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Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg
13th November 2006, 20:18
i was wondering what you think of Mao. i have not seen many threads on him, so what are your opinions of the man?

Bolshevist
13th November 2006, 20:23
I think he was a good strategist and military leader, obviously he was very capable in that. His period as statesman and leader was not so great though..

This is a good read on China from a Trotskyist perspective, check it out:

http://www.marxist.com/china-really-happening140104.htm

Vargha Poralli
14th November 2006, 06:40
I think Mao could have been a great leader without any negatives if he had not done somethings he did during the Great Leap Forward and Cultural revolution his early contribution was nevertheless much important to all revolutionaries. Especially his theories on protracted war and mobilization of peasant masses. I think we should filter out Mao and take all that is good and leave out all which are bad.

Bolshevist : That link is much helpful and informative . Thanks :)

Janus
15th November 2006, 02:37
When examining Mao; one must separate his ideas from his actual actions as the two were generally contradictory. He definitely improved the lives of many Chinese and helped to establish a socialist state but due to the structure of his movement and his government, he could not get China to take the next step in socialism. Furthermore, his attempts of shape his nation through his various methods as well as his personality cult proved quite devastating to China for a short period. Yet despite his mistakes, the Chinese particularly the older generation still admire and respect him due to a certain nostalgia for the past.

OneBrickOneVoice
15th November 2006, 02:48
Perhaps the greatest socialist leader after Lenin. Mao vastly improved the living standards of the Chinese people in every field from sanitation to education and equality to industrialization.

He also contributed to the socialist ideology with ideas like the cultural revolution and the idea that class struggle continues throughout socialism.

Mao's "cult of personality" is no different than that of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Reagan to capitalists.

Comrade Marcel
15th November 2006, 02:52
Read Mao.

Janus
15th November 2006, 03:20
Mao's "cult of personality" is no different than that of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Reagan to capitalists.
:lol: His personality cult went much further than simply respect but rather to the levels of deification. Everyone was supposed to have a copy of his book, people were required to bow to his picture at many events, and any criticism of Mao was harshly dealt with. Of course, some of this is not Mao's fault but it shows that how far his personality cult went that people used his status in order to committ such deeds.

Outward Rebel
15th November 2006, 17:55
Didn't Mao like murder millions and millions of people? Then he killed people just simply for disagreeing with him?? Well, that's what I read anyway......

OneBrickOneVoice
15th November 2006, 22:08
Didn't Mao like murder millions and millions of people? Then he killed people just simply for disagreeing with him?? Well, that's what I read anyway......

That is mostly lies. Most of the negative information released about the GLF and Cultural Revolution came during a anti-maoist campaign by Deng. The reality is that most of the deaths were caused by droughts and floods and bad weather which have been very common in Chinese history and still kill thousands today. Other deaths were Japanese Imperialists convicted in a people's court. He did not kill people "who simply disagreed with him". The entire Cultural Revolution was critiscism of the old ways and of the way the party was handling things.

Pirate Utopian
15th November 2006, 22:27
im kinda split on Mao, he was great writer and Maoism as a theory is not too bad, but i dont know what to believe about the purges and shit

OneBrickOneVoice
15th November 2006, 22:56
Originally posted by Big [email protected] 15, 2006 10:27 pm
im kinda split on Mao, he was great writer and Maoism as a theory is not too bad, but i dont know what to believe about the purges and shit
"A revolution is not a dinner party"

-- Mao Zedong

Mao's actions were necessary to protect the revolution from the reactionaries and fascists who wished to take back the state. Usually all the shit you here is false and exagerated. Sure there was violence, but that was condemned by Mao. Alot of things that went on were by opportunists and the point of the Cultural Revolution was to get rid of them. In the end it failed and the capitalists gained control anyway, but I think China would've fell far sooner had the Cultural Revolution not happened.

ZACKist
16th November 2006, 03:39
Mao was indeed only human, just like all the rest of us, he made mistakes/had shortcomings/and errors. However, it would be ridiculous to state that he did more harm than good. If you look at the facts of the country of China and the way that Mao and the Communist Party under his guidance worked to improve society and create socialism, you'll notice he did much good.

Life-expectancy about doubled, literacy rate shot through the roof, patriarchal ideas were smashed and fought against, traditional feudal ideas were put to question, medical care to the peasantry with barefoot doctors, etc.

Mao did much to further the ideas of communist theory.

Janus
16th November 2006, 22:28
Didn't Mao like murder millions and millions of people?
No, he didn't "murder" them but his policies did result in the deaths of many people during the Great Leap and the Cultural Revolution.


Then he killed people just simply for disagreeing with him??
Yes, there were certain people deemed counter-revolutionaries who were jailed or killed but not because they personally disagreed with him.


patriarchal ideas were smashed and fought against, traditional feudal ideas were put to question
Traditional ideas were challenged yet they were never actually smashed. In fact, there is a certain amount of Confucianist thought in Mao's theories.


Sure there was violence, but that was condemned by Mao.
Mao sponsored the revolution; he never flinched at violence.


Mao's actions were necessary to protect the revolution from the reactionaries and fascists who wished to take back the state.
The Cultural Revolution solidified China's direction. Mao had good intentions yet the Cultural Revolution was mainly dominated by those who acted in his name. The Cultural Revolution was defined by the great damage it caused and the little true change it effected.

Enragé
16th November 2006, 22:32
mao = authoritarian bastard

so there.

we dont need leaders
so fuck 'em

More Fire for the People
16th November 2006, 22:40
I admittedly do not know as much about China as I should but from I've gathered I consider Mao to have salvaged Marxism from the decline of the Chinese workers’ movement and thus allowed the workers’ movement to re-emerge later [The Cultural Revolution]. However, I would say most of this is by accident .

