The Democratic Victory

[AlwaysAnarchy]

As most of you sure are aware, the Democrats in Congress have recently ousted the Republicans from power. The Republicans, being the most right wing , reactionary power being OUT of power is a good thing! :D

While the Democrats are far from perfect, it is true that they DO represent small change, a small change for the better. Maybe not as much much as we would like but it's still better than nothing! There is no reason we must choose one or the other - choosing either to no participate in election or choosing to do revolutionary work - we can do BOTH!

It is the sectarians ( <_< ) and purists who scream against it...while average people and good people who want to make some change, some impact in our lifetimes instead of just waiting for revolution, are happy to participate and support things that help workers and low-class people like increasing the minimum wage, protecting social security, pro gay unions, and getting out of Iraq eventually.

Remember that a defeat for the Republicans means more than just a political defeat, dudes, its a psychological one as well&#33;&#33;&#33; By showing the world and particularly the Muslims dudes that we are against the Bush policies, the Bush agenda and the whole right wing administration that came along with it, we are showing them that we REJECT all the crap that divides us, so we can better come together and work together for the future.

I want to say that I agree totally 100% with the post made by RevLeft member Burn The Olive Tree here:


Think about it. Anyone with half a brain cell knows that a revolutionarly leftist does not actually want the democrats in power in an ideal world. However, just in case we get the one guy without half a brain cell, we will make it abundantly clear that we only support voting democrat if you would otherwise vote republican. I would rather that America accepts civil unions than America says that God hates fags. I would rather America does not have a bunch of warmongering, redneck, gun-toting, gay-hating, evangelical fucknuts in power, thank you very much. Yes, I advocate voting for a capitalist party, so what? Where&#39;s your sense of context? Think before you post.

I have posted it again for Truth.

This is a great, wonderful day for working people and for pragmatic, real world revolutionaries.

Peace. :)

[Rollo]

I asked people to vote republican. Adleast they are honest about exploiting the working class.

[AlwaysAnarchy]

DUDE&#33;&#33;&#33; Are you NUTS??&#33;??

The Republicans&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; :o :o :o :o They are the worst of the worst of the whole right wing nasties&#33;&#33;

How can you even call yourself a revolutionary man&#33;

Me and Burn the Olive Tree do not support Democrats, we just don&#39;t want the Republicans to win, get it?

[Rollo]

Liberal and republican. Same mother, different father.

[t_wolves_fan]

I got &#036;5 says the Democrats alienate themselves within 2 subsequent election cycles.

And I don&#39;t say that because I love the GOP.

[AlwaysAnarchy]

You&#39;re nuts dude.

Maybe you&#39;re joking though and in that case, LOLZ ;)

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 06:15 pm
You&#39;re nuts dude.

Maybe you&#39;re joking though and in that case, LOLZ ;)
I&#39;m quite serious. I&#39;d love to believe that, considering most of their newcomers are moderates, they&#39;ll govern effectively and pragmatically; but given their recent history there&#39;s no reason to assume it will actually happen.

Quite frankly I think the message from the electorate last week was, generally, "We hate you both, but since one of you is doing so badly, I guess we&#39;ll take our chances with the other."

[AlwaysAnarchy]

No that was meant for Rollo

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 06:20 pm
No that was meant for Rollo
Well whatever.

You mentioned on another thread that you want to learn. I highly advise that you not take the slogans chanted on this site seriously.

[Rollo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2006 04:20 am
No that was meant for Rollo
Can you honestly describe the difference between liberalism and republicanism?

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Yea I think you are right.

All these revolutionaries , a lot of them are just utopian and dreamers and don&#39;t understand the way things work in the real world...like Rollo and company.

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Liberalism is less bad than Conservatism. Liberalism is pro choice, pro gay rights, pro civil unions, dont want so many tax cuts for the rich, werent so happy about the Iraq war, want to increase the minimum wage, lol....next???

Look I&#39;m not arguing for liberalism, you know me, i&#39;m just saying in this time and age, we need to be pragmatic at a non revolutionary time.

Get it?

