communist and socialist states - what countries are commie o

[revo roy]

what countries are socialist or communinist now?,can i have a little help please

[MiNdGaMe]

Their is a post somewhere around which has a discussion about this, Vietnam, China, North Korea, Cuba are or claimed to communist/socialist, "workers states". This will start up a discussion no doubt.

[angry]

i think cuba is still the only real communist/socialist state in the world now..

[thursday night]

The last remaining socialist states are Cuba, China, North Korea, Vietnam and Laos. There is some debate that Libya should be included.

Moldova and Mongolia have their former ruling Communist Parties as their elected governments, and Venezuala currently has a radically left-wing government.

[synthesis]

Isn't Ethiopia still Communist?

[BRIN]

isn't brazil with its Lula also socialist


Dyermaker in your mexico wasn't there a socialist revolution because correct me if i'm wrong but the mural in your capital depicts Karl Marx and the class stugle with the workers fighting the nazis(goverment)and chritianity(catholic church)

[Saint-Just]

Ecuador has a socialist coalition ruling, of 5 parties I think, one of them a Marxist-Leninist party.

Cuba and DPRK are Marxist-Leninist. China, Vietnam and Laos are revisionist.

Brazil has the workers' party in power. Venezuala has a radical left wing government exactly as thursday says and Moldova and Mongolia have their former Communist party's ruling.

The only true Marxist-Leninist parties are ruling in DPRK and Cuba. There are some revisionist Communist states and some just radical left.

[thursday night]

Vietnam and Laos are revisionist.

Debatable, mostly regarding the Socialist Republic of Vietnam because I know little about the PDR of Laos. I know that there have been economic revisions in Vietnam but I don't know if they are on par with the completely revisionism of the PRC. At least Vietnam has continued to support Marxist-Leninist-Minist theory and promotes the written works of Ho Chi Minh and other former socialist leaders.

Also, Vietnam and Cuba continue to further their diplomatic relations. They are close trading partners and Fidel is quick to praise the new society being built in Vietnam.

[bolshevik1917]

This debate is nonsense - there is no such thing as socialism in one country, and the countries mentioned here are mostly dictatorships

[Cassius Clay]

Here's my two sense on the question?

The PRC is NOT Socialist, or Communist or anything pro-working class. It is a Fascist state ran for the sole purpose of profit. Ask Deng himself. 'It's great to be rich'.

As for the others well my own opinion is that there are no socialist states as of 2003. But I'll try to give a balanced interpretation none the less. Vietnam, I visitited the party's website and to my pleasant surprise I found it seems they are more commited to 'Socialism' than I thought. 'We are dedicated to building Socialism' I belief they said at the latest party congress, well for all their faults atleast the rhectoric is there. But rhectoric is not good enough, what about the obvious market 'reforms' from the early 90's or the Nike factories? Do the workers really own the means of production in Vietnam? I doubt it.

I still remain unconvinced about the DPRK. A fundamental part of Marxism is criticism and self-criticism, does this exist in North Korea? To my understanding it is the complete opposite, Kim II Sung is literally credited with miricales. Kim declared that socialism could be built with a 'Korean Face', revisionist no? Also alot of the DPRK's rhectoric and understanding seems to be based on 'Korean Unification=Socialism' as in all classes can take part in the final part of Communism, including bourgesie. What about these new 'Special Economic Zones'?

Now we get to Cuba. There's been alot of mistakes made, Cuba became far to dependent on the Soviet Union and suffered huge problems when the SU collapsed. Now they appear to becoming dependent on the EU. It is true that the USSR in Lenin and Stalin's time used Capitalism and inter-imperialist rivalries to advance, as Lenin said 'Capitalism will sell us the rope by which we will hang it' but Cuba is becoming in dect by millions.

I will say that Cuba is the most 'socialist' state on the planet, and workers are far more free than anywhere else but there are serious criticisms of the Cuban regime and Castro which need to be made. None of which are my orginal ideas and none of which I can remember right now, LOL.

Chairman Mao and Thursday I hope in the interests of debate you both respond. Afterall nobody is above criticism while at the same time no Communist nation can ever be expected to ignore geopolitics and stick to a 'Orthordox' line no matter what the circumstances. And every nation faces different circumstances and has a different culture etc. Hopefully you will prove me wrong.


