CLassroom Propaganda

[MrDoom]

Forgive me if this is in the wrong sention, Learning seemed the most appropriate, but maybe Practice would have been better...

Today in my history class, my teacher forsook the usual lecture on the textbook material and decided to pass out a packet on Veteran's Day and the US Flag. Besides the obvious propaganda pesent in this, we (well, except for me, of course) were also given flags to color in and tape onto our locker doors. Usual classroom propaganda, annoying as hell and irritating to the extreme that my classmates go along with it blindly or apathetic. My teacher does this every year.

Now, I'm not against the average vet, of course; I'm against the imperialist wars they're sent into and the patriotism that deludes the masses into compliance. This is culminated in the symbol of the American flag.

What can I do to convince people to take their flags down from their lockers?

[KC]

Get into a discussion with your teacher about the US's role in past (and present) historical atrocities and their real motives. Also, debunk the idea of the nation. You should read Imagined Communities by Benedict Anderson.

Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_Communities) some info on the book.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2006 08:16 am
Forgive me if this is in the wrong sention, Learning seemed the most appropriate, but maybe Practice would have been better...

Today in my history class, my teacher forsook the usual lecture on the textbook material and decided to pass out a packet on Veteran's Day and the US Flag. Besides the obvious propaganda pesent in this, we (well, except for me, of course) were also given flags to color in and tape onto our locker doors. Usual classroom propaganda, annoying as hell and irritating to the extreme that my classmates go along with it blindly or apathetic. My teacher does this every year.

Now, I'm not against the average vet, of course; I'm against the imperialist wars they're sent into and the patriotism that deludes the masses into compliance. This is culminated in the symbol of the American flag.

What can I do to convince people to take their flags down from their lockers?
Just take them down whenever people aren't looking.

[MrDoom]

Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus [email protected] 10, 2006 03:20 pm

Just take them down whenever people aren't looking.
You know, I thought of that. I wonder how many of them would really care. I've already worked my Red Magic on them, and they know that what the teachers and textbooks say about communism isn't true; and that America isn't as holy as it appears.

On the other hand, if someone from the powers that be notices I would automatically be suspect #1. :ph34r:

I was also thinking of drawing a hammer-and-sickle flag and taping it up on my locker.

Heh heh.


Get into a discussion with your teacher about the US's role in past (and present) historical atrocities and their real motives. Also, debunk the idea of the nation. You should read Imagined Communities by Benedict Anderson.
I've done that in class before; usually by the time I begin to make a point the bell rings or he "moves the class along". He's also incredibly dull on the blind patriotism.

I was thinking more of something on a student-to-student basis; though I could probably use that book for the same purposes.

[BreadBros]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2006 03:26 pm
I was thinking more of something on a student-to-student basis; though I could probably use that book for the same purposes.
Yeah, gaining leeway with your teacher might not be feasible, especially if hes forced to do the Veteran's day stuff by the administration. Go for your peers, just talk to them about American imperialism, about the social structure of the army and how its been used by the elites, etc.

[which doctor]

Convince everyone to tape the flags to their lockers...upside down.

Now that would be more of a statement then just having no flags.

[Clarksist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2006 01:49 pm
Convince everyone to tape the flags to their lockers...upside down.

Now that would be more of a statement then just having no flags.
QFT

Just turn them all upside down and that is quite a statement.

I ended up just dropping out cause of school, but if you don't... that kind of shit happens all the time.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Instead,

put a soviet flag on your locker lol

[Roree]

You could draw hammer and sickle signs on their flags.

[renegade_Storey]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 10, 2006 03:19 pm
Get into a discussion with your teacher about the US's role in past (and present) historical atrocities and their real motives. Also, debunk the idea of the nation.
if he's really dull then he'll find some bullshit way of saying your wrong and your blind friends will believe him because he's the teacher.

I'm in texas and my dad is a 3 war vet (I'm lucky to be on this site right now)
and I was arguing with my teacher in a debate over Che whether Che Guevara was murdered or executed.
she's saying it was an execution. i told he she was wrong and being chained to the floor, shot in the leg and stomach, nearly bleeding to death, starving, covered in rags, and without a trial of any kind is not an execution.

she sent me to the principals office for arguing. I told the principal the whole story (who happens to know only a cup of spits worth of Che) and she agrees with me totaly.

so just tell them about how the government haws been in more dirty shit (the ballot in iraq, the cuban drugs, the murder of che) than we've been told (like america does anything wrong) and maybe they'll understand why your so distressed.

also if they are so ignorant to ignore you, they're a lost cause until they see it for themselves.