Janus
16th November 2006, 22:47
and thus allowed the workers’ movement to re-emerge later [The Cultural Revolution
There really was no set defined worker's movement during the Cultural Revolution, in fact the Cultural Revolution was marked by a lot of anti-worker actions such as strike breaking and the shutting down of trade unions. Mao himself never really liked actual worker's movements and most strikes were stopped during the Cultural Revolution and the attempts to give worker's true power was also stopped by him.

chimx
16th November 2006, 22:55
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 10:08 pm

Didn't Mao like murder millions and millions of people? Then he killed people just simply for disagreeing with him?? Well, that's what I read anyway......

That is mostly lies. Most of the negative information released about the GLF and Cultural Revolution came during a anti-maoist campaign by Deng. The reality is that most of the deaths were caused by droughts and floods and bad weather which have been very common in Chinese history and still kill thousands today. Other deaths were Japanese Imperialists convicted in a people's court. He did not kill people "who simply disagreed with him". The entire Cultural Revolution was critiscism of the old ways and of the way the party was handling things.
mao supported the let a hundred flowers bloom campaign and then following it, arrested artists, poets, and intellectuals who participated in it, but not to his liking.

he also put forth irresponsible policies which resulted in millions dying, as janus already said.

Janus
16th November 2006, 23:48
mao supported the let a hundred flowers bloom campaign and then following it, arrested artists, poets, and intellectuals who participated in it, but not to his liking.
Another incident in which Mao's rhetoric and theories conflicted with his actions much like the Cultural Revolution.


he also put forth irresponsible policies which resulted in millions dying, as janus already said.
A certain amount of the damage was a cause of weather conditions referred to as the Three Years of Natural Disasters but this only worsened what bad planning and faulty bureaucracy had created. Of course, Mao was never directly responsible for these problems so the government has always been able to shy him away from blame.

Labor Shall Rule
17th November 2006, 01:01
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 02:48 am
Perhaps the greatest socialist leader after Lenin. Mao vastly improved the living standards of the Chinese people in every field from sanitation to education and equality to industrialization.

He also contributed to the socialist ideology with ideas like the cultural revolution and the idea that class struggle continues throughout socialism.

Mao's "cult of personality" is no different than that of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Reagan to capitalists.
"Mao vastly improved the living standards of the Chinese people in every field from sanitation to education and equality to industrialization."

Mao did all that? I thought it was through the collective action of the Chinese working class that we saw such amazing improvements? Republicans and Maoists hardly differentiate from eachother since they think that single icon accomplished such amazing things. Ronald Reagan? He killed communism. Mao? He magically liberated millions of peasants from feudalism.

"He also contributed to the socialist ideology with ideas like the cultural revolution and the idea that class struggle continues throughout socialism."

Mao's theoretical contributions to socialism are highly debatable. It is to my understanding that in 1923, Lenin actually called for a 'cultural revolution' in a article published in Pravda. Antonio Gramsci also voiced the necessity for a largescale transformation of society in order to create a "socialist culture". As for the idea that class struggle continues throughout socialism, it wasn't necessarily a contribution from that of Mao. Stalin, emphasizing on the fact that 'Russia had already reached socialism', justified various political purges by explaining that certain elements of the party during the course of that wonderful stage of the "lowest form of communism", would try to reinstall capitalism. Stalin even founded the idea of the "labor aristocracy", downplaying the role of the proletariat in industrialized societies and focusing on the revolutionary potential of peasants.

"Mao's "cult of personality" is no different than that of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Reagan to capitalists."

I agree.

Mao, just as other members of the CCP, was nothing but a 'revisionist' within himself. Though the Maoists like to popularly claim that a sort of paticipatory democracy existed amongst village assemblies and worker commitees, such claims are nothing but false. State administrators oversaw "production brigades", and effectively controlled all means of producing. Socialism however, isn't based on some detailed national plan, as the CCP had implemented in 1959 with the Great Leap Foward, but rather through the control of industry by worker and consumer councils that engage in dialogue and formulate production schedules in order to suit to people's needs, without the control of bureaucracts. Mao disrespected the autonomy of Tibet, Xinjiang, and other neighboring 'frontier' areas along the Chinese border. He destroyed all forms of political opposition during the course of the Cultural Revolution, hardly weakening the bureaucratic apparatus as he only tightened his personal control over all of society, and he even called out troops into the urban centers in order to disperse his very own Red Gaurd. What's up with that? He sent thousands of intellectuals to concentration camps in order to "learn from the peasants".

AlwaysAnarchy
19th November 2006, 18:45
Originally posted by chimx+November 16, 2006 10:55 pm--> (chimx @ November 16, 2006 10:55 pm)
[email protected] 15, 2006 10:08 pm

Didn't Mao like murder millions and millions of people? Then he killed people just simply for disagreeing with him?? Well, that's what I read anyway......

That is mostly lies. Most of the negative information released about the GLF and Cultural Revolution came during a anti-maoist campaign by Deng. The reality is that most of the deaths were caused by droughts and floods and bad weather which have been very common in Chinese history and still kill thousands today. Other deaths were Japanese Imperialists convicted in a people's court. He did not kill people "who simply disagreed with him". The entire Cultural Revolution was critiscism of the old ways and of the way the party was handling things.
mao supported the let a hundred flowers bloom campaign and then following it, arrested artists, poets, and intellectuals who participated in it, but not to his liking.

he also put forth irresponsible policies which resulted in millions dying, as janus already said. [/b]
I agree 100% with what Chimx :wub: said.

