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James
13th November 2006, 17:47
Bassically as it says on the tin:
should multiculturalism be tolerated?
If so, why/howcome?
If not, why/howcome?

I would offer a definition of multiculturalism, but i think that the action of doing so will be important to answering the question. And i expect there will be different asnwers (because of different definitions).

Would i be right in assuming the more leftwing marxists will be against it, as it is essentially a question of the existance of pluralism?

FriedFrog
13th November 2006, 20:15
I'm not sure tolerated is the right word I'd chose for my opinion on multiculturalism. Personally, I'd love to live in a more multi-cultural area (I live in white middle class suburbia), so to say I would 'tolerate' it would seem to say that I don't like it, but I put up with it.

This is assuming multiculturalism refers to the idea of more than one culture living together... The dictionary definition seems to think a state or nation is neccessary for multiculturalism, but I dont see why it does.

As for the pluralism question, people have different opinions, no?

I definatley tolerate pluralism. I respect anyone's 'right' to think what they want to think, so long as it doesnt affect me in any way that I wouldnt like.

Erm, does that answer your question? I think I understood it.

manic expression
13th November 2006, 21:44
I don't see how multiculturalism would be contrary to leftist aims. IMO, diverse cultures enrich and improve a society. As a matter of fact, I think leftists should embrace multiculturalism. After all, "all workers of all lands" includes people of all cultures (to name one reason of many).

Why do you think leftists would be against multiculturalism?

Ol' Dirty
13th November 2006, 22:10
Culture is usually defined somehere along these lines:

N. (V. Cultural) The beliefs, customs and rituals of a group of people.

I see no reason to be against someone who thinks differently than me unless they are trying to harm or manipulate me. Do you?

Vanguard1917
13th November 2006, 22:16
A distinction needs to be made first: 'multiculturalism' as social reality, and multiculturalism as political policy.

The former should obviously be supported. People from diverse cultural backgrounds coming together is a good thing.

Multiculturalism as political policy, however... that is something entirely different. It's the politicisation of people's differences. It's the promotion of difference as an end in itself. It's the celebration of our differences over our commonalities. In other words, it's a kind of segregationist policy.

LSD
14th November 2006, 01:39
should multiculturalism be tolerated?

The question isn't whether or not multiculturalism should be "tolerated", it's whether or not it should be supported.

Multiple cultures aren't going anywhere, not for the forseeable future anyway, and there's no society on earth that doesn't contain a plurality of cultural groups, whether it admits it or not.

That said, though, some societies have made it a matter of state policy to encourage multiculturalism as a part of "celebrating our differences". That danger of that approach is that it institutionalizes culture and tradition and equates learned behaviour with immutable characteristics.

Religion and customs are no more "fundamental" than sexism and greed. They're deeply rooted, sure, but they can and do change.

That's not to say, however, that the "melting pot" paradigm is a good one; it isn't. But then the "melting pot" has never been about diempowering "culture", it's about glorifying it, albeit only in regards to one cultural tradition.

Menawhile the only progressive choice is to reject the entire relativist notion of cultural supremacy and recognize that human behaviour is just human behaviour. That it doesn't matter if woman's "culture" tells her to hack off her clitoris or hide her face from the world, it's still wrong.

There's no universal "morality", but there is an objective material universe and actions or behaviours which harm people harm people whether their "culture" legitimates it or not.

So while of course people must be as free as possible to live out their lives as they see fit, that freedom needs to be conceptualized as individual, not "cultural". Because, like with racism, it's the entire paradigm that's the problem.

Zero
14th November 2006, 06:08
A culture is just a set of sociological barriers set up in the Human psyche of what is "normal" and what is "un-normal". It's not if you want to support or deny 'multi-culturalism' its if you support each individual's right to express themselves.

