Pierre Elliot Trudeau - For or against?

[El Barbudo]

I've seen Felicia's avatar... The picture of Pierre Elliot Trudeau. How can you like this guy? On October 1970, he lauched the army in Montreal, arresting anybody who was leftist because these people could be terrorists... So many artists were arrested, many members of groups like Parti Québécois, Quebec's Communist Party, etc. You think he's great enough to use his avatar? Let me know.

Vive le Québec Libre!
Vive l'indépendence!
Vive le FLQ!
Vive les Patriotes!

[Pete]

Trudeau was just barely leftist. He made Canada the only country, other than N. Korea, to have made private health care illegal. He funded the Sandinistas, reformed education and healthcare, only got involved in the FLQ crisis because the mayor of Montreal asked him, although he did say "Just watch me." My parents where living in Montreal then.

I am one of those pro trudeau people. He was our greatest prime minister. Don't doubt that. He wasn't even an alcoholic! Lol. The tradition of Canadian politics...

[Felicia]

heh, Well, as a young man, Trudeau was very much a "rebel", publishing a news paper and so on. In essence he was a leftist, maybe not as far left as many of us, but still left of center. I've never heard of this incident in 1970. I'll read up about it............ But if they were suspected of being 'terrorists" so what if some were leftists? I doubt that leftists were targeted in specific.

[Uhuru na Umoja]

I don't think the man was a saint, but still he is the kind of character that gives a country a name. Without him Canada would have been far less politically important. He also made a number of important changes which created a more socialist state, and we still benefit from this. I can't really pass judgement about is actions in Quebec seeing as I don't know anyone who was there at the time. From what I have heard, I think it was probably his greatest mistake, but we should not crusify him for that alone.

[hazard]

PET was canadas finest PM

his suppression of the FLQ was an extremely LW move
the FLQ was not a "leftist" movement
it was funded and inspired by RW francophone capitalists
PET move was lw in repressing a rw rebellion

[Pete]

I don't believe the FLQ was a mistake. They did hold hostage 2 influential members of the community, and the mayor of Montreal, and the Primier of Quebec, both asked for his help. He is responsible to these people. While he definityl was not as far left as many people here, he did not do wrong in the FLQ Crisis. If he had acted against the wishes of the PoQ and MoM then it would be different, but he was asked to do so. The War Measures Act, in my opinion, should be scrapped if it hasn't been already!

[El Barbudo]

FLQ was a leftist movement! Its leaders were Charles Gagnon and Pierre Valières, and both were from Communist Party! *Many felquists were communists, and FLQ's right wing was made of social-democrats.

I don't understand why people call them ''terrorists'' cause they did the same shit as Castro on July 1953: attacking caserns, stealing guns...

They wanted to end British Imperialism, cause in the 60s, Englishs had the economic power in Quebec, when the french people, about 90% of the populations, were workers, proletarians.

If u want, i'll put FLQ's manifest on the board, and you'll see these guys were communists.

Finally, remember that the felquists who were hosting Cross escaped to Cuba after liberating Cross...

[El Barbudo]

Also, what would do a leftist in Liberal Party???

[Pete]

the liberal party was left of centre then, and the NDP was truly socialist. Is this not a thread for politics?

[MEXCAN]

1970
FLQ Manifesto
[issued by the Front de Libération du Quebec (Quebec Liberation Front); read over CBC/Radio-Canada Oct. 8, 1970 as a condition for the release of kidnapped British trade official James Cross]

The people in the Front de Liberation du Québec are neither Messiahs nor modern-day Robin Hoods. They are a group of Quebec workers who have decided to do everything they can to assure that the people of Quebec take their destiny into their own hands, once and for all.

The Front de Libération du Québec wants total independence for Quebeckers; it wants to see them united in a free society, a society purged for good of its gang of rapacious sharks, the big bosses who dish out patronage and their henchmen, who have turned Quebec into a private preserve of cheap labour and unscrupulous exploitation.