Bolshevik1917, 'no such thing as socialism in one country' erhm right.. Anyway would you like to show any of us a example of a Trotskyite revolution, nation, producing practical results ever? Atleast genuine Marxists can point to the USSR, Albania, Cuba, DPRK, PRC, GDR or other countless examples while what do Trots have to show? Nothing.

[Anonymous]

Brasil ISNT socialist...

Lula himself declared that he didnt wanted to build a socialist state but a "more human capitalism"...

in other words he is a revisionist...
nevertheless i stil think he is doing the right thing...
since the disapearing of the SU it is hard to be Marxist-leninist since there isnt a super power to back us up..

so i would say taht Brasil is the "good" capitalist system..

since it is nothing but a "more human" capitalist state..

no revolution happened, no marxist-leninist ideals were put in practice..
only some reforms... (wich arent reallyt working because Lula as followed is antcesstors economical policys...)

[Dynatos II]

Quote: from Cassius Clay on 9:37 pm on April 22, 2003


Anyway would you like to show any of us a example of a Trotskyite revolution, nation, producing practical results ever? Atleast genuine Marxists can point to the USSR, Albania, Cuba, DPRK, PRC, GDR or other countless examples while what do Trots have to show? Nothing.




with your defenition of 'socialism', can you show me a successful 'socialist' country?

Maby Cuba. Its far from being successful when people have a hard time finding a decent refrigerater or a television. Sure Castro has the popular support and theres plenty of food for the Cuban people but truth is that when you walk down a street in Havana you can see that theres a lack of goods of every kind. Cuba isn't what i would call successful.

North Korea. There are thousands of kids dieing of starvation every year in North Korea plus they don't even have enough electricity the turn on the street lights in the cities. That is far from successful.

China. Its going back to capitalism anyway so the best we can say about 'socialism' in China is that it failed. And only 90 million people had to die to build this 'socialism' that never succeded.

USSR. The Soviet Union did make enourmous advances economicaly (They could have made better advances if they became a genuine workers state) but the living standards still were lower than those in the west and lets face it, the people that lived there werent exacly happy. Nobody likes to live in a totalitarian state. They were living in constant fear during Stalins time. During the 80s the industrial growth rate was next to zero. If this was 'socialism' in the Soviet Union then 'socialism doesn't work.

With your defenition of socialism, socialism has never worked. Theres never been a 'Trotskite revolution' but I think its allot better to not be able to show you an example of a revolution than to be able to show you a dozen failed revolutions. And i can show you a dozen failed Stalinist revolutions.

[Rodneo]

brazil is far from being socialist, and not even close from being the "good capitalist"

(Edited by Rodneo at 4:11 am on April 23, 2003)

[synthesis]

Does anyone know of a site which lists all the countries which have had self-proclaimed Marxist governments? If not, I might make one myself.

The ones I can recall:
Cuba, North Korea, China, Russia, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, France, the Congo, Albania, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Venezuela, Spain, Portugal, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Mongolia, Moldovia, Grenada, Libya, Iraq, Ecuador, Serbia, Nicaragua, and Chile.

I'm sure I missed far too many for a suitable list. Additions?


(Edited by DyerMaker at 4:17 am on April 24, 2003)

[Anonymous]

Portugal (yes until the fucking bourgeouse liberalists stoped the revolution in 1975)
and i think Mexico was socialist as well but i dont know this for sure...

plus you forgot:
East Germany (RDA), Yoguslavia (how can you forget comrade Tito???), Poland, and the countrys of the warsaw pact...

[Cassius Clay]

''your defenition of 'socialism', can you show me a successful 'socialist' country?''

Erm did you actually read any of my post? Sure look at the USSR between the early 30's and 1953 or Albania under Hoxha. I suppose with my definition of 'Socialism' whatever the hell that is these would be two example's of successful 'socialist' countries.


''Maby Cuba. Its far from being successful when people have a hard time finding a decent refrigerater or a television. Sure Castro has the popular support and theres plenty of food for the Cuban people but truth is that when you walk down a street in Havana you can see that theres a lack of goods of every kind. Cuba isn't what i would call successful.''