Severian
14th November 2006, 14:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 07:39 pm
That said, though, some societies have made it a matter of state policy to encourage multiculturalism as a part of "celebrating our differences". That danger of that approach is that it institutionalizes culture and tradition and equates learned behaviour with immutable characteristics.
.....
That's not to say, however, that the "melting pot" paradigm is a good one; it isn't. But then the "melting pot" has never been about diempowering "culture", it's about glorifying it, albeit only in regards to one cultural tradition.
Right. Those are both ruling-class policies. There are others, too. The whole debate among them is a debate about how to keep the ruling class on top of increasingly heterogenous societies.

So there's a very limited point to just asking: for or against "multiculturalism", however that's defined. If we oppose it, as I agree we should: the larger question is - from what direction do we oppose it? What are we for?

The working class needs our own nationality policy, aimed at advancing our unity and interests. What kind of policy that would be, is something that needs discussing....

A past thread on "Multiculturalism" where the discussion got into aspects of that. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=44451)

Edit: Link fixed, sorry.

Vanguard1917
15th November 2006, 00:30
I think you've got the wrong link there, Severian.

Eastside Revolt
16th November 2006, 02:56
Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2006 02:49 pm
The working class needs our own nationality policy, aimed at advancing our unity and interests. What kind of policy that would be, is something that needs discussing....
Coming from a poster city for multiculturalism, I have a couple sujestions as to a good policy.

- It is a racist policy to accept chauvanism and misosyny from people based on their ethnicity.

- Counting government funded festivals, and business parterships as integration is completely false.

- Rejecting nationalism. (obviously)

- And promoting class war, women's rights' etc to those of non western cultures.

Cooler Reds Will Prevail
16th November 2006, 04:46
I see little reason to not support multi-culturalism, I would hate to live in a world where I couldn't smoke shisha with my Arab friends, sing Vicente Fernandez with my Mexican friends, go to open mics with my Black friends, watch Bollywood movies with my Indian friends, or listen to bad Eurotechno with my Polish friends. Open borders, open integration! Life is boring when I'm not constantly in contact with different cultures and peoples.

It is important, however, not to break down into identity politics and cultural chauvinism. While I personally love my Mexican culture, I'm sure other people love theirs just the same, there's no need to feel superior to others because of it.

encephalon
16th November 2006, 05:52
Culture is a matter of which class controls the means of production. As has been happening for the past couple of centuries, as capitalism expands, so too does the culture it creates. At the apex of Capitalism, speaking of "multiculturalism" would be like speaking of "the peasants." They will be things of the past, and humanity is already becoming increasingly homogeneous across the world; not to say we don't have our differences, but merely that capitalism has necessarily brought us closer together in culture in order to increase profits and a uniform method of exploitation of the labor force for maximum efficiency.

Of course, cultures do exist today, some more reactionary than others; and if multiculturalism includes accepting the reactionary or oppressive mores of any given culture, then no--multiculturalism is not a good thing.

Cooler Reds Will Prevail
16th November 2006, 19:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2006 05:52 am
Culture is a matter of which class controls the means of production. As has been happening for the past couple of centuries, as capitalism expands, so too does the culture it creates. At the apex of Capitalism, speaking of "multiculturalism" would be like speaking of "the peasants." They will be things of the past, and humanity is already becoming increasingly homogeneous across the world; not to say we don't have our differences, but merely that capitalism has necessarily brought us closer together in culture in order to increase profits and a uniform method of exploitation of the labor force for maximum efficiency.

Of course, cultures do exist today, some more reactionary than others; and if multiculturalism includes accepting the reactionary or oppressive mores of any given culture, then no--multiculturalism is not a good thing.
So you're basically saying that the entirety of one's culture is just a product of Capitalism? I'm sorry, that's bullshit, you can't realistically tell me that ranchera music, danza folklorica, enchiladas, etc. are "reactionary". Sure, I can agree that some things are; the religiosity of Mexican society is quite reactionary, but the culture as a whole is not, I really doubt that Pedro Infante albums have planted the seeds of counterrevoltion lmao. I can also agree that the culture of the oppressing class, often an outside force, is spread throughout the new society, but that's no reason to demonize differences or to strive for a homogenous society where we all enjoy doing the same things. That's quite a fascist viewpoint. It's not that we shouldn't have differences, it's that we shouldn't allow them to affect our relations with each other. Society is NOT becoming homogenous at any accelerated rate, society is becoming more multi-cultural. Ethnically perhaps this it the case, but ethnicity does not hinder the embracing of any culture.

