Why Do We Keep Making Excuses

[ReD_ReBeL]

Im more hilighting modern socities , primerily the UK since it's where im from and where ive got personal experience from.
One of the key defences for the working class is because they 'lack education'. But in the UK, school is of no charge and students coming from a low income family(parents earn under 30,000) th student will be paid 30 pound a week EMA money which can be used as the student desires. Also students from a low income or single parent household get free school lunches.
Also many(not all) working class children/teenagers(including myself, when i was at school) tend to have a lazy attitude towards there school/homework which usualy ends in poor grades/exam results which finally makes it very difficult to get a decent(stable) paying job.
It is usually(from my experience) the working class students who fuck around at school try to act the class clown or Mr Hard Man .

my question is though..Why Is This?
and why do we tend to sympatize with the very people who "dig a hole for themselfs"?

I am not judging anyone or putting anyone down etc. It's just a question i ask myself.

btw im not a rich kid. im unemployed(currently) and live in a single parent working class household.

[Enragé]

:huh:

1. not all people are smart enough to follow certain classes, some people are just better at doing stuff, instead of thinking about it. Nothing wrong with that, but in this society those people end up at the bottom, through no fault of their own.

2. capitalism NEEDS an empoverished working class, its an inherent part of it, so even IF everyone was extremely smart and everyone did his/her homework perfectly even THEN there would still be an empoverished working class... the standards to would just be made higher.

3. the education system is focused on the "middle class"

4. what you are talking of is not "the working class", those are arrogant macho lazy *****es, which is often a phase (called "puberty"), and occurs all along the spectrum.

5. the environment of rich kids is more stimulating than the environment of the average working class kid.

6. if you're brought up to be a working stooge, looked upon like one, grew up in an environment where everyone expects no more of you, you generally tend to become one as well. Being determines consciousness.

[ReD_ReBeL]

3. the education system is focused on the "middle class"[QUOTE]
How this?

4. what you are talking of is not "the working class", those are arrogant macho lazy *****es, which is often a phase (called "puberty"), and occurs all along the spectrum.[QUOTE]

Yes you are very true. But the majority(in the UK, from ym experience) of these macho bully types seem to be working class 'chavs'

[Enragé]

so?

its not that we have to like all workers
its just that if you look at society we are the oppressed, and we should strive to free ourselves.

[ReD_ReBeL]

you never answerd my question of How is the education system focused on the middle class?

[which doctor]

You speak of the working-class like a zoologist speaks of a pack of gazelle on the African prairie. Oh well, here it goes.


One of the key defences for the working class is because they 'lack education'. But in the UK, school is of no charge and students coming from a low income family(parents earn under 30,000) th student will be paid 30 pound a week EMA money which can be used as the student desires. Also students from a low income or single parent household get free school lunches.
I've said it many times before and I will say it again. State-run schools do not provide educations, in fact they provide anything but. They want to turn children into little workers to fit into their slots in an irrational economy. The state doesn't want people who think for themselves, they want people who believe whatever they tell them. The capitalist state has found out that conditioning facilities ("schools") for youth work great in churning out model workers.


Also many(not all) working class children/teenagers(including myself, when i was at school) tend to have a lazy attitude towards there school/homework which usualy ends in poor grades/exam results which finally makes it very difficult to get a decent(stable) paying job.
Of course they have lazy attitudes toward school. School sucks! and we all know it. Do I really need to know conic sections and details about the social life of the dutch in the 17th century to be a happy individual? Of course not! But these schools want to burn out these kids young so they won't rebel later in life. And about the decent paying jobs. We don't want "decent paying jobs"! We want full lives! We don't want to become just another petty-bourgeois dolt with a nice job, nice home and a fast car. The working-class don't want to move up in classes, they want to destroy classes!


It is usually(from my experience) the working class students who fuck around at school try to act the class clown or Mr Hard Man .
Hell, I used to be the class clown, and occasionally still throw out a witty one-liner in the classroom that gets some laughs. I fuck around at school too, and it feels great! It's part of the rebellion against "the man", which for kids tends to be the principal or the mean teacher. Often times it's this "fucking around" or being the "class clown" that helps us humanize and cope with the horrors of school. Doin' shit like fucking around is good for us.


my question is though..Why Is This?
and why do we tend to sympatize with the very people who "dig a hole for themselfs"?
Again, you sound like someone estranged from the working-class. These people aren't "digging a hole for themselves" unless you're talking to a capitalist.