And I suppose under Capitalism they would have all the material objects and freedom entitled to the people of Argentina or the Phillipines. I have many criticisms of the Cuban regime but atleast the people there are entitled to free healthcare, education and shelter. I criticise Cuba and Castro because I think there are alot of Capitalist elements to the economy and to much beuracracy. Not because every kid doesn't have a playstation. Simply you are measuring 'Success' not taking into account any of the circumstances (like a embargo), geopolitics, culture, background or comparision to the alternative. Your measuring it by what life is like/portrayed on Fox or CNN for the average white american family.


''North Korea. There are thousands of kids dieing of starvation every year in North Korea plus they don't even have enough electricity the turn on the street lights in the cities. That is far from successful.''

How is the government of North Korea responsible for a series of freak natural diasters. Also this is doubtless overexagerated by Imperialist media. Criticise the DPRK for alot of things, but not this.

''China. Its going back to capitalism anyway so the best we can say about 'socialism' in China is that it failed. And only 90 million people had to die to build this 'socialism' that never succeded.''

Agreed. But where do you get this '90 million' from?


''USSR. The Soviet Union did make enourmous advances economicaly (They could have made better advances if they became a genuine workers state) but the living standards still were lower than those in the west and lets face it, the people that lived there werent exacly happy. Nobody likes to live in a totalitarian state. They were living in constant fear during Stalins time. During the 80s the industrial growth rate was next to zero. If this was 'socialism' in the Soviet Union then 'socialism doesn't work.''

No revisionism doesn't work. In 1917 among other diasters and circumstances alot of Russians/Soviets were stuck in the 15th Century in terms of standards of living. By the 1950's the average Soviet enjoyed a standard of living equal to that of a average American. 'Totiltarian state' do you belief this because George Orwell told you it was like that? Workers had the power to fire their own managers or officials. Your right about the 80's but it doesn't help when the leader of the nation is in the CIA's pocket. If the 'people who lived their weren't exactly happy' then why is it the majority of people who grew up in the 1930's, 40's and 50's now vote for the present day Communists in Russia and throughout the former Soviet Union?


''With your defenition of socialism, socialism has never worked. Theres never been a 'Trotskite revolution' but I think its allot better to not be able to show you an example of a revolution than to be able to show you a dozen failed revolutions. And i can show you a dozen failed Stalinist revolutions.''

Well thanx for answering my originall question, there's never been one. Despite the fact you appear to have a very narrow definition of the word 'failed' I'll just point out that nobody ever said we would win first time around.

[Dhul Fiqar]

It would be interesting to see a complete list of countries that have described themselves as socialist or communist in the past or present (regardless of the veracity of such statements)...

USSR (and all those Warsaw pact countries I will never be able to name them all), PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, Mongolia, Afghanistan, DPRK, Albania, Yugoslavia...

I'm sure that I'm forgetting a few, besides of course all the Eastern bloc that was carved up after the USSR fell, but esentially they declared it together.

--- G.

[Dynatos II]

''look at the USSR between the early 30's and 1953''

A country with mass famines and mass state executions is not what i would call a healthy workers state.

''By the 1950's the average Soviet enjoyed a standard of living equal to that of a average American.''

Where did you get that from? The living standards were not even close to the western living standards. There were housing shortages, health care comparible to that of Britains at the begining of the century (but not for the beurocratic elite), only 9% of the famlies had a refrigerator, the average wage was only 85roubles/month, 18% of the famlies had a TV set and 5% of households had a car.

'' 'Totiltarian state' do you belief this because George Orwell told you it was like that?''

I never read his books. I call it that because thats what you call it when there is no free speach and people get sent to the gulag for being 15minutes late for work.

''If the 'people who lived their weren't exactly happy' then why is it the majority of people who grew up in the 1930's, 40's and 50's now vote for the present day Communists in Russia and throughout the former Soviet Union?''

Well because it was way better to live in 1930-1950 Russia than to live in Russia today.

''Workers had the power to fire their own managers or officials.''

LOL

''Despite the fact you appear to have a very narrow definition of the word 'failed' I'll just point out that nobody ever said we would win first time around.''

Whats the goal of socialism? Its to 1.establish the dictatership of the proletariat and 2.later establish communism. No state that claim to be socialist succeded in doing any of these two things therefor they all failed.

[thursday night]

Unfortunately for you, Dynatos, everything Cassius Clay stated was in fact true. Please, try to learn things from true sources: not right-wing books and watching Enemy at the Gates.

