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Revolutionary Souljah
14th November 2006, 18:26
http://www.victimsofcommunism.org/history_communism.php

are you serious?

im flabbergasted, speachless even.

Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
14th November 2006, 18:35
WTF is that all about. I was nearly sick when it said that bit about America being a symbol of freedom........What a load of bollocks.

Whitten
14th November 2006, 18:36
STupid beyond belief

Hegemonicretribution
14th November 2006, 18:43
There was a debate in OI about this some time ago: Link (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=41510&hl=memorial)

Comrade_Scott
14th November 2006, 22:44
Reply with a website showing the atrocities of capitalism eg. chile, panama, paraguay the list goes on and on...... all because they opposed the communist menace :lol: bullshit

Comrade_Scott
14th November 2006, 23:00
seriously the reason why such crap exists is because of the stigma attached to communism thanks to the horendous acts commited by the so-called communist/ socialist states except cuba..... educate and show the truth about communism and shit like this site will go away fast

which doctor
14th November 2006, 23:05
I still wonder how so many people can have been killed by an idea that's never been actually put in place.

:wacko:

BreadBros
15th November 2006, 01:22
In October 1917, the Bolshevik Revolution -- the murderous Russian coup-d'etat -- birthed the deadliest mass killing force ever visited upon the human race: Communism. In less than 100 years, Communism has claimed more than 100 million lives. Today, it continues to enslave one-fifth of the world's people.

:o RUN FOR YOUR FUCKING LIVES! THE MURDEROUS BOLSHEVIK MASS KILLING FORCE IS COMING TO KILL THE HUMAN RACE!

:marx: :engles: :trotski: :che: :castro: :ph34r:

Janus
15th November 2006, 02:05
They're creating this now? Doesn't make much sense but then neither does the idea.

MrDoom
15th November 2006, 02:07
Infuriating.

And the dumb masses will swallow every bit of it.

RevolutionaryMarxist
15th November 2006, 02:55
I remember my dad was/is a supporter of this museum (he's also a Holocaust-Denier so that about says it).

Clearly though, the people will acknowledge it, but it won't become a holy ground/museum like the Holocaust museum. It has very low publicity, and from what I remember, they had huge trouble fundraising/trying to build it.

Red October
15th November 2006, 03:14
why are they building a memorial to 100 million people who were killed by an idea? why not just have a memorial to people killed by dictators of all sorts, from stalin to pinochet? why do they feel americans need ot be reminded of the threat posed by communism? the cold war is done, get over it. the statues is ugly too. hopefully they wont get it funded.

The Author
15th November 2006, 04:06
Hmm....

http://www.victimsofcommunism.org/photogallery/gallery185/captive-nations-01b----07-19-06.jpg

The "Goddess of Democracy" of Tiananmen 1989 comes to mind...

http://www.flyingfists.org/archives/goddess%20jpeg.jpg

http://www.rwf.gr/uploads/photos/goddess%20of%20democracy.jpg

Janus
15th November 2006, 04:18
That was supposed to symbolize the anti-gov. movement rather than anti-communism.

The Author
15th November 2006, 04:41
And yet almost every Western government saw this "movement" as a campaign to "democratize" China and remove the "Communist apparatus" as was taking place in Eastern Europe that year and in the USSR two years later.

The website says it all:


When the student voices of freedom were silenced at Tiananmen Square...

Apparently, the people in charge of this "memorial" decided to choose that particular icon to represent the "victims."

Tekun
15th November 2006, 09:50
I guess therez no mention of the innocent lives lost during the US bombing raids in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos
Or how about the number of ppl that died during slavery, reconstruction, and the years leading up to the civil rights era, they must have forgotten this
Or maybe they just overlooked the native american genocide...they'll get that next year :rolleyes:

Nevertheless, these are more attacks against the radical left from those who oppose worker's empowerement
The data is grossly exagerrated, and meant to scare the shit out of everyone
Not to mention that they "confuse" communism with several authoritarian regimes, which were anything but representative of true communism

VukBZ2005
15th November 2006, 11:17
Shows how "retarded" some people can be. I would not be surprised if this non-sense of a monument goes up. But I guess, as long as there is not a strong revolutionary working class movement in the United States, people would gobble everything their society tells them about what Communism is actually, and this monument would just help to add to that.

