,870 in the vicinity.178

Robert Wilson, a surgeon at the American-administered University Hospital in the Safety Zone, wrote in his letter to the family, "a conservative estimate of people slaughtered in cold blood is somewhere about 100,000, including of course thousands of soldiers that had thrown down their arms" on March 7, 1938.179

The chairman of the International Committee, John Rabe, gave a series of lectures in Germany after he came back to Berlin on April 15, 1938, in which he said, "We Europeans put the number [of civilian casualties] at about 50,000 to 60,000."180


Farewell tea party for the Chairman of the Nanking Safety Zone, John Rabe.


According to reports from the United Press and Reuters, Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek announced as early as December 16, 1937, three days after the city fell, in Hankow, "Chinese army casualties on all fronts exceed 300,000. The loss of civilian life and property is beyond computation."181

This was probably the first time a figure of hundreds of thousands was officially mentioned in the Second Sino-Japanese War, although Chiang's estimate included all the battlefronts in China since the beginning of hostilities on July 7, 1937.

On January 11, 1938, a correspondent for the Manchester Guardian, Harold Timperley, apparently tried to cable a similar estimate but was censored out by the Japanese authority in Shanghai because in his report it was "not less than 300,000 Chinese civilians" who were slaughtered in cold blood in "Nanking and elsewhere." His message was relayed from Shanghai to Tokyo to be sent out to the Japanese Embassies in Europe and the United States.182

On January 17, 1938, when Japan's Foreign Minister, Hirota Koki, sent a message to his contact in Washington D.C., the cable was intercepted by American intelligence and translated into English. According to the translation, which is now available at the National Archives, Timperley also reported about robbery, rape, and other brutal conduct by the Japanese troops that were going on in the walled city.

Another journalist, Edgar Snow, wrote in 1941 that his source in the Nanking International Relief Committee told him "the Japanese murdered no less than 42,000 people in Nanking alone, a large percentage of them women and children."183


A scene from The Battle of China that depicted atrocities committed by the Japanese troops in Nanking.


"In one of the bloodiest massacres of recorded history," annotated Frank Capra's U.S. war propaganda documentary, The Battle of China, from the Way We Fight series in 1944, "they [Japanese] murdered 40,000 men, women and children."184

In 1947 at the Nanking War Crimes Tribunal, the verdict of Lieutenant General Tani Hisao, the commander of the 6th Division, quoted the figure of more than 300,000 victims.185 Apparently the estimation was made from burial records and eyewitness accounts. It concluded that some 190,000 were illegally executed on a massive scale at various execution sites and 150,000 were individually massacred.

The International Military Tribunal for the Far East estimated in its judgment that "over 200,000" civilians and prisoners of war were murdered during the first six weeks of the Japanese occupation.186 That number was based on burial records submitted by two charitable organizations, the Red Swastika Society and the Chung Shan Tang (Tsung Shan Tong), the research done by Smythe and some estimates given by survivors.

However, the tribunal seems not to have been concerned much about the exact number of victims. In the verdict of General Matsui Iwane, the commander-in-chief of the Central China Area Army, the IMTFE contradictorily indicated that, "In this period of six or seven weeks... upwards of 100,000 people were killed."187

Even years after the two war crimes tribunals announced their estimates, neither of the death tolls took hold as an established figure.

Take, for instance, the Military History Bureau of the Ministry of National Defense of Republic of China (Taiwan) that compiled and published the 100-volume History of the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945). In its concise version published in 1971, the researchers claimed, "Their [Japanese] slaughter of more than 100,000 people of Nanking was typically representative of their brutality."188

In 1986, historian Lloyd Eastman at University of Illinois introduced a figure somewhat close to the early estimates reached by the Western missionaries in respected The Cambridge History of China. "During seven weeks of savagery," wrote Eastman, "at least 42,000 Chinese were murdered in cold blood, many of them buried alive or set afire with kerosene."189

Back to the top

175. Yang Daqing, “Convergence or Divergence? Recent Historical Writings on the Rape of Nanjing,” American Historical Review 104.3 (June 1999): 852.
176. H. J. Timperley, Japanese Terror in China (New York: Modern Age Books, 1938), 51.
177. American Missionary Eyewitnesses to the Nanjing Massacre, 1937-1938, 59.
178. Lewis S. C. Smythe, War Damage in the Nanking Area: December 1937 to March 1938 (Shanghai: Shanghai Mercury Press, 1938), quoted in Minoru Kitamura, “‘Nanking Daigyakusatsu’ Kenkyu Josetsu (ge) [An Introduction to the Research on the “Nanjing Massacre (3)],” Toa 391 (January 2000), 52; Hata, Nanking Jiken [The Nanjing Massacre], 212; Yutaka Yoshida, Tenno no Guntai to Nanking Jiken [The Emperor’s Military and the Nanjing Incident], 162.
179. Documents on the Rape of Nanking, 254.
180. Rabe, 212.
181. “Chiang Urges China to Fight to Bitter End,” Chicago Daily News, 16 December 1937; “‘No Surrender’ Chiang Kai-shek’s Call to the Nation,” the Times (London), 17 December 1937.
182. Japanese Diplomatic Messages, “Red Machine” (1934-1938), No. 1257 and No. 1263, Box 1, Record Group 457, the National Archives at College Park, MD.
183. Edgar Snow, Battle for Asia (New York: Random House, 1941), 57.
184. The Battle of China, dir. Frank Capra and Anatole Litvak, 67 min., Signal Corps, 1944, motion picture film, Record Group 111, National Archives at Collage Park, MD.
185. Shogen: Nanking Daigyakusatsu [Evidence: the Nanjing Massacre], trans. Kagami Mitsuyuki and Himeta Mitsuyoshi (Tokyo:Aoki Shoten, 1984), 134.
186. The Tokyo Judgment: The International Military Tribunal for the Far East (I.M.T.F.E.) 29 April 1946 – 12 November 1948, Volume I, ed. Röling, B. V. A. and C. F. Rüter, (Amsterdam: University Press Amsterdam, 1977), 390.
187. Ibid., 454.
188. History of the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945), comp. Hsu Long-hsuen and Chang Ming-kai, trans. Wen Ha-hsiung, revised Kao Cing-chen, Hu Pu-yu, Liu Han-mou, Liu Ih-po and Lu Pao-ching (Taipei: Chung Wu Publishing, 1971), 213.
189. Lloyd Eastman, “Nationalist China During the Sino-Japanese War 1937-1945,” in The Cambridge History of China 13, ed. John K. Fairbank and Denis Twithchett (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1986), 552.