Severian
16th November 2006, 22:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 11:52 pm
At the apex of Capitalism, speaking of "multiculturalism" would be like speaking of "the peasants." They will be things of the past, and humanity is already becoming increasingly homogeneous across the world;
In a perfect world, sure.

But in reality, these tendencies of capitalist development can never go to total completion. Reality is always much messier.

Raisa
17th November 2006, 08:58
Whats my alternative?

White domination?!

encephalon
17th November 2006, 11:12
So you're basically saying that the entirety of one's culture is just a product of Capitalism?

No, I'm not. I'm saying that culture is not separate from politics nor economics. It is not the cause, it is the product.



I'm sorry, that's bullshit, you can't realistically tell me that ranchera music, danza folklorica, enchiladas, etc. are "reactionary". Sure, I can agree that some things are; the religiosity of Mexican society is quite reactionary, but the culture as a whole is not, I really doubt that Pedro Infante albums have planted the seeds of counterrevoltion lmao.


I didn't claim that all aspects of any given culture are reactionary; merely, I'm stating that "multiculturalism" often includes accepting reactionary aspects of a culture merely for the sake of multiculturalism. We should not be any more accepting of reactionary practices in cultures beyond our own than we are of those practices within our own culture.



I can also agree that the culture of the oppressing class, often an outside force, is spread throughout the new society, but that's no reason to demonize differences or to strive for a homogenous society where we all enjoy doing the same things. That's quite a fascist viewpoint. It's not that we shouldn't have differences, it's that we shouldn't allow them to affect our relations with each other. Society is NOT becoming homogenous at any accelerated rate, society is becoming more multi-cultural.


You're wrong. Culturally, global society is exponentially more hegemonic than it was three centuries ago. As ideas and commodities spread, and with them cultural relationships, different cultures merge together--often creating a new hybrid culture. If you deny that happens, then we can just forget about the whole thing now. Eventually, global culture emerges.

You're eating tacos in sweden, potatoes and corn in Ireland, dumplings in mexico and staple chinese diets in alaska. You're watching Japanese animation in Pennsylvania and Chuck Norris movies in Korea. We're all reading the same things (at least those that have access) and watching the same things (ditto), with local variations perhaps, and we're all partaking in the same global arena of ideas.

Whether you like it or not, local culture is being replaced with global culture, and there's no way to get around it without entirely isolating yourself. It's a process that has been going on for millenia, and will continue to do so. All of the world's cultures have and will continue to blend.

It isn't fascist to admit the truth (you might want to look up the definition of fascist). I'm not advocating any sort of cultural imperialism; I merely state that the merging of all cultures has happened and will happen until the entire world is generally of the same culture, and that culture is always defined by the ruling class and economic circumstances.



Ethnically perhaps this it the case, but ethnicity does not hinder the embracing of any culture.

I'm not quite sure how you're differentiating between culture and ethnicity; I assume by ethnicity you're referring to the physical traits of a person whose ancestry is from a certain part of the world? Yeah, that'll disappear too, given time.



In a perfect world, sure.

But in reality, these tendencies of capitalist development can never go to total completion. Reality is always much messier.


I don't claim that it will be complete under capitalism; only that capitalism accelerates it as it reaches its corporate arms across the entire world.


Whats my alternative?

White domination?!

I think you misunderstand my position. I don't believe any culture should be accepted as a whole. I don't think that we should accept the bad with the good, in white dominated society or any other society. Granted, that bad will always wriggle its way through the firewall, but we should not mask our indifference to the sufferings of anyone in any culture with a viel of "multiculturalism."