There should be a "Victims of Capitalism" memorial instead, to honor all of the people that have died because of Capitalist society.

ComradeR
15th November 2006, 11:45
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 04:41 am
And yet almost every Western government saw this "movement" as a campaign to "democratize" China and remove the "Communist apparatus" as was taking place in Eastern Europe that year and in the USSR two years later.

The website says it all:


When the student voices of freedom were silenced at Tiananmen Square...

Apparently, the people in charge of this "memorial" decided to choose that particular icon to represent the "victims."
Funny they ignored the fact that the protesters in Tiananmen Square were not trying to topple the Communist state and install a western democracy, when you actually look into it you find they were communists pushing for freedom of speech, freedom of press, and more power to the workers, in short THEY WERE PUSHING FOR A TRUE COMMUNTIST STATE. They were waving red flags and wearing red headbands, shouting revolutanary slogans, and when the suvivers left the square they held hands and were singing The International. In fact it could actually be argued that it was the first true communist revolution of our time.

Lenin's Law
15th November 2006, 13:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2006 11:05 pm
I still wonder how so many people can have been killed by an idea that's never been actually put in place.

:wacko:
:lol:

Great reply! This memorial is just another attempt by the reactionaries to stifle dissent and darken the good name of "socialism" and basically all radical-left ideas. Fortunately, little attention will be paid to this by the working people of this or any country. I advise that we revolutionaries do likewise.

Jazzratt
15th November 2006, 14:02
Originally posted by Lenin's [email protected] 15, 2006 01:31 pm
Fortunately, little attention will be paid to this by the working people of this or any country.
I wish I had your optimism about it. The workers in AMerica and many other countries often have an unfourtunate streak of reaction in them and unfourtunatley I think only workers who are already consciouss will ignore this, but many others may not.

Personally if I were in America I'd be right up for fucking it up.

Joby
15th November 2006, 14:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 04:41 am
And yet almost every Western government saw this "movement" as a campaign to "democratize" China and remove the "Communist apparatus" as was taking place in Eastern Europe that year and in the USSR two years later.


Of course, the East Germans who overthrew the Sovies are now the leadership of the Left Party...


This will never be erected. At least, not until the Chinese stop calling themselves socialist.

Joby
15th November 2006, 14:13
Originally posted by ComradeR+November 15, 2006 11:45 am--> (ComradeR @ November 15, 2006 11:45 am)
[email protected] 15, 2006 04:41 am
And yet almost every Western government saw this "movement" as a campaign to "democratize" China and remove the "Communist apparatus" as was taking place in Eastern Europe that year and in the USSR two years later.

The website says it all:


When the student voices of freedom were silenced at Tiananmen Square...

Apparently, the people in charge of this "memorial" decided to choose that particular icon to represent the "victims."
Funny they ignored the fact that the protesters in Tiananmen Square were not trying to topple the Communist state and install a western democracy, when you actually look into it you find they were communists pushing for freedom of speech, freedom of press, and more power to the workers, in short THEY WERE PUSHING FOR A TRUE COMMUNTIST STATE. They were waving red flags and wearing red headbands, shouting revolutanary slogans, and when the suvivers left the square they held hands and were singing The International. In fact it could actually be argued that it was the first true communist revolution of our time. [/b]
Ditto for the Czechs who rose up against the Soviets in 56.

Joby
15th November 2006, 14:15
Anyway, has anyone seen the plans for the MLK, Jr, memorial?

It looks, at least in the models, to be very well designed, beautiful, and worthy of carrying that mans name.

Klement Gottwald
15th November 2006, 21:07
Ditto for the Czechs who rose up against the Soviets in 56.

This was in Hungary, not in Czechoslovakia. Unlike in Poland, the Hungarian chauvinists were not pressing for reforms. They pressed to overthrow the socialist system. Seeing as how Tito supported the suppression of the counterrevolution, this movement did not try to establish a truly non-aligned, neutral Hungary. The Hungarian counterrevolution was specifically Russophobic and nationalistic chauvinist. They rallied around the oppressor Cardinal Mindzenty. They received the political support of Radio Free Europe. A movement that embraces the Catholic Church and national chauvinism cannot be regarded as revolutionary.