[Rollo]

You&#39;re right. I should stop being a marxist-leninist and become a chomskyist-moorist such as yourself. The more I talk to you the more of a liberal you appear to be.

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Rollo - I am taking EXACTLY the same view as BurntheOliveTree, who is a RevLeft Member and may be even a CC member. Don&#39;t use that old "liberal&#39; trick on me.

[Rollo]

Which trick? I agree with burntheolivetree, I even once made a post recently " improve your life before the revolution comrades" but overall, liberalism is barely any better than republicanism.

[AlwaysAnarchy]

So we are in agreement dude? :wub:

Good.

Case closed.

god.... :rolleyes:

[Rollo]

I was confused for a bit there, thought you were agreeing with liberalism over revolution.

[AlwaysAnarchy]

just look at what I&#39;m saying&#33;

god... :rolleyes: :wub: :lol: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: DUDE COME ON&#33;&#33;&#33;

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 06:23 pm
Yea I think you are right.

All these revolutionaries , a lot of them are just utopian and dreamers and don&#39;t understand the way things work in the real world...like Rollo and company.
Bascially yes, and I don&#39;t know if Rollo is in touch with reality or not.

Rollo?

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Rollo&#39;s MIA.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 06:35 pm
Rollo&#39;s MIA.
Well let&#39;s focus on you then, maybe we can prevent another young mind from going to waste.

Given the complexity of modern society and our interconnectedness, how do you imagine anarchism is remotely possible?

[KC]

Peaceful Anarchist is a liberal. Don&#39;t even waste your time.

[Rollo]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+November 14, 2006 04:53 am--> (t_wolves_fan @ November 14, 2006 04:53 am)
[email protected] 13, 2006 06:35 pm
Rollo&#39;s MIA.
Well let&#39;s focus on you then, maybe we can prevent another young mind from going to waste.

Given the complexity of modern society and our interconnectedness, how do you imagine anarchism is remotely possible? [/b]
Timber wolvessuckfan you don&#39;t have much work to do. He&#39;s already very very confused. He wants peace but supports bakunin(sp?).

[colonelguppy]

dude the difference between the democrats and republicans is minimal, who ever is the most moderate in the two party system wins, and both parties no this.

i&#39;m curious to see what people think will actually be accomplished witht he power shift.

[Enragé]

PA

i can guarantee you that any change made by the democrats will be minimal, if any

The only reason democrats seem like they&#39;re not complete assholes is because they tend to cover their assholish nature better.

Also, i just saw on tv some thing about how this might not change all that much, since there are also alot of "conservative democrats", who are "pro-life" and all that crap.

We&#39;re not saying voting democrats is crap because we&#39;re utopian, far from it, we&#39;re saying that because we indeed realise it wont change anything. Power lies in the streets, and there we should organise, not jump on the democrat bandwagon.


oh and offtopic,
we&#39;re working to get you unrestricted, shouldnt take that long now, maybe one or 2 days.

i hope you stick around etc.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Arghh, again? Okay.

Rollo - It&#39;s easy to misunderstand him, but if you look carefully, PA has only ever said that liberalism is marginally better than the republican right. He didn&#39;t actually embrace liberalism as an ideology. But fair&#39;s fair, it&#39;s an easy mistake given the chomsky avatar.

NKOS - The fact is, there is nothing to be gained by not voting. Nobody in their right mind will think we are "jumping on the democratic bandwagon", it is painfully clear that we are only trying to get a better deal, however slight, for the average american, where revolution is not an immediate possibility. In the current material conditions there, a revolution will happen about the same time the pigs fly past your window. Therefore, use your vote tactically to try and get some, any, positive change.

KC - I only originally even got started with the voting democrat thing as a response to you saying "You&#39;re supporting the fucking bourgeoisie" or something like that. As yet, you have not made a single sincere reply. That&#39;s fair enough, but if you&#39;re going to just make snide comments then you&#39;re a dick.