[Ander]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 09:19 pm
also if they are so ignorant to ignore you, they're a lost cause until they see it for themselves.
Yes, so they must be shown!

[Lenin's Law]

What to do when the teacher inserts reactionary (but still "mainstream" ie not overtly racist, sexist, etc) propaganda is a tough call. I would say one needs to take it on a class by class basis. If the teacher is a real teacher and allows for debate and dialogue inside the classroom, then by all means take advantage of this and fully debate the issue using the points many here have provided (A great book I think, is Killing Hope by William Blum, it is a pretty through account of the dark side of US foreign policy over the last 50 years)

Some students won't say anything because of fear, some because of genuine apathy and some may actually agree with the teacher. I know that in my History of Cuba class in college several students went up to me after the last day of class and thanked me for raising issues against the reactionary professor (one student called him a Batistiano! lol) It was really unexpected though I had hoped that they would have said something in class but some said they were scared to do so.

That happens but the way I see it, as long as you're giving your peers some alternative point of view, that can only be a good thing. By the way, mind if I ask what grade you are in?

Now, if the teacher doesn't allow or finds a way to discourage debate and dialogue in the classroom, then I would say the best bet is to take it up directly with your fellow classmates. Talk to them in lunch, recess, after school, whenever and explain to them calmly your point of view and what you see wrong with the teacher and his propaganda.

In my experience, unless the teacher does something almost completely indefensable, talking to the administration won't do any good. They will stand by the teacher, particularly if its for something that could be described as "innocent patriotism" or "honoring the troops".

If you just want to toss your flag away or turn it upside down (I personally like the latter) then that can be another more subtle way of showing dissent and turning your flag upside down can't be something you can get in trouble for. Perhaps this will create attention with the student body and if so, another opportunity for you to communicate with them and share your views.

Good luck with whatever decision you make! I like the fact that you are already thinking about ways to dissent and changing the environment around you! :)

[MrDoom]

By the way, mind if I ask what grade you are in?
High school senior. I've more or less been into leftist ideology since middle school; and only since my freshman year have I started to talk to others about it. I went from ignorant self-described anarcho-syndicalist (no offense to our anarchist comrades, ignorance on my part rather. My understanding of Marxism has grown considerably), to a "democratic socialist", until I realized that that was being a communist in denial, and finally settled on nonpartisan, council communism.


Now, if the teacher doesn't allow or finds a way to discourage debate and dialogue in the classroom, then I would say the best bet is to take it up directly with your fellow classmates. Talk to them in lunch, recess, after school, whenever and explain to them calmly your point of view and what you see wrong with the teacher and his propaganda.
My history teacher allows debate and discussion; even if he is a center-right propagandist. Though he usually counters my points with "Well I disagree" and moving the class along.


In my experience, unless the teacher does something almost completely indefensable, talking to the administration won't do any good. They will stand by the teacher, particularly if its for something that could be described as "innocent patriotism" or "honoring the troops".
I know, I&#39;ve been taken out of class a few times (once for giving a left-handed clenched fist, mistaken for a Nazi salute <_<) for refusal to stand for the Pledge, and asked to stand "as a personal favor". I stand just so his conscience shuts up (facing away from the flag), though I&#39;m getting pretty tired of that, even. I think on Monday I&#39;ll just sit again and tell his conscience to fuck off (though a bit more eloquently).

Once last year the school superintendant caught me sitting during the Pledge and spazzed out on me. "Why don&#39;t you move out of the country?&#33;" Rightwing fucker probably doesn&#39;t even know his own legal limits. :rolleyes:

I think the elementray principal&#39;s a cryptofascist as well; whenever I go down to the elementary level on an errand for the school sysadmin, there&#39;s usually some giant hand-drawn poster of him with the childrens&#39; writing idolizing him. :blink:
He always was a douche.


