Stalin - How did he get to power?

[ndppinko]

As most of us can agree, Stalin was not one of the best communist leaders. So, how did he become leader of the USSR (was the title premier? ) ?

[ComradeJunichi]

He always had position within the Bolsheviks, and he became a known member later on. And soon the General Secretary of the politburo.

I've always wondered and noone has answered my question about how Stalin got to power. What I mean by that is, were officials purged and such. If so, why?

[bolshevik1917]

There was a growing beurocracy within the party even before the death of Lenin. Stalin was not the most clever man in the world, most of the power he gained was through sheer accident.

I dont think the 'had Lenin lived' argument is relivant, as Stalin may well have bunked him off anyway at some stage. What the USSR needed most was a succesful workers revolution in Germany, of course Stalin and Baukharin in their infinate wisdom finished that off.

Joon, so many officials were murdered because they were true bolsheviks. Stalin and co wanted to rid the party of the revolutionary feeling of October. According to Hitler, one of the main reasons he attacked the USSR was because Stalin had killed all the army generals and he thought the army would be weak.

Recommended reading http://www.marxist.com/History/stalin_death1.html

[Cassius Clay]

Well Lenin originally nominated Stalin for the position of General Secretary in 1922 and the party approved that choice. Stalin also won the election in December 1927 where the united opposition got less than 6000 votes.

[Klondike]

You know I'm tired of those stupid narrow-minded Cappies who go around instantly stereotyping any Commie as a Stalinist! Hell, only maybe the really ignorent and uneducated ones are.

[redstar2000]

It seems to me that the reason Stalin "came to power" was that he enjoyed the genuine confidence of most of the membership--and especially the upper levels of the membership--of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (Bolsheviks).

He must have been doing something right.

:cool:

[the pen]

comrades

as igor has pointed out stalin was not the cleverest or
ablest man in the party. he managed to gain power due to a number of factors

1. the civil war forced lenin to take measures that were supposed to be tempoary. these measures stifled democracy with the soviets and party but i must repeat that the measures were to be tempoary.

2. the civil war took a horrible toll on the flower of the russian working class. the most politically concious workers were killed by the whites.

3. stalin was indeed nominated by lenin but he soon realised his miskate and in his last testnament he called for the expulsion of stalin from his post and the election of a man "far more able" (trotsky)

4. after lenins death the bolshevick central committe at the bidding of stalin tried to suppress the testament. trotsky mistakenly agreed to this in order to have the opportunity to put foward his economic policy

5. trotsky realised that stalin had become far too powerful. at this time trots was extremely popular in the army and could have carried out a military coup. however trots beliving in the soviets and workers democracy preferred to appeal to the workers

6. however as i said the workers were demoralised and tired after the civil war and did not have the energy to throw out the beurocracy.

ps. i didnt include the defeat of the revoultions in europe as comrade igor has already dealt with them

[Cassius Clay]

''3. stalin was indeed nominated by lenin but he soon realised his miskate and in his last testnament he called for the expulsion of stalin from his post and the election of a man "far more able" (trotsky)''

Erm there was no 'testament' and neither did he call 'for the expulsion of Stalin' and no where does he suggest Trotsky to take over. What it is is a series of dictated notes in which Lenin calls Stalin 'Rude' and wonders whether he is up to the job of General Secretary, this was written at a time when Lenin was angry with Stalin over something personal nothing to do with politics. That's it, nothing else. And anyway what do you think the Soviet Union was? A monarchy? It wasn't up to Lenin by himself to decide who got what job or what have you, it was up to the party and the party chose Stalin and throughourly rejected Trotsky.


''4. after lenins death the bolshevick central committe at the bidding of stalin tried to suppress the testament. trotsky mistakenly agreed to this in order to have the opportunity to put foward his economic policy''

No they didn't. Zinoviev read out the 'testament' at a party congress (although just the bit critical of Stalin, wonder why that was?) in 1926 and Stalin published the whole god dam thing in a interview with Pravda in 1927, he even joked 'He was proud to be rude'. Oh and Trotsky's 'Economic policy's' involved throwing workers who turned up late into concentration camps. No wonder they didn't vote for him.