Controversy over the Death Toll


Refugees lining up for the registration. The population of the city of Nanking has been pointed to for decades in the emotional polemic.


Although the precise death toll has never been historically established as a definite fact, it is evident that a large number of Chinese people were massacred in merciless fashion in Nanking.

In the ongoing controversy, however, one side of the dispute often calls a "denier" anyone who writes off a certain figure as "inflated."

Conversely if one dismisses a certain estimate as "minimized," the other side of the polemic tends to place the label "masochistic" for Japanese and "hysteric" or a "political agent" for Chinese.

The notion here is that if the figure of 300,000 (or any higher end of the estimates for that matter) does not stand, it is no longer the Nanking Atrocities (or the Nanjing Massacre or the Rape of Nanking).

Some try to refute the figure of 300,000 (or 200,000) in an attempt to prove that the atrocities did not take place. Others try to enshrine the figure of 300,000 (200,000) in an effort to emphasize the scale of the atrocities.

Caught up in the "mathematical game," the two extreme sides tend to use the number of people massacred as a benchmark to measure every criminal act such as abduction, rape, looting, and arson. In their arguments, therefore, the more the dead bodies, the more incendiarism, violations of women, and pillage were committed by the Japanese troops. The higher the death toll is, the worse the atrocities are, and vice versa.

Indeed, the focal point of the recent controversy has always been the final death toll. This tendency, unfortunately, has blinded the general public to the current scholarship and how estimates were arrived at.

Ignoring any logical explanation behind the figure, some take up only the final death toll suggested by a researcher and condemn it as either diminishing or exaggerating the scale of the Nanking Atrocities.

Below are the two typical examples of historical evidence that have been pointed to for decades in the emotional polemic despite the efforts of many historians to explain the rationale for their calculations.


Population of Nanjing


Chinese refugees filmed by an American missionary, John Magee.


The exact population of Nanking when the city fell onto the hands of the Japanese Imperial Army is simply impossible to figure out since no one could possibly record the inflow and outflow of people during wartime.

However, from the day the Japanese troops occupied the city onward, many members of the International Committee for the Nanking Safety Zone repeatedly stated in their official documents, diaries and letters that around 250,000 refugees were living in the camps within the Safety Zone and many fewer people, "probably not more than ten thousands," as reported by one of the members, Miner Searle Bates, were living outside the refugee camps.190

Considering that they were the ones who arranged food and other supplies for the relief of the refugees, probably their calculation of the population was not far off the mark.

Although this number did not include the Chinese troops, which in foreign journalists' estimates amounted to about 50,000,191 the massacre of 300,000 or even 200,000 people simply looks implausible since those missionaries, who incessantly protested against the orgy of murders, looting, rapes and arson by the Japanese troops, did not record any drastic population drops as a result of the atrocities.

Indeed, Lewis Smythe, a sociologist at the University of Nanking, conducted a survey in the spring of 1938 that showed much smaller number of civilian victims, as did other members of the International Committee.


Burial Records

The second question often raised by many is the credibility of burial records of the Chung Shan Tang (Tsung Shan Tong), a 140-year-old charitable organization in Nanjing. Although their reports that recorded the burial of 112,267 bodies was adduced to the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, they were actually prepared for the tribunal after the war ended because the original manuscripts were allegedly all lost during the eight years of Japanese occupation.

Of course that does not mean that the Chung Shan Tang doctored their reports. The available Chinese documents of that time showed that the organization started burying the dead bodies scattered over certain parts of the city at the beginning of 1938 at the latest. Forty full-time staff and numerous part-timers buried their countrymen and women inside the city walls until March and worked outside of the walls in April.

It should be noted, however, that none of the other documents written by members of the International Committee or the Japanese authorities in Nanjing mentioned that the Tsun Shan Tang was engaged in burial work, while they recorded that another charitable organization, the Red Swastika Society, buried about 40,000 bodies.