[Umoja]

Ethiopia, I believe has had it's government collapse numerous times, and it's government is an unstable republic operating under at the bottom of a Capitalist pyramid. Ethiopia did much better under a monarchy, I must admit. They were self proclaimed Marxist in the 70's though.

[Sankara1983]

This is the closest thing to a complete list of communist and socialist governments/states I can compile:

Marxist-Leninist

- Albania (1946-1991)
- Cuba (1959- )
- Czechoslovakia (mid 1940s-late 1980s)
- Democratic People's Republic of Korea (1948- )
- Democratic Republic of Afghanistan (1978-1987)
- Democratic Republic of Vietnam (1945-1976)
- German Democratic Republic (1949-1989)
- Hungary (1918-1919, late 1940s-1989)
- Lao People's Democratic Republic (1975- )
- Mongolian People's Republic (1924-1992)
- People's Democratic Republic of Yemen (1970-1990)
- People's Republic of Bulgaria (1946-1990)
- People's Republic of China (1949- )
- People's Republic of Kampuchea (1979-1989)
- Poland (late 1940s-1989)
- Romania (1947-1989)
- Socialist Ethiopia (1974-1991)
- Socialist Republic of Vietnam (1976- )
- Tuvinian People's Republic (1921-1944)
- Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (1922-1991)
* Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic (1920-1990)
* Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic (1920-1990)
* Belorussian Soviet Socialist Republic (1920-1991)
* Bukharan Soviet Socialist Republic (1920-1925)
* Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic (1940-1990)
* Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic (1921-1990)
* Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic (1940-1956)
* Kazakh Soviet Socialist Republic (1936-1991)
* Khorazmian Soviet Socialist Republic (1920-1925)
* Kirgiz Soviet Socialist Republic (1936-1990)
* Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic (1940-1990)
* Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic (1940-1990)
* Moldavian Soviet Socialist Republic (1944-1991)
* Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic (1918-1991)
* Tadzhik Soviet Socialist Republic (1929-1991)
* Transcaucasian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (1922-1936)
* Turkmen Soviet Socialist Republic (1924-1991)
* Uzbek Soviet Socialist Republic (1924-1991)
- Yugoslavia (1945-1992)

Radical socialist

- Algeria (1962-1980s)
- Bangladesh (1971-1975)
- Burkina Faso (1983-late 1980s)
* comment: established 4 August 1983 by former PM Thomas Sankara; country renamed Burkina Faso 4 August 1984; Sankara murdered in coup, 15 October 1987.
- Burundi (1966-1976)
* comment: this era is usually remembered as one of Tutsi ethnic chauvinism, partly responsible for later civil war. Ideology something called "Micombérisme"
- Cape Verde (1975-late 1980s)
* comment: based on socialist ideals of Amílcar Cabral
- Comoros (1975-1978)
* comment: rare bastion of social liberalism in the Islamic world, combined with radical economic reforms and confrontation with France over status of Mayotte
- Democratic Republic of Madagascar (1975-1992)
* comment: nicknamed "Africa's North Korea"
- Ghana (1957-1966)
* comment: Kwame Nkrumah
- Grenada (1979-1983)
- Guinea (1958-1984)
- Guinea-Bissau (1973-1982)
* comment: based on socialist ideals of Amílcar Cabral; socialist planning effectively ended in 1982, but rhetorical leftism continued until early 1990s
- Guyana (1953, 1961-1964, late 1960s/early 1970s-late 1980s)
- Mali (1960-1968)
- Nicaragua (1979-1990)
* comment: ideologically heterogeneous junta
- Paraguay (1813-1840 [sic], 1936-1937)
* comment: Francia, the first dictator, is described as a "Jacobin" or "Saint-Simonist". The 1936-1937 military interlude is sometimes also described as a failed fascist experiment
- People's Republic of Angola (1975-1992)
- People's Republic of Benin (1975-1990)
- People's Republic of Mozambique (1975-1990)
- People's Republic of the Congo (1970-1992)
- People's Republic of Zanzibar (1964)
* comment: during the brief period of the island's independence before integration into Tanzania
- Provisional Government of Free India (1943-1945)
- São Tomé and Príncipe (1975-mid 1980s)
- Seychelles (1977-early 1990s)
- Tanzania (1961-mid 1980s)