[angus_mor]

Well, ReD_ReBeL, the answer is, quite simply, logically, and obviously, it is the result of being educated in capitalist society. Anything past primary school is practically indoctrination, the kind of busy work presented in this setting works for some, though they are still unstimulated in this environment, even though they can cope with it. As you said yourself, you are among these sluggish students, as was I, however, you still display a love of and desire for knowledge, which most everyone who comes here possesses. I have learned more and studied more on my own scrolling wikipedia, visiting the local library, and debating with my contemporaries than I ever will in these formal educational institutions. The same can be said of the concept of work in capitalist society; it is dull, repetitive, and intellectually deprived, which is a result of being alienated from the product of one's own labor.

[ReD_ReBeL]

The working-class don't want to move up in classes, they want to destroy classes!

This is untrue. Nobody wants to be poor, to struggle to pay bills etc. This is why the majority of NAtional Lottery players are members of the working class.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2006 09:28 pm

The working-class don't want to move up in classes, they want to destroy classes!

This is untrue. Nobody wants to be poor, to struggle to pay bills etc. This is why the majority of NAtional Lottery players are members of the working class.
The destruction of classes lifts people out of poverty, so the working-class people want it.

And about the lottery. Of course most people who play it are working-class! Most people are working-class so it's only natural that the majority of players would be working class. The allure of spending just a few bucks to win millions of dollars is very appealing. Unfortunately, people who play the lottery are stupid and fail to see the reality that they will never win much money. Lotteries are designed to make people lose more money than they win.

[KC]

The destruction of classes lifts people out of poverty, so the working-class people want it.

If they wanted it then capitalism wouldn't exist anymore. It might be in their best interests, but they don't want it...yet.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 10, 2006 09:41 pm

The destruction of classes lifts people out of poverty, so the working-class people want it.

If they wanted it then capitalism wouldn't exist anymore. It might be in their best interests, but they don't want it...yet.
Well, yeah. They just need to be exposed to the ideas.

[red team]

Schools are for teaching people to follow orders and for rationing the best order followers into somewhat better paying jobs. So now, you have these guys who think because they are the best order followers that they are the only ones qualified for doing the job so you have vanity and elitism driving a wedge between sections of workers.

This is especially true now with computers being able to follow complex procedural instructions making manual office work irrelevant. Nobody performs complex calculations by hand anymore because of the possibility of mistakes and you're not proving anything to anybody if a dumb pre-programmed machine can do it.

Now why is it that schools and colleges still teach the manual way of doing things and grade students on that? Something to think about... <_<

[Tekun]

my question is though..Why Is This?
and why do we tend to sympatize with the very people who "dig a hole for themselfs"?


Because they&#39;re our friends and family
And no one wants to see their loved ones oppressed and mistreated
No one "digs a hole for themselves," the system is designed to make most of us fall in regardless of our actions
Yeah, some ppl study and do well, but the majority of us do not, either because we have other likes or just because we aren&#39;t model students
And even if we do well, capitalism is all about a few ruling over the masses
So therefore, even those that do well aren&#39;t guaranteed a spot at the top, nevermind those who don&#39;t do well in school

I don&#39;t like the word lazy, but just because someone doesn&#39;t apply himself to school does not mean that they deserve to be cheated and worked to death
Some of us are not natural students, but rather workers who are dedicated and committed to their job, and this by no means is it an excuse, it is a truth
All ppl regardless of their occupation, deserve to be treated fair and equal

I admit, some ppl goof around at school, but they fail to realize or just choose not to realize that the world outside the school&#39;s window is capitalist, and without an education, society fucks em over due to the nature of capitalism
And that&#39;s what we have to fight, that system that predetermines the class and status of ppl all on account of their grades and titles
I would advise young ppl to apply themselves if that&#39;s their calling, but also to dedicate themselves to abolish this unequal and evil system, so that those in the future could have more choices and freedom
Ppl should be free to do as they please in school, they could choose to study or goof, and this should by no means determine how that person&#39;s life will play out

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Well, yeah. They just need to be exposed to the ideas.

The working people on OI, I&#39;m sure, have been exposed to "the ideas", but almost all of them have stayed in OI.

Perhaps it is partially true. In today&#39;s society, people are exposed by mainstream media and education often anything but revolutionary theory, but still there are many people who know Marx in and out, or at least fairly well, some even better than many so-called "Marxists", and they still reject Marxism and class struggle. Maybe we should not be too quick on the "it&#39;s just because they don&#39;t know what class struggle is about" button..?


I have learned more and studied more on my own scrolling wikipedia, visiting the local library, and debating with my contemporaries than I ever will in these formal educational institutions.

