Unusual action possibly taking place...

[lithium]

Hey there,

I'm looking for ideas and tips and advice. I live in a 'rural' town in Ireland that unfortunately experiences a lot of crime. My best friend's car was stolen a couple of months back, and one of my close friends had his home broken into and his family beaten up (the attackers thought they owned a nearby shop and demanded the keys, but obviously my friend's family didn't have them). In the past couple of months my own home was also burgled... twice.

Apart from this, my town has to put up with other similar crimes, as well as boy racers who cause accidents almost every week - the few that I know have ahad their cars "totalled". Teenagers are pushing hard drugs on other kids...

Overall, people are afraid to leave their homes at night. Heck, even during the day sometimes (a while back a load of pensioners' homes were burgled while they attended mass). I'm not particularly afraid myself, but I can see what people in the town think; my home town, which I once thought was a beautiful spot, is now being overrun by actual criminals.

The obvious answer to this problem is that we need more policing. I know a lot of people won't agree with this. But those who are from Ireland, and especially rural towns in Ireland might see where I'm coming from.

The Garda Siochána station in my town has very limited opening hours. I've often gone over to get things stamped or whatever just to find it closed. I've already written to the Minister of Justice regarding this (and also referring to the problems mentioned above) and the response was basically "actually, we already give enough money to rural gardaí, so get over it already." They even had the nerve to say that some of the crimes I mentioned were not reported, even though I have the PULSE codes in my posession. According to the Department, the rural towns of Ireland were not going to get any more funding.

So, I know some of you are thing "why does he want more police???", but at the same time, I hope you can also see where I'm coming from in this problem. What I want in my town is a 24 hour garda station. This will stop fights and injuries in the middle of the night after the nightclubs close, it will allow people to attend the station extra-office hours, and most importantly, it will allow people to feel safe for once.

Enough waffling: there has been considerable media coverage over the need for such a garda station, and if that's what the people want in my town, I want to help get it. So far we're being ignored, but I'd like to hold a march/demonstration demanding that the gov gives more money to rural gardai. I feel it's a reasonable request - I don't want my family being attacked, I don't want my car being stolen, I don't want friends raped in the night just for the local shit to say "sorry not much we can do".

Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated. And sorry for dragging ot out <_<

[Connolly]

Hi Lithium&#33;

I used to live in central Dublin up until recently. In my experience I have seen community policing quite effective - as in Vigilanty* groups established from amongst the community.

My uncle was a victim of vigilanty activity, being both a dealer and addict of drugs (he paid the ultimate price too&#33;), he was forced to move house due to community organization, which, in this case, were right in their demands. The community, or many from it, knocked on his door giving him a deadline for which he had to move - if he didnt - he would have suffered dearly. These community threats worked wonders and he and his family (two children) relocated to Tallaght.

Also, during my experience in Dublin, and on my particular road (although I was too young to be involved) was vigilanty activity. A household involving a single parent and her son were met with vigilanty (aka. substantive democratic community action) groups picketing outside their house and doing roundabout marches around their block - involving the creation of banners with slogans. During their roundabout march of the block, others would join in seeing the cause. The son was accused of robbing houses from the community, including nextdoor neighbors. They also moved quickfast to a new location after the threats

This type of vigilanty activity was quite widespread years ago, and dealt with all sorts of community problems - although for some reason - it has died out pretty much, probably due to the destruction of community spirit from such economic success.

Other vigilanty activity I have heard about were members of the community would pull up in a van, and drag a suspected - or actual criminal - into the van and "do a job on them" - maybe a good hiding or threats - the exact details of this form of activity im not sure.

Also, remember the "Filthy Fifty" from Finglas in Dublin?........That drug pushing, car stealing, granny bashing thug gang that once were almost lawless. They are no longer in existence. From what I have heard, due to the IRA getting its head members and "kneecapping them up in the Dublin mountains".

Basically, what I am trying to say, is that more Gardai, or even longer police opening hours dont always solve everything&#33;&#33; - just look at Limerick - I mean - they must have an army of police patrolling that place now, or even Ballyfermot/Cherryorchard in Dublin as an example - where at one point the army were actually called in to police on Halloween&#33;&#33;&#33;

More garda policing, in my view, only serves to alienate the youth further from the gardai and the community.

The fact of the matter is - the best community policing can be achieved by the community itself, where with the present system of things, criminals are not afraid of the Gardai, they get off scott free and are virtually untouchable.