Democratic left

- Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela (1999- )
- Bolivia (1952-1964)
- Ceylon/Sri Lanka (1956-1960, 1960-1965, 1970-1977)
- Chile (1970-1973)
- Dominican Republic (1963)
* comment: President Bosch deposed by coup d'état
- Fiji (1987)
- Guatemala (1945-1954)
* comment: President Arévalo was self-proclaimed "spiritual socialist"; Arbenz deepened reforms and was deposed in CIA-backed coup
- India (1947-1970s/1980s)
- Jamaica (1972-1980)
- Jordan (1956-1957)
- Malta (1971-1984)
* comment: pro-Libyan Labour ministry under PM Dom Mintoff
- Manitoba (1969-1977)
- Martinique (1983-1992)
- Milwaukee (1910-1912, 1916-1940, 1948-1960)
- Minneapolis (1917-1919)
- Minnesota (1931-1939)
- Pakistan (1971-1977)
* comment: Zulfikar Ali Bhutto
- Peru (1945-1948)
* comment: Aprista rule
- Saint Kitts and Nevis (1960-1980)
- Saskatchewan (1944-1964)
- Senegal (1960-1980s)
- Singapore (1955-1959)
* comment: Labour Front ministries, originally headed by David Marshall
- South Africa (1994- )
- Spain (mid 1930s-1939)
- Trinidad and Tobago (1962-early 1980s)
* comment: sometimes described as "state capitalism"
- Venezuela (1945-1948)
- Zambia (1964-196.)

Elected communists

- Kerala (1957-1959, 1967-1977, 1978-1979, 1980-1981, 1987-1991, 1996-2001)
- Manipur (1993)
- Martinique (1992-1998)
- Moldova (2001- )
- Nepal (1994-1995)
- Réunion (1949-1966, 1983-1986, 1998- )
- Tripura (1978-1988, 1993-1998)
- West Bengal (1977- )

Military left-nationalist

- Bolivia (1970-1971)
- Egypt (1954-1970s)
- Ghana (1981-mid 1980s)
- Iraq (1958-1968)
- Libya (1969- )
- Panama (1968-1981)
- Peru (1968-1975)
- Portugal (1974-1976)
- Somalia (1969-1991)
- Venezuela (1941-1945, 1958)

Anti-imperialist

- Congo-Léopoldville (1960)
- French Polynesia (1957-1958, 2005- )
- Indonesia (1949-1967)
* comment: ruled by Sukarno and Hatta
- Iran (1951-1953)
* comment: ministry of Mohammad Mossadegh; not leftist
- New Caledonia (1982-1984)
- Niger (1957-1958)
- Palestinian National Authority (1994- )
- Saharan Arab Democratic Republic (1976- )
- Zimbabwe (1980-19..)

Baath Party

Baathism is officially a socialist ideology, but except for the 1960s in Syria, it was never implemented as such. Ahmad Hasan al-Bakr and Saddam Hussein had brief flirtations with the ICP to shore up political support.

- Iraq (1968-2003)
- Syria (1960s- )

Ephemeral

- Azerbaijan People's Republic (1918-1920)
- Democratic Republic of East Timor (1975)
- Estonian Conciliar Republic (1918-1919)
- Finnish Democratic Republic (1939-1940)
- Georgian Democratic Republic (1918-1921)
- Latvian Conciliar Republic (1918)
- Latvian Socialist Conciliar Republic (1919)
- Lithuanian-Belorussian Soviet Socialist Republic (1919)
- Lithuanian Conciliar Republic (1918-1919)
- Republic of Armenia (1918-1920)
- Socialist Republic of Chile (1932)
- Sudan (Communist-backed coup succeeded for four days in 1971)
- Ukrainian People's Republic (1918)

Other

- Burma (1960s-late 1980s)
* comment: almost universally condemned as non-socialist
- Democratic Kampuchea (1976-1979)
* comment: ditto
- Ecuador (1979-1981)
* comment: probably more populist than leftist
- Mexico (on-and-off since the Revolution of 1910; the three "leftist" presidents in the PRI era were Cárdenas [1934-1940], López Mateos [1958-1964] and Echeverría [1970-1976])
- Sudan (1969-1980s)
- Tunisia (1964-1981)
- Uganda (1962-1971)
- Vanuatu (1980-1991)

[Janus]

Wow Sankara, you seem to have done your homework unless you just got that from a web site.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Cuba, North Korea, China, Russia, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, France, the Congo, Albania, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Venezuela, Spain, Portugal, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Mongolia, Moldovia, Grenada, Libya, Iraq, Ecuador, Serbia, Nicaragua, and Chile.