Their burial reports also showed a rather disproportionate number of the bodies buried each month. In the first one hundred days from December to March they recorded 7,549 bodies, about 75 per day. In the last three weeks in April when they went outside the city walls, however, they claimed to have buried an additional 104,718, about 5,000 bodies per day.192


Current Estimates of the Death Toll by Historians and Their Rationale


A village outside Nanking in February 1936. Some historians argue that the victims in the neighboring six counties should also be included in the total death toll of the Nanking Atrocities.


It is safe to say that today the majority of historians estimate the death toll of the Nanking Atrocities in the range between 200,000 and 300,000 as claimed by the International Military Tribunal for the Far East or the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal.

However, what is fundamentally different is their reasoning for the figures and their "definition" of the Nanking Atrocities, namely the duration of the incident, the boundaries of Nanjing area, and in some cases the breakdown of the death toll by soldiers killed in action, prisoners of war and innocent civilians.

For instance, historian Kasahara Tokushi at Tsuru University and Fujiwara Akira, a professor emeritus at Hitotsubashi University, take into account that Japanese soldiers continually committed atrocities throughout the march between Shanghai and Nanjing.

They consider that the entire Nanjing Special Municipality, which consisted of the walled city and its neighboring six counties, should be included when discussing the Nanking Atrocities.193

Kasahara researched the damages and losses in those local areas where the Japanese troops swarmed through during the Battle of Nanking and concluded that a greater number of people were slaughtered in rural areas than inside the walled city. Given the fact that the population of the entire Special Municipality was over one million in early December, Kasahara estimated close to 200,000 people were massacred in total.194


Refugee huts at Tse Hsia Shan, outside Nanking. March 1938.


In an agreement with Kasahara, Fujiwara defined the duration of the Nanking Atrocities "from the commencement of Japanese attack on the Nanjing Municipality in early December 1937 until [late] March 1938 when the Japanese Army officially declared that public security was restored," and concluded "nearly 200,000 or even more soldiers and civilians"195 were massacred.

Many historians such as Yoshida Yutaka at Hitotsubashi University and Joshua Fogel at the University of California, Santa Barbara, embrace Kasahara's research and his conceptualization of the Nanking Atrocities.196

The director of the Memorial Hall for Compatriot Victims of the Japanese Military's Nanjing Massacre, Zhu Chengshan, also agrees with the definition proposed by Kasahara and Fujiwara but has a different opinion as to the number of the victimized Chinese POWs. In his estimate, "not less than 300,000" were massacred in the Nanjing Special Municipality.197

Sun Zhaiwei, a scholar at the Jiangsu Academy of Social Sciences, adopts the death toll of more than 300,000 within and near the city limits, although he leaves some space for discussion, indicating the number could be "somewhat upward or downward."198

In his research Sun calculated that the size of Nanking Defense Army was about 150,000 as opposed to the 50,000 troops previously believed. According to his study, a far greater number of people were living outside the refugee camps than was observed by the missionaries, which makes the death toll of 300,000 within and near the city plausible.199

"The neighboring six counties shouldn't be included in the discussion of the Nanking Atrocities," maintains Hata Ikuhiko, a professor at Nihon University. Hata thinks the "definition" must be in accordance with the one announced in the IMTFE judgment, which states, "This orgy of crime started with the capture of the City on the 13th December 1937 and did not cease until early in February 1938."200

Though admitting that there were wholesale atrocities outside the walled city and elsewhere in China, Hata believes historians should comply with the early definition for the sake of academic discussion.


"Historians should stick to the definition given by the Tokyo War Crimes Trial," says Hata Ikuhiko. Interview by author on February 19, 2000.


"Only God knows the exact figure," says Hata.201 "I don't think the members of the Committee for the Safety Zone statistically calculated the population. And there could have been many people living outside the Safety Zone. After all it was only one-eighth the land of the entire city. So the population could have been higher than 250,000 and could have been lower as well. The thing is, we don't even know what number to base on...."

"I think historians should stick to the definition given by the Tokyo War Crimes Trial. Right now we are arguing on different planes. But if we do agree on the definition, hopefully we could at least have a consensus if it was tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands."

Hata dismisses the burial record of Chung Shan Tang (Tsung Shan Tong) as "unreliable"202 and tentatively estimates the death toll of the massacred at 38,000 through 42,000203 and the total number of deaths including Chinese soldiers killed in action at not more than 100,000.204

Higashinakano Shudo, a professor of intellectual history at Asia University, asserts that the burial record of the Chung Shan Tang was concocted for the tribunal. He also questions the credibility of the record given by the other charitable organization, the Red Swastika Society, asserting that of the recorded 40,000 bodies, only 13,000 to 15,000 were authentic.205

"My research shows that the Red Swastika Society could have possibly buried 15,000-odd bodies. Of course I am aware that there were bodies thrown into the Yangtze River," says Higashinakano. "But even if we believe the figure of 40,000, it does not make much difference. The real question is whether those bodies were civilians or not, whether those people were illegally killed or not."206

Higashinakano argues that the plain-clothes soldiers, Chinese soldiers who shed their uniforms and fled into the refugee camps, were all guerillas and violated the Hague Regulations of 1902. In his view those guerilla suspects were not entitled to be taken as prisoners of war, thus executing them should not be called massacre. Accordingly, he insists there was no systematic illegal mass murder in Nanking.207

Probably Higashinakano's view represents the extreme side of the latest controversy. However, in Japan even some conservative scholars reject his interpretation of the International Law.