If you just want to toss your flag away or turn it upside down (I personally like the latter) then that can be another more subtle way of showing dissent and turning your flag upside down can&#39;t be something you can get in trouble for. Perhaps this will create attention with the student body and if so, another opportunity for you to communicate with them and share your views.
My teacher didn&#39;t even pass one of the flag papers to me. I&#39;m pretty open about my viewpoints. :lol:

Actually, after originally posting the thread I managed to craft a communist flag (anarcho-syndicalist background with a hammer and sickle and star superimposed) of my own after much furious and painful grinding of a few colored pencils. It&#39;s up there on my locker now; and I&#39;ve suggested to a few that they take their flags down, as the American flag is a symbol of tyranny and imperialism, and actually is OPPOSED to the soldiers and veterans, as they are sent to their deaths in useless and avoidable imperialist wars under the banner, and patriotic delusion.


Good luck with whatever decision you make&#33; I like the fact that you are already thinking about ways to dissent and changing the environment around you&#33; :)
Thank you. I might be young, but doing anything is better than apathy, or voting liberal (or any party, for that matter. Perhaps I should speak to my teacher about his "Extra credit for voting" deal, as it is politically discriminating against conscientious objectors like myself...). Even if only one person has the seed of doubt in the capitalist system cast into their mind, victory is mine.

[renegade_Storey]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 09:54 pm

By the way, mind if I ask what grade you are in?
High school senior. I&#39;ve more or less been into leftist ideology since middle school; and only since my freshman year have I started to talk to others about it. I went from ignorant self-described anarcho-syndicalist (no offense to our anarchist comrades, ignorance on my part rather. My understanding of Marxism has grown considerably), to a "democratic socialist", until I realized that that was being a communist in denial, and finally settled on nonpartisan, council communism.

I know, I&#39;ve been taken out of class a few times (once for giving a left-handed clenched fist, mistaken for a Nazi salute <_<)
yeah im a freshman in texas near forthood base (more like prison camp) and i still don&#39;t stand for the flag. i get sent out all the time. to make it worse i&#39;ve been grounded several times because my dad is an e6 artillary seargent. he pisses me off with his "communism is always evil and wrong." He&#39;s the one that drove me to true communism. He forced me to read on Che, because i thought he was such a badass even before i became comunist, and the more i did the more i thought about how good communism is.

everyone calls me a nazi (even my friends) but thats mostly because im a quarter german and i hate this country. but i just tell them they&#39;re a bunch of voting whores and go about my business.

by the way, it&#39;s good to see another person who doesn&#39;t stand for the flag for a reason other than they&#39;re just lazy. :)

[MrDoom]

Now my teacher tells me if I don&#39;t stand for the flag I have to wait outside the room every day during the recital.

I know this is absolutely illegal and an infringement on my civil rights, and am going to attempt to get my entire (or at least a majority) class to sit tomorrow.

This is BS.

[renegade_Storey]

hear hear. I&#39;m in the computer class now and I didn&#39;t say the pledge (today they won&#39;t do it till 5 pd) i never will again, even if my heart stops.

hasta la victoria siempre&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; :hammer: :redstar: :banner: :AO:

[Anton]

Yeah I remember the 2 years I spent in high school here (Bahamas), they made us pray and sing Jesus songs and other crap everyday. Used to get into a whole heap of shit for refusing to do so (I wasn&#39;t even all that leftist back then it just didn&#39;t make snes to me that it was forced on everybody). One time they almost expelled me for refusing to read the bible in front of some stupid assembly.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

My teacher caught me drawing a hammer and sickle on the table, and congratulated me&#33; He was like..so ur a communist are you, i love reading about Marx........So wherever i am i make a point of drawing a h and s to counter the kkk nd swastikas iv seen around

[Anton]

my Economics lecturer in College *****ed at me for saying somehting communist, about it being "evil" or some shit.
Couple weeks after that she started teachign about Production using quotes form Karl Marx.
When I told her that Karl Marx is essential to communist theory, she told me I must be meaning a different Karl Marx. The ignorance of some people amazes me.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

How the fuck is she teaching economics??????? How can communism be evil if it seeks to give the people who work hard their reward

[Anton]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 08:09 pm
How the fuck is she teaching economics??????? How can communism be evil if it seeks to give the people who work hard their reward
She&#39;s teaching economics because there is a hsortage of every type of lecturer in The Bahamas and when the college brings in foreign lecturers, most of the go nuts with the whole "Bahamas for Bahamians" crap. I think I iwll be leaving this country soon anyway.

I tried to debate with her but she brought it down to shouting at me about God and such crap...