-Alex

[Alexander Hamilton]

The Democratic Party&#39;s control of both the House and Senate will prove to accomplish the following:

1. There is generally very little difference between the two parties, from a Marxist point of view. Those who point out liberalism v. conservatism as being kissing cousins are correct to do so. There is, however, a BIG difference between the executive and the legislative branches of our government. Europeans, and people from the southwest region of Asia (sometimes called the Middle East) are about to have a bit of an American civics lesson. Even many Republicans are not happy about presidential signing statements and presidential authorized "courts" and presidential executive actions without congressional oversight. So the Republicans were asleep at the switch for 6 years. America will forgive them for being so for a couple of years post-9/11. But they&#39;re not happy about the past 4 years, especially the last 2. Congress is going to reassert itself, is going to embarrass President Bush with hearings, and generally begin to chart its own course.

2. President Bush is going to be a 2 year lame duck, or a two year rubber stamp, take your pick. There may be some genuine compromise, but on the big issues, the Congressional Leadership (read Democrats) are going to send out of Congress A WHOLE MESS OF BILLS that he&#39;ll want to veto. FINE BY THEM&#33; It&#39;s going to be McCain versus Clinton in &#39;08, and EVERY Republican is going to vote for McCain, and plenty of Democrats also. The Vice Presidential nominee is going to be a BIG issue, maybe the biggest. And the election began last Wednesday&#33; The Democrats hope Bush doesn&#39;t sign their bills because these bills will be tailored to represent middle American opinion, so that Hillary can say in &#39;08: We wrote good laws and he vetoed them, the bastard. Put me in the White House and you get a minimum wage hike, our troops come home, and all the other stuff you want.

3. On a certain level this will be a money wrench in the soundings of the revolutionary/radical left. World Can&#39;t Wait, at this very moment, is having an executive board meeting to determine whether impeachment will be their stated goal. The idiots (I am in contact with members in their planning) believed that we would toss the constitution into the East River and do ANYTHING to "remove" Bush. What fools. What schools did they go to. Our system of government survived 1812 through 1814, a Civil War and a Depression. They think one guy in the White House whose doing a crummy job is going to cause us to bail on the Constitution? Boy did the radical left fuck up on this one. Already you have Europeans saying things like, "Bush deserved it", and not, "America has to abandon their military bases in Germany, has to become more socialist, has to stop &#39;leading the Free World.&#39;" The biggest losers are Revolutionary forces, NOT in their attempts to make the world more democratically-socialist oriented (Venezuela and Nicaragua, for example, are going in that direction and the people are behind it.) But the loses in the radical left is in the attempt to sell the idea that America is facsist, or totalitarian, or that Bush runs a "regime", or that he&#39;s going to prevent elections in &#39;08 (which he can&#39;t), or that we&#39;re going to become a police state. One term in Congress will end a lot of the stuff everone&#39;s moaning about. And the stuff that&#39;s kept will represent the general views of America. [A note on this if you&#39;re interested: The Republican party used to be a lot better and understanding middle America. Moderate Republicans were some of our best Senate and Governorship leaders througout our country. But the religious idiots that got hold of the party in the late 80s and early 90s ruined all that. Now, liberal Democrats who HAVE to behave themselves and be moderate are taking over that part of the job.]

I realize that here at RevLeft.com, these nuances are lost on the commies. I understand that, because I know your struggle paints Hillary Clinton and George Bush with the same brush. Or sees no difference between executive and legislative authority. But for those who do not have your tinted glasses, the next two years will be one of the best examinations of our democracy at work.


A. Hamilton

[Enragé]

The fact is, there is nothing to be gained by not voting

if you advocate voting democrat, you perpetuate the idea that that changes anything, at all

Look im not against voting per say, but the difference between democrats and republicans are so small the whole "democratic" process is ridiculous even by bourgeois democratic standards.
Over here, im voting for the Socialist Party, so its not that im against voting, its that the democrat-republican divide is so non-existant, that to promote voting democrat is...well... nonsense.

I mean come on, at least vote for some fringe party then, maybe in some time they might pose a bit of a threat to the biggest two, that is, if genuine leftists stop trying to get people to vote democrat to get "things to change", because thats a fuckin myth, it WONT change.