The Front de Libération du Québec is not an aggressive movement, but a response to the aggression organized by high finance through its puppets, the federal and provincial governments (the Brinks farce, Bill 69, the electoral map, the so-called "social progress" [sic] tax, the Power Corporation, medical insurance - for the doctors, the guys at Lapalme...)

The Front de Libération du Québec finances itself - through voluntary (sic) taxes levied on the enterprises that exploit the workers (banks, finance companies, etc....).

"The money powers of the status quo, the majority of the traditional tutors of our people, have obtained from the voters the reaction they hoped for, a step backwards rather than the changes we have worked for as never before, the changes we will continue to work for." (René Lévesque, April 29, 1970).

Once, we believed it worthwhile to channel our energy and our impatience, in the apt words of René Lévesque, into the Parti Québécois, but the Liberal victory shows that what is called democracy in Quebec has always been, and still is, nothing but the "democracy" of the rich. In this sense the victory of the Liberal party is in fact nothing but the victory of the Simard-Cotroni election- fixers. Consequently, we wash our hands of the British parliamentary system; the Front de Libération du Québec will never let itself be distracted by the electoral crumbs that the Anglo-Saxon capitalists toss into the Quebec barnyard every four years. Many Quebeckers have realized the truth and are ready to take action. In the coming year Bourassa is going to get what's coming to him: 100,000 revolutionary workers, armed and organized!

Yes, there are reasons for the Liberal victory. Yes, there are reasons for poverty, unemployment, slums, for the fact that you, Mr. Bergeron of Visitation Street, and you too, Mr. Legendre of Ville de Laval, who make F10,000 a year, do not feel free in our country, Quebec.

Yes, there are reasons, the guys who work for Lord know them, and so do the fishermen of the Gash, the workers on the North Shore; the miners who work for Iron Ore, for Québec Cartier Mining, for Noranda know these reasons too. The honest workingmen at Cabano, the guys they tried to screw still one more time, they know lots of reasons.

Yes, there are reasons why you, Mr. Tremblay of Panet Street and you, Mr. Cloutier who work in construction in St. Jérôme, can't afford "Golden Vessels" with all the jazzy music and the sharp decor, like Drapeau the aristocrat, the guy who was so concerned about slums that he had coloured billboards stuck up in front of them so that the rich tourists couldn't see us in our misery.

Yes, Madame Lemay of St. Hyacinthe, there art - reasons why you can't afford a little junket to Florida like the rotten judges and members of Parliament who travel on our money. The good workers at Vickers and at Davie Shipbuilding, the ones who were given no reason for being thrown out, know these reasons; so do the guys at Murdochville that were smashed only because they wanted to form a union, and whom the rotten judges forced to pay over two million dollars because they had wanted to exercise this elementary right. The guys of Murdochville are familiar with this justice; they know lots of reasons. Yes, there are reasons why you, Mr. Lachance of St. Marguerite Street, go drowning your despair, your bitterness, and your rage in Molson's horse piss. And you, the Lachance boy, with your marijuana cigarettes...

Yes, there are reasons why you, the welfare cases, are kept from generation to generation on public assistance. There are lots of reasons, the workers for Domtar at Windsor and East Angus know them; the workers for Squibb and Ayers, for the Quebec Liquor Commission and for Seven-up and for Victoria Precision, and the blue collar workers of Laval and of Montreal and the guys at Lapalme know lots of reasons.

The workers at Dupont of Canada know some reasons too, even if they will soon be able to express them only in English (thus assimilated, they will swell the number of New Quebeckers, the immigrants who are the darlings of Bill 69).

These reasons ought to have been understood by the policemen of Montreal, the system's muscle; they ought to have realized that we live in a terrorized society, because without their force and their violence, everything fell apart on October 7.