I have similar experiences.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 01:42 am
you never answerd my question of How is the education system focused on the middle class?
where did you ask that?

well simply because its all focused on a middle class life, because the teachers are middle class etc etc

look
such a thing is inevitable in an unequal society, but it does mean that education appeals less to those who aren&#39;t middle class.

in any case
even if its not the case
the rest still stands

[*PRC*Kensei]

should this be moved to opposing ideologies ?

i know sometimes SOME my working class mates can be irrateting & arent to bringht.
So ? they are citizens just like me & i see they are the class who is on the losing side of capitalism, so we have to help them.

and btw..still respect to those who get up at 5 in the morning to go to a factory or laying new roads outside in the cold, work all day doing their demotivating work & get home with all the energy of both mind & body out of them.

If life is hard, you tend to stupit idea&#39;s btw, that why i know so many working class racists. their not bad or evil. their just WRONG. up to us to show the worker men that he should vote for a worker (socialist) party instead for fascists.

And since their is still a long way of improvement for the worker class ahead we need to keep standing behind them.

[Patchd]

Has anyone mentioned grammar schools yet. Don&#39;t know if you have it in the US, but in the UK there are schools which have better reputations, better teaching, better opportunities and are also free. I attended a grammar school, and although they offer better and free education, they are limited mainly to the middle class, although I probably would say that if I didn&#39;t go to a grammar school I probably wouldn&#39;t have become class conscious and would have no care for politics or history (and education as a whole) as such, and no, I&#39;m not from the middle class.

[BreadBros]

ReD_ReBeL, school is a factory. Society as a whole has been transfomed by capitalist production into becoming a function of it, its goal as a whole is to reproduce labor power within the population. School is merely training for the populace&#39;s future labor occupations. Part of school is oriented towards imparting valuable knowledge tools that are later necessary for many jobs (mathematics, reading comprehension, certain basic historical knowledge, etc.) much of the rest (most memorization tasks, testing, discipline) is towards imparting social discipline and the willingness to work. This is the basic function of education, both public and private within the the United States and Europe. People drop out of school becase they recognize the difficulty they will have if, say, they attempt to go to college and what not. The economic determinations at this point usually lean towards the person just starting to work immediately as being the most beneficial, which it might be. Furthermore, many people simply cant afford to continue with college and such or must work to support their family, thats probably the main reason people drop out of high school and college. As for being jerks, well thats more in the psychological field of things, although certain pressures and antagonisms within class society likely lead to people acting like that (feelings of inadequacy for example).

[Global_Justice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 01:42 am
you never answerd my question of How is the education system focused on the middle class?
WTF? well the education system doesn&#39;t tell people that they are oppressed does it? there isn&#39;t a class solidarity lesson in the curriculum.

there&#39;s no middle class IMO. theres people who own things and employ people, and people who get employed. people who rule and tell others what to do, and people who are ruled and get told what to do. the so called &#39;middle class&#39; fall into the latter, there working class people who think they are playing the game but are in the same boat as us.

[Whitten]

Originally posted by FoB+November 11, 2006 02:42 am--> (FoB @ November 11, 2006 02:42 am)
Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 10, 2006 09:41 pm

The destruction of classes lifts people out of poverty, so the working-class people want it.

If they wanted it then capitalism wouldn&#39;t exist anymore. It might be in their best interests, but they don&#39;t want it...yet.
Well, yeah. They just need to be exposed to the ideas. [/b]
Most of those who are exposed are too stupid to realise that t could actually benifit them. There is a reason for this: Any intelligent working class children are elevated to the "privilaged working class" or "middle class", where they would get more money than the average worker, and so where socialism is unlikely to benifit them as much, if at all.


Tekun
No one "digs a hole for themselves," the system is designed to make most of us fall in regardless of our actions

No the system is designed to select the most intelligent and bribe them away from the left.

[bolshevik butcher]

School is for providing the working class with an education to the point that it is nescessary for them to have to be the most productive workers. However of course it is also about making poeple fit into the capitalist system, the ideas present in any education system are the ideas of the ruling class.

A lot of poeple at schools in deprived working class areas, from expieience in schoo, quite understandably see school as somehwere they have to go, where they learn little and are stigmatised often due to their poor academic achievments. However this doesn&#39;t go for all, there are working class people who do well at school.

[Conghaileach]

I suppose Freire&#39;s Pedagogy of the Oppressed (http://www.marxists.org/subject/education/freire/pedagogy/index.htm) remains the definitive text on education as a tool of the oppressors to keep the oppressed in place. Fanon and Pearse wrote about it in terms of colonised countries, and Gramsci approached it from the point of view of cultural hegemony.