The domination of one person over another is wrong, no matter how entrenched it is in any given culture. Exploitation is wrong. The oppression of women, children, black white yellow orange--you get the idea. If a culture has reactionary elements, it should not be accepted as something we should respect.

manic expression
17th November 2006, 18:17
Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2006 11:12 am
No, I'm not. I'm saying that culture is not separate from politics nor economics. It is not the cause, it is the product.

Politics and economics influence culture, but I don't think you can really say the equation is so simple and so universal. In fact, oftentimes culture influences politics and economics.


I didn't claim that all aspects of any given culture are reactionary; merely, I'm stating that "multiculturalism" often includes accepting reactionary aspects of a culture merely for the sake of multiculturalism. We should not be any more accepting of reactionary practices in cultures beyond our own than we are of those practices within our own culture.

Yes, it can include accepting reactionary aspects of culture. Few, if any, are making excuses for those aspects. However, if you understand a culture and why there are such aspects, you can more effectively and appropriately change them. We should not accept reactionary practices, but we should not be ignorant to them either.


You're eating tacos in sweden, potatoes and corn in Ireland, dumplings in mexico and staple chinese diets in alaska. You're watching Japanese animation in Pennsylvania and Chuck Norris movies in Korea. We're all reading the same things (at least those that have access) and watching the same things (ditto), with local variations perhaps, and we're all partaking in the same global arena of ideas.

There are a few parts to this. First, the exchange and (sometimes superficial) practice of different cultures does not take away from the culture being practiced. Pasta being eaten in California does nothing to cheapen Italian culture. Second, (as you said) the mixing and matching of culture has gone on for centuries, this is nothing new. I don't see how this is so different. This pattern will not create a homogenous culture, but an enrichment of culture through exchange.


Whether you like it or not, local culture is being replaced with global culture, and there's no way to get around it without entirely isolating yourself. It's a process that has been going on for millenia, and will continue to do so. All of the world's cultures have and will continue to blend.

I agree, but this seems to suggest the opposite. If you look at a specific region of the world, you will see the development of culture intertwined with intercultural exchange. However, you will usually fail to see a homogenous culture, and you will usually see some sort of continuity between culture A and culture A2 (A2 being the result of exchange).

Nowhere is this more apparent than in language. Language can often be a reflection of culture (among other things). We see that although some languages have died off and some have become dominant, there is nothing remotely close to a lack of linguistic diversity. There is exchange and influence from other languages (new words are added directly from another tongue), but there is a great amount of diversity and identity. Culture is the same IMO.


I don't claim that it will be complete under capitalism; only that capitalism accelerates it as it reaches its corporate arms across the entire world.

Capitalism does rape and abuse cultures for profit, yes, but that is another matter. Is Taco Bell really Mexican food? Not really. It may affect culture in some areas, but corporatism does not go much deeper.


If a culture has reactionary elements, it should not be accepted as something we should respect.

Yes, those specific elements should not be respected. However, we should not condemn an entire culture for some reactionary elements, as those aspects must be changed for the better.

rouchambeau
18th November 2006, 04:03
Whats my alternative?

White domination?!

If the OP had his way, yeah. =(

encephalon
18th November 2006, 05:42
Politics and economics influence culture, but I don't think you can really say the equation is so simple and so universal. In fact, oftentimes culture influences politics and economics.


If you're a materialist, then you recognize that material circumstances dictate all human behavior. I'm not saying it's a simple equation--in fact, it's probably far too complex to really dissect without knowing the exact circumstances at any given point in human history--but I am saying that it dictates culture and politics.

Culture didn't appear out of thin air, no matter how much any of us would have liked it to do so. Different cultures arose differently precisely because the material circumstances that dictated their behaviors were different. Incans didn't have hundreds of corn dishes because they just loved corn soooooo much; they had so many dishes because it was the material world in which they found themselves. The same goes for any aspect of culture: it might not be as obvious in some respects, especially if the material circumstances that bore one aspect of a given culture have changed. We don't spontaneously make up our culture.