Mao was a mass murderer and while some of what he did may have been exaggerated by the boureois there is no doubt that his policies did result in millions dying, including repressing artists, writers and intellectuals which dared to question him. This cannot be support by any left wing person that support human rights and believes in freedom.

Xiao Banfa
20th November 2006, 00:36
We must examine Mao critically. He was an excellent guerilla strategist.
His efforts against imperialism (along with other important cadre) contributed massively to the progressive cause.

I really think he started to lose his mind with his agricultural schemes and industrialisation schemes.
Some of it was just plain batty. Like planting crops closer together which makes them rot.

If he had allowed consumer and workers councils more say and a leading role, catastrophes would have been averted.

However, we mustn't throw Mao out completely and we mustn't take on board every bit of defamatory crap.

Comrade_Scott
20th November 2006, 00:53
Mao like most socialist leaders had brilliant ideas on paper but in practice however it was not so good (for the most part)

OneBrickOneVoice
20th November 2006, 02:25
Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2006 01:01 am

I agree.

Mao, just as other members of the CCP, was nothing but a 'revisionist' within himself. Though the Maoists like to popularly claim that a sort of paticipatory democracy existed amongst village assemblies and worker commitees, such claims are nothing but false. State administrators oversaw "production brigades", and effectively controlled all means of producing. Socialism however, isn't based on some detailed national plan, as the CCP had implemented in 1959 with the Great Leap Foward, but rather through the control of industry by worker and consumer councils that engage in dialogue and formulate production schedules in order to suit to people's needs, without the control of bureaucracts. Mao disrespected the autonomy of Tibet, Xinjiang, and other neighboring 'frontier' areas along the Chinese border. He destroyed all forms of political opposition during the course of the Cultural Revolution, hardly weakening the bureaucratic apparatus as he only tightened his personal control over all of society, and he even called out troops into the urban centers in order to disperse his very own Red Gaurd. What's up with that? He sent thousands of intellectuals to concentration camps in order to "learn from the peasants".

Mao did all that? I thought it was through the collective action of the Chinese working class that we saw such amazing improvements? Republicans and Maoists hardly differentiate from eachother since they think that single icon accomplished such amazing things. Ronald Reagan? He killed communism. Mao? He magically liberated millions of peasants from feudalism.


you know what I mean. Please, I was speaking in terms of his period in power.


Mao's theoretical contributions to socialism are highly debatable. It is to my understanding that in 1923, Lenin actually called for a 'cultural revolution' in a article published in Pravda. Antonio Gramsci also voiced the necessity for a largescale transformation of society in order to create a "socialist culture". As for the idea that class struggle continues throughout socialism, it wasn't necessarily a contribution from that of Mao. Stalin, emphasizing on the fact that 'Russia had already reached socialism', justified various political purges by explaining that certain elements of the party during the course of that wonderful stage of the "lowest form of communism", would try to reinstall capitalism. Stalin even founded the idea of the "labor aristocracy", downplaying the role of the proletariat in industrialized societies and focusing on the revolutionary potential of peasants.

hmmm... well that would be interesting to see. Do you have a link? Mao actually put the CR into practice and the idea of "bombarding the headquarters"


I agree.

Mao, just as other members of the CCP, was nothing but a 'revisionist' within himself. Though the Maoists like to popularly claim that a sort of paticipatory democracy existed amongst village assemblies and worker commitees, such claims are nothing but false. State administrators oversaw "production brigades", and effectively controlled all means of producing. Socialism however, isn't based on some detailed national plan, as the CCP had implemented in 1959 with the Great Leap Foward, but rather through the control of industry by worker and consumer councils that engage in dialogue and formulate production schedules in order to suit to people's needs, without the control of bureaucracts. Mao disrespected the autonomy of Tibet, Xinjiang, and other neighboring 'frontier' areas along the Chinese border. He destroyed all forms of political opposition during the course of the Cultural Revolution, hardly weakening the bureaucratic apparatus as he only tightened his personal control over all of society, and he even called out troops into the urban centers in order to disperse his very own Red Gaurd. What's up with that? He sent thousands of intellectuals to concentration camps in order to "learn from the peasants".

Suprisingly,

Mao did make quite a few mistakes and no Maoist denies that. Frankly, I do not know much about the political system of China. What I do know is that cultural revolutionary China was the only government in history to encourage criticism of the ruling party. The Cultural Revolution wasn't about destroying the opposition, it was more about establishing a socialist democracy in the future for the working class and avoiding the beauraucratic revisionism of the USSR. China was faced with either capitalism or a massive revolution to rid China of remaining capitalist elements. Mao took the second road and in the end, it didn't pay off, but it was in truth the only option. Could you provide a source for the PLA smashing the Red Guards? Thanks. As for Tibet, it was a feudalism. MIM wrote an article on it that can probably do more justice than me as I know liitle about it. Concentration Camps are an exaggeration. Most of those people weren't ordinary bourgious. They were Jishists and Japanese Imperialists left over from before the revolution fighting to restore capitalism and fascism.

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/tibet.html

OneBrickOneVoice
20th November 2006, 02:27
I really think he started to lose his mind with his agricultural schemes and industrialisation schemes.
Some of it was just plain batty. Like planting crops closer together which makes them rot.

Must have been pretty batty because it was under Mao that China for the first time ever in 1970 was able to feed its entire population.

OneBrickOneVoice
20th November 2006, 02:35
Mao was a mass murderer and while some of what he did may have been exaggerated by the boureois there is no doubt that his policies did result in millions dying, including repressing artists, writers and intellectuals which dared to question him. This cannot be support by any left wing person that support human rights and believes in freedom

We will never know who or how many died because of the Revolution. What we do know is that

1) China has a common history of floods, droughts, and famines that cannot be avoided. Even today droughts, floods, typhoons and other natural disasters kill thousands of people and bring disaster to local farmers.