We've had enough of a Canadian federalism which penalizes the dairy farmers of Quebec to satisfy the requirements of the Anglo-Saxons of the Commonwealth; which keeps the honest taxi drivers of Montreal in a state of semi-slavery by shamefully protecting the exclusive monopoly of the nauseating Murray Hill, and its owner - the murderer Charles Hershorn and his son Paul who, the night of October 7, repeatedly tore a .22 rifle out of the hands of his employees to fire on the taxi drivers and thereby mortally wounded Corporal Dumas, killed as a demonstrator. Canadian federalism pursues a reckless import policy, thereby throwing out of work the people who earn low wages in the textile and shoe industries, the most downtrodden people in Quebec, and all to line the pockets of a handful of filthy "money-makers" in Cadillacs. We are fed up with a federalism which classes the Quebec nation among the ethnic minorities of Canada.

We, and more and more Quebeckers too, have had it with a government of pussy-footers who perform a hundred and one tricks to charm the American millionaires, begging them to come and invest in Quebec, the Beautiful Province where thousands of square miles of forests full of game and of lakes full of fish are the exclusive property of these all-powerful lords of the twentieth century. We are sick of a government in the hands of a hypocrite like Bourassa who depends on Brinks armoured trucks, an authentic symbol of the foreign occupation of Quebec, to keep the poor Quebec "natives" fearful of that poverty and unemployment to which we are so accustomed.

We are fed up with the taxes we pay that Ottawa's agent in Quebec would give to the English-speaking bosses as an "incentive" for them to speak French, to negotiate in French. Repeat after me: "Cheap labour is main d'oeuvre à bon marché in French."

We have had enough of promises of work and of prosperity, when in fact we will always be the diligent servants and bootlickers of the big shots, as long as there is a Westmount, a Town of Mount Royal, a Hampstead, an Outremont, all these veritable fortresses of the high finance of St. James Street and Wall Street; we will be slaves until Quebeckers, all of us, have used every means, including dynamite and guns, to drive out these big bosses of the economy and of politics, who will stoop to any action however base, the better to screw us.

We live in a society of terrorized slaves, terrorized by the big bosses, Steinberg, Clark, Bronfman, Smith, Neopole, Timmins, Geoffrion, J.L. Lévesque, Hershorn, Thompson, Nesbitt, Desmarais, Kierans (next to these, Rémi Popol the Nightstick, Drapeau the Dog, the Simards' Simple Simon and Trudeau the Pansy are peanuts!).

We are terrorized by the Roman Capitalist Church, though this is less and less true today (who owns the square where the Stock Exchange was built?); terrorized by the payments owing to Household Finance, by the advertising of the grand masters of consumption, Eaton's, Simpson's, Morgan's, Steinberg's, General Motors - terrorized by those exclusive clubs of science and culture, the universities, and by their boss-directors Gaudry and Dorais, and by the vice-boss Robert Shaw.

There are more and more of us who know and suffer under this terrorist society, and the day is coming when all the Westmounts of Quebec will disappear from the map.

Workers in industry, in mines and in the forests! Workers in the service industries, teachers, students and unemployed! Take what belongs to you, your jobs, your determination and your freedom. And you, the workers at General Electric, you make your factories run; you are the only ones able to produce; without you, General Electric is nothing!

Workers of Quebec, begin from this day forward to take back what is yours; take yourselves what belongs to you. Only you know your factories, your machines, your hotels, your universities, your unions; do not wait for some organization to produce a miracle.

Make your revolution yourselves in your neighbourhoods, in your places of work. If you don't do it yourselves, other usurpers, technocrats or someone else, will replace the handful of cigar-smokers we know today and everything will have to be done all over again. Only you are capable of building a free society.

We must struggle not individually but together, till victory is obtained, with every means at our disposal, like the Patriots of 1897-1898 (those whom Our Holy Mother Church hastened to excommunicate, the better to sell out to British interests).

In the four corners of Quebec, may those who have been disdainfully called lousy Frenchmen and alcoholics begin a vigorous battle against those who have muzzled liberty and justice; may they put out of commission all the professional holdup artists and swindlers: bankers, businessmen, judges and corrupt political wheeler-dealers....

We are Quebec workers and we are prepared to go all the way. With the help of the entire population, we want to replace this society of slaves by a free society, operating by itself and for itself, a society open on the world. Our struggle can only be victorious. A people that has awakened cannot long be kept in misery and contempt.