And yes, a culture and its political institutions can indeed affect the material circumstances; if I didn't know that already, I wouldn't call myself a communist. It's exactly what we're all betting on.



Yes, it can include accepting reactionary aspects of culture. Few, if any, are making excuses for those aspects. However, if you understand a culture and why there are such aspects, you can more effectively and appropriately change them. We should not accept reactionary practices, but we should not be ignorant to them either.


Culture is an integration of many weaving factors; you can't change one without changing the whole. In fact, I don't think *we* can change them at all, at least by our own will. The change of culture is a natural process, and one that is nigh impossible to dictate by decree or force. Anyone with an inkling of knowledge about world history should know this by now.

Define "ignorant to them." Ignorant to what? Wife beatings? Genital mutilation? Slavery, by wages or otherwise? Belief in tooth fairies? Shooting your neighbors? Clubbing visitors on the head?

I'm quite aware of the reactionary practices of many cultures, and I'm quite aware of progressive aspects of many different cultures as well. The problem, however, is that the term "multiculturalism" implies a b lanket acceptance of cultural practices, however abhorrent those practices may be. Our goal should not be to accept existing cultures; our goal should be to integrate the good or neutral aspects into a culture that is acceptable.

I will not accept the machismo of many latin american cultures, even though I've no problem with anyone that comes from a hispanic culture. If they shed the reactionary aspects of that given culture, then culture really doesn't matter to me. But for the most part, at this given point in human history, a great many people should be able to transcend the reactionary elements into which they are born, and if they don't I refuse to accept them in the name of multiculturalism.



There are a few parts to this. First, the exchange and (sometimes superficial) practice of different cultures does not take away from the culture being practiced. Pasta being eaten in California does nothing to cheapen Italian culture. Second, (as you said) the mixing and matching of culture has gone on for centuries, this is nothing new. I don't see how this is so different. This pattern will not create a homogenous culture, but an enrichment of culture through exchange.



Nor did I claim it cheapened any culture (nor was I really talking about taco bell, but that's another matter). Yes, sometimes it is superficial; but would you call a derivation of marxism by an African tribe "superficial?" Of course you wouldn't, and it's no different with food. The food from one culture is prepared under the guise of another culture, and it really creates an entirely different product altogether.

If by "multiculturalism" you mean that I should accept the cooking practices of chileans, then sure, I agree full-heartedly. I see no reason why those practices shouldn't be accepted. But if you mean I should accept the political authoritarianism that has plagued Russia's people for a thousand years and is deeply entrenched in their culture, then no: I will not accept that part of their culture. Peter the great was just as much a bastard as Stalin, and I'm not going to encourage that trend.


I agree, but this seems to suggest the opposite. If you look at a specific region of the world, you will see the development of culture intertwined with intercultural exchange. However, you will usually fail to see a homogenous culture, and you will usually see some sort of continuity between culture A and culture A2 (A2 being the result of exchange).


Yes, you will; and if you look at the history of that area over the past few hundreds of years, you'll see that the local culture is slowly displaced and taken over by an emergent trans-culture. I never once said that cultures do not exist today--it's foolish to suggest as such. I'm saying that over the course of history, local cultures have been replaced with more encompassing cultures--a blend of many different cultures--and as globalization continues, so too will the displacement of local cultures by a single global culture. I have by no means said that this has already happened, merely that it's been in the process for a very long time. I'm unsure as to why people find this a difficult concept?


Nowhere is this more apparent than in language. Language can often be a reflection of culture (among other things). We see that although some languages have died off and some have become dominant, there is nothing remotely close to a lack of linguistic diversity. There is exchange and influence from other languages (new words are added directly from another tongue), but there is a great amount of diversity and identity. Culture is the same IMO.


Do you realize how many languages were spoken in Europe before the Roman Empire? Do you realize that most languages in Europe are now of two varieties, latin-based or germanic (or a blending of the two--!)?