"The number could be discussed, but the Massacre must be acknowledged by everyone in the debate before that," says Zhang Lianhong. Interview by author on March 24, 2000.


For instance, historian Nakamura Akira at Dokkyo University, a self-professed "genuine patriot" and a "right-winger," notes that it is a massacre to kill prisoners of war including plain-clothes soldiers without any military trial.208

Nakagaki Hideo, a researcher at Boei Daigaku, or the Defense Academy, also admits that there were mass illegal executions of Chinese POWs.209 Although both Nakamura and Nakagaki uphold far lower death tolls than claimed at the IMTFE, they do not deny the fact that the Nanking Atrocities took place.

A historian at Nanjing Normal University and also the secretary-general of the Research Center of Nanjing Massacre by the Japanese Aggressors, Zhang Lianhong, asserts that "recognition" must come first before "definition."

He thinks historians of both countries including Japanese conservative scholars must reach a full consensus as to such essential factors as the flawed process of distinguishing plain-clothes soldiers from civilians and the illegitimacy of indiscriminately executing prisoners of war before discussing the actual number of victims.

"I don't think the death toll is a key element of the Nanjing Massacre," says Zhang.

"Some scholars say Chinese historians persist in the figure of 300,000 but I think it could be discussed between Japanese researchers and Chinese researchers. We [historians at the Research Center] are willing to talk to even Japan's 'conservative' historians as long as they respect the historical fact that the Nanjing Massacre took place. Then we can discuss the details. I think joint research is the most important step towards a transnational consensus."210

As Zhang articulated, almost all historians note that the exact death toll is not the highest priority in comprehending what actually happened in Nanking. They point out that there were other crimes such as rape, pillage, and arson that are now impossible to quantify.

In the interviews for this online documentary, many researchers said that the issue of the death toll must be discussed in a scholarly fashion. They maintain it should be a topic for academic debates, not for ideologically driven arguments.

190. See for instance, “Nanking International Relief Committee Reports of Activities November 22, 1937 – April 15, 1938,” in American Missionary Eyewitnesses to the Nanking Massacre, 1937-1938, 11; Documents of the Nanking Safety Zone, 84.
191. See for example, Durdin, “The Japanese Atrocities Marked Fall of Nanking After Chinese Command Fled,” the New York Times, 9 January 1938.
192. Hisashi Inoue, “Itai Maisou Kiroku ha Gizou Shiryo de ha Nai [The Burial Records are not fabricated evidence],” in Nanking Daigyakusatsu Hiteiron 13 no Uso [Thirteen lies in the Nanjing Massacre Deniers’ Claims], 120-137.
193. Kasahara, Nanking Jiken [The Nanjing Incident], 214; Fujiwara, Nanking no Nihongun [The Japanese Army in Nanjing], 70.
194. Kasahara, Nanking Jiken [The Nanjing Incident], 228. “jusuman ijo, soremo nijuman chikai ka aruiwa sore ijo.” The Japanese expression “jusuman” means “one hundred and tens of thousands,” which could possibly imply between 120,000 and 180,000. The sentence literally means, “one hundred and tens of thousands, probably the higher end of it, that is, nearly 200,000 or even more.”
195. Fujiwara, Nanking no Nihongun [The Japanese Army in Nanjing], 70-73.
196. Yutaka Yoshida, “Nanking Jiken no Zenyo ga Semaru Rekishi Ninshiki [The Whole Picture of the Nanjing Incident Obliges Us to Recognize the History],” Zenei 695 (January 1998): 60; Joshua A. Fogel, review of the Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II, by Iris Chang, Journal of Asian Studies 57.3 (August 1998): 81818-819; Fogel, “Correspondence: How Bad Was the Nanking Massacre?” letters to the editor, the Los Agngeles Times, 15 August 1999.
197. Zhu Chengshan, interview by author, Nanjing, China, 24 March 2000.
198. Sun Zhaiwei, et al., Nanjing Datsusha [The Nanjing Massacre] (Beijing, 1997), 9-10, quoted in Yang Daqing, “Convergence or Divergence? Recent Historical Writings on the Rape of Nanking,” American Historical Review 104.3 (June 1999): 853.
199. Sun Zhaiwei, “Nanking Daigyakusatsu no Kibo wo Ronjiru [Lecture on the Scale of the Nanjing Massacre]” (speech at the Tokyo International Symposium: 60th Anniversary of the Nanjing Massacre, Tokyo, Japan, 13-14 December 1997), in Nanking Jiken wo Do Miruka: Nichi, Chu, Bei Kenkyusha ni Yoru Kensho [How to perceive the Nanjing Massacre: Verifications by Japanese, Chinese and American Researchers], ed. Akira Fujiwara (Tokyo: Aoki Shoten, 1998), 78-81 and 107.
200. The Tokyo Judgment: The International Military Tribunal for the Far East (I.M.T.F.E.) 29 April 1946 – 12 November 1948, Volume I, 454.
201. Ikuhiko Hata, interview by author, Tokyo, Japan, 19 February 2000.
202. Hata, “The Nanking Atrocities: Facts and Fable,” Japan Echo 25.4 (August 1998): available from http://www.japanecho.co.jp/docs/html/250413.html; Internet.
203. Hata, Nanking Jiken [The Nanjing Incident], 184-215.
204. Hata, “Nanking Daigyakusatsu: ‘Rabe Koka’ o Sokutei Suru [The Nanjing Massacre: Examining the ‘Rabe Effect’],” Shokun 30.2 (February 1998): 86.
205. Shudo Higashinakano, “Nanking Gyakusatsu” no Tettei Kensho [A Through Probe of “The Nanjing Massacre”] (Tokyo: Tendensha, 1998), 295-320.
206. Shudo (Osamichi) Higashinakano, Tokyo, Japan, 3 March 2000.
207. Ibid., 191-197.
208. Akira Nakamura, “Nanking Jiken “Nichi Chu Taiwa Ryokou” Watashi ga Nyukoku Kyohi sareta Wake [The Nanjing Incident: Reasons That My Visa Application for A Trip of ‘Dialogue between Japan and China,’ Was Rejected],” Seiron 333 (May 2000): 69-72.
209. Hideo Nakagaki, “Nankin Jiken no Kenshou 2 [Verification of the Nanjing Incident 2],” Gouyu (February 2000): 25-30.
210. Zhang Lianhong, interview by author, Nanjing, China, 24 March 2000.