Long live Free Quebec!
Long live our comrades the political prisoners!
Long live the Quebec Revolution!
Long live the Front de Liberation do Quebec!

***

Source: "The FLQ Manifesto," Marcel Rioux, Quebec in Question (1971), tr. James Boake

http://www.ola.bc.ca/online/cf/documents/1...QManifesto.html (http://www.ola.bc.ca/online/cf/documents/1970FLQManifesto.html)

[Pete]

#Moderation Mode

This has turned to a political debate about the FLQ.

Moved here (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=26&topic=309)

[El Barbudo]

So??? Is Trudeau a real leftist or not? Lol...

[Felicia]

Quote: from El Barbudo on 6:56 pm on April 10, 2003
So??? Is Trudeau a real leftist or not? Lol...
I think so

I like that he tried to canoe to cuba from florida, but got arrested by the US because he was suspected of smuggling ..... I'm pretty sure, or my imagination is playing with me again. :)

[Pete]

During the 1968 campaign my mom remembers seeing him. Lol. Trudeau got in on the female vote! Ya!

[Camarade du Che]

I live in Quebec and I know a lot about FLQ. Everything El Barbudo said is true.


felicia: "But if they were suspected of being 'terrorists" so what if some were leftists? I doubt that leftists were targeted in specific."

The FLQ was a leftist movement. The government used that to arrest any leftist they didn't like especially people from "le Parti Québécois" who wanted Quebec's independancy but in a peaceful way. FLQ was not really terrorist: they put bombs in canadian symbols (mail boxes, businesses, etc.) but they always made sure that nobody would get killed.


hazard *"his suppression of the FLQ was an extremely LW move
the FLQ was not a "leftist" movement
it was funded and inspired by RW francophone capitalists
PET move was lw in repressing a rw rebellion "

This is completely false.


CrazyPete *"I don't believe the FLQ was a mistake. They did hold hostage 2 influential members of the community, and the mayor of Montreal, and the Primier of Quebec, both asked for his help."

They held hostage of 2 persons because the government wasn't listening to them. The Primier of Québec was not fit for the situation.



As for Trudeau, I think he was a good Prime Minister for the English-Canadien and I think that he was a kind of leftist before 1965 and he became more rightist after that (to the point where he was was attacking syndicates). But I am a French-Canadian (Québécois), and I completely dislike him because of what he did against French-Canadien (the FLQ crisis is just one example of what he did).

[Pete]

I know that all of the postDupies (is that is name? spelt horribly wrong?) primeirs that where not PQ, and some that where, did very very bad for Quebec. But they did ask for Trudeau's help.

He pissed off the postal workers around the busy season.

Yet he also gave us national public healthcare and offical bilingualism.

[Camarade du Che]

"postDupies (is that is name? spelt horribly wrong?) "

You're probably talking about Duplessis.


"I know that all of the postDupies (is that is name? spelt horribly wrong?) primeirs that where not PQ, and some that where, did very very bad for Quebec. But they did ask for Trudeau's help."

What I meant is that Québec's Primeir (Bourrassa) had only been there for a few months so he wasn't ready for a "crisis". But you're right that he asked Trudeau.


"Yet he also gave us national public healthcare and offical bilingualism."

Yes, but the official bilingualism was his alternative to the separation of Québec and it didn't work (a study showed that the french language is in danger in Canada).

[Pete]

Most people would prefer to see Quebec go than to be forced into learning French. THat is truth.

Yes Duplessis is his name. What was his parties name again? What is your view point about him?

I think the only governmnent that is good for Quebec is the PQ or ADQ. I don't think that the Liberals can rule there.

[Camarade du Che]

"Yes Duplessis is his name. What was his parties name again? What is your view point about him?"