[MrDoom]

Ok, the school principal as well as my teacher are telling me that I either have to stand for the flag or wait outside the classroom during the recital.

I know this is in violation of my 1st and 14th amendment rights. I&#39;ve gotten most of my class to stop standing for the flag in protest of this.

What can I do?

[renegade_Storey]

god suck&#39;s. and if he&#39;s real anyway, and i go to hell, I&#39;m still standing by what I say: "man created god: our life sucks: you suck: we all suck: I hate you all: fuck you: and my personal favorite, victoria o muerte para la revolucion&#33;"

Why is it they always go to "god" whenever we debate over communism? I mean, can&#39;t they come up with something else? It&#39;s getting annoying me to death. I could come up with a hundred ways on where the conversation could go (whether good for me or bad) but nooo00000oooo, they have to go run under god&#39;s wing and pretend they&#39;re all cool and stuff. those pricks.

[MrDoom]

Because their magic wizard defies all logic. Attempting to view the world with reason is obviously a communist trap that must be supressed.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2006 11:33 pm
Ok, the school principal as well as my teacher are telling me that I either have to stand for the flag or wait outside the classroom during the recital.

I know this is in violation of my 1st and 14th amendment rights. I&#39;ve gotten most of my class to stop standing for the flag in protest of this.

What can I do?
Dude, go outside&#33; You know by giving you and your classmates that option, he has already dug his own grave. Get your classmates to go out during the pledge to cut up/shoot the shit or whatever.

[renegade_Storey]

Originally posted by MrDoom+November 13, 2006 09:33 pm--> (MrDoom &#064; November 13, 2006 09:33 pm)I know this is in violation of my 1st and 14th amendment rights. I&#39;ve gotten most of my class to stop standing for the flag in protest of this.[/b]

good job. It&#39;s good that someone else does this. i&#39;ve lived a pretty shelttered-away-from-the-truth life and im only recently understanding communism for my own eyes for the first time, and I never ever saw anyone sit down, other than me, for the flag (living in vernal, utah wasn&#39;t any help either).


[email protected] 13, 2006 09:33 pm
What can I do?

next time your teacher tells you to go out don&#39;t list might work. g2g edit later.

[MrDoom]

I assume "don&#39;t list" means "don&#39;t listen".

I have been "not listening", and because I did not do as the teacher said (stand for the flag), and because he (from his point of view) absolutely has to "go out of normal classroom procedure to tell me to stand", I will be considered insubordinate and disruptive, and will be punished for it with detention and suspensions.

[RevMARKSman]

Perhaps I should speak to my teacher about his "Extra credit for voting" deal, as it is politically discriminating against conscientious objectors like myself...).

Well, just to get the friggin&#39; extra credit without becoming a reformist, do a write-in and vote for Karl Marx, or some other dead guy who would step down and let communism happen without a despot.

In regards to the flag: Sit down until it&#39;s clear that the teacher will take disciplinary action, then let the students know that this violates your 1st and 14th Amendment Rights. You can probably get them to go outside the classroom with you. Who knows what shit you can get done out there while everyone else is chanting the Holy Monotheistic Sieg-Heil to Our (Best) Country&#39;s Flag Which Cannot Be Desecrated.

[MrDoom]

Well, that turned out well.

Despite having support yesterday, it seems my class is full of fucking cowardly traitors who won&#39;t speak against wrongful authority.

[Janus]

One would think that the students would be a bit more skeptical about the US after learning its history in your history class; that is unless your teacher is ignoring those matters.

But the best thing to do is to discuss with your teacher and students and to pass out counter-propaganda to this.

[Janus]

and because I did not do as the teacher said (stand for the flag),
It depends on the state in which you reside. Sometimes it&#39;s required and othertimes it&#39;s not. Or alternatively, you could leave the classroom for the pledge.

[MrDoom]

Heh, I&#39;m being transferred to another class for 1st hour. <_<


But the best thing to do is to discuss with your teacher and students and to pass out counter-propaganda to this.
I&#39;ve almost lost faith in their ability to comprehend anything I could tell them. They&#39;ve got it in their heads that it&#39;s better to not be "disruptive" and risk their own skins.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

It&#39;s not very hard to argue with right-wing high-school teachers -- they&#39;re generally very dumb.