This article, more than anything focuses on the fact that the controversial death toll has distracted people from the horrible atrocities that took place. I agree completely and as such was hesitant to start an argument about the death toll. But as you all can see it is disputed and there is no agreeable number. The best we can say is 200,000-300,000. Which certainly marks it as one of the worst atrocities the world has ever seen. The thing that strikes me about this was the Japanese individual brutality. The freedom and encouragement the Japanese soldiers were given let them truly show their ugly disgusting brutality. They carried out these atrocities as games and competitions, one of the ugliest things I can imagine.

Why did I say that this number had been possibly inflated? It made have been written carelessly but the point I was trying to make was that the Chinese GOVERNMENT chose the top number (and in that I mean the top number quoted by any credible historian, I'm discounting both extremes of zero and 400,000 because of their lack of acceptance the credible scientific community.) And they chose that top number to quote as an exact number. I have personally seen this number at the memorial in NanJing, and it was actually the least memorable part of the memorial. The stories and images are so haunting that the number is eclipsed.
I said that this number and others are possibly inflated because of the need of the Chinese government to create a culture of victims in order to inspire nationalism. I said this based on an article that I had earlier read, the summary of which follows:

National Insecurities: Humiliation, Salvation, and Chinese Nationalism.
Authors: Callahan, William C.

Explores how humiliation has been an integral part of the construction of nationalism in China. Social theory; Domestic and international political consequences of the deployment of shame and humiliation; National insecurities in China.

The full link is http://www.humiliationstudies.org/document...llahanChina.pdf (http://www.humiliationstudies.org/documents/CallahanChina.pdf)

This article explores the way the government uses humiliation as a means to unite its people by promoting nationalism. I think its a great article and very insightful, and with this in my memory I wrote that the NanJing figures were inflated and that possibly other current figures were inflated by the government in an attempt to control the people or unite them, or instill a certain feeling in them. I was in no way downplaying the atrocities of the NanJing incident, and I think that was obvious.

Alejandro C
15th November 2006, 16:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 07:12 am
P.S. My grannie's brother was killed in the massacre. This is my family's eye-witnessed history. Fuck with that.. i will brush your ass-hole with a toilet-brush!


Woah, settle down. I clearly wasn't saying that it never took place, nor that it wasn't horrible. I guess you all made same mistake that I did: focusing on the wrong thing. And in an effort to correct this, I started another thread you can be angry about for no reason. I never expect so many people to defend the current Chinese Government. I didn't know it was like that. But anyway look for the other topic and please get back to the other discussion, it was a good one. Sorry again for disrupting it.

Fidelbrand
16th November 2006, 19:56
Originally posted by Alejandro C+November 16, 2006 12:36 am--> (Alejandro C @ November 16, 2006 12:36 am)
[email protected] 15, 2006 07:12 am
P.S. My grannie's brother was killed in the massacre. This is my family's eye-witnessed history. Fuck with that.. i will brush your ass-hole with a toilet-brush!


Woah, settle down. I clearly wasn't saying that it never took place, nor that it wasn't horrible. I guess you all made same mistake that I did: focusing on the wrong thing. And in an effort to correct this, I started another thread you can be angry about for no reason. I never expect so many people to defend the current Chinese Government. I didn't know it was like that. But anyway look for the other topic and please get back to the other discussion, it was a good one. Sorry again for disrupting it. [/b]
My post was not directed at you, it's directed at any persons who tries to play down the barbaric act of imperialist Japan, which sleeps with one-eye open nowadays, waiting for an opportunity to do some big shit with U$.

As to your post, I agree that all politics involves exaggeration, and PRC 's government is no exception.

But I wish to say is that : The massacre, the killing competition, hurts the hearts of Chinese people. Japan never officially apologizes and we still see old people go protesting and crying for this horrific past.

The whole samurai spirit is a fucked-up idea.
Good to see the new youth of Japan is so "into" their PS2 and porn videos.

Janus
16th November 2006, 21:23
I clearly wasn't saying that it never took place, nor that it wasn't horrible
Denying the figures is an implicit denial of the existence of the incident. What do you think Holocaust deniers are doing? They are politically motivated to question the numbers in order to make it less of an important issue and in order to challenge its existence.