Community vigilanty activity should be considered in your case, as you seem to be a person capable of organising the community into action.

I also live in a small town where 24 hour policing is not available, and actually the police station dosnt even open on weekends. Crime is quite bad here. Commuters who park their car in the railway parking lot get them burnt out quite often, gangs regularly graffitii community facilities, librarys etc..

In my view, the most effective solution to the problems in my community is by organizing the community to combat anti-social behaviour through whatever means necessary. The advantages of community organization are far greater than having the state police force stepped up, and it has worked in the past.

I wish I had both the confidence and organizational ability to organize something like this - but I dont, and the community are too entrenched into accepting bourgeois state forces to do the job.

Keep in mind that vigilanty activity, ie. taking the law into your own hands (or the community&#39;s hands) is illegal, and it would take the hardliners of the community (those most affected, those with strong views) to carry out the job.

Hope that helps in some sort of way. :D

[apathy maybe]

lithium: I can see your problem and can understand why you think more police are needed in your town. As an anarchist I don&#39;t like the idea of police and encouraging them. But I see your point of view. If you cannot get more police or resources from the national government, then my advice would would two main streams.

The first is to organise "neighbourhood watch" schemes. Basically the people in a neighbourhood watch out for criminal activity in their local area and report it and as many details as possible to the police. If a person seems something suspicious, then they call the police. (Do you have a national emergency number in Ireland? Like in Australia, the USA and the UK? If so, ring that number rather then the local cops, especially if they are not there often.)

The second leads on from the first, but can be (but can also not be) quite dangerous. That is local enforcement of community standards. This can often lead to the type of vigilantly activity described by The RedBanner, people being harassed simply because they are different or unliked. However, if kept under control, it has the potential to reduce crime of one sort, but prevent the crime of the other sort (the random beatings of suspects for example).

I don&#39;t think you have liberal weapons laws in Ireland do you, this might make it harder to actually do what I am about to present legally. It makes it incredibly hard if you don&#39;t have citizens arrest powers.

Anyway, you have a group of people from a neighbourhood (say one or two from each house or more if there are more people can do this). This bigger group (hopefully about 20-30 people) will divided into groups of 4 or 5 who then each are given a night. Then each night the smaller group patrols and if shit happens, the neighbourhood watch (mentioned above) calls the local crew as well as the emergency number. The crew then moves to where ever the distirbance or what ever is, and arrests every one involved until the cops get there.

It could also work on the method of the volunteer fire fighters where I am. You have one person on the phone all night, then they call the people together if something happens.


It can be difficult to keep these groups becoming like those described by The RedBanner, vigilantly groups like that are not good, and can drive away productive members of the community.

[Janus]

I used to live in central Dublin up until recently. In my experience I have seen community policing quite effective - as in Vigilanty* groups established from amongst the community.
I agree with RedBanner, community policing is quite effective in helping to rid the streets of crime as well as an alternative to dealing with the bureaucratic and apathetic police.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The obvious answer to this problem is that we need more policing.

Obvious to who? The ruling class?

Crime is a product of material conditions. People that can&#39;t get a decent job commit "crimes" to feed themselves and their families. That&#39;s where most "crime" comes from. The answer isn&#39;t more protectors of the bourgeois order, it&#39;s to create condition in which crime can disappear.

Check this out for more. (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/fpm/page.php?164)

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 16, 2006 10:58 pm

The obvious answer to this problem is that we need more policing.

Obvious to who? The ruling class?

Crime is a product of material conditions. People that can&#39;t get a decent job commit "crimes" to feed themselves and their families. That&#39;s where most "crime" comes from. The answer isn&#39;t more protectors of the bourgeois order, it&#39;s to create condition in which crime can disappear.

Check this out for more. (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/fpm/page.php?164)
Everybody here knows that.

The thing is that "socialism" is not something that can happen in a few days, or maybe, something that may not happen at all; in some cases, people want short-term solutions.

[chimx]

yeah, no shit. i was sick of kids breaking into my car at night, busting out me and my neighbors wind shields and slashing our tires for months on end, so i called the police and told them to patrol our area more. Ooooo&#33; how bourgeois&#33;

[Connolly]

In some cases though, and especially here in Ireland, there are some things which the law simply cannot "crack down"on, or be able to give a communily satifactory result.

Its very diffcult to prosecute anti-social youths, catch and prosecute drug pushers and keep safe the community from the likes of paedophiles*.