2) Every estimate on the casualties have come from bourgieous western historians, during the cold war, and based on facts released by a staunch anti-maoist, pro-capitalist regime.

3) Everyone ignores the massive improvements Mao made. Barefoot doctors, universal education and healthcare, acheiving basic living standards for population, industrializing the country under the first 5 year plan, doubling literacy and life expectancy, liberating woman!, ending arranged marriage, ending woman slavery to man, the list foes on. Liberals always forget the reason why Mao is so popular today in China by both young and old peasants and proletariat alike.

OneBrickOneVoice
20th November 2006, 02:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2006 10:32 pm
mao = authoritarian bastard

so there.

we dont need leaders
so fuck 'em
Revolution = inherently Authoritarian

so there.

Deal with it. That is why a Anarchist revolution has never succeeded.

Janus
20th November 2006, 03:04
I really think he started to lose his mind with his agricultural schemes and industrialisation schemes.
Some of it was just plain batty. Like planting crops closer together which makes them rot.
Those schemes weren't Mao's but the theories of agriculturists which have now been debunked. However, Mao was responsible for the failed policies of the backyard furnaces,etc. as well as for doing little about the resulting famine.

Vargha Poralli
20th November 2006, 03:41
This Post shows the immaturity of most of Anarchists and some Maoists. Instead of the usual "Mao is a Murderer" and "Mao is Great" type of argument why can't we do some arguments which can be useful for a new beginner to learn ?

OneBrickOneVoice
20th November 2006, 04:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2006 03:04 am

I really think he started to lose his mind with his agricultural schemes and industrialisation schemes.
Some of it was just plain batty. Like planting crops closer together which makes them rot.
Those schemes weren't Mao's but the theories of agriculturists which have now been debunked. However, Mao was responsible for the failed policies of the backyard furnaces,etc. as well as for doing little about the resulting famine.
What exactly can you do during a natural disaster. 1959, 61, 62 were simply bad years. The deaths had little to do with Mao. Natural disasters happened before and continue to happen. In fact, the rationing among the communes probably saved millions more than a free market style economy like Jishi's would've. 1000s die from the floods today yearly, and China has the means of evacuating and providing relief for its' people. Something that it had a hard time doing during the Mao period when it was trying to industrialize.

Flooding in Central China (2002) (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/natural_hazards_v2.php3?img_id=4712)
Chinese Storm/Flood (2006) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5185314.stm)
Chinese Flood (2005) (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-06-05-china-floods_x.htm)
"fighting China's floods" (October 2005) (http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/flood/131812.htm)
Devastating Flood in China(1996) (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9608/07/china.floods/)
Devastating Flood (2004) (http://www.tiscali.co.uk/news/newswire.php/news/reuters/2004/09/08/world/floodskill161inchina.html)
wikipedia: Natural Disasters in China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_disasters_in_China)

Alejandro C
20th November 2006, 05:15
What exactly can you do during a natural disaster?
During the great famine, one of the most massive disasters in the history of the word, which is probably responsible for more deaths that any other event in human history; Mao was exporting millions of tons of food around the world in an effort to boost China's image and also as means of trade for weapons and machines. Mao could have put the development on hold for a couple of years to save millions of his own people.
I see Mao as a brilliant, cruel, and heartless leader. He would stop at nothing to keep power, and he did it very cleverly but at great cost to the Chinese people.
Chinese people that I know, young and old, detest Mao; and remember his rule as a time of tragedy, sadness, repression, and death. His disregard for human life made him a very effective keeper of power, and for this I also detest him. Mao used people for his own gain, for the parties gain, and for what he thought was China's gain.
I agree with Janus that Mao's cult of personality was far beyond anything Washington or Jefferson could ever have imagined. People thought he was a god and they worshiped him. That has never happed in America. Every home had his picture in it. Every person did what he told them to do, or was thrown in prison or killed. They thought he never went to the bathroom. They thought we was always right. They would kill at his command, report their fathers and mothers at this command, destroy their own property at his command, this type of devotion has never been seen in America.
My general view is that there were some good things that were done in China during Mao's reign, but these good things would have happened with other leaders at the helm. The horrible things, however, were largely due to Mao being Mao. Imagine if Zhou En-Lai had been the leader. Millions of lives most probably would have been saved, and all of the good things most probably would have still happened.

RedStarOverChina
20th November 2006, 05:25
Originally posted by Alejandro [email protected] 20, 2006 12:15 am
Chinese people that I know, young and old, detest Mao; and remember his rule as a time of tragedy, sadness, repression, and death.
Reactionary ones, yes.

Ze
20th November 2006, 13:55
I'd like to quickly and simply say that Mao, despite his mistakes regarding the Great Leap Forward, pushed China into awakening the sleeping economy that is China. We are just starting to feel the effects of Mao on a global scale. Mao should be studied and to an extent, admired.