Separate cultures (and languages) thrive in isolation, and this is exactly what happened after the fall (or rather the shift in location) of Rome. However, throughout all of history, separate cultures have never thrived in an interconnected world. Wherever cultures run into one another, you have intermixing until they become one general culture. Sometimes, there's resistance by the ruling class of one culture against the other culture--in fact, you'll see this in the United States today--but as they would say in Star Trek (which if you know the quote, you should realize how hegemonic our cultures have become): resistance is futile.

I find it very odd that people don't like the idea of a global culture, or want to fight against it. Until the world over has roughly the same values, mores and standards, we will always fight against one another instead of live in harmony. It's the only way any form of global solidarity can ever emerge.


Capitalism does rape and abuse cultures for profit, yes, but that is another matter. Is Taco Bell really Mexican food? Not really. It may affect culture in some areas, but corporatism does not go much deeper.


Capitalism is doing exactly what it should be doing, from a marxist standpoint. We can whine about it all we want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a normal and mostly inevitable process. It happened long before capitalism, and will continue within the confines of capitalism and beyond until we all have the same standard values. I'm saying here that capitalism simply accelerates the process, just like it accelerates the progress of technological evolution. A constant revolution in the means of production becomes a constant revolution in the material circumstances becomes a constant revolution in culture and so on.


Yes, those specific elements should not be respected. However, we should not condemn an entire culture for some reactionary elements, as those aspects must be changed for the better.

And once again, I've not said that the entirety of a culture should be discarded or accepted. I've been saying that multiculturalism often conflicts with even mildly progressive ideas, and as such is not a very good policy for judgment. If there are good aspects of a culture, then sure: accept them. But don't accept the culture as a whole--whether it be your own culture or one foreign to you--because cultures as a whole today are not progressive.

Accept what's good, reject what's bad--and whaddyaknow, when enough people do this, suddenly a decent culture emerges worldwide.

manic expression
18th November 2006, 18:14
Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2006 05:42 am
If you're a materialist, then you recognize that material circumstances dictate all human behavior. I'm not saying it's a simple equation--in fact, it's probably far too complex to really dissect without knowing the exact circumstances at any given point in human history--but I am saying that it dictates culture and politics.

Culture didn't appear out of thin air, no matter how much any of us would have liked it to do so. Different cultures arose differently precisely because the material circumstances that dictated their behaviors were different. Incans didn't have hundreds of corn dishes because they just loved corn soooooo much; they had so many dishes because it was the material world in which they found themselves. The same goes for any aspect of culture: it might not be as obvious in some respects, especially if the material circumstances that bore one aspect of a given culture have changed. We don't spontaneously make up our culture.

And yes, a culture and its political institutions can indeed affect the material circumstances; if I didn't know that already, I wouldn't call myself a communist. It's exactly what we're all betting on.

I agree. With many aspects of society, material circumstances are indeed the influential and dictating forces. At the very least, people reflect their surroundings in their culture.


Culture is an integration of many weaving factors; you can't change one without changing the whole. In fact, I don't think *we* can change them at all, at least by our own will. The change of culture is a natural process, and one that is nigh impossible to dictate by decree or force. Anyone with an inkling of knowledge about world history should know this by now.

I'm not so sure. Japanese culture is still Japanese culture without people impaling themselves in the stomach with swords; widows don't immolate themselves anymore, but Indian culture is quite intact; the fact that girls don't have their feet mutilated doesn't mean Chinese culture is changed. Those examples were all instances where people (often within the culture) changed (some of) the unacceptable aspects of the culture. As another example, activists have replaced FGM with a symbolic ritual (which does nothing to the girl). Making a culture better through eradication of inexplicable aspects is a natural process.


Define "ignorant to them." Ignorant to what? Wife beatings? Genital mutilation? Slavery, by wages or otherwise? Belief in tooth fairies? Shooting your neighbors? Clubbing visitors on the head?