Now in refuting all the bullshit from this "victims of Communism" nonesense:


When the Bolsheviks murdered their way into power...

The seizure of power from the Winter Palace was entirely peaceful. No blood was shed. Bolsheviks had total legitimacy to seize power on behalf of the soviets.


When Lenin destroyed hundreds of thousands of Cossacks...

This is false. The Cossacks fought against the soviets and died in legitimate battle. The historian Urlanis demonstrated the military deaths to 1 million from all sides. Lenin in fact had 40,000 Terek Cossacks deported to Ukraine in order to provide land to the oppressed inidgenous peoples of the Caucusus. Everyone else who died in the Russian Civil War died due to disease and famine brought by 8 years of continous warfare and the destruction of the economy.


When the Kremlin starved more than six million in Ukraine...

This is false. Famine in Ukraine resulted exclusively due to a series of poor harvests from 1931 and 1932. Famine ended due to the good harvest of 1933. Grain collections in 1932 were lower than in previous and succeeding years by 4 million tons. The Soviet government actively assisted regions struck by famine. Between February and July 1933 at least thirty-five Politburo decisions and Sovnarkom decrees selectively authorised issue of a total of only 320,000 tons of grain for food for 30 million people. The Russian archives show that only 1.5 million died in Ukraine and under 1 million elsewhere in the USSR.


When Mao murdered tens of millions of Chinese peasants during his "land reforms"...

This is false. 800,000 landlords were executed between 1949-54 mostly by the peasants themselves who operated the courts.


When Ho Chi Minh sent 850,000 Vietnamese to their graves in "education camps"...

There is not any evidence to support this.


When Castro buried dissenters in the infamous Isle of Pines...

What the fuck? Castro himself was imprisoned there. The depiction of mass murderers who committed crimes against humanity as "dissenters" on behalf of the Batista regime is despicable.


When the student voices of freedom were silenced at Tiananmen Square...

Everyone has heard of Tiananmen Square but no one has heard of 1961 Paris, 1968 Mexico, 1976 Thailand, 1980 Republic of Korea, 1993 Moscow, etc.

VukBZ2005
16th November 2006, 03:13
Originally posted by Klement [email protected] 15, 2006 04:07 pm
This was in Hungary, not in Czechoslovakia. Unlike in Poland, the Hungarian chauvinists were not pressing for reforms. They pressed to overthrow the socialist system.

Ok.

Then explain to me why there were workers councils formed in the industrial areas of Hungary (such as Pécs, Debrecen, and Budapest) and took over the factories and managed it by themselves for?

And explain to me then why did the Parliament of Workers' Councils in Budapest drew up this -

"1. The factory belongs to the workers. (my emphasis.) The latter should pay to the state a levy calculated on the basis of the output and a portion of the profits.

2. The supreme controlling body of the factory is the Workers' Council democratically elected by the workers.

3. The Workers ' Council elects its own executive committee composed of 3-9 members, which acts as the executive body of the Workers' Council, carrying out the decisions and tasks laid down by it.

4. The director is employed "by the factory. The director and the highest employees axe to be elected 'by the Workers' Council. This election will take place after a public general meeting called "by the executive committee.

5. The director is responsible to the Workers' Council in every matter which concerns the factory.

6. The Workers' Council itself reserves all rights to:

a. approve and ratify all projects concerning the enterprise;
b. decide basic wage levels and the methods by which these are to be assessed;
c. decide on all matters concerning foreign contracts;
d. decide on the conduct of all operations involving credit.

7. In the same way, the Workers' Council resolves any conflicts concerning the hiring and firing of all workers employed in the enterprise.

8. The Workers' Council has the right to examine the balance sheets and to decide on the use to which the profits are to be put.

9. The Workers' Council handles all social questions in the enterprise."

Even though it was drawn up in the early days of the 1956 Hungarian revolution, it demonstrates its growing revolutionary nature (despite their limited conceptions of how things were going to work out). It is obvious that they were out to overthrow the bureaucracy, and establish a reformed "workers state" based on a more democratic form of Council Communism.