Alejandro C
20th November 2006, 15:01
Originally posted by RedStarOverChina+November 19, 2006 11:25 pm--> (RedStarOverChina @ November 19, 2006 11:25 pm)
Alejandro [email protected] 20, 2006 12:15 am
Chinese people that I know, young and old, detest Mao; and remember his rule as a time of tragedy, sadness, repression, and death.
Reactionary ones, yes. [/b]
I guess the part of the brain that holds their memories must be reactionary, because all of their memories of that time are painful. I have only met one Chinese person who liked Mao, and she knew nothing about him. She only liked him because she also was born in Hunan. But when I talk to older Chinese people about Mao, they either tell me they don't like politics and won't talk about it, or they tell me horrible stories about the terror they felt from the state, the ways it ruined people around them, and their hatred for Mao. One I was talking to recently told me that he wishes Jiang Jieshi (Chiang Kai-Shek) would have won the war. I asked him if he always thought that and he told me that he only thought that after he saw what Mao's rule was doing to the people in his town. This was a mainlander who is a gentle, calm, quiet, and very level headed man.
And about Mao's great economic miracle. China's economic awakening happed under Deng, only after his de-Maoification period. Under Mao China's economy suffered, though not as much as the people did.
Mao took the great socialist ideas, even his ideas were great, and put them into practice in cruel and stupid ways. He misused socialism to suppress opposition to him and to whip up his own personality cult. The thing that bothers me most is that he had such a great opportunity. He had the largest country on earth completely under his control, he clearly was aware of good socialist theory, but he put it into practiced largely in negative ways. What a waste of what could've been a very great socialist nation-state. He had it; he had devoted people who were true believers, he had the largest population eating out of his hand, he had what we all hope for, and he misused his power and turned what could have been a great revolution into a great revulsion.
There were a lot of great thinkers around him, but one by one they fell into disgrace or were forced to forgo their ideas for his, and he remained in power. That is a great human and socialist tragedy.

RedStarOverChina
21st November 2006, 02:16
I guess the part of the brain that holds their memories must be reactionary, because all of their memories of that time are painful.

You wanna know about pain? Learn about pre-1949 China.

Before 1949 my grandmother was a child labourer---one of the better offs comparing to peasants in the countryside. Right before 1949 her entire family was wiped out with the exception of herself. Her parents, her 5 sibblings (including a younger brother) all died of some sort of an infectious disease because they can't afford medical treatment. She was a teen and barely survived until 1949.

When the CCP tookover she was educated and made into an doctor---Now she's in her 70s and still quite healthy.

What a difference 1949 made!

But if the Maoist China were to be considered painful---and it definately WAS painful, then the pre-CCP China was Hell on Earth.

Few have attempted to calculate the Chinese deaths during the brutal rule of Chiang Kai-shek---and there is no way of trully understanding the scale of suffering that existed as the material condition of the country.

When the Chinese nationalists attempted to halt Japanese advances by blowing up a dam in southern China, more than two million souls parished as the result of the flood that followed. Two million people died in a single incident when China's population was only around 400 million---and it was hardly worth noticing because people were dying on such a monumental scale elsewhere in China as well.

Of course, we know that the Chinese population almost doubled within a generation as the result of better food supply and better health care introduced by the CCP.

OneBrickOneVoice
21st November 2006, 02:49
Originally posted by Alejandro [email protected] 20, 2006 05:15 am


What exactly can you do during a natural disaster?
During the great famine, one of the most massive disasters in the history of the word, which is probably responsible for more deaths that any other event in human history; Mao was exporting millions of tons of food around the world in an effort to boost China's image and also as means of trade for weapons and machines. Mao could have put the development on hold for a couple of years to save millions of his own people.


Source for this claim? Mao did save millions of people. Life expectancy more than doubled under Mao! Do you know how many millions of people now lived there lives!? How many lives that action in itself saved?? Infant mortality in Shangai was lower than in New York City under Mao. For the first time in history, China solved the problem of aqeudately feeding its' people. In 1970. Thats right, under Mao. literacy skyrocketed. Woman were, for the first time in history, told they were equal to men!!!


Chinese people that I know, young and old, detest Mao; and remember his rule as a time of tragedy, sadness, repression, and death.

The Cultural Revolution affected millions. The masses, however, remember Mao's rule as a time when the workers and farmers held power. That's why millions yearly, today continue to flock from the four corners of China to see his body and when it was revealed several months ago millions of people gathered.

More Fire for the People
24th November 2006, 19:38
[i]Originally posted by "LeftyHenry"+--> ("LeftyHenry")Mao did save millions of people.[/b]
Really? Mao did all of that? Historical materialism would say otherwise. History is a totality of singular class interactions — not the product of one man's 'heroism'. The Chinese Revolution created an environment were millions of workers and peasants could learn about science and technology. Through the application of advanced agricultural management, agrarian technologies, immunizations, hospitals, etc. the Chinese were able, as a whole nation , to grow.


"LeftyHenry"
The Cultural Revolution affected millions. The masses, however, remember Mao's rule as a time when the workers and farmers held power. That's why millions yearly, today continue to flock from the four corners of China to see his body and when it was revealed several months ago millions of people gathered.
Cult of personality?

OneBrickOneVoice
24th November 2006, 21:31
Originally posted by Hopscotch Anthill+November 24, 2006 07:38 pm--> (Hopscotch Anthill @ November 24, 2006 07:38 pm)
"LeftyHenry"
Mao did save millions of people.
Really? Mao did all of that? Historical materialism would say otherwise. History is a totality of singular class interactions — not the product of one man's 'heroism'. The Chinese Revolution created an environment were millions of workers and peasants could learn about science and technology. Through the application of advanced agricultural management, agrarian technologies, immunizations, hospitals, etc. the Chinese were able, as a whole nation [i.e. as a series of classes], to grow.
[/b]
No shit but I was talking in terms of the Maoist period.

Janus
24th November 2006, 21:39
Chinese people that I know, young and old, detest Mao; and remember his rule as a time of tragedy, sadness, repression, and death.
The Chinese people whom you know must be Taiwanese. Many Chinese people today particularly the older ones are actually nostalgic for the old Maoist days.