Nobody in their right mind will think we are "jumping on the democratic bandwagon", it is painfully clear that we are only trying to get a better deal, however slight, for the average american, where revolution is not an immediate possibility. In the current material conditions there, a revolution will happen about the same time the pigs fly past your window. Therefore, use your vote tactically to try and get some, any, positive change.


then vote nader, or whatever (i dont know what other fringe parties there are), stop perpetuating the idea that democrats and republicans are different.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Wow.

I&#39;m disgusted. How can someone who claims they are a Revolutionary Marxist vote for a capitalist party? Wtf?

[violencia.Proletariat]

The fact is, there is nothing to be gained by not voting.

Sure there is. When you replace the action of voting with direct action you gain the means of production.

Nobody in their right mind will think we are "jumping on the democratic bandwagon", it is painfully clear that we are only trying to get a better deal, however slight, for the average american, where revolution is not an immediate possibility.


Not true at all. You understand that less than 50% of ALL adults able to vote actually vote. This is not even counting class lines (I&#39;m sure more of those who dont vote are working class). They realize it does nothing for them, and they&#39;re right.

What you are proposing is the mass mobilization of people into a voting booth in order to vote for a clearly capitalist party. Does this sound progressive in the least little way? Secondly if your going to get a majority of the proletariat to vote, why wouldnt you have them vote for some socialist party? If your going to dream, do it a little better than voting for the democrats.

The majority of people who actually vote that you&#39;d be trying to vote democratic are petty bourgeois people. Who gives a shit who they vote for.

The reality of the situation is that a large majority does not vote. Now, does it make more sense to spread revolutionary and direct action idealogy amongst this group. Or does it make more sense to get a majority of them to vote for a clearly capitalist party in order to make things "better." You see, you sound like you would rather we vote for a party to supposedly raise the minimum wage instead of organizing workers to get it themselves (which is how they got the 8 hour day). This is a bad thing because your not encouraging workers self emancipation and reliance.


In the current material conditions there, a revolution will happen about the same time the pigs fly past your window. Therefore, use your vote tactically to try and get some, any, positive change.

The majority of American students started to "dig" the revolution in just a few years. This is especially suprising seeing how they were raised in the 50&#39;s a clearly reactionary and anti-communist period. If thats possible, than pushing the revolution off as impossible will be your downfall. History has shown us that those who say "make revolution later" are almost always incorrect. When the opertunity for revolution is there and the people are ready for it, waiting is the worst possible thing as it leads to alienation. Don&#39;t make the mistakes of the CNT leadership (waiting to make revolution later when it&#39;s ripe and hapening) on some theoretical or bureaucratic grounds.

[ZX3]

Originally posted by patton+November 13, 2006 11:03 pm--> (patton @ November 13, 2006 11:03 pm)
[email protected] 13, 2006 10:51 pm

The fact is, there is nothing to be gained by not voting

if you advocate voting democrat, you perpetuate the idea that that changes anything, at all

Look im not against voting per say, but the difference between democrats and republicans are so small the whole "democratic" process is ridiculous even by bourgeois democratic standards.
Over here, im voting for the Socialist Party, so its not that im against voting, its that the democrat-republican divide is so non-existant, that to promote voting democrat is...well... nonsense.

I mean come on, at least vote for some fringe party then, maybe in some time they might pose a bit of a threat to the biggest two, that is, if genuine leftists stop trying to get people to vote democrat to get "things to change", because thats a fuckin myth, it WONT change.


Nobody in their right mind will think we are "jumping on the democratic bandwagon", it is painfully clear that we are only trying to get a better deal, however slight, for the average american, where revolution is not an immediate possibility. In the current material conditions there, a revolution will happen about the same time the pigs fly past your window. Therefore, use your vote tactically to try and get some, any, positive change.


then vote nader, or whatever (i dont know what other fringe parties there are), stop perpetuating the idea that democrats and republicans are different.
The american socialist party like they have a chance in hell of getting into office in the present day. [/b]
And their chances are greater if their votes go to the Democrats?

Socialism is such an intellectually dead theory.

[bcbm]

Wasting time and energy trying to get people to vote, or not to vote, is stupid.