I never expect so many people to defend the current Chinese Government.
You are seriously confused. The Nanjing Massacre has all to do with Japanese aggression and nothing to do with the current Chinese government.

I'm surprised that you are defending Japanese imperialism! :angry:

Janus
16th November 2006, 21:43
In another post I casually questioned the figure of the massacred Chinese people as quoted by the government
It was nothing casual; you even went so far as to stereotype Chinese people.


The Chinese that I know still hate the Japanese because of this
Not just that but the entire Japanese occupation and the genocide that occured.


This was in no way a denial that the massacre happened, nor that it was one of the worst moments in human history
Like I said, denying figures is an implicit denial of the massacre albeit a much more subtle one. This is what many Holocaust deniers are doing so as to minimize the Holocaust as much as possible. Revisionist Japanese historians and people like you are doing the same thing.


But as you all can see it is disputed and there is no agreeable number
You should take in the fact that it is mainly Japanese people who dispute it! There is obviously bias on that side due to Japanese nationalism.


Why did I say that this number had been possibly inflated? It made have been written carelessly but the point I was trying to make was that the Chinese GOVERNMENT chose the top number (and in that I mean the top number quoted by any credible historian, I'm discounting both extremes of zero and 400,000 because of their lack of acceptance the credible scientific community.) And they chose that top number to quote as an exact number. I have personally seen this number at the memorial in NanJing, and it was actually the least memorable part of the memorial. The stories and images are so haunting that the number is eclipsed.
I said that this number and others are possibly inflated because of the need of the Chinese government to create a culture of victims in order to inspire nationalism. I said this based on an article that I had earlier read, the summary of which follows:
The dispute over the figures is quite petty as it concerns the area and duration and other such factors.

You are right in stating that it is a political issue yet 300,000 is not the top figure. The Chinese government didn't just pick figures out of a hat but that was the figure that had been estimated by military tribunals.


I said that this number and others are possibly inflated because of the need of the Chinese government to create a culture of victims in order to inspire nationalism.
You said nothing of that nature.

You still have some things mixed up. The Japanese occupation was definitely a rallying cry for national resistance but to state that it was manipulated by the Chinese government so as to inspire greater nationalism is to minimize the tragedy that occured there.


This article explores the way the government uses humiliation as a means to unite its people by promoting nationalism. I think its a great article and very insightful, and with this in my memory I wrote that the NanJing figures were inflated and that possibly other current figures were inflated by the government in an attempt to control the people or unite them, or instill a certain feeling in them. I was in no way downplaying the atrocities of the NanJing incident, and I think that was obvious.
First of all, it definitely wasn't "obvious". You made a stereotypical remark about Chinese people inflating figures.

What you are doing here is adopting the view of Japanese nationalists who question these figures as part of their method in minimizing the significance of the event.

The Chinese government certainly wants to control the people and unite them but the line that you are walking here has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with revisionist history and questioning the event by stating that the Chinese did it so as to seem the victims. You are implicitly denying the event in this way.

chimx
16th November 2006, 22:50
either 200,000 or 300,000--that's a lot of dead people. although i agree that in most massacres, there is a tendency for the victim to exaggerate death tolls and the perpetrator to low cut that number, when looking at the actual death tolls, one should always try analyze the data in a sensitive way. if you disagree with the 300,000 number, than do so as respectfully as possible and with evidence to back your claim up.

Janus
16th November 2006, 23:06
if you disagree with the 300,000 number, than do so as respectfully as possible and with evidence to back your claim up.
I agree that much of the evidence is not 100% solid but the same can be said of the Holocaust. However, the fact remains that in instances such as this, the debate is never a true innoncent one as there are always political motivations involved. What revisionist Japanese historians are trying to do is to downplay the event by stating that the Chinese just want to seem the victims. This is similar to what Holocaust deniers are doing with the Holocaust as well and therefore is just as unacceptable. Denial of the established figures may not be a direct rejection of the event but it has all the undertones of it. This is something that Alejandro C doesn't seem to comprehend.

Phalanx
16th November 2006, 23:16
The Rape of Nanjing is barely discussed in any US schools, many people here don't even know it occured. Downplaying or disagreeing with estimates has purely a political and racist motive. The scale and brutality of the massacre was unlike any ever seen, and nobody can give credible evidence otherwise.

And what scares me is this. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6153314.stm) The Japanese government is slowly building up ultra-nationalism until they get the green light from the US to let loose and begin another campaign of imperialism.

Janus
16th November 2006, 23:28
Downplaying or disagreeing with estimates has purely a political and racist motive
Exactly, that is essentially what these Japanese historians are doing and it is the kind of shit that AC has bought into.


The scale and brutality of the massacre was unlike any ever seen, and nobody can give credible evidence otherwise.
Like I said, the debate about the massacre is extremely petty and concerns the area taken into account as well as the duration taken into account. Both things which Japanese revisionists have really picked up on and with which they are seeking to minimize the event for their own agenda.


The Japanese government is slowly building up ultra-nationalism until they get the green light from the US to let loose and begin another campaign of imperialism.
This is a subtle sponsorship of the revisionist textbooks which basically ignore Japanese brutality during WWII. This will only further the goals of Japanese nationalists and cause painful memories and lessons to be forgotten about.