His disregard for human life made him a very effective keeper of power, and for this I also detest him. Mao used people for his own gain, for the parties gain, and for what he thought was China's gain.
I agree with Janus that Mao's cult of personality was far beyond anything Washington or Jefferson could ever have imagined. People thought he was a god and they worshiped him. That has never happed in America. Every home had his picture in it. Every person did what he told them to do, or was thrown in prison or killed. They thought he never went to the bathroom. They thought we was always right. They would kill at his command, report their fathers and mothers at this command, destroy their own property at his command, this type of devotion has never been seen in America.
You're placing Mao on a pedestal yourself if you actually think that Mao was in total control of all the forces that were overwhelming China during that period.

Leo
24th November 2006, 21:40
I would advise this text to Maoists to read this document from the Sheng-wu-lien (Hunan Provincial Revolutionary Great Alliance Committee) which was one of the most interesting oppositional documents to emerge out of the struggles unleashed by the Cultural Revolution in China.

http://www.marxists.de/china/sheng/whither.htm

Vargha Poralli
25th November 2006, 08:46
Regarding Cultural revolution i think it is more or less similar to Gramsci's theory of cultural hegemony. it is a very great thing in name would have been a great thing if Mao ,LinBiao and the gang of four wanted a true cultural revolution to happen not a tool to gain political leverage against Peng Dehuai,Li Shaoqi,Zhou En Lai and Deng Xio Ping.as i have told once we must filter mao take all his contributions that could help us and reject those were bad and be harmful to us.

Rasoolpuri
25th November 2006, 18:47
Indeed Mao was a great leader in world histroy

Alejandro C
28th November 2006, 17:01
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2006 03:39 pm

Chinese people that I know, young and old, detest Mao; and remember his rule as a time of tragedy, sadness, repression, and death.
The Chinese people whom you know must be Taiwanese. Many Chinese people today particularly the older ones are actually nostalgic for the old Maoist days.

No, they're mainlanders. And just today I was talking with a man of about 65 and he finally told me that he didn't want to talk about the time under Mao anymore, because it troubled him too much. He asked me if we could talk about China today and its future. I know its just one person, but on the whole the old people I talk to, like I said before, either won't talk about Mao, or they have horrible stories. I think he is very disliked by Chinese people. I've especially never met an old person who thought highly of Mao, though a lot of them like Zhou and Deng.

Rasoolpuri
29th November 2006, 01:28
Every person don't like Mao .Every person don't like evry person .A person don't like his enemy .Mao was enemy of captalists.No capitalis like him .So we don't decide on the statment of a person.We should study ourselves'and decide about Mao .Indeed there are several mistakes from Mao in the movement of cultural revolution but his struggle in long march was unique for the liberty of Chines people.

( R )evolution
29th November 2006, 01:42
I think Mao did many good things for socialism. But he did some bad things as well. I think it is bad to totally outcast him as a horrible leader. But then I dont want to praise him like a god.

OneBrickOneVoice
29th November 2006, 02:15
Originally posted by Alejandro C+November 28, 2006 05:01 pm--> (Alejandro C @ November 28, 2006 05:01 pm)
[email protected] 24, 2006 03:39 pm

Chinese people that I know, young and old, detest Mao; and remember his rule as a time of tragedy, sadness, repression, and death.
The Chinese people whom you know must be Taiwanese. Many Chinese people today particularly the older ones are actually nostalgic for the old Maoist days.

No, they're mainlanders. And just today I was talking with a man of about 65 and he finally told me that he didn't want to talk about the time under Mao anymore, because it troubled him too much. He asked me if we could talk about China today and its future. I know its just one person, but on the whole the old people I talk to, like I said before, either won't talk about Mao, or they have horrible stories. I think he is very disliked by Chinese people. I've especially never met an old person who thought highly of Mao, though a lot of them like Zhou and Deng. [/b]
That's quite strange as millions turned out to see his coffin when it was revealed a couple of months ago from all over the country.


I think Mao did many good things for socialism. But he did some bad things as well. I think it is bad to totally outcast him as a horrible leader. But then I dont want to praise him like a god.

Who does want him "to be praised like a god"?

RevolutionaryMarxist
29th November 2006, 03:07
I used to be a strong supporter of Mao, but after reading several very-reactionary-leaning works (The Unknown Mao by Jung Chang and "The Private Life of Chairman Mao" by his personal doctor Dr. Li Zhisui - opinons on these books would be appreciated).

His works are absolutely brilliant, but in these two works many of his actions are portrayed as counter-revolutionary and self-serving, as he had villa's built everywhere he went during the Great Leap Foward, requiring enormous manpower and food supplies. He either repressed or executed truly noble communist revolutionaries, such as Zhu De, Lin Biao, President Liu, Peng Dehuai, and etc.

He also loved to have fun with prostitute girls.

Once again, I'm not sure - in my opinion these two works seem to be well-researched and reasonable, even though the "Unknown Mao" simply lists everything about Mao as being bad and repressive against communists and noncommunists alike, so I'm unsure.

( R )evolution
29th November 2006, 03:24
Originally posted by LeftyHenry+November 29, 2006 02:15 am--> (LeftyHenry @ November 29, 2006 02:15 am)
Originally posted by Alejandro [email protected] 28, 2006 05:01 pm

[email protected] 24, 2006 03:39 pm

Chinese people that I know, young and old, detest Mao; and remember his rule as a time of tragedy, sadness, repression, and death.
The Chinese people whom you know must be Taiwanese. Many Chinese people today particularly the older ones are actually nostalgic for the old Maoist days.