Which reminds me of a successful vigilanty activity iv been told about, where a &#39;bloke&#39; I know (not very well mind you) who is involved very much in activism kicked in the door of a flat in Ballymun, along with members of the PIRA, and battered a well known community paedophile who got off scott free from the law. He didnt escape quick enough from the raid and was caught by the gardai and sentenced to three months in prison. Im not sure what happened to the others who carried out the raid. (the flats are tower blocks, and you can see why that might make it difficult to escape&#33;&#33;)

The point of this, was that the community asked for this assistance, and above all, the community know the local criminals and know the facts - unlike the court, who need this and that specific evidence. I suppose the raid was mostly successful apart from them/him being caught. (this was carried out in the 1980&#39;s - further reflecting the decline of the "vigies".)


It can be difficult to keep these groups becoming like those described by The RedBanner, vigilantly groups like that are not good, and can drive away productive members of the community.

Well I hope the examples I gave were of successful vigilanty activity?

There are different extremes to it though. A simple protest or picket outside a known community criminal is fairly harmless - and very embarrising to the victims.- and can involve all the community. Nothing much too it just community solidarity.

A raid is another extreme, and sometimes necessary when the law dosnt work to protect a community.

From my experience, I have never heard of an unsuccessful vigilanty activity. They have always been successful, and completely justified. Although one activity which was well published in the media was one in Britain, where three chaps battered a medical specialist for children because he had paedo in his professional title thinking he was a molester. Thats both funny and wrong :lol:. But that action was not democratic, the ones I described are - and are well needed in today&#39;s Ireland.

Ill say it again - a simple community picket, along with a few empty threats of "well burn you out" - is highly embarrising for the victim living in the community. Keep in mind that most anti-social, petty thug behaviour is carried out by youths - "and if mother found out" there&#39;d be all out murder. :lol:

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by The RedBanner+--> (The RedBanner)My uncle was a victim of vigilanty activity, being both a dealer and addict of drugs [/b]I hope it was not the addiction that got him moved on ...


Originally posted by The [email protected]
Also, during my experience in Dublin, and on my particular road (although I was too young to be involved) was vigilanty activity. A household involving a single parent and her son were met with vigilanty (aka. substantive democratic community action) groups picketing outside their house and doing roundabout marches around their block - involving the creation of banners with slogans. During their roundabout march of the block, others would join in seeing the cause. The son was accused of robbing houses from the community, including nextdoor neighbors. They also moved quickfast to a new location after the threatsThis is a problem, you see the word is accused. The son was accused of robbing houses, but the mother and son were targeted. To me it looks like a case of scapegoat, a single parent and a son, obviously up to no good immoral family they are.


The RedBanner
Other vigilanty activity I have heard about were members of the community would pull up in a van, and drag a suspected - or actual criminal - into the van and "do a job on them" - maybe a good hiding or threats - the exact details of this form of activity im not sure.There it is again. Suspected.


My problem with the sort of activity I have quoted here (well the first one not so much ...) is that it is suspected and accused people getting the shit. It is not people who are caught in the act of doing a crime, but people who are living their lives and are probably not well liked in the community (or by the vigilantly group). Single mother? Black? Youth? All potential targets for this sort of activity, even if the person has done fuck all.


What I proposed is not this sort of terrorism, but rather actual community policing. Patrols, arrests and so on.

With vigilantly activity it is always possible that it will degenerate into just a bunch of thugs on a power trip. While you may talk of democratic organising or whatever, did the single mother and her son get consulted? Did anyone actually ask them their point of view or story? I guess not, it would have been one person who started a rumour about them. And &#39;cause the mother was single, she is an easy target. Do you think it would have happened if she had a husband? One, it is perfectly possible the husband may have had a show of force, two if she wasn&#39;t single, there would not be any moral problems either.

Terrorism and abuse of power is just as easy at a local community level as it is at a state level.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Everybody here knows that.

No "everybody here" doesn&#39;t, or you wouldn&#39;t get people making posts saying "The obvious answer to this problem is that we need more policing."


The thing is that "socialism" is not something that can happen in a few days, or maybe, something that may not happen at all;

Defeatism is the first step to reformism... and reformism will NEVER lead to socialism, guaranteed.


in some cases, people want short-term solutions.

But it&#39;s not a "short-term solution." It can&#39;t be, because it isn&#39;t, and can&#39;t be a solution.

You can kill flies all day long, but unless you get rid of the material they breed in, they&#39;ll keep coming.


i called the police and told them to patrol our area more

Doesn&#39;t surprise me one bit.