Libya never claimed to be Marxist. Iraq?

When you include France, Spain and Portugal are you concluding that elected democratic socialists equate a "Marxist government"? They gave up Marxism years before.

[Lamanov]

This is probably the worst discussion I've ever seen.

None of the countries anywhere were socialist or communist... ever!

Their attempt in proclaiming themselves socialist has an ideological nature, but was far away from reality.


Communism is a classless, stateless democratic society.
Socialism, although never agreed upon one definition - in it's scientific layout is also a democratic society which transits it from capitalism to communism.

[Guerrilla22]

right, there never has been a communist state EVER! Also Vietnam, Laos, and China all have some sort of private business ownership, which does not make them socialist.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Sankara, interesting list. A few questions; 1) what are your sources? I'd like to read more about what you call an "anti-imperialist" government in French Polynesia for instance. 2) By what criteria do you differentiate "radical socialist" and "Marxist-Leninist"?

[Led Zeppelin]

Sankara1983's list is worthless:


Marxist-Leninist

- Albania (1946-1991)
- Cuba (1959- )
- Czechoslovakia (mid 1940s-late 1980s)
- Democratic People's Republic of Korea (1948- )
- Democratic Republic of Afghanistan (1978-1987)
- Democratic Republic of Vietnam (1945-1976)
- German Democratic Republic (1949-1989)
- Hungary (1918-1919, late 1940s-1989)
- Lao People's Democratic Republic (1975- )
- Mongolian People's Republic (1924-1992)
- People's Democratic Republic of Yemen (1970-1990)
- People's Republic of Bulgaria (1946-1990)
- People's Republic of China (1949- )
- People's Republic of Kampuchea (1979-1989)
- Poland (late 1940s-1989)
- Romania (1947-1989)
- Socialist Ethiopia (1974-1991)
- Socialist Republic of Vietnam (1976- )
- Tuvinian People's Republic (1921-1944)
- Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (1922-1991)
* Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic (1920-1990)
* Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic (1920-1990)
* Belorussian Soviet Socialist Republic (1920-1991)
* Bukharan Soviet Socialist Republic (1920-1925)
* Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic (1940-1990)
* Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic (1921-1990)
* Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic (1940-1956)
* Kazakh Soviet Socialist Republic (1936-1991)
* Khorazmian Soviet Socialist Republic (1920-1925)
* Kirgiz Soviet Socialist Republic (1936-1990)
* Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic (1940-1990)
* Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic (1940-1990)
* Moldavian Soviet Socialist Republic (1944-1991)
* Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic (1918-1991)
* Tadzhik Soviet Socialist Republic (1929-1991)
* Transcaucasian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (1922-1936)
* Turkmen Soviet Socialist Republic (1924-1991)
* Uzbek Soviet Socialist Republic (1924-1991)
- Yugoslavia (1945-1992)


The above doesn't make sense at all, for example Albania opposed all those other nations and did not acknowledge them as "Marxist-Leninist", the same for China and the Soviet Union, and vice versa.

Sankara1983's mistake is that he does not take into account the inner changes of those states, or their validity in terms of theory. He just puts any state on that list which had or still has "Marxist-Leninist" as its official ideology.

It's absurd to say that China under Mao is the same as China today in terms of the states ideology and policy.


what countries are socialist or communinist now?,can i have a little help please

None, which countries have been Socialist? I'd say the USSR was until 1929, when it became revisionist of Leninism.

[Sankara1983]

I never claimed that every country on the list was Marxist (Baathism, for example, is inherently non-Marxist). Its intention was to comprehensively list socialist, communist, and certain other states/governments that were not explicitly socialist but had similar goals.

"Marxist-Leninist" in my list generally means the Soviet Union and states heavily patterned after the Soviet example. Most of these governments could be described as "Stalinist", with some exceptions. "Radical socialist" includes many governments after decolonization in Africa, generally members of the Non-Aligned Movement, that were not established as Soviet-style states or drew on other, more vague traditions such as "African socialism."

Listing governments in the same category does not mean that they agreed with each other on every issue.