No, they're mainlanders. And just today I was talking with a man of about 65 and he finally told me that he didn't want to talk about the time under Mao anymore, because it troubled him too much. He asked me if we could talk about China today and its future. I know its just one person, but on the whole the old people I talk to, like I said before, either won't talk about Mao, or they have horrible stories. I think he is very disliked by Chinese people. I've especially never met an old person who thought highly of Mao, though a lot of them like Zhou and Deng.
That's quite strange as millions turned out to see his coffin when it was revealed a couple of months ago from all over the country.


I think Mao did many good things for socialism. But he did some bad things as well. I think it is bad to totally outcast him as a horrible leader. But then I dont want to praise him like a god.

Who does want him "to be praised like a god"? [/b]
there are some crazy as people who support mao zealously. And support every action of him.

Rasoolpuri
29th November 2006, 12:49
Due to love with some prostitutes girls we shold not ignore Mao's great works which he had done in the honour of his people

RedStarOverChina
29th November 2006, 16:28
I used to be a strong supporter of Mao, but after reading several very-reactionary-leaning works (The Unknown Mao by Jung Chang and "The Private Life of Chairman Mao" by his personal doctor Dr. Li Zhisui - opinons on these books would be appreciated).

You'd been doped.

Li Zhisui was paid by the FBI to write that book---every single one of his co-workers (many of them living abroad as well) came out and denounced that book as total bogus. They published a book (in Chinese) that totally refuted Li's "biography" of Mao.

But I think think any material by these people have ever been published where we live. I wonder why.

As to his supposed mistresses, it is a story single handedly exposed/fabricated by Li Zhisui. Most other people around Mao denied it or the rumour he had sex with prostitudes.

I don't know for sure if he had a mistress and I don't much care. The impression I had from reading the material published by those OTHER THAN Li was that, Mao's life was rather transparent...When he isn't meeting guests (which was an activity that consumed much of his later life), he'd be lying in bed reading.

I don't much care what other people think of Mao---But I take the time to defend him because I think those who attack Mao is doing so as an attempt to discredit the Chinese Revolution.

Janus
30th November 2006, 00:30
I think he is very disliked by Chinese people. I've especially never met an old person who thought highly of Mao, though a lot of them like Zhou and Deng.
A few Chinese people can not speak for the Chinese as a whole. Of course some dislike and hate Mao because of the effect that his policies had on them but this certainly doesn't mean that the Chinese hate him. Rather, Mao is gaining popularity in light of the recent trends that we are seeing.

OneBrickOneVoice
30th November 2006, 02:30
Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2006 04:28 pm

I used to be a strong supporter of Mao, but after reading several very-reactionary-leaning works (The Unknown Mao by Jung Chang and "The Private Life of Chairman Mao" by his personal doctor Dr. Li Zhisui - opinons on these books would be appreciated).

You'd been doped.

Li Zhisui was paid by the FBI to write that book---every single one of his co-workers (many of them living abroad as well) came out and denounced that book as total bogus. They published a book (in Chinese) that totally refuted Li's "biography" of Mao.

But I think think any material by these people have ever been published where we live. I wonder why.

As to his supposed mistresses, it is a story single handedly exposed/fabricated by Li Zhisui. Most other people around Mao denied it or the rumour he had sex with prostitudes.

I don't know for sure if he had a mistress and I don't much care. The impression I had from reading the material published by those OTHER THAN Li was that, Mao's life was rather transparent...When he isn't meeting guests (which was an activity that consumed much of his later life), he'd be lying in bed reading.

I don't much care what other people think of Mao---But I take the time to defend him because I think those who attack Mao is doing so as an attempt to discredit the Chinese Revolution.
Do you have a link? I know that Mao:The untold story is bullshit too. They source the KMT and fabricate evidence.

Link (http://revcom.us/a/021/mao-biography-hysterical-rant.htm)


New Mao Biography: Not Historical Scholarship but Hysterical Rant
Revolution #021, November 6, 2005, posted at revcom.us

The following article about a newly published book on Mao Zedong is a version of a leaflet being distributed by Set the Record Straight.

Mao: The Unknown Story by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday is not historical scholarship but hysterical rant. The purpose of this work is to demonize Mao Zedong and destroy his reputation, pure and simple. The master narrative is that Mao was evil from the day he was born--and committed evil upon evil until the day he died. Chang and Halliday reconstruct and fabricate history to make the case that a scheming and bloodthirsty opportunist hijacked an entire people and country.

Reader beware. You are being lied to. Mao: The Unknown Story plays fast and loose with facts, offers far-fetched theories based not on careful investigation but unrelenting hatred of Mao, and twists reality to fit an anticommunist agenda. The message in the bottle is that the Chinese revolution was not really necessary, and that great revolutionary leaders like Mao are in fact power-crazed tyrants and perpetrators of towering crimes. This book is a brief against revolution and revolutionary leaders. If you swallowed the justifying arguments about "weapons of mass destruction," you’ll adore this book.

Mao: The Unknown Story employs a methodology that distorts reality:

1.) Was a revolution needed?

The authors paint a picture of a revolution based on manipulation and terror. They whitewash the incredible misery and suffering of the old society, and the fact that for more than a century China had been beaten down and dominated by the imperialist powers of the West and Japan. They deny that tens and hundreds of millions of Chinese peasants and workers could possibly take up the revolutionary cause as their own. The masses of people have no agency in the company of Chang and Halliday--they are but pawns and putty.

You would not learn from this book that pre-revolutionary China was a society where arranged marriages and footbinding were widespread social practices. Or that four million people died each year of infectious and parasitic diseases. Or that in a city like Shanghai, young women workers were locked in textile factories at night, and one out of five persons was an opium addict. You wouldn’t know that the revolution in power rapidly transformed these social conditions. The Marriage Law of 1950, one of the first decrees of the new People’s Republic, established marriage by mutual consent and the right to divorce, and outlawed the sale of children and infanticide.