He was in the "Union Nationale". He did more bad things than good things: in our history, we call this era the Great Darkness (la Grande Noirceur). He promoted religion and work on the farms. He made some good things like the protection of our nationalism (autonomy of the province and our flag), imposition tax on revenues, electrification of the suburbs, a balanced budget for 15 years, construction of roads, schools and hospitals and an economic prosperity. On the other hand, he didn't want the state to be implicated economically or socially, he made a law that prohibited communist activities, he was against syndicates, he pratically gave our natural ressources to stranger investors, he used corruption to stay in power, he gave too much power to religion (in return they helped him to stay in power by saying/ordering to the people to vote for him) and he was against artists and intellectuals. He was almost a dictator and the name Great Darkness is really earned, but at least he did a few good things.


"I think the only governmnent that is good for Quebec is the PQ or ADQ. I don't think that the Liberals can rule there."

ADQ would be a disaster. They are more rightist than the Liberals: they want a 2 speeds health system, they want a unique imposition rate at 16% and other rightist measures. Also, they have no experience. It would be really surprising if they won the elections (wich will happen this monday). Unfortunately, the Liberals have the lead in the surveys, but the PQ is really near. PQ still have good chances because the Liberals' votes are concentrated in Montreal and our elections' system is based on the number of persons elected and not the total number of votes. I will vote for PQ because they are the only leftist party available in my region, but I really hope that UFP, wich is an union of all the other leftist parties, will have a few elected members.

[Pete]

PQ lost. Liberal Majority :( Damn I hate the liberals. BTW what happened to the PC, CA and the NDP in in Quebec?

[Camarade du Che]

"PQ lost. Liberal Majority Damn I hate the liberals."

I'm really disappointed. The damned ADQ took 20% of the votes, but they took it from the french votes wich are usually PQ. And no UFP members were elected. I'm really disappointed.

"BTW what happened to the PC, CA and the NDP in in Quebec?"

The NDP became the PDS (socialist democracy party) and the PDS is now in the UFP. The Communist Party is also in the UFP. I don't know what CA is.

[Pete]

I heard that the PC became the PQ but I doubt that. And I don't like Charest. Errr. Stupid former-clownish guy! He used to be the Federal PC leader...

[Camarade du Che]

"I heard that the PC became the PQ but I doubt that."

The PQ was an union of the MSA (sovereignty-association movement) and the RIN (assembly for the national independancy).


"And I don't like Charest. Errr. Stupid former-clownish guy! He used to be the Federal PC leader..."

I wouldn't say that I hate the man, but I really hate his political views. He wanted to be Canada's Prime Minister and now he's Québec's Prime Minister, find the error.

[El Barbudo]

Salut Camarade du Che!
Je suis content de voir des Québécois dans la communauté!

About UFP (Union of Progressists Forces), it's made of NPD-Quebec, Communist Party of Quebec and PDS.

I'm pretty sad about PQ being pushed away of the governement, but remember its been there 9 years, and people often change of governement after 8-9 years. *UFP almost had 1 guy elected in Montreal, it would have been great. *But there was also a Marxist-Leninist Party, who got 0.7% of the votes. *UFP is a bourgeois-leftist party. *Dont be fooled by this guys... *They are better than PQ, PLQ or ADQ, but they wont do better shit. *Leftists should vote M-L Party. *Next time, I'll try to get elected for PML in Crémazie (Montreal).

[Camarade du Che]

"Je suis content de voir des Québécois dans la communauté!"

Hey, salut. Moi aussi je suis content de voir que je ne suis pas le seul Québécois ici.


"I'm pretty sad about PQ being pushed away of the governement, but remember its been there 9 years, and people often change of governement after 8-9 years."

Yeah, it didn't happen since Duplessis. I thought about it and it might not be that bad that the Liberals won. I mean the Liberals will probably screw up like they did with the Lac Meech. So maybe after 4 bad Liberal years, the PQ will come back stronger. That's the only positive thing I can see.


"UFP almost had 1 guy elected in Montreal, it would have been great. *But there was also a Marxist-Leninist Party, who got 0.7% of the votes. *UFP is a bourgeois-leftist party. *Dont be fooled by this guys... *They are better than PQ, PLQ or ADQ, but they wont do better shit. *Leftists should vote M-L Party. Next time, I'll try to get elected for PML in Crémazie (Montreal)."