''5. trotsky realised that stalin had become far too powerful. at this time trots was extremely popular in the army and could have carried out a military coup. however trots beliving in the soviets and workers democracy preferred to appeal to the workers''

Trotsky got the sack as war commissar in 1920 because he was practically despised by the army and kept on disagreeing with the Central Committe and was replaced by Marshall Frunze. Hardly 'Popular'. Anyway when Trotsky attempted to put his 'Democracy' into practice Lenin correctly described it as 'Bonapartism' he was right.

''6. however as i said the workers were demoralised and tired after the civil war and did not have the energy to throw out the beurocracy.''

'Tired' LOL. Civil war ended at the latest 1920, Lenin died in 1924 and Trotsky lost the election in 1927. Then again Trots have never made sense.

[Comrade Otaku]

Seems u got a few facts wrong there Cassius. You see, Lenin did call for the explusion of Stalin in his testament

"Comrade Stalin having become General Secretary, has immeasurable power concentrated in his hands, and I am not sure that he always knows how to use that power with sufficient caution. Comrade Trotsky, on the other hand...Is distinguished not only by his outstanding ability. He is personally perhaps the most capable man in the present CC"

and

"Stalin is too rude, and this fault...becomes unacceptable in the office of General Secretary. Therefore I propose to the comrades that a way be found to remove Stalin from that post and replace him with someone else who differs from Stalin in all respects, someone more patient, more loyal, more polite, more considerate"

2) Trotsky never wanted to put people in concentration camps, he did have strict discipline in the Red Army, true, but nothing like that. He was not of a cruel and dictatorial nature like Stalin (Gulags=Prison Camps=Concentration Camps) If Trotsky had any dictatorial aims, he would have used his substantial power base to take over, which he didn't.
3) Trotsky was not fired from his job as War Commisar, he quit. But his resignation was not accepted. There was no greater mind in the government than Trotsky. Trotsky was also an excellent orator, one who could probably have matched Lenin in his Marxist philosophy. The weakest link theory was Trotsky, Trotsky convinced Lenin to wait till October. Trotsky led the October revolution. What did Stalin do? Killed millions? Tortured millions? Forced collectivisation and industrialisation. He was a dictator. Look at the facts, he killed more men than Hitler. He tried to create the perfect worker at Magnitogorsk. We have to wonder, how much New Soviet Man and Aryan Man would have had in common. Would Trotsky have made the Nazi-Soviet Pact with Hitler? I doubt it very much. Trotsky was a man of his beliefs. Stalin was a power hungry man of greed

[Cassius Clay]

Seems u got a few facts wrong there Cassius. You see, Lenin did call for the explusion of Stalin in his testament

"Comrade Stalin having become General Secretary, has immeasurable power concentrated in his hands, and I am not sure that he always knows how to use that power with sufficient caution. Comrade Trotsky, on the other hand...Is distinguished not only by his outstanding ability. He is personally perhaps the most capable man in the present CC"


and

"Stalin is too rude, and this fault...becomes unacceptable in the office of General Secretary. Therefore I propose to the comrades that a way be found to remove Stalin from that post and replace him with someone else who differs from Stalin in all respects, someone more patient, more loyal, more polite, more considerate"

Sorry I misunderstood what the orginall poster said and thought he meant Lenin wanted Stalin thrown out of the party completely. Which is ofcourse rubbish. Anyway what does the above show? That Lenin thinks Stalin is 'Rude' and wonders whether he is up to the job of General Secretary of the party. Big deal, this was written over something entirely personal which had nothing do to with politics. BTW no where does he suggest anyone to actually replace Stalin as General Secretary.


''2) Trotsky never wanted to put people in concentration camps,''

Yes he did. Just ask the man himself.

''the working class...must be thrown here and there, appointed, commanded just like soldiers. Deserters from labour ought to be formed into punitive battalions or put into concentration camps''


''he did have strict discipline in the Red Army, true, but nothing like that. He was not of a cruel and dictatorial nature like Stalin (Gulags=Prison Camps=Concentration Camps) If Trotsky had any dictatorial aims, he would have used his substantial power base to take over, which he didn't.''


''In December 1919, Trotsky proposed the `militarization of economic life' and wanted to mobilize the workers using methods he had applied for leading the army. With this line, the railroad workers were mobilized under military discipline. A wave of protests passed through the union movement. Lenin declared that Trotsky committed errors that endangered the dictatorship of the proletariat: by his bureaucratic harassment of the unions, he risked separating the Party from the masses.