Similarly, celebrating the victory of one bourgeois party that is by no measure any better than the other is stupid.

[Zero]

One thing that I found amusing was that a good 60% of the Democrats running for public office in Washington decided to make Impeachment a part of their foundation.

Now Peloski has lunch with Bush and impeachment goes out the window.

I voted Green, motherfuckers.

[Enragé]

The american socialist party like they have a chance in hell of getting into office in the present day

Well no
ofcourse not

WHEN PEOPLE KEEP THINKING LIKE THAT AND TELLING OTHERS TO VOTE DEMOCRAT

duh -_-&#39;

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 11:13 pm
Wow.

I&#39;m disgusted. How can someone who claims they are a Revolutionary Marxist vote for a capitalist party? Wtf?
You just don&#39;t get it man. Revolutionaries like me , Burn the Olive Tree and all want to see the revolution. But just know it&#39;s not coming anytime soon. So in the meantime, why not make some change, some small difference, some thing positive, some thing good, right while we can??

What is the point of being so sectarian and ultra left? What is the harm in voting? Nothing.

Except the chance that a better world comes out of it. :)

[AlwaysAnarchy]

patton - why are you a restricted member?

[Enragé]

Originally posted by patton+November 14, 2006 03:08 pm--> (patton @ November 14, 2006 03:08 pm)
[email protected] 14, 2006 01:16 pm

The american socialist party like they have a chance in hell of getting into office in the present day

Well no
ofcourse not

WHEN PEOPLE KEEP THINKING LIKE THAT AND TELLING OTHERS TO VOTE DEMOCRAT

duh -_-&#39;
Over 90% of this country views voting for 3rd party as wasteing there vote cuz they think have no chance of getting into office. It has always been this i dont think it will ever change. [/b]
<_<

if im not mistaken the political landscape, organisationally, is the same in the UK

and there they have 3 large parties too

&#39;sides, even if it isnt
how about
you know
trying to change people&#39;s minds instead of comforming your position untill it matches that of the rest in the US?


patton - why are you a restricted member?

i think he&#39;s a socdem, or just a left-ish democrat.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2006 11:26 am
You just don&#39;t get it man. Revolutionaries like me , Burn the Olive Tree and all want to see the revolution. But just know it&#39;s not coming anytime soon. So in the meantime, why not make some change, some small difference, some thing positive, some thing good, right while we can??
If you think voting for the Democrats accomplishes any of those things, you are very naive or very stupid.



What is the point of being so sectarian and ultra left? What is the harm in voting? Nothing.

What is the harm in not voting? Why bother encouraging people to vote at all?


Except the chance that a better world comes out of it. :)

Are you fucking kidding me? The Democrats have at least as much blood on their hands as the Republicans, if not more, given their inclination to muddle in all sorts of other countries&#39; business. Vietnam?

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+November 13, 2006 06:53 pm--> (t_wolves_fan @ November 13, 2006 06:53 pm)
[email protected] 13, 2006 06:35 pm
Rollo&#39;s MIA.
Well let&#39;s focus on you then, maybe we can prevent another young mind from going to waste.

Given the complexity of modern society and our interconnectedness, how do you imagine anarchism is remotely possible? [/b]
Sir, you ask a very good question. One in which I do not have the answer to at this moment.

I just want to make this world a better place...with as little violence as possible. That&#39;s my philosophy in a nutshell. :)

[Zero]

I thought patton = General_Patton. Or whoever that crazy rightwinger we had on here that would do nothing but shout baseless accusations at the general left and centerist positions.

[AlwaysAnarchy]

No, patton makes a lot of sense


As for me, I take the same position as Burntheolivetree does. Hes a revolutionary too. Just like me.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2006 05:48 pm
I thought patton = General_Patton. Or whoever that crazy rightwinger we had on here that would do nothing but shout baseless accusations at the general left and centerist positions.
Nah. He used to spend a lot of time agreeing with that GP fuck, but he&#39;s improving. Growing like a flower.

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 06:53 pm

Given the complexity of modern society and our interconnectedness, how do you imagine anarchism is remotely possible?
Sir, you ask a very good question. One in which I do not have the answer to at this moment.