You're probably right, but what is great is that the left didn't fight against each other, so a leftist would have voted for UFP or PML Party depending of where he lives. I hope they will change the elections system, so we could be represented. It's great that you will try to get elected. I would have liked to help a party, but I live in Rivière-du-Loup and there was not a real leftist party.

[El Barbudo]

Ça doit pas être facile d'être représenté par Dumont! *Mais sinon, tu peux toujours te présenter comme Indépendant pis après t'associer à un mouvement quelconque, selon tes idéaux...

[Camarade du Che]

Tu as raison, c'est pas facile d'être représenté par Dumont. Pour ce qui est de me présenter, je n'ai jamais vraiment pensé à ça et je doute que je sois le genre de personne pour faire ça: je serais plutôt un militant. Mais je vais y réfléchir et 4 ans c'est quand même assez long pour changer d'idée.

[El Barbudo]

Ça vaut la peine d'essayer... :)

[Nic8]

Salut! Je suis Quebecois aussi, mais je suis anglo.

The only reason the Duplessi was in for longer then 8 or 9 years was because he was a fascist. He rearranged the ridings so that his strong holds, religious farming communities, had much smaller ridings then unsuportive ridings, mostly urban. Farmers had much more power then anyone else. And he bought the farmers support by building roads and bringing them power (which isn't really a bad thing). He also had his people go to bars to buy drunk people drinks if they voted for him.

Back to the original point, Trudeau was an idiot. He put our country millions of dollars into debt. He sold out the farms to the corporations. What he did with the FLQ was absolutly fascist. The RCMP were already hot on the tails of the FLQ anways. The FLQ were not terrorists. The only people they kidnapped were political figures.

And the FLQ was very left wing. It was Trudeau who was the right winger that stamped out a left wing rebellion, not the other way around. Read the FLQ manifesto, it is communist. There was no french capitalists at that time, they were all english. This is why, even as an english person, I strongly support the FLQ and seperation.

Did anyone else find the permanent marker candidate name on the UFP signs sort of funny? On a serious note,
the Marxist-Leninists and the UFP were both on the ballot here. And its really to bad that the liberals won, I really liked most of the PQ ideas, like the four day work week for people with kids under 12.

Vive le Quebec Libre!

[El Barbudo]

pretty glad to see a separatist anglophone... Most anglo are pro-canada, but at least, some still can be quebecers and nationalists...

[Nic8]

I'm proud to be from Quebec. I was born here. I was raised here. I have lived here my whole life. I go to school here. I think I'm just as much a Quebecer as any francophone.

[Camarade du Che]

"I think I'm just as much a Quebecer as any francophone."

You are.

[Pete]

I come from a family of Quebecers, as my mom's family has been allophones (I think that is the right term) for atleast 150 years, and my dad was raised in Montreal. I have family there, but tehy are extremely federalistic.

[FabFabian]

Ok...I come in here looking for the Trudeau posts and it has evolved into a pro PQ fest. They had their time and they were past their sell by date. What happened to the ADQ? Thank goodness the voters didn't fall for all that flat tax crap. That Mario Dumont is nothing but a mini me of old Pegleg (Bouchard mark 2). A class A1 opportunist. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Dumont part of the separatist faction in the last referendum?

I will never be able to grasp the concept of Quebec Nationalism. It is possible that one reason is that I live in the only region of Canada whose people consider themselves Canadians. I think it just reeks of insecurity. Anyway, every region of the this country is individual and distinct and Quebec doesn't have the corner market on distinctiveness. Hell, people in Toronto are not one homogenous mass of thought. I remember a time when the governor/mayor? in the Catalan region of Spain visited Bouchard and questioned his complaints of oppression. He basically told him that the Quebecois have more latitude than in the Catalan do in Spain and would give his eye teeth to have just a small bit of autonomy.

Maybe Quebec and Quebeckers are not so distinct as we may think. They ***** about the slightest thing. How very Canadian!!! :P

[Nic8]

Do any of us participating in this "pro PQ fest" actually support the PQ?