I'm quite aware of the reactionary practices of many cultures, and I'm quite aware of progressive aspects of many different cultures as well. The problem, however, is that the term "multiculturalism" implies a b lanket acceptance of cultural practices, however abhorrent those practices may be. Our goal should not be to accept existing cultures; our goal should be to integrate the good or neutral aspects into a culture that is acceptable.

If one does not understand something, one can scarcely change it. Therefore, it is important for people to understand why something is in order to make it different. Why is it that this people clubs visitors? If we know the answer, we can do something about it; if we don't, we'll end up clubbing them over the head.

"Multiculturalism" is a very blanket term. However, this simply means we need to be careful about the application of the idea. I don't disagree with your definition, but I think the goal is to accept cultures while doing away with the reactionary aspects of them (IMO, the culture stays the same, while the reactionary aspects are ended).


I will not accept the machismo of many latin american cultures, even though I've no problem with anyone that comes from a hispanic culture. If they shed the reactionary aspects of that given culture, then culture really doesn't matter to me. But for the most part, at this given point in human history, a great many people should be able to transcend the reactionary elements into which they are born, and if they don't I refuse to accept them in the name of multiculturalism.

Yes, I very much agree. The one thing here is that it's hard to hold people who have very little education and very little money and resources accountable. Of course they are at fault for perpetuating these ills, but as you said, material circumstances do impact this. At any rate, machismo (along with racism) must be ended, which will only improve Latin American culture.


Nor did I claim it cheapened any culture (nor was I really talking about taco bell, but that's another matter). Yes, sometimes it is superficial; but would you call a derivation of marxism by an African tribe "superficial?" Of course you wouldn't, and it's no different with food. The food from one culture is prepared under the guise of another culture, and it really creates an entirely different product altogether.

Can people eat something without their culture taking it on? It can be culturally adapted, as with potatos and Ireland, but this is not always the case.


If by "multiculturalism" you mean that I should accept the cooking practices of chileans, then sure, I agree full-heartedly. I see no reason why those practices shouldn't be accepted. But if you mean I should accept the political authoritarianism that has plagued Russia's people for a thousand years and is deeply entrenched in their culture, then no: I will not accept that part of their culture. Peter the great was just as much a bastard as Stalin, and I'm not going to encourage that trend.

The first example cited is a cultural aspect which is not reactionary. The second is reactionary, and so that is one major difference. Also, one can accept Russian culture while objecting to the authoritarian mindset. More importantly, someone can be a part of Russian culture while being anti-authoritarian, and since such a position does not isolate them from the culture, the culture is not inherently authoritarian. In the same way, an American who doesn't like hotdogs and baseball isn't automatically separated from "American culture".


Yes, you will; and if you look at the history of that area over the past few hundreds of years, you'll see that the local culture is slowly displaced and taken over by an emergent trans-culture. I never once said that cultures do not exist today--it's foolish to suggest as such. I'm saying that over the course of history, local cultures have been replaced with more encompassing cultures--a blend of many different cultures--and as globalization continues, so too will the displacement of local cultures by a single global culture. I have by no means said that this has already happened, merely that it's been in the process for a very long time. I'm unsure as to why people find this a difficult concept?

While there is an emergence of trans-cultures, the fact of the matter is that regional differences remain. Furthermore, divergent development of culture also occurs. I think these instances are just as important. For example, Persian culture has never merged with Indian culture, but the two regions have always been exchanging cultural aspects (at least Persia and Northern India). Simply look at all the different strains of Islam, they adapted a big part of Arabian "culture", but they all developed different forms of it. I do think this indicates that there will be no one "global culture", but the exchange of many different cultures and new influences.


Do you realize how many languages were spoken in Europe before the Roman Empire? Do you realize that most languages in Europe are now of two varieties, latin-based or germanic (or a blending of the two--!)?

What about before that? Most were Celtic, Germanic (with some Greek and Latin in the south) or a mix of the two. However, this doesn't mean that there wasn't diversity in language. Likewise, that most languages fall under two/three catagories doesn't mean they aren't diverse. If you doubt this, look at India or China, where even though they have been politically unified, a great amount of linguistic diversity exists and will continue to exist (a common tongue does not negate diversity).