2.) Mao as revolutionary theorist and revolutionary leader.

It borders on the absurd. The authors are consumed with such venom for Mao that they cannot--in all 630 pages of text--bring themselves to treat Mao’s writings and speeches about the revolutionary process before and after the seizure of power. In the sordid psychohistory of Chang and Halliday, Mao’s ideas are simply hypocritical and manipulative means to attain personal domination. In fact, Mao analyzed the nature of Chinese society and developed programs and policies that spoke to the real material and social contradictions of Chinese society; and Mao brought forth a vision of moving society beyond exploitation and social divisions. All this inspired and motivated great numbers of people in China and around the world. This is what the authors find so reprehensible.

3.) Shoddy methods and sensationalistic claims.

The authors bask in the glow of a vast arsenal of references and sources--memoirs, hitherto inaccessible archives, interviews--and ten years of research. Boasting more than 125 pages of notes and sources…what the book says must be true--right? No, this is a snow job, and the relationship between claim and supporting evidence is shoddy beyond belief.

Let’s take three egregious examples:

The famous battle at the Dadu River Bridge during the Long March is now declared (pp. 152-55) to be a hoax, a self-serving myth invented by Mao and the Chinese Communist Party. The authors claim that “there was no battle” and “no Nationalist [Kuomintang] troops at the bridge.” They cite as a substantiating source the Kuomintang (KMT) archives. The KMT, which set world standards in corruption, and which suffered defeat at the hands of the Communist Party-led forces, is not exactly the most reliable source. Still, these archives contain useful historiographic materials—but, lo and behold, other scholars who have studied the KMT archives say they do not at all support the Chang/Halliday rewrite of history. Okay, but the authors furnish what they consider to be additional evidence, and key to this are the recollections of a “sprightly 93-year old” local woman they say they met in 1997! This quality of scholarship would be laughable in any other discipline. But somehow you can get away with this when it comes to Mao and the Chinese Revolution.
Listen to this gem about Mao’s view on education (p. 438): “Mao’s approach was not to raise the general standard of education in society as a whole, but to focus on a small elite, predominantly in science and other ‘useful’ subjects, and leave the rest of the population to be illiterate or semi-literate slave laborers.” If that were the case, how can you explain the fact that China’s literacy rate vaulted from 15 percent in 1949 to close to 80 percent by Mao’s death? Or that educational resources were vastly expanded in the rural areas during the Cultural Revolution, leading to rise in middle-school enrollment from 15 to 58 million? Or that with the huge opening up of educational opportunities through the Cultural Revolution, worker and peasant students became the great majority of China’s university enrollment by the early 1970s.
4.) The Chinese Revolution on the scales of history.

The Chinese revolution was a turning point in the history of the 20th century. As Mao said in 1949, “the Chinese people have stood up.” They stood up to feudal landlords, the Japanese invaders, the U.S.-financed KMT army, and foreign powers. Despite the authors’ outrageous claims, it was Mao who led in developing a military strategy to surround the cities from the countryside. He led in the development of a socialist society marked by the creative energy and initiative of those who had previously been treated as no more than a pair of hands.

This was a revolution that brought enormous social and economic progress to the great majority of people. Life expectancy more than doubled, from 32 years in 1949 to 65 years in 1975. China under Mao achieved what the U.S. has proven incapable of coming close to: a universal and egalitarian health care system. Industry grew by more than 10 percent a year during the Cultural Revolution. And by the early 1970s, China had solved its historic food problem. This revolution saved untold numbers of lives.

The Cultural Revolution, far from being Mao’s “Great Purge,” was a “revolution within the revolution.” It was a broad movement and upheaval aimed at preventing a new privileged class from taking power and turning China into what it has become since Mao died in 1976: a sweatshop paradise riddled with corruption and inequality. China is no longer socialist.

5.) What’s at stake in the debate over this book?

Basically two things. First, the truth of Mao and the Chinese revolution--what this revolution was about, what Mao stood for and did, and what the Chinese people accomplished. Second, the question of humanity’s future: can we put an end to the horrific exploitation, oppression, and inequality of the world as it is, and radically transform it—or is this the only world possible? Mao: The Unknown Story is character assassination with a reactionary moral writ large: dreams of radical and revolutionary change are doomed; long live the status quo.



there are some crazy as people who support mao zealously. And support every action of him.

Yeah there are people like that in almost every ideology.


villa's built everywhere he went during the Great Leap Foward, requiring enormous manpower and food supplies.

Do you have a source?

Also, keep in mind, Mao was lied too by beaurcrats in the party who exagerated harvest stats. That was one of the reasons of the Cultural Revolution, to get rid of those in the party who didn't give a shit about the people and their problems.

RedStarOverChina
30th November 2006, 03:36
Do you have a link? I know that Mao:The untold story is bullshit too. They source the KMT and fabricate evidence.


Like I said I don't think they published anything written by Li's co-workers in English. There's a one-sentence reference to it in wikipedia. Other than that, you'll have to read Chinese. :(

RedStarOverChina
30th November 2006, 03:55
5.) What’s at stake in the debate over this book?

Basically two things. First, the truth of Mao and the Chinese revolution--what this revolution was about, what Mao stood for and did, and what the Chinese people accomplished. Second, the question of humanity’s future: can we put an end to the horrific exploitation, oppression, and inequality of the world as it is, and radically transform it—or is this the only world possible? Mao: The Unknown Story is character assassination with a reactionary moral writ large: dreams of radical and revolutionary change are doomed; long live the status quo.

I find this to be especially true.