That&#39;s troubling because the answer is simple and straightforward: it isn&#39;t.


I just want to make this world a better place...with as little violence as possible. That&#39;s my philosophy in a nutshell. :)

And how far does reading and droning on and on and on and on about a political system that has no realistic application go towards meeting that goal?

[Enragé]

Americans have become soft and comfortable,

soft and comfortable is relative as hell

in comparison to european workers, american workers are generally extremely underpaid, with an extremely shitty network of social security

and mexican workers are soft and comfortable in comparison to bangladeshi ones.

so..
mentality has to change, c&#39;est ça


I consider myself a socdem.

you ruled in europe

europe sucks.

social democracy failed.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

What it boils down to are two key points.

First, are the republicans any worse than the democrats?

Second, is a revolution happening tomorrow, in America?

Let&#39;s take the issue of gay marriage. Almost no republicans support gay marriage, and very few support civil unions. The majority of democrats support civil unions, which aren&#39;t ideal, but better than nothing. A fair few support gay marriage. Almost none have the far right response that some republicans do, "Get the fuck back in the closet you dirty fag, God hates you". The republicans are batshit insane evangelical members of the "kill the towelheads" persuasion. The democrats are batshit insane, mildly religious, members of the "Well, perhaps it&#39;s okay to have a man kiss another man" persuasion.

It&#39;s all very well to be optimistic and say I&#39;m being cynical, but a revolution will not happen in the U.S anytime soon. One state allows gay marriage there. Fucking one&#33; And you seriously think that a communist revolution is not all that unlikely, soon? Over 50 percent believe in angels, I read the other day. I read in Richard Dawkins new book that 40 something percent think the world was created pretty much in it&#39;s current state, roughly 6000 years ago.

If you think we&#39;re kicking out the bourgeoisie anytime soon, think again. There is simply too much ground work left to do before we&#39;d be anywhere close to ready?

So, in lieu of a revolution, let&#39;s at least show Bush that he can&#39;t merrily invade countries with no reprisal? Voting communist and socialist parties is an entirely hollow gesture, they aren&#39;t getting any success with the U.S in it&#39;s current political climate, simple as that.

Not voting is a protest just makes us look like sulking brats that would rather alienate themselves from all things non-commie. Please see that voting is a positive action where a revolution is not realistic.

-Alex

[Enragé]

So, in lieu of a revolution, let&#39;s at least show Bush that he can&#39;t merrily invade countries with no reprisal? Voting communist and socialist parties is an entirely hollow gesture, they aren&#39;t getting any success with the U.S in it&#39;s current political climate, simple as that.

Voting democrat is a hollow gesture too, in fact, its worse, since you perpetuate the idea that any true change can be gotten through bourgeois democracy


Your time would be better spent spreading class consciousness than trying to get people to vote democrat.

[encephalon]

This is not a forum for reformists.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by patton+November 14, 2006 09:09 pm--> (patton @ November 14, 2006 09:09 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2006 06:06 pm

[email protected] 14, 2006 05:48 pm
I thought patton = General_Patton. Or whoever that crazy rightwinger we had on here that would do nothing but shout baseless accusations at the general left and centerist positions.
Nah. He used to spend a lot of time agreeing with that GP fuck, but he&#39;s improving. Growing like a flower.
Jazzrrat i will be the first to admit that i agreed with G.P. a lot the first month or so on these forums but since then i have started to talk with you guys instead at you guys. I am a pretty open minded person. [/b]
Yeah, it&#39;s good to see that there is a point to having this section of our forum.

[ZX3]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2006 08:14 pm
What it boils down to are two key points.

First, are the republicans any worse than the democrats?

Second, is a revolution happening tomorrow, in America?

Let&#39;s take the issue of gay marriage. Almost no republicans support gay marriage, and very few support civil unions. The majority of democrats support civil unions, which aren&#39;t ideal, but better than nothing. A fair few support gay marriage. Almost none have the far right response that some republicans do, "Get the fuck back in the closet you dirty fag, God hates you". The republicans are batshit insane evangelical members of the "kill the towelheads" persuasion. The democrats are batshit insane, mildly religious, members of the "Well, perhaps it&#39;s okay to have a man kiss another man" persuasion.