Separate cultures (and languages) thrive in isolation, and this is exactly what happened after the fall (or rather the shift in location) of Rome. However, throughout all of history, separate cultures have never thrived in an interconnected world. Wherever cultures run into one another, you have intermixing until they become one general culture. Sometimes, there's resistance by the ruling class of one culture against the other culture--in fact, you'll see this in the United States today--but as they would say in Star Trek (which if you know the quote, you should realize how hegemonic our cultures have become): resistance is futile.

Europe has opened up to their cultures as well as others, and yet Europe is still very diverse in many ways. That's not to say they haven't influenced one another, but there isn't an all-encompasing "European culture" (far from it), even with the EU and the like. In an age of globalization, it isn't always guaranteed or easy to hold onto culture, but it is beyond important.


I find it very odd that people don't like the idea of a global culture, or want to fight against it. Until the world over has roughly the same values, mores and standards, we will always fight against one another instead of live in harmony. It's the only way any form of global solidarity can ever emerge.

A.) Diverse peoples can, have and will live in harmony.
B.) Diversity does not hinder solidarity.
C.) Sterilization is worse than infrequent conflict (IMO).
D.) In diversity, there is strength (populations evolve through diversity).


Capitalism is doing exactly what it should be doing, from a marxist standpoint. We can whine about it all we want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a normal and mostly inevitable process. It happened long before capitalism, and will continue within the confines of capitalism and beyond until we all have the same standard values. I'm saying here that capitalism simply accelerates the process, just like it accelerates the progress of technological evolution. A constant revolution in the means of production becomes a constant revolution in the material circumstances becomes a constant revolution in culture and so on.

I don't agree. Communism should not be homogenous (culturally). Diversity is an advantage, not something to do away with eagerly. Justice is cherished in every culture, we don't need common values to have this. Plus, I don't think I need to go over the theme (or every individual story) of standing up against oppression and for justice that exists in practically every culture, so common values are there already.

That's my opinion.


And once again, I've not said that the entirety of a culture should be discarded or accepted. I've been saying that multiculturalism often conflicts with even mildly progressive ideas, and as such is not a very good policy for judgment. If there are good aspects of a culture, then sure: accept them. But don't accept the culture as a whole--whether it be your own culture or one foreign to you--because cultures as a whole today are not progressive.

Accept what's good, reject what's bad--and whaddyaknow, when enough people do this, suddenly a decent culture emerges worldwide.

I agree with you (for the most part), although I think that when you do this, you get more diversity as more cultures are accepted. That, however, is ultimately a minor point.

Airbag
18th November 2006, 19:14
IMO, diverse cultures enrich and improve a society.

What basis is there to that? Are you oblivious to the countless separatist and sectarian conflicts around the globe throughout history? If multiculturalism was paradise like you insinuate, then clearly sectarian conflicts would not exist. Diversity is precisely the reason why there has been struggle for independence throughout the last century.


D.) In diversity, there is strength (populations evolve through diversity).

In "diversity", there is ethnic fragmentation and sectarian conflict. Diversity hinders proletarian solidarity. Only when there is ethnic homogenity in a given country can there be working-class solidarity. There can solidarity between the working class in two ethnic homogenous countries, but there can never be such between the working class in a multi-cultural society.


You're eating tacos in sweden, potatoes and corn in Ireland, dumplings in mexico and staple chinese diets in alaska. You're watching Japanese animation in Pennsylvania and Chuck Norris movies in Korea. We're all reading the same things (at least those that have access) and watching the same things (ditto), with local variations perhaps, and we're all partaking in the same global arena of ideas.

That does not apply. I specifically reject customs and habits of foreign origin on the basis of anti-globalization. I reject to eat tacos on the basis of their origin from Mexico. I would only eat tacos if I were on Mexican soil.