Phalanx
16th November 2006, 23:35
This is a subtle sponsorship of the revisionist textbooks which basically ignore Japanese brutality during WWII. This will only further the goals of Japanese nationalists and cause painful memories and lessons to be forgotten about.

Exactly. The textbook row is a good example of Japan's official views of its wartime history. It's absolutely disgusting that the government of Japan is goading its people into ultra-nationalism, the textbooks a good example.

In Japan, the Rape of Nanjing is referred to as the 'Nanjing Incident', and even when the massacre is mentioned, the death toll is significantly reduced.

Unfortunately, Japan isn't the only country obviously spreading propoganda. US textbooks' coverage of the genocide of the Native Americans is absolutely shocking. Massacres of Indian women and children are called 'battles', but US Army defeats are referred to as 'massacres'.

chimx
17th November 2006, 00:00
Originally posted by Tatanka [email protected] 16, 2006 11:35 pm
but US Army defeats are referred to as 'massacres'.
like the battle of the little bighorn?

Phalanx
17th November 2006, 00:57
Right, and like the "Battle" of Wounded Knee.

chimx
17th November 2006, 04:27
battle of little big horn = custer's last stand (ie. U.S. defeat)

Alejandro C
17th November 2006, 07:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2006 03:23 pm

Denying the figures is an implicit denial of the existence of the incident. What do you think Holocaust deniers are doing? They are politically motivated to question the numbers in order to make it less of an important issue and in order to challenge its existence.


I never expect so many people to defend the current Chinese Government.
You are seriously confused. The Nanjing Massacre has all to do with Japanese aggression and nothing to do with the current Chinese government.

I'm surprised that you are defending Japanese imperialism! :angry:
I was not defending anything, I was attacking the way the current Chinese government is using the figures, I think that was clear. I'm not talking about the massacre, in case you haven't noticed, what I really was trying to talk about was the way the current government is using the numbers from the massacre.

I still fail to see, and I will never see, the connection between looking for a true figure and denying the massacre. This is completely illogical. I won't deny that some people's efforts to reduce the number have been politically motivated. But that does not mean that every person looking for the real number is a Japanese imperialist who really wants to discredit the fact that the massacre took place.

Simply questioning the figures, as everyone has done in the history since the massacre, makes me a denier of it all? That is a ridiculous thing to say.

Can you really tell me that you are certain about that number, when every credible research puts it in the range of 200,000-300,000. Why is it that only you and the Chinese government are so positive that it was exactly 300,000. I guess you and them are the only non-defenders of Japanese Imperialism, right?

Alejandro C
17th November 2006, 07:52
Originally posted by Fidelbrand+November 16, 2006 01:56 pm--> (Fidelbrand @ November 16, 2006 01:56 pm)
Originally posted by Alejandro [email protected] 16, 2006 12:36 am

[email protected] 15, 2006 07:12 am
P.S. My grannie's brother was killed in the massacre. This is my family's eye-witnessed history. Fuck with that.. i will brush your ass-hole with a toilet-brush!


Woah, settle down. I clearly wasn't saying that it never took place, nor that it wasn't horrible. I guess you all made same mistake that I did: focusing on the wrong thing. And in an effort to correct this, I started another thread you can be angry about for no reason. I never expect so many people to defend the current Chinese Government. I didn't know it was like that. But anyway look for the other topic and please get back to the other discussion, it was a good one. Sorry again for disrupting it.
My post was not directed at you, it's directed at any persons who tries to play down the barbaric act of imperialist Japan, which sleeps with one-eye open nowadays, waiting for an opportunity to do some big shit with U$.

As to your post, I agree that all politics involves exaggeration, and PRC 's government is no exception.

But I wish to say is that : The massacre, the killing competition, hurts the hearts of Chinese people. Japan never officially apologizes and we still see old people go protesting and crying for this horrific past.

The whole samurai spirit is a fucked-up idea.
Good to see the new youth of Japan is so "into" their PS2 and porn videos. [/b]
I guess I just assumed that "your ass-hole" meant my asshole. My mistake.

I agree with you about the Samurai spirit. It seems to be idolized everywhere from cartoons, to movies, to hip-hop. Its all over our culture, but I think its disgusting. Back in those days non-samurai didn't even have names, and samurai could kill any non-samurai for any reason or no reason. That is truly barbaric. I don't know why that image is so enshrined in "honor".
Anyway, what do you think of the new PM, Abe? He seems to be much less of a fucking dick. Maybe the Japanese will finally have a leader that doesn't openly worship war criminals.

Marukusu
17th November 2006, 12:23
Originally posted by Alejandro C
Anyway, what do you think of the new PM, Abe? He seems to be much less of a fucking dick.

Shinzo Abe denies that japanese soldiers during WWII used "comfort women" and was one in charge of the "Japanese Society for History Textbook Reform" (according to Wikipedia).
So it seems like Japan will continue to be the biggest "dick" in Asia under his reign, which is very sad for the korean and chinese peoples.

Wanted Man
17th November 2006, 13:10
Originally posted by Tatanka [email protected] 16, 2006 11:16 pm
The Rape of Nanjing is barely discussed in any US schools, many people here don't even know it occured.
It's the same here. In high school, we hardly even learned anything about the war in the Pacific, except a few passing sentences about how Japan attacked the US at Pearl Harbor, and got their asses kicked with a nuke in return, ending the war. History classes suck. We must all seek our own knowledge, for that which they teach us at school is insufficient.