From an earlier post:


It would be interesting to see a complete list of countries that have described themselves as socialist or communist in the past or present (regardless of the veracity of such statements)

My including them in this list, I do not personally claim that any of these governments are/were socialist/communist, and I am fully cognizant of the fact that in Marxist theory, "communist state" is an oxymoron. However, there are honest differences of opinion on what constitutes "socialism."


When you include France, Spain and Portugal are you concluding that elected democratic socialists equate a "Marxist government"? They gave up Marxism years before.

France was not included. Most "democratic socialist" governments (such as the SPD in Germany, SAP in Sweden, or Labour in UK) were not included.


A few questions; 1) what are your sources? I'd like to read more about what you call an "anti-imperialist" government in French Polynesia for instance. 2) By what criteria do you differentiate "radical socialist" and "Marxist-Leninist"?

1) I compiled this list in about an hour from my previous very extensive knowledge of world politics. References can easily be checked in encyclopedias, almanacs, and general nonfiction works.

French Polynesia has had two spells of pro-independence nationalist governments on the left of the political spectrum. For background on the origins of the movement, I recommend "A brief history of the independence movement (http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1995/202/202cenb.htm)" (GLW #202).

2) See the second paragraph of my response.


It's absurd to say that China under Mao is the same as China today in terms of the states ideology and policy.

I originally thought to put
"- China (1949-take your pick)"
:)


Sankara1983's list is worthless

I'm sorry you feel that way.

---

I am completely open to further discussion about the list and clarification of historical interpretations. But please don't say something like "Saddam wasn't a socialist", because I know that.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

France was not included. Most "democratic socialist" governments (such as the SPD in Germany, SAP in Sweden, or Labour in UK) were not included.

Right, I wasn't refering to your list with that question though - I was refering to an earlier one which I quoted.


I am completely open to further discussion about the list and clarification of historical interpretations. But please don't say something like "Saddam wasn't a socialist", because I know that.

I think you made it clear that you were listing states that claimed to be socialist, etc. not that you felt they were. Maybe M-L didn't read that part?

[Led Zeppelin]

I think you made it clear that you were listing states that claimed to be socialist, etc. not that you felt they were. Maybe M-L didn't read that part?

He didn't make that clear at all, you know why? Because he didn't mention it.

All he said was:


This is the closest thing to a complete list of communist and socialist governments/states I can compile:

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

My mistake, I thought since he seemed to be responding to this:


It would be interesting to see a complete list of countries that have described themselves as socialist or communist in the past or present (regardless of the veracity of such statements)...

That he was listing countries that claimed to be socialist, etc.

I don't think anyone thinks that all those countries were socialist. Well maybe WWP in the US :lol:

[LA GUERRA OLVIDADA]

I'd say Cuba is the last workers state. Venezuela is becoming one.

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

I would say that at this very moment there are NO true Socialist (let alone Communist...) states in existence. In fact I would say that the only true Socialist state in history was the USSR from the October Revolution until Lenin's death. Also, although never definite states I would say that Barcelona/Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War, Germany (especially Bavaria) during 1919 were very revolutionary and established Socialist (and Anarchist in the case of Spain) governments/societies. I would also say that although not revolutionary in the traditional sense, The Bolivarian Revolution has been guided by the working class and has increasingly led to workers control and thus I would define it as a possible Socialist state in its nascency.

Of all the existing states that claim to be Socialist, the only state that I support/respect is Cuba, which although it did not come about through a democratic revolution and although it is a dictatorship at the moment has been the forerunner of anti-imperialism and has significantly improved the lives of the poor in Cuba and around the world. I know almost nothing about Laos but consider Vietnam and China to be fairly deviated from any semblance of Socialism and are practically Capitalist in nature. As for the DRPK...I find it hard to see how any Socialist could support that country let alone consider it Socialist. Its a highly authoritarian state where workers seem to have less control than even those in Western Capitalist states :-/.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Of all the existing states that claim to be Socialist, the only state that I support/respect is Cuba, which although it did not come about through a democratic revolution and although it is a dictatorship at the moment has been the forerunner of anti-imperialism and has significantly improved the lives of the poor in Cuba and around the world.