It&#39;s all very well to be optimistic and say I&#39;m being cynical, but a revolution will not happen in the U.S anytime soon. One state allows gay marriage there. Fucking one&#33; And you seriously think that a communist revolution is not all that unlikely, soon? Over 50 percent believe in angels, I read the other day. I read in Richard Dawkins new book that 40 something percent think the world was created pretty much in it&#39;s current state, roughly 6000 years ago.

If you think we&#39;re kicking out the bourgeoisie anytime soon, think again. There is simply too much ground work left to do before we&#39;d be anywhere close to ready?

So, in lieu of a revolution, let&#39;s at least show Bush that he can&#39;t merrily invade countries with no reprisal? Voting communist and socialist parties is an entirely hollow gesture, they aren&#39;t getting any success with the U.S in it&#39;s current political climate, simple as that.

Not voting is a protest just makes us look like sulking brats that would rather alienate themselves from all things non-commie. Please see that voting is a positive action where a revolution is not realistic.

-Alex

How does endorsing gay rights or opposing religion further the cause of overthrowing the capitalist sytem? Won&#39;t the capitalist simply adapt?

[bcbm]

let&#39;s at least show Bush that he can&#39;t merrily invade countries with no reprisal?

What reprisal will he face? He&#39;ll serve a full term and get to spend the rest of his life much as he spent the earlier part: in luxury.

[Severian]

Y&#39;know, I&#39;m still waiting for the "argument for pragmatism." The thread title&#39;s definitely false advertising.

Please, how will electing Democrats accomplish anything, even from a reformist perspective? All you got by electing Clinton was the abolition of AFDC (one of the 4 programs enacted in the 1935 Social Security Act). Plus the Defense of Marriage Act. Plus he "merrily invaded countries with no reprisal" - more countries than Bush has actually.

Since the 30s at least, so-called "Communists" have been voting for Democrats as the lesser evil. With nothing to show for it - the Democratic Party in many ways has actually moved to the right. And along the way, Democratic presidents launched most of the major wars of the 20th century.

It was Republican presidents who finally ended the Korean and Vietnam Wars&#33; Because they were under pressure. That&#39;s what matters immediately and "pragmatically", not which party is in office.

It&#39;s the opposite of "pragmatic" to keep doing something which has failed again and again.

Working people have only gained when we&#39;ve taken to the streets. When we&#39;ve represented ourselves - not looked to some boss-class politician to save us.

The strikes, organizing drives, and unemployed protests of the 30s - produced Social Security, etc. They were not the product of Roosevelt, who actually ran for office originally on a promise to cut spending&#33; The mass civil rights movement - produced the end of formal, official racist segregation. That was not the product of LBJ&#39;s good will - he was a Dixiecrat for crying out loud. The mass antiwar movement of the 60s and 70s - helped get the U.S. out of Vietnam. (The Vietnamese guerillas deserve most of the credit.)

And because those victories were won in struggle - not handed down by the generosity of the bosses - they encourage people to fight for more. The abolition of Jim Crow increased chances for united action of white and Black workers. The "Vietnam syndrome" has permanently caused problems for the warmakers.

Pragmatism is to keep doing what&#39;s worked - organize and fight back against the bosses and their government. Not supporting the lesser-evil faction of that government.

Lesser-evil politics hurt every one of those movements. Their leaders didn&#39;t just say "Vote for the Democrats." They tried to hold back the struggle to keep from hurting the Democrats at the polls. ML King almost called off the Battle of Birmingham &#39;cause Kennedy asked him to - fortunately there was too much pressure from below. The movement against the Vietnam war ebbed every election year. And the union movement most of all&#33; It&#39;s always been hamstrung by pro-Democratic misleaders.

To combat this - you gotta consistently oppose support to the Democrats. You gotta explain - that we shouldn&#39;t care which party wins. Their differences are just tactical disagreements about how to beat up on working people. Instead of worrying about that - let&#39;s figure out how to beat up the bosses.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

I&#39;d only be repeating myself to keep arguing, so we&#39;ll agree to disagree.