.

V. I. Lenin, The Trade Unions, the Present Situation, and Trotsky's Mistakes (30 December 1920). Collected Works (Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1960--1970), vol. 32, pp. 19--42.


Trotsky's outrageous individualism, his open disdain for Bolshevik cadres, his authoritarian style of leadership and his taste for military discipline frightened many Party cadres. They thought that Trotsky could well play the rôle of a Napoléon Bonaparte, effecting a coup d'état and setting up a counter-revolutionary authoritarian régime.''

Find me a similar quote from Stalin or pacific example of Stalin even attempting to put anything like the above in practice while in power.


''3) Trotsky was not fired from his job as War Commisar, he quit. But his resignation was not accepted.

True enough, sorry it was my mistake. Although I may still be right I can't come up with a viable source to support what I said at the moment. Here's what happened.

''Denikin is approaching Orel. Trotsky is summoned from the Southern Front to attend a meeting of the Central Committee. The Central Committee regards the situation as alarming and decides to send new military leaders to the Southern Front and to withdraw Trotsky. The new military leaders demand 'no Intervention' by Trotsky in the affairs of the Southern Front. Operations on the Southern Front, right up to the capture of Rostov-on-Don and Odessa by our troops, proceed without Trotsky.''


''There was no greater mind in the government than Trotsky. Trotsky was also an excellent orator, one who could probably have matched Lenin in his Marxist philosophy.''

Wow talk about a cult. Hitler was also a brilliant 'orator' does that make him a nice guy?

''The weakest link theory was Trotsky,''

Really could you back this up please? If so it contradicts all of his later theory's, remember according to Trotsky only those workers 'advanced' enough can have a revolution not a bunch of 'Barbourous' (his words not mine) peasants.

''Trotsky convinced Lenin to wait till October. Trotsky led the October revolution.''

No he didn't. Oh wait Trotsky and everybody's school text books said he did, it must be true.


''What did Stalin do? Killed millions? Tortured millions?''

LOL, back this up please.

''Forced collectivisation and industrialisation. He was a dictator.''

Collectivastion was not forced, especially never from above. Industrialisation, well let's have Russia remain in the 15th Century that will defeat Hitler. As for a 'Dictator' he was nothing of the sought.


''Look at the facts, he killed more men than Hitler.''

Why because Robert Conquest said so? How many then 20, 40, 60 or 100 million? Well let's look at the facts, 799,445 people died in the Soviet Prison system from the early 30's right up till 1953. The vast majority of them criminalls, alot of them during the war and alot NOT because of execution.

''He tried to create the perfect worker at Magnitogorsk. We have to wonder, how much New Soviet Man and Aryan Man would have had in common.''

I wasn't aware such a thing (the perfect worker) existed, let alone Stalin tried to create them. How is it Stalin's fault that one worker would want to work extra hard and produce more than usual.

''Would Trotsky have made the Nazi-Soviet Pact with Hitler?''

Judging from his actions in real life he would of just let Hitler and the Nazis take the Ukraine.

''I doubt it very much. Trotsky was a man of his beliefs. Stalin was a power hungry man of greed.''

Matter of opinion I suppose but the facts speak against this.

[Comrade Otaku]

There was no Trotsky cult, his picture wasn't on every single building, people didn't have to applaud anytime he appeared. Stalin was a dictator, how can you refute that? The show trials, the purges...He was a bureaucrat, nothing more, nothing less. He usurped power. The party became the commitee, and the commitee became one man, and that mans word dictated the events of Russian history

[komsomol]

I posted this on Joon's board.

http://www.socialistfront.org/forum/index....iew=getlastpost (http://www.socialistfront.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=13&t=6&view=getlastpost)

[Cassius Clay]

Quote: from Comrade Otaku on 6:00 pm on April 11, 2003
There was no Trotsky cult, his picture wasn't on every single building, people didn't have to applaud anytime he appeared. Stalin was a dictator, how can you refute that? The show trials, the purges...He was a bureaucrat, nothing more, nothing less. He usurped power. The party became the commitee, and the commitee became one man, and that mans word dictated the events of Russian history

I was reffering to the fact that you said 'Trotsky was the greatest thinker' or something like that. Stalin fought against the so called 'Cult of personality' and also against beuracracy, he declared 'The Communist Beuracrate to be the most dangerous of all'. The 'Show' trials were a way of dealing with people who broke the law as simple as that.