Janus
18th November 2006, 00:00
Simply questioning the figures, as everyone has done in the history since the massacre, makes me a denier of it all? That is a ridiculous thing to say.
Revisionism itself is not a negative thing but when political motivations are in play, then it generally is.

You still don't get it do you? When you debate such events as the Nanjing Massacre, it's pretty much impossible to have a simple innoncent debate over the figures. Rejecting the figures is a form of denial. What do you think Holocaust deniers call themselves these days?


I'm not talking about the massacre, in case you haven't noticed, what I really was trying to talk about was the way the current government is using the numbers from the massacre.
Forget the Chinese government; I'm talking about the Nanjing Massacre itself. Denying figures carries the undertones of denying the event itself. It is an implicit attempt to downplay and minimize the event. I can't believe that you think otherwise especially when the only people who really challenge the figures are Japanese historians.


But that does not mean that every person looking for the real number is a Japanese imperialist who really wants to discredit the fact that the massacre took place.

Like I said, there is few debate over the figures outside of Japan just as there is few debate over the Holocaust figures outside Holocaust revisionists.


Can you really tell me that you are certain about that number, when every credible research puts it in the range of 200,000-300,000. Why is it that only you and the Chinese government are so positive that it was exactly 300,000.
Well, first of all, it would depend on the area you take into account and the duration of time that you wanna take into account.


I guess you and them are the only non-defenders of Japanese Imperialism, right?

Reexamining history isn't a bad thing in itself but you must take into account that that when dealing with incidents such as this there are always political motivations for doing so. Questioning figures is never simply a harmless debate as you claim it to be but rather means that you are buying into the propaganda of those who want to downplay the event.

Leo
18th November 2006, 00:06
Originally posted by Fidelbrand
Good to see the new youth of Japan is so "into" their PS2 and porn videos.

I sense a little racism under that as well but anyway <_<

Fidelbrand
18th November 2006, 08:47
Originally posted by Leo Uilleann+November 18, 2006 08:06 am--> (Leo Uilleann @ November 18, 2006 08:06 am)
Fidelbrand
Good to see the new youth of Japan is so "into" their PS2 and porn videos.

I sense a little racism under that as well but anyway <_< [/b]
I was thinking more on their ultra-materialism and moral depravity when I was saying that.

Alejandro C
20th November 2006, 15:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2006 06:00 pm

Simply questioning the figures, as everyone has done in the history since the massacre, makes me a denier of it all? That is a ridiculous thing to say.

You still don&#39;t get it do you? When you debate such events as the Nanjing Massacre, it&#39;s pretty much impossible to have a simple innoncent debate over the figures. Rejecting the figures is a form of denial. What do you think Holocaust deniers call themselves these days?

Well I guess I am doing the pretty much impossible then. Unless you are saying that I am flat out denying that the massacre took place or that I support the Japanese aggression and the horrible things they did, then I am having an innocent debate about the numbers. (and surely you wouldn&#39;t way that would you&#33;) Really all I was doing was questioning the way the PRC government was using the numbers and how that implies their using humiliation to whip up nationalism. And that in turn can be used as one example to open the possibility that they use other numbers in the same way. It was a what if.. type of thinking exercise that got way bent out of shape. But at least I learned a lot about my opinion from it and I&#39;m hoping that you and everyone does too. I understand your points and I hope you understand mine.

Phalanx
24th November 2006, 21:08
Originally posted by Fidelbrand+November 18, 2006 08:47 am--> (Fidelbrand @ November 18, 2006 08:47 am)
Originally posted by Leo [email protected] 18, 2006 08:06 am

Fidelbrand
Good to see the new youth of Japan is so "into" their PS2 and porn videos.

I sense a little racism under that as well but anyway <_<
I was thinking more on their ultra-materialism and moral depravity when I was saying that. [/b]
But that&#39;s still racism. If you think a culture as a whole is morally depraved and materialistic, that&#39;s generalizing.

Janus
24th November 2006, 22:18
Unless you are saying that I am flat out denying that the massacre took place or that I support the Japanese aggression and the horrible things they did, then I am having an innocent debate about the numbers. (and surely you wouldn&#39;t way that would you&#33;)
You are not flat out denying the massacre but questioning of the numbers is an implicit denial of the tragedy that took place. I have already explained to you how similar this is to what Holocaust deniers are doing.


Really all I was doing was questioning the way the PRC government was using the numbers and how that implies their using humiliation to whip up nationalism.
The Chinese government did not simply pick a bunch of numbers out of a hat. Like I said, established military tribunals estimated the numbers to be over 300,000. Was the Japanese invasion used in propaganda to build up Chinese nationalism and anti-Japanese resistance? Yes, it was. However, saying that the numbers were manipulated by the Chinese government to gain pity from the world is subscribing to the revisionist history of Japanese nationalists. Furthermore, this is also similar once again to what Holocaust deniers are doing when they state that it was all a Zionist conspiracy.


I understand your points and I hope you understand mine.
Yes, but I must once again caution you that historical revisionism is generally a positive thing but when there are political motivations behind it, it is not.