[Connolly]

I hope it was not the addiction that got him moved on ...

No, it was his drug pushing that got people angry.


This is a problem, you see the word is accused. The son was accused of robbing houses, but the mother and son were targeted. To me it looks like a case of scapegoat, a single parent and a son, obviously up to no good immoral family they are.

I see what you mean, and my wording certainly dosnt help things. It had nothing to do with the fact that the mother was a single parent, nor that they were immoral. As i said, I was too young to participate in this particular community activity - so im not sure as to who organized it - but I do know the nature of my community and society.

People generally dont bother with others buisiness. People generally turn a blind eye to petty criminals. People generally call the gardai in the event of crime. People generally dont go looking for "scapegoats" as you call it, and they certainly dont just go pointing the finger at single mother parents - since they make up a substatial part of the community.

This particular action was very organized and was preplanned since posters and banners were created by the community.

I think your seeing such activity in the same light as medievil witchhunts with mass paranoia and no rational and logical basis for any justified action.

Society today however is much more sophisticated, and has been for quite some time. People honestly couldnt be arsed acting, and vigilanty activity is rare and only occurs when the community see local criminals get off scott free while they terrorise reaching a breaking point for the community.

This particular action was undertaken by about 60 - 70 individuals (from what I saw) and must have made up the best part of the "block" of houses with which the victim was located.

It was democratic and justified.

As I said - people wouldnt organize something to ths extent, participate to this extent - unless really necessary.

People do see things the way you do and ask questions about others actions the way you do.

They arnt just mindless individuals - they took part in it because they saw good reason too.


My problem with the sort of activity I have quoted here (well the first one not so much ...) is that it is suspected and accused people getting the shit. It is not people who are caught in the act of doing a crime, but people who are living their lives and are probably not well liked in the community (or by the vigilantly group). Single mother? Black? Youth? All potential targets for this sort of activity, even if the person has done fuck all.

Firstly, lithium asked his question in the context of the Irish community for which I live. The Irish are living in the 21st century and do not discriminate against single mothers and most people do frown on racism.

Secondly, again, as mentioned above - they are intelligent people. An organised community dont go mindlessly attacking people, but act rationally for the benifit of it. I havnt actually witnessed this form of activity occur, and it does sound quite brutal, but I do know and spoke to one person who once was being chased by "vigie van men" and he was genuinely scared. He was being chased for drug offences and was guilty of dealing them (although he didnt take them himself). He&#39;s guilty because 1) he told me they were chasing him for it, and 2) I knew him well enough to know what he was up to, his gang etc.

Wherever the vigilanties got their information from (cause they are usually concerned parents) - they were correct in chasing him. Whether he got caught I dont know.

Again, I stress - vigilanties are not mindless blood lusting terrorists - they act rationally, rarely and with good cause.


With vigilantly activity it is always possible that it will degenerate into just a bunch of thugs on a power trip.

Possible, but unlikely for the reasons mentioned above.


While you may talk of democratic organising or whatever, did the single mother and her son get consulted? Did anyone actually ask them their point of view or story?

In this form of activity the "angry mob" usually call the family or parents to the door and discuss the matter and give them a deadline to get out or cease their activity.


I guess not, it would have been one person who started a rumour about them.

Rumours alone dont provoke a community into action, especially when they arnt that "active" anyway.


Do you think it would have happened if she had a husband? One, it is perfectly possible the husband may have had a show of force, two if she wasn&#39;t single, there would not be any moral problems either.

Yes, as with my uncle in an example I gave. His family consited of Wife, him and his two children.

What sex they are dosnt matter when faced with an angry community of 60-70.

[apathy maybe]

I think your seeing such activity in the same light as medievil witchhunts with mass paranoia and no rational and logical basis for any justified action. Yup. There is so many chances for thuggery to take over in situations where you have citizens acting as a police force hunting out criminals. In fact, the citizens (or at least a segment of them) can become like the police, a new oppressing force. The instances you have described seem to me to illustrate the dangers of this sort of activity.

I know you think that the activities were justified and "democratic", and that the people had good cause and all. But what if they didn&#39;t? Once people get a taste for the power of picketing a person or family, they might continue doing so, or if that person or family moves, pick another person to picket.

You mention that they would have stopped if the person had of stopped the activity, but what if they did stop (if they ever actually had been doing that activity in the first place)? How would the vigilantes know?


I support people power and community policing, but I oppose sort of activity that can lead to problems such as I described.