I really don't get this place. Trotsky a man who wants to use Pol Pot methods is lauded as a hero while Stalin who helped build a Socialist society is accussed of being the Antichrist.

[redstar2000]

Cassius, I would not presume to instruct you on your always able defense of Stalin's historical record.

Nevertheless, you must "watch" your rhetoric. Leon Trotsky was not an advocate of "Pol Pot methods"...that is verbal (pardon the expression) overkill.

:cool:

[Cassius Clay]

Well what else would you call 'Military Discipline' in factories?

To quote Zinoviev in his trial 'Trotskyism leads to Fascism'. The whole theory is ultra-leftist with rascism, elitiism, militarism and Imperialism to add. Some say we should unite and not concentrate on the 'personalities' like your dear self no doubt. But history has shown the mistakes of uniting with Trotskyites, remember Spain and China.

[Invader Zim]

Back to the inital question.

Stalin was a popular man in the party, got kicked out of Russia twice by the Tsar. He was a prominant man in the party, to the point that he became second only to Lenin. At the same time Trotsky was also climbing the ladder. When Lenin died Stalin used cheap and dirty tricks to remove any opposition. Working with one of his enemys to remove another enemy. Eventually only he and Trotsky were left. To gain support for his case Stalin told Trotsky that the funeral would be held in a different location and time. This meant that he missed the funeral. Stalin apperared to be the chief morner. Stalin also had many pictures prodused of him and Lenin. (Many fake) Due to these sorts of things Stalin got much support from the party and became premier. Even though Lenin actualy wanted Trotsky to be premier.

Stalin was a sneeky bastard wasnt he...?

[thursday night]

I won’t get too involved other than to say I take the ‘Stalin side’ on this subject. However, I will say that Trotskyism is as ultra-leftist at it gets. It is ideologically purist, totally uncompromising and as Lenin said of the ultra-left “an infinite disorder.” Yes, Pol-Pot was an ultra-leftist and it is interesting to note that the Marxist-Leninists in Vietnam were the ones to remove him from power.

[Cassius Clay]

Thursday, it is not the 'Stalin side' but the side of Marxist-Leninism that won, how many votes did the opposition get? Less than 6000. Ofcourse they won't accept this, and will cry foul play.

''As even some Western observers noted, the Trotsky Opposition was given every opportunity to air their views according to party rules. "An astonishing measure of freedom of debate, criticism and assembly was granted to the Trotskyist oppositionists by the Soviet government… The social and economic policies of the Stalin administration were subjected to continuous criticism… No attempt was made to suppress Trotsky's agitation until it had openly exposed itself as, in fact, anti-Soviet and connected with other anti-Soviet forces." (Great Conspiracy, p. 204)''

Seems the only 'Sneeky bastards' were Trotsky and his few supporters.

[redstar2000]

Cassius, as I understand it, Pol Pot's vision of "communism" involved the more or less deliberate murder of everyone in Cambodia who wasn't a peasant.

I don't see that Pol Pot's ideas have anything in common with Trotsky or Trotskyists.

I will say no more on this subject as I see it is degenerating into demonology again...as nearly all discussions of "Stalin vs. Trotsky" seem to do.

Too bad.

:cool:

[Cassius Clay]

Redstar2000.

When I say 'Pol-Pot methods' I'm reffering to Trotsky's call for 'Military Discipline' in factories and wanting to throw workers into camps for simply turning up late. What I'm saying is that if Trotsky had ever gained power it would be about as pleasent as life under Pol Pot was for your average Cambodian.

Anyway on another note got any advise on women?

[Pete]

no!! My beautiful post that basically said 'fuck off' to both sides and 'please stop arguing and try to do something constructive' and 'i dont believe either man was completely right' was lost in the hell that is che-lives server!!

[redstar2000]

#Moderation Mode

As a new moderator, I'm still learning my job. Belatedly, I'm moving this topic to History where it should have been all along.

:cool:

Moved here (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=26&topic=314)

[Kapitan Andrey]

lenin liked him for his evil methods of bandit war!!!
I heate him for all, that he done!!!