-Alex

[EwokUtopia]

Who cares about this election? We will still see 30,000 some odd kids starving to death each and every day, so what if the new party will be more lenient on gay marriage and abortion rights in one sector of the world. You must realize that, although these are important issues to be sure, they absolutly pale in comparison to the ills commited by Western Capitalism. I would far preffer a Paleoconservative America with extreme isolationist ideas that completely shuts itself in to the most liberalized capitalistic society, where gay marriage and abortion, and marijuana legislation are facts, but they still perpetuate the absolute disparity of north and south through their economics.

Both are terrible options, but Id rather have America being as fucked as fucked can be and leaving the rest of the world alone than have America as the pinacle of liberty and freedom for its citizens on the backs of the rest of the world. I mean, lets face facts, the chance of Pat Buchannon and his Paleoconazi&#39;s sweeping into power in America through "democratic" means is infinately greater than the chance of the US becoming a truly socialistic society through the same means. Both are unlikely, but Socialism will not be found in the ballot boxes, and if it is, it will be friendly capitalism, nothing more, and well still have rampant starvation and poverty the world through.

At least with the Republicans, their capitalism is easier to target because they are more blatant assholes about it, the Democrats can be sneaky motherfuckers, making them far more dangerous. The unrevealed threat is infinately greater.

[t_wolves_fan]

You know Return of the Jedi is fictional, right?

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 10:21 pm
You know Return of the Jedi is fictional, right?
What did that flame add to the discussion?

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 09:24 pm
oh and offtopic,
we&#39;re working to get you unrestricted, shouldnt take that long now, maybe one or 2 days.

i hope you stick around etc.
Don&#39;t worry I will&#33; :P I&#39;m here to learn&#33; Anyway, any idea on when I will unrestricted or maybe let out of my cage? ;)

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Originally posted by t_wolves_fan+November 14, 2006 06:40 pm--> (t_wolves_fan @ November 14, 2006 06:40 pm)

[email protected] 13, 2006 06:53 pm

Given the complexity of modern society and our interconnectedness, how do you imagine anarchism is remotely possible?
Sir, you ask a very good question. One in which I do not have the answer to at this moment.

That&#39;s troubling because the answer is simple and straightforward: it isn&#39;t.


I just want to make this world a better place...with as little violence as possible. That&#39;s my philosophy in a nutshell. :)

And how far does reading and droning on and on and on and on about a political system that has no realistic application go towards meeting that goal? [/b]
I don&#39;t believe anyone has all the answers sir - that includes YOU, that includes ME< that includes EVERYONE here.

I admit that I am still young and I am still learning - but that should not prevent me from having goals in life and things I want to see changed in this world just cause I dont have all the answers at the moment. ;)

[AlwaysAnarchy]

Soo what do you guys think about MURTHA losing to HOYER in the House Democratic Leadership election thing? ;)

[t_wolves_fan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2006 07:50 pm
Soo what do you guys think about MURTHA losing to HOYER in the House Democratic Leadership election thing? ;)
The Dems avoided a serious landmine.

Democrats: "Vote for us because the GOP is corrupt."

U.S.: "OK"

Pelosi: "I think a guy who&#39;s been captured on tape implicitly accepting bribes should be Majority Leader; oh and a guy who was impeached from the federal bench for accepting bribes should be in charge of the Intelligence Committee."

U.S.: "Oh for fuck&#39;s sake&#33;"

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 11:28 am
Yet the major reason why western Europe has these benefits that America doesnt are because of the Social Democractes. You might want to give that some thought.
I gotta dispute that. Can the same cause produce opposite effects? &#39;Cause now in Europe the social democrats are trying to roll back social benefits.

Like anywhere else - what working people have won in Europe is a product of working people organizing and fighting back. Not handed down benevolently from above by social democratic or any other politicians.

[Marx Lenin Stalin]

And this Democrat gets to be unrestricted, while Marxists Leninists remain restricted.

Great policy.