Except that:

1. The Cuban revolution is supported by the vast majority of Cubans
2. The revolution was a popular one that involved all sectors
3. Cuba is the most democratic nation on earth.[1] (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys5a.html) [2] (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys5b.html)

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 08:13 AM
Except that:

1. The Cuban revolution is supported by the vast majority of Cubans
2. The revolution was a popular one that involved all sectors
3. Cuba is the most democratic nation on earth.[1] (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys5a.html) [2] (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys5b.html)
I agree whole-heartedly with #'s 1 and 2 and support Cuba for this very reason. About #3: I never once doubted that Cuba had an electoral democracy, and I will not argue that it is the most democratic nation on Earth, but it is not the same thing as Socialist Democracy. The entire electoral system is very rigid, highly centralized and state-operated. Although Cuba has a great electoral system by bourgeoisie-democratic standards, it is not the same as a true Dicatorship of the Proletariat, where the proletariat as a class completely controls not only elections (and in fact I think most socialist democracies would be far more local-action-oriented) but the entire system of governance itself and where power would most often be exerted via neighborhood councils/workplace democracy. I understand the distinction I am making is fine and I'm sure it could be argued that Cuba contains elements of all that I have argued for but I make the distinction because it often appears to me that Cuba is a state where the government leads the people instead of the people leading the government if you know what I mean. It often seems like the 'vanguard' if you will (in a political, not revolutionary sense) leads the masses more often than the masses move the vanguard/government. However, trust me comrade, like I said before, I support Cuba and I DO NOT advocate any kind of revolution to remove Fidel or anything of that nature. I think it would be great if the Cuban proletariat 'jumped in the saddle' more often and took control of things, and movements towards this would be great, but any move to destroy the current government would be horrendous as it would be one of the biggest blows to the international Socialist movement.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

From the Revolutionary Youth's "Frequently Asked Questions" (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/faq.html):


Cuba -- where the workers control the means of production and distribution, and healthcare and education are completely free -- is the only genuinely socialist country in the world today; but revolutionary guerrilla wars are being waged in Colombia, India and the Philippines and revolutionary upsurges are occurring in places like Mexico and Bolivia. As a result of increasing class struggle and imperialist rivalries, the revolutionary communist movement is beginning to pick up the pieces and again advance towards world revolution.

Historically, capitalist rule and imperialist domination have been overthrown (or were on the way to being overthrown) in one way or another in the 15 republics that made up the USSR (Russia, Armenia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Moldova, Lithuania, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Georgia, Byelorussia, Estonia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan and Ukraine), China, Viet Nam, Laos, North Korea, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Grenada, Nicaragua, Romania, Poland, South Yemen, Mongolia, East Germany, Bulgaria, Burkino Faso, Angola, Albania, Yugoslavia, Hungary and Mozambique; but this doesn't always mean that genuine socialism was established. Often, the difficult conditions in which revolutionaries in those countries faced (such as imperialist encirclement, isolation and underdevelopment), or even the way the overthrow of capitalism occurred, gave rise to a bureaucratic caste (similar to union bureaucrats) and/or lead to a degeneration in the revolutionary process.

Still, this degenerated form of socialism was always much better than the system that proceeded it (which can can be seen by living standards before and after); and the revolutions in these countries contributed to what could have been the defeat of imperialism, which would have removed all barriers to the construction of genuine socialism in every country, thus paving the way for classless, communist society.

Since capitalism and imperialism are the main enemies of the toiling majority, revolutionary communists stand for the defense of all socialist countries (degenerated or not) from imperialist attack. At the same time, we fight against the rise of a bureaucratic caste and the degeneration of the revolutions in those countries; but do not do so in a way which weakens these countries in the face of imperialist aggression. The best way to fight against these ills is to fight for socialist revolutions in every country around the world.

Today, the governments of China, Viet Nam, Laos, and North Korea claim their countries are socialist, or are constructing socialism, but this is not true. The mainstream capitalist media often claims these countries are communist, but as you can tell from the actual definition of communism listed in this document, nothing could be further from the truth.

[RGacky3]

I think that list is very interesting.

This is'nt about if the countries are really communist or completely Socialist.

Its about Nations that claim to be Socialist and/or Have Socialist elements. No need to be purists about it, its not about if a country is a good example or not, its just a question of what states claim to be Socialist

[bluescouse]

Burma, (Myanmar). Is an interesting one, all industry was nationalised, they claimed to be socialist, but were the only nation with a state run economy, that never claimed to be Marxist.
They even had a state religion, a form of buddism.
Still they were a vicious military dictatership, strongly nationalist and isolationist.