Another example, this statement written by the Writers Union -


"We want

1. An independent national policy based on the principles of socialism;

2. Equality in relations with the USSR and the People's Democracies;

3. A revision of economic agreements in the spirit of the equality of national rights;

4. The running of the factories by workers and specialists. (My emphasis.)

5. The right of peasants freely to decide their own fate.

6. The removal of the Rakosi clique, a post in the Government for Imre Nagy, and a resolute stand against all counter-revolutionary attempts and aspirations.

7. Complete political representation of the working class - free and secret elections to Parliament and to all autonomous organs of administration."

Again, this emphasis that the Hungarian Revolution was counterrevolutionary can be proving wrong using this text, because even though it was somewhat reformist, it can be said that this is what the majority of the population was favoring.

If it was capitalist, then it would have said so in its actions and its words.


Seeing as how Tito supported the suppression of the counterrevolution, this movement did not try to establish a truly non-aligned, neutral Hungary.

How could they? They were focused on overthrowing the bureaucracy and defending Hungary from "Soviet" intervention.

I believe that if there was enough time and the right weapons given to the Hungarian revolutionaries, then the bureaucracy would have been defeated.


The Hungarian counterrevolution was specifically Russophobic and nationalistic chauvinist. They rallied around the oppressor Cardinal Mindzenty. They received the political support of Radio Free Europe. A movement that embraces the Catholic Church and national chauvinism cannot be regarded as revolutionary.

They were not, stop your lies. First of all, there were elements of the Russian army that were associating with the revolutionaries, that is why the Politiboro of the USSR sent in the troops from their far east regions to prevent such association.

Cardinal Mindzenty was probably supported by a minority of the population, the majority obviously ignored him. You just can not use the statements of a person and then say that is what the 1956 Hungarian Revolution stood for.

Also, despite the fact that the capitalists in other nations did support the revolution, because they thought that there was a slim chance that Hungary was going to go capitalist again, they did not send the weapons or help that was being requested by the Hungarian revolutionaries.

Your accusations are built to confuse people about the 1956 Hungarian Revolution.

You are just as bad as the right-wing Hungarian fascists who are, right now, trying to distort the memory of the Hungarian Revolution to the younger generations of Hungarians. It is a shame.

ComradeOm
16th November 2006, 19:20
Are they still in the process of putting this thing up? They're taking their time about it considering that I was reading about this a year ago.

YKTMX
16th November 2006, 19:27
Not that I'm in favour of Cuban Stalinism or anything, but shouldn't you guys who are be campaigning for some "Victims of Capitalism" memorial in the centre of Havana?

fashbash
16th November 2006, 19:35
If I may butt in, nobody knows what true Communism is, and this is our fault. as the left we must seek to destroy the false consciousness of the majority and educate them as to what the left is really about. Bad press from the press is only going to continue unless we educate the masses. Without using needlessy complicated terminology like 'bourgoisie' and 'proletartiat'. We need to update Marx and make it available.

Krypto-Communist
17th November 2006, 16:51
In October 1917, the Bolshevik Revolution -- the murderous Russian coup-d'etat -- birthed the deadliest mass killing force ever visited upon the human race: Communism.

Oh really? Did they just grab random people off the street and shoot them?

Ummm, no they didn't!

As far as my understanding of Soviet Russia, I've read that most of the victims in the "gulags" were ex-party bosses and members that got caught up in inter-party disputes' also known as the "Great Purge".

As for the starvations? What about all of the starvations that occured in Russia (and in the world presently) before the "communists" took over?

I also understand that mass famines and killings occured in India that would make the Ukranian famine seem dismal. Over 80 million died in India due to starvation and war-fare. Can you blame the communists for that?

(The Ukranian famine by the way was orchestrated by WEATLHY, PRO-NAZI peasant land owners that refused collectivization.) I guess they had a "hard-on" for those "damn city dwellers" in Moscow and St. Petersburg.)

Besides, what's the pretense here? That anti-communists would be pro-communist if only the communists didn't kill so many people?


In less than 100 years, Communism has claimed more than 100 million lives. Today, it continues to enslave one-fifth of the world's people.

As opposed to IMPERIALISM, CAPITALISM, RELIGION, WAGE-SLAVERY?????

I say we spam these pieces of shit!

whose with me?