The priciple of education is that teachers tell students facts and the students form opinions. When the teacher begins lying, it&#39;s your job to tell him "no". Then he will say "No, bla bla bla I&#39;m right, you&#39;re wrong." Regardless of whether or not he "wins" the argument, you will have just transformed the educational discourse into a "yes, no" argument, thereby thwarting his cowardly and dishonest "teaching" method.

Make sure to let him know that his BS doesn&#39;t refute your truths. Ex:
Teacher: George Washington fought for freedom
You: He was down with slavery
Teacher: Things were diferent back then
You: Morality isn&#39;t relative

[Joby]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2006 10:26 pm
Instead,

put a soviet flag on your locker lol
haha

That would be great.

The only thing about doing that as a High Schooler is that I imagine it&#39;d make getting a girlfriend a little tougher.

[comradesteele]

Originally posted by Joby+November 15, 2006 02:05 pm--> (Joby @ November 15, 2006 02:05 pm)
[email protected] 11, 2006 10:26 pm
Instead,

put a soviet flag on your locker lol
haha

That would be great.

The only thing about doing that as a High Schooler is that I imagine it&#39;d make getting a girlfriend a little tougher. [/b]
people dig rebels ;)


(gonna use that morality isn&#39;t relative arguemnt)

[Political_Chucky]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2006 07:05 am
[QUOTE=LeftyHenry,November 11, 2006 10:26 pm]

The only thing about doing that as a High Schooler is that I imagine it&#39;d make getting a girlfriend a little tougher.
haha welll....I am pretty open with my politics around girls and such and ever since that, it has attracted this girl I have been dyin to get with for like two years&#33; So hey, political people got the moves too :wub: :P

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Haven&#39;t you ever seen the South Park movie? Girls love guys who are all like political and stuff.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by Dr. [email protected] 17, 2006 01:49 am
Haven&#39;t you ever seen the South Park movie? Girls love guys who are all like political and stuff.
maybe the ugly ones

[An archist]

hehe, never had the shit of not being able to speak out my politics in class. The last year I was in class with abunch of hippies/anti-authoritarian commies too.
The best thing was when we had to find solutions for actual problems in our country: we had great, creative solutions for everything, we completely redefined the country and after class, the teacher came up to us with a slight smile: &#39;I&#39;m guessing you aren&#39;t really conformists are you?" :lol:

[RedKnight]

Originally posted by Joby+November 15, 2006 02:05 pm--> (Joby @ November 15, 2006 02:05 pm)
[email protected] 11, 2006 10:26 pm
Instead,

put a soviet flag on your locker lol
haha

That would be great.

The only thing about doing that as a High Schooler is that I imagine it&#39;d make getting a girlfriend a little tougher. [/b]
Who&#39;d want someone like that for a girlfriend anyway?

[Nemichka]

QUOTE (LeftyHenry @ November 11, 2006 10:26 pm)
Instead,

put a soviet flag on your locker lol


haha

That would be great.

The only thing about doing that as a High Schooler is that I imagine it&#39;d make getting a girlfriend a little tougher.
I have to say.... not true&#33; My boyfriend is a communist and I found him attractive because he was willing to stand up for the things he believed in. I wasn&#39;t an anarchist before I met him, either. Besides, do you really want a girlfriend who is going to find out you are a revolutionary later on and freak out because she didn&#39;t expect that? Haha.
Oh, and marmot. Wrong. I&#39;m rather attractive, if I do say so myself. =)

Anyway, back on topic. I wouldn&#39;t leave this where it is, Mr. Doom. This teacher is obviously a prick who needs to learn something about student&#39;s rights. I suggest anything from a student protest (do you have any other comrades at your school that could help you with this?) to actually complaining to the principle/school board. Once this bastard realizes that you mean business, he&#39;s likely to stop being the bully and allow people their constitutional rights. Fuck him. Just because we don&#39;t like the government of america doesn&#39;t mean that we don&#39;t have rights just like everyone else.
This teacher&#39;s blatant refusal to let you believe what you will is unacceptable. Imagine if we had to say a christian prayer in schools, and a muslim refused, and the teacher sent him or her outside. Can you imagine the shit that would rain down on the teacher?
This shouldn&#39;t be any different.
Don&#39;t let him get away with it.

[Fawkes]

If you get into trouble for not standing up for the pledge, contact your local ACLU.